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Remove the Foundry Wait Time


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On 2017/2/3 at 3:55 AM, Xekrin said:

I'll be honest, didn't read past this part here.  You basically have 3 choices.  Build and wait, Build and rush or buy outright with plat.  3rd option is most expensive, 2nd option not nearly so, 1st option obviously cheapest, in terms of plat cost anyway.  Reverse those costs in terms of time.

You pay for convenience, this is probably the most used stratagem for every free game ever (that wants to make money).  Except most of those other games also allow people to pay for powerful weapons, exclusive powers and hidden advantages.  Those games are commonly labeled pay to win (or p2w).

Warframe is not one of those games, I'll wait and with a smile on my face.

 

 

I would not call rush building "not nearly so expensive", because it is as expensive as the market. While you can pay 35 plats for 3 forma instantly, rushing a forma costs you 10 plats, plus the effort of getting a blueprint. 

Personally, I think building time & rush costs should get a general revise, especially on consumables which are used in large quantities. I can wait a whole day for a catalyst to be built, but 24 hours to build a forma while I'm literally burning dozens of them in the same time? Not okay, especially there's hundreds more are waiting to be built. The build time does not reflect the item's rarity, and the rushing does not provide a balance between the foundry and the market.

And the 1-minute build is kind of pointless as well. If my time is as precious as 1 plat per minute, I'd rather do something useful instead of playing a game. Since the current cost only creates unnecessary inconvenience, I would suggest to either remove the build time or change the rush cost to credits on them, because no sane person would actually rush these things on a daily basis.

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8 hours ago, Net56 said:

When you're showing a screenshot of resources you can easily afford

I played the game way to much. And wouldn't have these resources if I had to use them, you know. That's the thing.

8 hours ago, Net56 said:

DE wouldn't change game mechanics in a way that would completely drive away new players.

Hema? Sibear? Vauban Prime? Nitain, in general?

All of those are unreachable for new players. Plain and simple.

Just keep in mind, a new player is not someone with 1500 hours of play time.

A new player is someone with 50 hours. (as the average total in this game is almost 70 hours).

The ''It's for veterans'' excuse is very weak because of the game's nature and these items stats. All these items are not that good, and players will want to try out things no matter how many other things they have to try.

DE has made more and more grind walls in the form of content. Just think about that when you suggest removing time walls.

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1 hour ago, KamishirasawaKeine said:

I would not call rush building "not nearly so expensive", because it is as expensive as the market. While you can pay 35 plats for 3 forma instantly, rushing a forma costs you 10 plats, plus the effort of getting a blueprint. 

Was thinking more about 3 1/2 days (7 for Equinox), 50 plat to rush the final warframe versus 200+ plat to buy outright.  But yeah some prices are comparably better just to rush.  Which is why some do, which is why it costs plat.  I know 10 plat here, 50 plat there doesn't seem like it matters in terms of 'making money' but it adds up once you consider thousands of people doing it.

1 hour ago, KamishirasawaKeine said:

Personally, I think building time & rush costs should get a general revise

Couldn't agree more, especially the time elapsed versus overall cost conversion ratio.  

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1 hour ago, Flirk2 said:

I played the game way to much. And wouldn't have these resources if I had to use them, you know. That's the thing.

Hema? Sibear? Vauban Prime? Nitain, in general?

All of those are unreachable for new players. Plain and simple.

Just keep in mind, a new player is not someone with 1500 hours of play time.

A new player is someone with 50 hours. (as the average total in this game is almost 70 hours).

The ''It's for veterans'' excuse is very weak because of the game's nature and these items stats. All these items are not that good, and players will want to try out things no matter how many other things they have to try.

DE has made more and more grind walls in the form of content. Just think about that when you suggest removing time walls.

Good, if you're always using your resources that means gains would be set up better.

Something not being immediately reachable by new players isn't the same as driving them away. New players can't access Riven mods or arcanes, either. Who cares? New players would only stop showing up if everything was unreachable or otherwise unfair. DE wouldn't do that; they set up this game so that it has a steady stream of things to reach for. It's not the same as setting 30k cryotic for a single hammer, since that has no chance of deleting a huge portion of the playerbase.

