Zephyr should be good; a fix thread ::Edit 7th September::

[Birdframe_Prime]

I'm back with this one again people!

::RE-EDIT September 7th:: Due to the recent comments that DE is keeping within the existing design ideas for the frames they're reworking, Zephyr is not likely to get what I wanted out of the Shock and Awe thread, so I thought I'd revive this one instead!

::EDITED:: This OP has been revised as of 16th March in light of many comments and suggestions. Thanks for all your feedback!

Okay, here's the short-and-sweet version of what this thread is about, I'll be clear:

Zephyr should be good. All of her abilities are, on paper alright, alright, by description then (thanks to some people arguing so much), amazing and need to actually live up to that. This is why she's currently the least played frame on PC and has been in the bottom three for the last two years.

This thread is not about the following: 1. Flying. 2. New abilities. 3. Combining existing abilities into a single one to allow for new abilities. Please be aware of this if it's your first time reading, as others have not realised.

Zephyr's 3 years and 8 months old now, released February 5th 2014, and it's definitely time she got some love from DE again.

So it's not technically a rework. This is making her abilities perform optimally, and then maybe adding functions to them that makes the overall function better. Because they should be good, and they aren't.

What this definitely is, is a way for DE to implement changes to the frame that constitute the effects of a rework, without changing the abilities out for new things, and without spending huge amounts of time and effort to actually implement the changes. All of these fixes should be easily achievable with basic additions, trigger action coding, tweaks to AI and number changes.

Let's begin!

First off, Turbulence. This is a really strong ability and only warrants one fix, which is a bug fix as far as I and many others are concerned: While DE have fixed the Hellion rocket problem, where the rockets now get pushed far enough away that they don't damage Zephyr, she still does not currently deflect flame throwers, or to my knowledge the Swarmer Detron. Fix these and the ability functions exactly as it says it should.

Press 3 to turn off ranged damage for a duration? Perfect. The weaknesses of AoE splash damage, Aura procs and Melee damage are legitimate weaknesses to the balance of being able to ignore ranged enemies.

Done. Enough Turbulence, it's a wonderful ability. On to the rest!

Second, Passive Low Gravity. The fan base is divided, many think it's a drawback, many think it's the key to her aerial mobility. While I fall into the latter category, what it certainly is, is incomplete.

Her low gravity is technically due to her light construction making her have increased air resistance, which is why she doesn't really jump higher than others even though she falls slower. Aim Glide is a function that dulls the effects of gravity on a warframe, letting them float on some form of energy field at a slow, steady fall speed. But Zephyr is lighter than other frames, by a lot, and I would like to see this reflected in her movements even more. A longer duration of Aim Glide, slightly improved wall latch and wall run speed.

What divides the fanbase is the landing. Getting down again after being up in the air. And for that I have a solution, but it's in the Tailwind section so yes this will cost energy, but also her mobility will be greatly increased because of it, beyond the level that other frames usually have.

So Turbulence with increased aerial mobility. Two good things right off the bat that a whole bunch of Zephyr players can agree on would be an improvement.

Third... the real meat of this. Let's look at her abilities that are so controversially divisive among the fan base, and see what we can do to fix them.

Why do I say Zephyr's abilities should be good?

1. Tailwind is a fast movement ability that travels in all axis, while also having a bonus function of launching vertically if cast from the ground. It deals low damage, but when cast near enough to an enemy it's a guaranteed effect on them, in some way, whether that's damage, impact procs or even a slash proc, the effect doesn't really matter, just that it's supposed to have one. It also launches high enough that it's supposed to have synergy with Dive Bomb that allows you to deal enough damage with Dive Bomb to warrant casting two abilities instead of just casting Dive Bomb for the knock down.
2. Dive Bomb is the proverbial and mechanical opposite of Tailwind. And it should be so much better in practice than it currently is. A radial knock down for 25 energy that you can scale the damage up based on how high you go? That's actually pretty good, if you're a player that knows how to take advantage of knock down, of instant CC and of the synergy that's supposed to be there between this and Tailwind. In fact, even with the low range, an instant knock down on all enemies within that range? That should be great for a low cost CC cast.
3. And Tornado... oh, poor misguided Tornado... this is supposed to be amazing. You've got four roving Vortex casts that CC and proc Elemental Status on enemies, they have a decent duration and spawn on enemies in range for instant CC, and they pursue enemies quite relentlessly as long as they don't get stuck in corners or on terrain. This, if it was fully functional, optimised for this job, would be so, so good. It falls short due to a litany of AI and deliberate mechanical limitations, but that's my point here... it should be better than it is.

