Gas + Stealth = Broken, Is this Intended?

[AbhijitSM]

4 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

I don't understand the "omg DE doesnt playtest their own game" argument.
This bug has been in the game for more than three years, yet the playerbase as a collective ^{(as opposed to the small handful of individuals who've known about this for ages)} only figured it out less than six months ago. And even then, it only became truly common knowledge after U19.6.3, when stealth multipliers were changed to no longer disappear on hit while Invisible (meaning that Loki/Ash/Ivara/Naramon could take full advantage of the bug with the press of a button, instead of just Excal/Inaros/etc).

 

If it took tens of millions of players that bloody long to figure out how the interaction worked, is it really reasonable to assume that the <200 devs (who have work to do, and cannot afford to spend hours and hours testing out weirdly-specific builds for the worst element in the game) should've known about it beforehand?

And how do you know that it was "unintended" in the first place ? Also the <200 devs have better knowledge of the algorithms used to define these mechanics/multipliers than millions of players so they should have worked it out in the first place & also seen how it works ? I mean thats what play-testing means right ? 

Edited March 4, 2017 by AbhijitSM

[Ezergile]

@[DE]Taylor I'm not game developer, of cource, but, maybe, just MAYBE, it's time to stop nerfing us? I mean, seriously, if gas+stelath owercome other types of damage, maybe it marks, that other types of damage needs some kind of buff to being able to match with gas+stealth combo? While we get cosistent stream of nerfs, game won't get better. The best example of this thesis was made when update 15.20 was released. Yes, I'm talking about Vivergate and how, because of a single shortcut to farm newly-added Syndicates, DE nerfed Excalibur, Mag and Trinity to the ground. That is not the way to go, as we all, I hope, learned from it. There are people around, who wants to play hours at survival, hundred wawes of defence missions, annihilate hordes of enemies and being actualy able to pull that off. Instead of it, we get nerfs, and our scalings are taken away from us, while enemies have those scales in damage and armor. This leads to point, when building up frames and weapons, putting 4-6 formas in them, shaping our mods and seeking for most devastating combinations means nothing, because enemies and their health\damage\armor scales endlessly, and we are not. That is bad, and that is makes frames and players suffer from twisted duality of the game's face expression. For instance, let's look at Excalibur. While he can shred Corpus in pieces disregard of their lvl (and so, higher lvls only makes difference in case that PLAYER must show some skill of staying alive against storm of increasingly hurting bullets, wich is GOOD), Grineer and Orokin have their armor scales in regards of lvl, and so they can laugh at face of Excalibur, who can't even scratch lvl 100 and more Heavy gunner, if he have no gas+stealth combo to do the job for him. Not the gas+stealth broken itself, but the mentality of the game, wich telling us "Well, I see, You put some time and platinum to make Your builds. Hmm, how about all Your hard work become irrelevant in the late-mid game?". That is not way to go, because we spend time and resources to our builds not to sit in kindergarten of 50-80 lvl.

[.Dictator.]

On 2/3/2017 at 3:28 PM, Xzorn said:

As some players have learned Gas is an unmatched damage type when using melee stealth multipliers.

This has been going on for so long that I've found myself in arguments with other players on whether or not the interaction of stealth multipliers and Gas status procs are actually intended or a bug.

To catch up those who may not know Gas status effects currently dips into Stealth multiplier's x8 bonus damage multiple times with each proc. The initial damage is given x8 damage, the resulting proc is once again increased by stealth and finally the DoT effect is further increased by stealth multipliers. The result is roughly x8, x64 and x512 respectively from a single Gas proc.

I am currently seeking an official response on this interaction as from my perspective it's created a grossly overpowered damage option that undermines the damage system in regards to damage types and faction health types. You simply always pick Gas when you're stealth, regardless of the situation.

A few examples of the damage output achievable solo from stealth and Gas status are below. I say Solo because I've been capable of far greater numbers with a damage buff such as Nova's M-Prime, Roar, ect. These pics are without any damage buffs.

180k Gas AoE Damage:

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A Comparison of Stealth and Non-Stealth number: 7650 Toxic DoT tick increased to 168k

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Gas Toxic DoT on lvl 145 Napalm (98% Damage Reduction)

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It's my opinion that even if this interaction is intended; that it should be removed as I previously stated it undermines the damage system for any stealth capable frame and currently any Naramon users.  I further believe that stealth damage multipliers need a serious look as Gas is not the only situation which takes excess advantage of this mechanic. Still I would appreciate any official response that either Devs or Forum users can point me to.