The items don't have to be good, or even viable, they just need to be in the game. DE could have pulled the 5k mutagen thing on the Stug, people would still rage. The "it's for veterans" "excuse" is what half of Warframe is built around. A new player is not someone with 50 hours, a new player is someone with 5. Within 50 hours of getting used to the game, a skilled player could potentially acquire most of what we mentioned except Vauban Prime and the Sibear. In 50 hours, a player has probably decided whether or not he's still going to play the game or put in money. You get familiar with the Foundry well before 50 hours, and farming for even the most basic item, when you're starting from zero, isn't fun.

Yes, I have thought about this. I've thought about the fact that the grind walls in this game have amounted to so much in terms of sheer playtime, that continuing to block any player through a time wall just to pad their game is officially unnecessary. That's why, as you might have noticed, most of this thread hasn't been about the removal's effect on gameplay, or how it might change things. It's been mostly about DE's wallet and exactly how much thinner it might get if this is taken out.

If you want to argue that the grind walls would become so harsh, on so many items, that new players and old players alike would leave in droves, I've already argued that point. I think that's an assumption based on fear, and that we shouldn't assume the worst based on nothing. Yes, DE might lose a little money by taking out time walls. From a single Strawpoll in the absence of actual data by DE, the amount makes up about 10%. DE isn't going to risk 90% of their income to recover 10%, so whatever they do to make up for the time wall won't be that bad. It's likely to take less time than the actual time wall does, and that's what I want implemented.

Edited by Net56
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1 hour ago, Net56 said:

New players can't access Riven mods or arcanes, either.

I have a whole of 4 riven mods after giving away 2 more.

And a whole of 6 arcanes.

Not a single one of them installed.

So I really can't see a problem with not having access to those.

1 hour ago, Net56 said:

I think that's an assumption based on fear, and that we shouldn't assume the worst based on nothing.

Nothing? I'm sorry. Did you try to build a dojo and research everything yourself?

You can't have resource requirements balanced around people with 4k play time on boosters and not completely destroy the experience of a new player with those requirements.

Yes, people that play a lot get a lot of resources. But that's after they have most things already built. When they start, they don't ever have enough. Especially credits, forma and ''alertium'' are a bottleneck for a fresh account. But other resources are a problem as well if you are a new player, play solo to unlock the star chart and don't have the gear to farm yet.

Just think about the Hema debacle. 3 days of research time was not enough of a time wall. So they added an insane resource requirement. The numbers on my ''time machine screen shot'' were just 10x larger than the base. But Hema costs 77 times more to research than Synapse. So instead of 3 gallium for Ash Prime chassis it would be 231. And instead of 15k credits it would cost 1155k credits. It sure won't scare new players...

Oh well, I most likely won't be able to convince you of anything. I know that wait times were never as much of a problem for me as lack of resources, credits and MR locks on gear (getting a Supra bp and only then finding out that I would need 2 more ranks before being allowed to build it was quite annoying...).

Edited by Flirk2
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12 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Nothing? I'm sorry. Did you try to build a dojo and research everything yourself?

You can't have resource requirements balanced around people with 4k play time on boosters and not completely destroy the experience of a new player with those requirements.

Yes, people that play a lot get a lot of resources. But that's after they have most things already built. When they start, they don't ever have enough. Especially credits, forma and ''alertium'' are a bottleneck for a fresh account. But other resources are a problem as well if you are a new player, play solo to unlock the star chart and don't have the gear to farm yet.

Just think about the Hema debacle. 3 days of research time was not enough of a time wall. So they added an insane resource requirement. The numbers on my ''time machine screen shot'' were just 10x larger than the base. But Hema costs 77 times more to research than Synapse. So instead of 3 gallium for Ash Prime chassis it would be 231. And instead of 15k credits it would cost 1155k credits. It sure won't scare new players...

Oh well, I most likely won't be able to convince you of anything. I know that wait times were never as much of a problem for me as lack of resources, credits and MR locks on gear (getting a Supra bp and only then finding out that I would need 2 more ranks before being allowed to build it was quite annoying...).

Yes, I did build my own dojo and I'm researching everything mostly on my own. It's a Ghost Clan called Darkest Critical.

13 hours ago, Net56 said:

New players would only stop showing up if everything was unreachable or otherwise unfair.