So... what's the problem then? Why aren't they good?

It's because she's stuck in 2014, where the game was different. Let's take a look at things.

Tailwind:

Spoiler

Since the implementation of Parkour 2.0 players have been complaining that it's made Tailwind obsolete. They would be wrong, but that's because there was no allowance in the movement system for the ability to actually fit in.

Tailwind is treated like Slash Dash, where it's a movement ability with damage in a direction, but because it's so low damage, it has to be seen as a movement ability first. This leads to problems when players try to build for things like Jet Stream or the Tonkor, where duration and efficiency can suffer a little, and so a short Tailwind is actually very much the same as a full Bullet Jump. Except Tailwind costs energy and you can't use any of the other movement options with it.

Bullet Jumping plays into our movement, we can double jump and wall cling/run right out of it, it doesn't last as long as a full duration Tailwind, but it takes us nearly as far and it doesn't change animation just because we're on the ground when we use it. Players see Tailwind as an either/or ability to Bullet Jumping, and that's just plain unfortunate. Especially when combined with the fact that Tailwind is an animation-locked momentum causing ability, if you cast at the side of a door, instead of through it, you're stuck. You literally have to lose all of your momentum in order to stop, turn, enter the door and then proceed. Painful when you actually hit above a door, and her passive means you float gently to the floor and lose even more time and speed.

Add to this, the effect that Tailwind has on enemies is incredibly weak. Even at full strength build the damage falls off almost immediately on any longer duration mission, the proc is good, but can't hold up when you give it that paltry amount of damage to proc with, and you can't actually pass through enemies so if you're in a confined space the ability is useless as an escape tactic.

Terrible... That's a lot of holes in an ability that was, at the time of implementing, revolutionary.

Then how can it be better? ::Edited 7th September::

Spoiler

One fix is to turn off the animation lock. Superman pose is all well and good, but it completely locks Zephyr into the movement until the duration is done with no interaction with the rest of the game.

Allowing players to cancel out of Tailwind with a wall cling, or a wall run, would bring in the simple ability to hit a wall, immediately start looking around, and then do anything else you feel like. Cast Tailwind again, shoot things, drop to the floor, run up the wall, anything.

Another is to change the effect on enemies to make it more useful. Change the slash proc to a ragdoll and you solve two issues; one is the way we get stuck on enemies in small spaces, and the other is that people don't aim Tailwind at enemies, ever. Enemies hit by Tailwind are ragdolled, which is an interrupt function and prevents enemies from performing actions, it's not as good as an animation-based effect, but is a very simple programming switch in effect. Enemies are ragdolled in the direction of travel, not outwards, for more reliable zoning and short-term CC. Now, I know that adding things to Tailwind isn't always satisfactory to some people, but as a function a 'drag' style of ragdoll proc is at least thematic and reliable.

A third fix is to make it actually synergise with Dive Bomb. This is one true addition to this ability; casting from the ground (see next point) grants a buff to Dive Bomb that is applicable until you touch the ground again. Parkour and walls don't negate it, you're 'charged' until you either use Dive Bomb or until you land on a walking surface.