Just...stop. 

If your going to complain about gas, why aren't you complaining about slash FFS

Why complain about everything in game where it doesn't even matter, it's PVE Just stop

[.Dictator.]

There's literally no point of complaining about Gas in the first place, there's about a million other things that probably aren't "working as intended".

Why can't we have anything nice, it's like the forums are home to a bunch of sadists who like spending 30 minutes shooting one enemy.

[.Dictator.]

On 3/2/2017 at 8:37 PM, Reifnir said:

Stealth multipliers for status procs have been around since what, late 2013/early 2014? 

DE doesn't often react to things that are broken, but they do react (sometimes, at least) to whiners on forums. Thanks to this particular whiner/SJW we're looking at status weapons losing all viability in endgame now, because of the usual "behead first, ask questions later" policy. 

RIP Twin Basolk, Ohma, Zenistar, Mios etc. Because Someone had to open their mouth

[SamuraiPizza]

9 hours ago, Vrgolin said:

Oh do you? Well guess what? OP asked, and TA-freaking-DA! It's getting nerfed.

OP brought it up with the explicit intention of removing it. He didn't ASK if it was intended. 

I asked if slash procs were getting hit too. It's a yes or no answer that none of you people who attacked me seem to understand. That's even more mind numbing. Oh well, I guess I should have expected this given the general type of behaviour on the internet.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Legion216

[shut]

10 hours ago, AbhijitSM said:

And how do you know that it was "unintended" in the first place ?

DETaylor said it himself. See page 1.

10 hours ago, AbhijitSM said:

Also the <200 devs have better knowledge of the algorithms used to define these mechanics/multipliers than millions of players so they should have worked it out in the first place & also seen how it works ? I mean thats what play-testing means right ? 

It's not as if all 200 of those employees did the programming for stealth multiplier interactions. And even if they did, and they all knew the game's damage calculation mechanics on the back of their hand, there's still only <200 of them and they've got other things to focus on.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd totally expect a WF developer to figure out a bugged interaction before an average player does. I just want to emphasize that there will always be a crapton of bugged interactions that slip under the radar (and understandably so); this just happened to be one of them.

Edited March 4, 2017 by SortaRandom

[(PSN)leduanjohan]

15 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

I don't understand the "omg DE doesnt playtest their own game" argument.
This bug has been in the game for more than three years, yet the playerbase as a collective ^{(as opposed to the small handful of individuals who've known about this for ages)} only figured it out less than six months ago. And even then, it only became truly common knowledge after U19.6.3, when stealth multipliers were changed to no longer disappear on hit while Invisible (meaning that Loki/Ash/Ivara/Naramon could take full advantage of the bug with the press of a button, instead of just Excal/Inaros/etc).

 

If it took tens of millions of players that bloody long to figure out how the interaction worked, is it really reasonable to assume that the <200 devs (who have work to do, and cannot afford to spend hours and hours testing out weirdly-specific builds for the worst element in the game) should've known about it beforehand?

Interesting change to invisibility. No wonder they want to nerf stealth multiplier now

Btw, didn't invisibility have this capability a long time ago and got nerfed because it was too op? Why change it back now...

[Dragazer]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)leduanjohan said:

Interesting change to invisibility. No wonder they want to nerf stealth multiplier now

Btw, didn't invisibility have this capability a long time ago and got nerfed because it was too op? Why change it back now...

Invis was always meant to get a multiplier on every hit, but a change to AI messed it up for a long time.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Dragazer

[(XBOX)RAWRSTUFF]

Will fire damage be adjusted? last i check you set something on fire it wastes away fairly quickly

[Dragazer]

Just now, (Xbox One)RAWRSTUFF said:

Will fire damage be adjusted? last i check you set something on fire it wastes away fairly quickly

Every proc that deals damage will be affected

[(XBOX)RAWRSTUFF]

3 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Every proc that deals damage will be affected

Okay, well i also hope that magnetic damage becomes useful for us as well.

[Zin-Azshari]

As we already got to know by now, OP had the best intentions, but failed hard.

In one of his comments, he stated about using Arcanes, and from his vid, I am sure he was using Maiming Strike. Well, if you need such things to make Gas strong (as we saw in your video, there were many enemies he failed in 1 shoting and they were just around level 200 if I got it right), then Gas is ok for most of the playerbase. There as so many players that don't have enough Arcanes or at all, and also don't have Maiming Strike to abuse the Naramon Shadow Step (if they even have the Naramon Shadow Step in the first place).