My point is that resource requirements would not be increased to the amount that are required in dojos. They wouldn't do that across the board for all items in the game, since no one would play the game anymore. I don't personally have a lot of resources, I have to farm for them all the time, so don't mistake me for a player with millions of credits and hundreds of orokin cells. Even if DE increased the resource costs to make up for a lack of timers, they wouldn't just multiply everything by 10 or more. At worst, they might just double them.

We're not even disagreeing on the point of whether resources or time are worse:

19 hours ago, Net56 said:

My argument is that build is the lowest factor involved in the buying decision, since it's the least inconvenient factor. You're right, the time to build is usually greater than the time needed to farm the materials, but it still usually ends up delaying you by only one day. Beef up one of the other factors, erase the build time, and the weight to buy the item remains the same.

I just don't see why we should put up with both the resource requirements and the time requirements. The resource requirements are here to stay, since they're an integral part of the game. On top of resources, credits, and MR locks, why do we still have to wait whole days after every craft?

- - - - - - -

12 hours ago, CyberWiz said:

also..i dont see any argument why it should be removed. only points against the arguments against the removal

The argument for why it should be removed is very simple: the game is more fun if it's not there. Gameplay flows better if my progress isn't impeded by a time wall at every turn. I would have stated this earlier, but I didn't think I needed to.

If I had any inkling that people thought that 24-hour timers were actually super fun, I would have dropped my argument pretty fast. However, from what I've read so far, it sounds like people are just happy as long as DE is making money. There has to be a way for DE to make money without the time walls on everything.

Edited by Net56
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  • 3 years later...

It's beacuse DE wants people to buy platinum so they can rush the items and get them right away , It's kinda annoying to have to wait 24 hours beacuse it stops you from making alot of progress , I mostly craft weapons only when the weapon im using is too weak 

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On 2017-02-03 at 4:03 AM, Net56 said:

People who buy platinum with cash usually buy it for a specific reason

I bought mine to buy slots. I figure if I spend the price of a good game and its expansion, I'll have enough plat to buy enough Weapon, Riven, Warframe, Companion and Vehicle slots to be comfortable. And that's all I spend plat on!

I think removing or reducing craft time will help retain new players. Let me be clear: there's nothing normal about the way the Foundry works with respect to waiting. In Diablo 3, you could craft all the gems, hellfire rings/amulets, crafted weapons, etc... you wanted basically instantly (if you have the ingredients!). Similarly, you can also transmute weapons instantly (if you have the ingredients). I wouldn't fault a new player for farming Rhino's parts and crafting his three 12 hour parts or 3 day BP for deciding to quit Warframe based on that experience. Seriously, it's lame stuff.

If it helps DE keep the lights on, I can tolerate it (I see you're not convinced it does in OP). But I'm also not going to defend it: It's a lame and awful system.

EDIT: Oh what the heck! This is a necro'd post!?

Edited by nslay
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Daily login rewards and these 24h timers are about habit-forming in the playerbase, its part of the free to play strategy DE decided to be working with. So its a core part of player retention and is very unlikely to change ever.

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On 2017-02-03 at 3:29 AM, Net56 said:

 

"DE wouldn't make as much money. People buy things because they take so long to craft in the Foundry."

I challenge that assumption until DE tells me that themselves. People very rarely Rush the Foundry, partially due to the Rush cost not being 1:1 with the time left on the item. So, the only way DE is making any real money on it is if people are specifically buying their frames and gear with cash to avoid... waiting. Not because the farm for most frames is RNG-based, not because the acquisition of some resources such as Nitain is frustrating or time-consuming to obtain, and not because buying from the store provides a free slot and orokin for the item. But because of the wait time.

I'm more inclined to buy into this theory for frames than I am for weapons, since frames take much longer. However, frames also tend to be more difficult to craft regardless, due to having multiple parts, sometimes even quests, barring you from even starting their timers. But if that's the issue, then keep the wait time on frames and leave the rest of the gear alone. I'm not convinced that DE is making any significant money off of the real-time crafting mechanic, directly or indirectly, when the timer is just one day.

You can “challenge” anything.  DE is telling you “themselves” through past growth and longevity that it works.

Your argument doesn’t hold up.  It is time-and-study proven that people will pay for immediate gratification, especially if seen as fair within the F2P business model in this case.

And micro transactions are as important as Whales buying Prime Accessories.

Jewelers get paid to Sculpt Diamonds.

 

Edited by (PSN)Silverback73
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