Fourth, as pointed out, the movement system is something players get used to as they play the game, and the function of Jumping versus Bullet Jumping is usually embedded in the muscle memory by the time the players become able to afford Zephyr. What I don't want to do is cause those players to lose out, and I don't want new players to be limited as to how their regular muscle memory works either. Zephyr has a good skill ceiling for using Tailwind appropriately, and I've already knocked off much of the drawbacks by removing the animation lock. Thus, Tailwind now activates from anywhere as the current in-air dash function. It's a direct movement boost in the same vein as Bullet Jump and makes for a huge mobility boost. Simply press 1 anywhere at any time to jet in the direction you're aiming in. If you're on the ground and you aim downwards, exactly like Bullet Jump, you jet upwards in a 'reflected' manner (try it with Bullet Jump now, it will use the exact same function, if you're going forwards you still go forwards, but upwards instead of down, and it's something players are used to coming up from the new player experience).

And the final is an addition for mobility; casting at the ground from any point that would have you hit the ground immediately cancels out of Tailwind into normal stand/walk/run/sprint animation. There is still a heavy landing penalty if you just fall and fall and fall to the ground like any other frame, but much like the slide function, where you can press crouch while moving to negate the heavy landing animation, you can now press 1 and simply walk out of it at the bottom. 

People have pointed out in the past that there shouldn't be a button that returns a basic function to a frame because something else has removed it by default, but that's the best we can do without reworking the frame entirely.

I believe this is a much improved way of navigating with Tailwind overall, and will play into the changes for Dive Bomb far easier than my earlier proposal to make the difference between launch and dash trigger off crouching.

So, both a way to cast it as a genuine upgrade to the current cast, making it way better than Bullet Jump, and a reason to cast it on enemies, with the added bonus of a reason to cast it and then use Dive Bomb for more than the basic interaction. There's a bit of Rhino creeping in here, don't you think? Maybe Atlas? A linear ragdoll is too fun an ability to pass up though.

A new Augment idea, thanks to some later comments in this thread:

'Propulsion: Allows the player to extend Tailwind for further by holding the ability button at a small energy cost per second held.' Now why do I, who does not like sustained flight on Zephyr, support this idea? Because it's entirely optional. All it does is allow Zephyr to go further without consistently re-casting, and lets players with a lower duration still have the same kind of distance. If this were given a little light steering while we're at it? I genuinely wouldn't mind that either, because it's optional, not a default to the skill. Make it like the new Plains 'sky' archwing movement, where if you hold the thrusters you have pitch and roll control as well as some wide-turning-circle-cursor-tracking steering. That could work, and would mean that players who are still on the regular tile-sets would be able to build for those, while players on the Plains would have a more fun form of ability-based movement.

We move on to Dive Bomb, everyone knows it's pretty bad, but why?

Spoiler

It's because it isn't mechanically reliable. Knock Down is a Status that has to be programmed in a heirarchy of 'what can interrupt what?' in Warframe. CC casts like Radial Blind, Silence, Maim, Shooting Gallery, Stomp, Divine Spears... all of them, actually, use animations to make their effects happen. This is because Animation can't be interrupted by Status.

We use this in our movement and abilities too, our ability Animations can't be interrupted by Status like knock down, some of our melee animations can't either. What's true for us is true for enemies, and enemies performing an animation can't be knocked down by Dive Bomb. It's that simple.

This wouldn't be so much of a problem, the way most see it, if the range was bigger. That way we could snag a bunch of enemies at once and the proportion of enemies that were in animation would be much lower. You might not get that Heavy Gunner, but you'd get all the trash mobs that were just running at you machete first. CC abilities are usually base-ranged at 20m and higher, meaning that by applying mods they hit the full 50m range and more, and ones that base higher don't even need to max out to hit 50m. A 7m radial CC is terrible, right?

Or, it wouldn't be so bad if the recovery animation wasn't so long, leaving any player that mis-times their Turbulence cast, or doesn't catch all the melee enemies, completely vulnerable. Shortening that animation might be the way forward, right? Maybe if we could actually aim the ability at a point other than vertical we would be able to target specific groups better and catch the ones that weren't using animations, or the ones that weren't going to murder us for having recovery animation.