Both me and some friends like to either play as our own group, or solo. Now, what happens if one of us wants to run Hieracon solo for Endo and relics because the others are offline at the time. Will he run 2-3 excavators and restart because his gear can't really keep up too much or try some of the few things he has access to and go a little longer? Both options are viable, but OP just removed the second one with this thread.

I can understand that he is a veteran and wants some challenge, but what stops him from getting it without hindering other players? I am saying this as a new-ish player (MR 18 but I just recently started to forma and focus on my gear, I tried to reach MR 18 fast so I can use all the Rivens I get or need) who doesn't have Arcanes or the must have mods. Primed Reach? Yea, just R4 because I don't have Endo to max it. Same for many of the Primed mods brough by Baro, I have them, but I lack the Endo and credits. I used to use Secura Lecta for credits, and I had fun trying to see how long I last using that in a survival mission, but, it got nerfed, because it was "abusable". Ok, there's the Index for credits, I don't like it that much, but meh, let's say I'll just do it. Next, Endo? Hieracon is a good spot, maybe using something I have access to to last longer instead of just restarting the mission? Well, the few options I have are soon to get nerfed. How wonderful [/sarcasm]

There is nothing we can do about this now except pray that DE will fix more than this will break. But OP, next time, please think of all the players for whom what you perceive as OP might be the only way to get what they need. Not everyone has Arcanes or Maiming Strike/Argon Scopes or some godly Rivens or the plat to buy them. And don't tell me "why didn't you farm Maiming" or the like, the acolytes spawned in the middle of the night and left before I got home from work, as I didn't had the time to play before I went to work, nor am I going to pay hundreds of plat for them. Just because you have everything you need doesn't mean all of the playerbase has everything. So please, I'm not flaming you or anything, but please, next time, think of all the playerbase, not just the ones who do have everything and have other options, because you might be taking away the few options many players have.

[Xzorn]

@Zin-Azhsari

The point of the video was an example of how the interaction of Gas is a global issue to the Damage system. This is why I did not use Arcanes, I did not use abilities, I did not even use mods and I used a basic Gas weapon build. Yea it had Maiming Strike but it did not have Blood Rush which would have significantly improved it's damage. I could have used other weapon options which would have performed similar if not better and not proc Electric instead of Gas.  I could have actually used an ability.

A person who's played for a week or so could do what I did in that video. It has nothing to do with being a veteran.

I don't have much interest in how powerful a certain frame or weapon is. That would be foolish in a game like Warframe. My interest is the Damage system.

I get challenge in this game often. That's why I'm an endurance runner. 

[Tsardova]

5 hours ago, Xzorn said:

@Zin-Azhsari

The point of the video was an example of how the interaction of Gas is a global issue to the Damage system. This is why I did not use Arcanes, I did not use abilities, I did not even use mods and I used a basic Gas weapon build. Yea it had Maiming Strike but it did not have Blood Rush which would have significantly improved it's damage. I could have used other weapon options which would have performed similar if not better and not proc Electric instead of Gas.  I could have actually used an ability.

A person who's played for a week or so could do what I did in that video. It has nothing to do with being a veteran.

I don't have much interest in how powerful a certain frame or weapon is. That would be foolish in a game like Warframe. My interest is the Damage system.

I get challenge in this game often. That's why I'm an endurance runner. 

That's a single minded way to look at it still though....

 

My workmate loves this game, but she can't invest as much time per week as most other players who we can assume be putting about 45 minutes to an hour or more per play time as a free player. Most we can run with her around is about 12 missions if we rush through them or 1 survival mission. Her progress is much slower than those who do invest in plat/ have the time to get geared enough to get anywhere "endgame" per se.

Yes, gas + stealth finisher is overpowered but it's the few options people like my workmate have in terms of at least "catching up" to most of us who have the luxury of time/ money to invest in this game, especially considering the speedy nature of the game.

I.e. the damage system may be bonked on this combo, but it is on such a reclusive scope of play style compared so many others. I get that a lot of players such as yourself value the challenge factor in survival runs, that much I can respect, and to that you have so many other approach in attaining your fun factor.

Everyone's definition of fun differs, it's not a 1 absolute way to do thing sort of business, just like how this game pretty much is so much fun in terms of letting your creativity seep into making a creative build for the game's arsenal even if it's not optimal in others' eyes. Taking one of the easier albeit probable "endgame" approach from some players like my workmate in relation to their invest-able time into the game out like that seems healthy and good willed for the challenge seeker like yourself but not to others that do prefer an easier time per se.

 

Just putting my two scents on the heat this topic brought on, whatever DE decides to do with stealth finisher + gas, we'll see if we can create a viable endgame melee build aside from crit focused ones.

[Zin-Azshari]

15 hours ago, Xzorn said:

@Zin-Azhsari

The point of the video was an example of how the interaction of Gas is a global issue to the Damage system. This is why I did not use Arcanes, I did not use abilities, I did not even use mods and I used a basic Gas weapon build. Yea it had Maiming Strike but it did not have Blood Rush which would have significantly improved it's damage. I could have used other weapon options which would have performed similar if not better and not proc Electric instead of Gas.  I could have actually used an ability.

A person who's played for a week or so could do what I did in that video. It has nothing to do with being a veteran.

I don't have much interest in how powerful a certain frame or weapon is. That would be foolish in a game like Warframe. My interest is the Damage system.

I get challenge in this game often. That's why I'm an endurance runner. 

The point of the video was to show the interaction between Gas and the Stealth multipliers, but it also showed that it's not that much damage, as you were also dealing Electric procs, and those were dealing damage as well, yet you still weren't one shoting those mobs

.

Also, Maiming Strike forcing critical hits would empower both the Gas damage and the Electric damage, because damage dealing status effects are affected by critical hits. Yes, SL has just a 1.5x multiplier, but the multiplier is there.

 

I can understand that your interest is the damage system, but why not focus on the whole damage system instead of taking away options for some players? Again, I never said that your intentions were bad, but they were poorly taken. As both me and Tsadorva said, Gas was one of the few options never players have to get what they want if they don't have the time or resources to put into the game, or if they don't want to play in parties where they feel useless because they don't have the gear. Have you considered this before making the thread?

[Xzorn]

@Zin-Azhsari

That was the point of my original post. The point of the video was to show how it affects game play because other players were making false claims that the Simulacrum has no validity on the outcome. Maybe I didn't get my point across well but that was it's intent.

Secura Lecta with Maiming Strike is 95% x1.5, that's a x0.475 avg damage multiplier. Lecta with Blood Rush + Maiming + Organ Shatter is 565.3% x2.8 that's a x10.2 avg damage multiplier. The difference is pretty significant.

Players use the stance that it makes Gas an option for melee and that's fine. It's correct but it also removes other options as they're not nearly as good. So where's the win here? Gas as a whole should be improved not validated by an exploit.  I don't have much to say about the new players aspect other than I don't think it fits into a proper line of play progression and judging from some of the claims on this forum like "RIP Ohm, RIP Zenistar" It's seems that there's plenty of Long Term players who don't fully understand the toys they've been playing with.

If it helps any, DE Steve said on his stream (UN-Official?) that he wanted to have a look at status effects as a whole.  Bringing up exploits like this, community outrage, whatever the cause. It may finally lead to something very good for the game.

[Zin-Azshari]

@Xzorn

 

I do agree that there are other options, and people just took the fastest and simplest, that's their choice.

 

The points with RIP Ohma and etc is that as pure elemental weapons, there aren't that many things you can do with them, so they were good Gas carriers. I do agree we need more diversity, and all we can do now is hope that DE will give that diversity instead of just nerfing Gas and/or Stealth, and I do agree that are players who don't fully understand their won gear, as I had a friend who said that Galatine P is the best melee in the game simply because of it's high raw damage.

 

About your damage calculations and average damage outcome, yes, they math is correct, but that's assuming everyone has Maiming Strike, what if they don't have it? Then that damage boost is gone, because what made that combo so strong is exactly that mod. I'm not the only one who didn't had the chance to farm it, and there are others who had the chance but didn't had the luck. As for the Simulacrum, that offers the "perfect conditions", so it's good as a test area, but there are so many variables that the Simulacrum can't reproduce, but that's not a reason to disprove it completely, as it has it's rights. I am sorry I got your point wrong.

 

And regarding new player progression, if the player wants to play solo, or most notably, do bosses solo, as I have some friends like that, there are some that cause problems, so a player wanting better gear/mods or more Endo in that situation will do what he can to get them using his rules, so if he saw that Gas is a good way to kill, he will try that. That was my point about new/low players, that for some, Gas might've been the only option to speed things up a little.