Then again, it wouldn't matter at all if the damage was buffed to make it a decent kill ability so we actually hurt things with it... Because, let's face it, a melee ground slam does as much effect as Dive Bomb, and doesn't cost energy, so why would you use a Dive Bomb?

Why are all of these things lacking when one or two of them together would make the ability more useful?

Short range, unreliable CC, and terrible damage even with the height. Not fun. If you put on another mod, like Dive Bomb Vortex, or Heavy Impact, the ability works better. But an ability shouldn't need a mod to make it function at base, it should work first, and the augment or mod should adapt it for a different situation.

Let's see what we can do to fix that:  ::Edited 25th October::

Spoiler

I want to address all points. The way to guarantee a knock down is to make it an Animation, it doesn't have to last longer than a regular knock down lasts, but it makes it guaranteed. Any non-boss enemy will be knocked down, every time. Much like Blind or Accelerant spam, it can stun lock enemies if cast over and over, but because knock down is guaranteed and has a recovery for enemies, it won't hurt anything to wait and cast it again only when the enemies get up.

This would also fix most of the recovery animation problem, if it was a little shorter we could be up and killing those downed enemies before they can get up, but it doesn't have to be by much because the enemies are definitely going to be knocked down this time. There won't be a heavy gunner laughing at you because it was doing a ground slam while you were trying to knock it down, and it's targeted you before you can stand again, so you won't have to push that recovery time too short.

For damage, here's a unique concept, let's make this better than a melee ground slam by making it scale with melee weapon mods. Sticking a Primed Pressure Point and some 90% Elemental modifiers on there would easily clean up trash mobs right through to the end of the star chart, it would fall off quickly at higher level, damage always does, but it gives Zephyr a reason to cast it on low levels that wouldn't need the CC of the ability and would instead benefit from just killing them.

::Re-Edit 25th October::

Another option for damage is to put in a secondary multiplier in the damage equation. Currently the damage works off a simple (Height x 0.2) x Minimum Damage. Means that at 15m a normal Strength cast does 15 x 0.2 x 250 = 750 damage. It's a straight multiplier. But what if you adjusted that to add in a second part? How about (Height x 0.1) x (Height x 0.2) x Minimum Damage... That would work out for a normal Strength build at (15 x 0.1) x (15 x 0.2) x 250, which is 1.5 x 3 x 250 = 1125. It would really reward you for getting that height on top of the melee mod scaling the base damage.

Doing some calculations, Dive Bomb with the melee mods and a high Strength could deal a base damage of over 4200, get that same 15m height with the new multiplier? 18,900 damage in the radius. That would be pretty sweet. Possibly over-powered, but still pretty sweet. Without the new multiplier it would still be 12,600 damage, so, you know, pick your balance preference.

And the last is the addition. The synergy with Tailwind. Launching with Tailwind doubles range of the ability. Right now Dive Bomb's range is 7m base range, affected by mods. This means that even if you maximise the range, the biggest area she can affect is 17m from point of impact. If you double the range, it becomes 14m, and the maximum area of effect becomes 35m with mods. This means that, with neutral range build, launching from Tailwind buffs so you can effect almost the same area you normally do with a max range build. Coupled with the guaranteed knock down It would be a CC ability to compete with the other CC abilities.

::Re-Edit 7th September::

Aim, and a ground option. The two actual additions to this ability.

Aiming is simple, when in the air a target reticule appears on the ground up to a limited range away from Zephyr, this range is affected by mods and un-affected by height, so no matter how high or low you are, the reticule can always be moved up to the limit away from you. It will always appear on the ground (or a walking surface), not on a wall or ceiling, which prevents players from using Dive Bomb to actively circumvent the range of Tailwind by casting Dive Bomb at the far wall of a tile and blasting at high speed to there in one cast while it would have taken two or even three Tailwind casts to get there. 

The change allows a fine degree of control over the ability and synergises perfectly with Tailwind and the Tailwind buff to range when casting TW from the ground (doubling the range of Dive Bomb doubles the range of aim too, which can, if using a low duration build that lowers the distance of Tailwind, potentially take the player further than a Tailwind, but without the aerial freedom).

The ground option is a single button 'hop drop' where Zephyr hops forwards a short distance and performs the minimum-damage attack of the in-air cast directly in front of her. A simple ground-slam knock down performed instantly and as an 'engage' move. Low damage, short radius knock down similar to just jumping in the air and pressing 2 as the current cast would do, except without having to jump first. No different, in fact, than jumping in the air and using the aiming reticule that appears to cast on a location a few feet ahead. It's a simple quality-of-life fix that removes the need to press that extra button for the same effect.

Quite a simple fix, right? Guaranteed knock down in a small radius around you for every cast, and damage that scales both off the height and off the melee mods you have equipped. The synergy added gives incentive to use your movement more and think tactically about being on the ground vs in air. Instant CC with a higher potential damage function, way better than it is now, and with a reason to use the 1-2 combo in everyday play.

Now we're cooking with Ember... Let's look at Tornado:

Spoiler

Nearly everyone dislikes this ability. Players that know the potential or just like the chaos still use it, but nearly everyone dislikes Tornado.

It suffers from a similar balance problem to Dive Bomb. The CC is unreliable, but that wouldn't matter if damage were better, and that wouldn't matter if it didn't have so many negative effects on the battlefield...

Tornado is unreliable at best, anti-fun at worst. The first problem is that, even if it spawns on enemies, it then has to chase them down. It does this slowly and in straight lines, while the enemies go around corners and change directions, often running faster than Tornado itself. The second problem is that it wanders off; if you have a long duration it can simply leave the room you're in and interfere with spawns in another room, ruining your enemy flow on survival, interception and defense. The third problem is that you can't shoot through the funnels, enemies that get trapped behind or on top of one are basically invulnerable to guns or line-of-sight abilities, permanently CC'd, but stuck and suspended with no way short of radial damage abilities that bypass objects (like Anti-Matter Drop) that will reliably kill them. The fourth would be that enemies are CC'd for a random amount of time, then scattered, meaning that some enemies are picked up for all of two seconds before being flung away never to be discovered until the ability ends, on any mission mode that relies on killing enemies quickly and efficiently, like survival or exterminate, this is a bad thing. Fifth is that it can't be turned off once you cast it, it lasts as long as Turbulence, so when you want to mod for a long duration Turbulence for survival, you get an unweildy and far, far too long Tornado. Sixth is that the elemental damage type is basically free-for-all, until you hit the Corrosive type, which can't be changed for anything else, due to the 'heirarchy' of damage types.

This could be a great defensive CC cast, with status procs and a bit of damage on top, it can't be because of how unreliable the movement, capture and release of enemies is. Fix these problems and the cast is a good one, leave even one of them, and people will still be annoyed by the ability ad-infinitum.

Tornado was an amazing ability in concept, in practice it falls flat and outright annoys. It needs to be better, and there's a very simple fix: ::Edited 7th September::

Spoiler

Use all the same assets, all the same functions, but curtail the free-roaming into an actual defense ability.

Limit the range from the point of cast, like Tentacle Swarm or Vortex, so when the funnels spawn, they spawn on enemies in range, but then run around capturing all the other enemies inside a circular range with faster movement, and then free roam inside that circular area.

Why does this help? It allows for all the other fixes this ability needs.

Speed increase, for one, and following the navigation mesh for another, so funnels follow enemies on the same routes they walk on at a fast enough speed to actually catch the ones that run away. Capture reliability for another, make every enemy captured be suspended for the same duration, unaffected by mods, and then released upwards (not outwards) so that the ones that survive fall back into range of the cast and, only once they land, can be picked up again. This way enemies are actually released when they are launched, meaning no more enemies stuck to the ceiling. These two combined mean that every enemy in range will be picked up, CC'd for a reliable time, dealt the same number of damage ticks, have the same chance of being proc'd with a status of your choice (give each tick enough chance of proc that enemies are guaranteed at least one, if not two or three), and then thrown in the air for target practice, before being captured all over again.