 

For now, all we can do is hope for the best and wish DE the best of luck. My only point with you was that next time you consider about pointing out something is to consider if there are players for whom it's all they can use to keep up. I don't mind if Gas gets nerfed, but maybe a random Joe who can't beat the Raptor for example and wants to do it solo, needs Endo for his mods, which he wants to achieve solo, will be left without an option, which might not make his job easier, depending how things end up.

[Kinjeto]

On 28/02/2017 at 6:28 AM, The_Discussion said:

 

You know that when videographers mention a lot of the stuff that goes on in this community forum. I think quite a few things especially the ignite proc potentially need a look at. (See: Rio's comment at 6:56 and also more important 8:32 of that video)

I'd like to know, if there was a Devstream, where any member of the DE development specified specifically that longitudinal game modes are not considered end-game or an end-game system. Was there ever a comment about raids and quests being more end-game/end-game like systems.

Because GAS has been in Warframe forever and a day. Now as Rio stated and lets be logical and fair here, in an infinite scaling game with levels that can exceed Lv 1000 up to 9999 why shouldn't there be more power creep. It should honour people WHO PUT IN THE TIME and PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GO DO THAT in Interception, Defense, Survival, Excavation or whatever.

We even have leaderboards in-game. It appears to me that there are certain members in this community that don't see long games as [an] form of end-game/system or something to do. So I bring this up again.
 Unless Digital Extremes can actually say for certain that there are going to be more systems (like focus) that enhance long-game modes and power creeping also doing more damage or do things like Blood Rush. Which is fine mind you, where it is at the moment for what it does. Why does this need a nerf, a change or whatever?

I think Rio's video certainly has a lot more importantly high points about what's really going on.
 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Kinjeto

[Voidwielder]

On 2/4/2017 at 3:28 AM, Xzorn said:

As some players have learned Gas is an unmatched damage type when using melee stealth multipliers.

This has been going on for so long that I've found myself in arguments with other players on whether or not the interaction of stealth multipliers and Gas status procs are actually intended or a bug.

To catch up those who may not know Gas status effects currently dips into Stealth multiplier's x8 bonus damage multiple times with each proc. The initial damage is given x8 damage, the resulting proc is once again increased by stealth and finally the DoT effect is further increased by stealth multipliers. The result is roughly x8, x64 and x512 respectively from a single Gas proc.

I am currently seeking an official response on this interaction as from my perspective it's created a grossly overpowered damage option that undermines the damage system in regards to damage types and faction health types. You simply always pick Gas when you're stealth, regardless of the situation.

A few examples of the damage output achievable solo from stealth and Gas status are below. I say Solo because I've been capable of far greater numbers with a damage buff such as Nova's M-Prime, Roar, ect. These pics are without any damage buffs.

180k Gas AoE Damage:

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A Comparison of Stealth and Non-Stealth number: 7650 Toxic DoT tick increased to 168k

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Gas Toxic DoT on lvl 145 Napalm (98% Damage Reduction)

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It's my opinion that even if this interaction is intended; that it should be removed as I previously stated it undermines the damage system for any stealth capable frame and currently any Naramon users.  I further believe that stealth damage multipliers need a serious look as Gas is not the only situation which takes excess advantage of this mechanic. Still I would appreciate any official response that either Devs or Forum users can point me to.

So you are the reason why my Inaros + Gas Zenistar combo is not working (can't kill sh*t) anymore. And yes, no stealth, fully tank, just took advantage of the 1st ability... Ugh, thank man, you did a great job.

[Voidwielder]

Internet problem, sorry

Edited March 27, 2017 by Voidwielder

[Voidwielder]

Again, sorry x2

Edited March 27, 2017 by Voidwielder

[Voidwielder]

Sorry x3 (this is embarrassing)

Edited March 27, 2017 by Voidwielder

[Voidwielder]

On 2/28/2017 at 5:41 PM, cx-dave said:

When is that multishot bug finally going to get fixed and start using more ammo?

Because the latter is called burst fire, duh. There's the reason for it to be called multishot.

[yingji]

On 3/4/2017 at 3:16 PM, DictatorKt07 said:

Why can't we have anything nice, it's like the forums are home to a bunch of sadists who like spending 30 minutes shooting one enemy.

In at least one game company I know, they pay people to make constant 'nerf' threads on competitor game companies' forums. Nerfing fun in your competitions games is one way to make sure you don't fall behind.

It is worth keeping in mind the possible agenda behind otherwise quite bizarre threads calling for nerfs on literally anything that's actually fun in Warframe.

Imma just sayin' ...