Allow us to shoot through the funnels, to defend ourselves from things outside the range. That's a given, because we are sick to death of having to wait for the funnels to get out of the way, or for enemies to circle around to the front of a funnel, before we can shoot them, it slows the game and doesn't help anyone, least of all your team.

Add in an off-switch, where pressing 4 again will cancel the ability and allow us to cast it again somewhere else.

Finally, let Zephyr be the only one to adjust the elements on Tornado, we already mod our weapons to use the elements that are best to use against the enemy types we're facing, so shooting the funnels with our weapons will optimise them for damage against those enemies too. We don't want some random public player coming along and changing our Fire, Toxin or Viral funnels into Corrosive just because they accidentally shot a funnel. 

Annnd that's really it. It turns Tornado from a fully free-roaming cast (one that's forced to be limited and thoroughly nerfed to prevent it from being over powered), into a mid-point between Vortex and Tentacle Swarm, with a limited duration heavy CC instead of an until-end-of-cast CC, the same range potentials and Status procs instead of high damage.

Once cast it will CC the entire area of the cast, funnels will always spawn on an enemy within range, and will always quickly capture anything else inside the range, the usual 5m range of pickup means that funnels can also 'accidentally' capture enemies from outside it too. It can be turned off to prevent team annoyance, and here's the real kicker:

When you cast it, you can leave the area and come back to see something glorious... the ability is still there doing its job, it hasn't migrated to the other side of the map. Reliability.

The Augment, Funnel Clouds, is similarly affected with this reliability; you now spawn eight additional funnels, but now all twelve are tiny-nado style, they cannot lift enemies, but (important change) they stagger them, and the current ones do double the damage per tick that the main funnels did. The changed AI would make them seek and impact enemies in fast, direct movements, targeting a new one every time they hit and free-roaming in the range when no targets are available.

With the range-limit you're now surrounded by these little funnels, a field of staggering CC that's in some ways (due to the lack of lift-and-launch making enemies easier to hit) better than the main cast, and in others (due to the lack of reliable suspending of enemies meaning potentially less Elemental procs) a little worse, so it's balanced as a change to the ability.

It would make Defense Zephyr (as a modding separation from Jet Stream Zephyr) a far more desirable build, due to the increased range making the aggressive AI even capable of slowing down/controlling Infested hordes, even if the overall power strength would be lower (a good build for better range puts the power down to 105% from 200% for Jet Stream) the double-damage buff from Funnel Clouds would make up for that.

So you have a defensive, heavy CC that deals enough damage over time, but not too much, long lasting, but with a cancel, and does not actually infringe on the abilities of other frames.

Best of all? Not over powered. Compared to other CC cast 4 abilities it's a good balance of power and duration, the CC is not immediate, but still fast acting, and it procs status effects. Additionally for balance, you have the exact same issue as Turbulence does, if you want to increase the duration, you reduce the range of effect, and if you want to mod for strength you lose the duration. In modding terms it's balanced.

What does this leave us with?

It leaves us with a CC frame that has high survivability, high mobility and low damage, unless modded for damage over survivability. A Zephyr player would be a welcome addition to a squad on mission types where other, more specialised frames usually fit, for example her ability to cast Tornado and Turbulence on a defense pod would mean she was an actual alternative to Frost if nobody remembered to bring one, even if she has to use more energy to get there. 

Zephyr, the currently least played frame in game, would have a kit that would make her a genuinely viable alternative to other frames. She already does well on a variety of mission types, usually solo, but imagine for a change being not just surprised, but actually happy that a Zephyr player had joined a mission with you...

That's my dream, and fixing her kit will do that.

tl;dr

Forget new abilities, forget combining 1 and 2 into a single ability, forget boosting damage on Tornado... Zephyr should be good, and fixing her abilities to work as intended would make her great. DE can use these ideas to fix her without actually fully reworking the frame, and the minimalist approach will have the biggest effect on her game play for the effort taken.

Thanks for reading through everyone!

Edited November 1, 2017 by Thaylien
New ideas!

[(PSN)Anemosylva]

This... so much this. I want to like Zephyr, but just can't in her present state. These simple tweaks would be the perfect remedy.

Thinking on it, has she even been altered in the slightest since her introduction?

Whatever the case, I desperately hope someone from DE takes note of this topic.

Edited February 4, 2017 by (PS4)Anemosylva
Spelling issues

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Excellent! I'll be responding to this in more detail momentarily.

 

The fixes to Tailwind suggested should all be implemented. While Tailwind wouldn't need to offer a buff to DiveBomb with the changes made to DiveBomb, having the incentive to use it in that situation is always a plus. Tailwind suffers an identity crisis and these changes would help a lot of players understand its role a bit better and offer more utility.

I have no true issues with your divebomb idea but I do think not offering it to be aimable is a missed opportunity to make Zephyr even better. You can even make DiveBomb differ from Tailwind in which it wont cast unless aimed at a surface in range or at a particular angle so that players don't mistake using Divebomb as an alternative Rhino Charge. You can also make it so that players have to commit to the Dive Bomb unlike your reworked Tailwind which can have its animation cancelled. 

Guaranteed knockdown and increasing base range from Tailwind is a nice touch.

For Tornado, Zephyr needs to be in control of the funnels elemental property. I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of the Tornado dropping enemies back into the same location. In most cases I look to use tornados to suspend enemy fire but also remove them from threatening range if the opportunity grants it. In this case I think I'd rather have the Tornados hold enemies and status proc them for the time they are held while I mow them down and remove them from the area if they aren't killed. Seems a bit unfair to have them trapped in a vortex. 

Speed increase sounds to be treading on an OP side depending on range. Can't tell without implementation though.

Also an indication of the Tornados effective range should help allow teammates to see where enemies will be removed to if thrown. Something like this:

Just perhaps a small wind ring on to floor to let everyone know where the tornados will patrol. 

Also Nidus has the ability where if you hold his 1 you can see the effective area of where it will be cast. Much yes to this idea on Zephyr's tornado please.

I'm sure I'll add more feedback as time goes on but this is what I thought of from the top of my head.

@Thaylien, what do you think?

Edited February 4, 2017 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

[Birdframe_Prime]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Anemosylva said:

Thinking on it, has she even been altered in the slightest since her introduction?

It's mostly been bug fixes, Turbulence is the most edited ability in Warframe, as far as I read the patch notes. It used to be a flat reduction in chance to hit, which worked up until the enemy scaling got to accuracy so high that the reduction still let enemies hit you every time. After that it was turned into the two-stage inner and outer shield, which also did reduction.

It wasn't until mid 2016 that she actually got the complete immunity from hit-scan and the full redirection of projectiles in a two-stage aura, that worked in a full area around her, including underneath, which is kind of important...

But yeah, there's be no change to Zephyr as to what she does, only fixing it to work better. I want to continue this theme.

[Caelward]

The fact that they've only ever bugfixed her turbulence gets under my skin. I mean, the part where the rest of her has never been touched

Her abilities really aren't up to par with where they should be and I've seen no real hints of it being on DE's radar.

But the one ability they have been working on? Works FANTASTIC. Weird.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

22 hours ago, Thaylien said:

All of her abilities are, on paper, amazing 

 

22 hours ago, Thaylien said:

 

They really are not.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

They really are not.

On paper Zephyr has a crowd control aerial dash, a AoE knockdown, immunity to range attacks, and an enemy seeking CC ability that can have its elemental status altered.

But no, let's respond without supporting arguments and just say she doesn't. 

Do you actually have criticism or feedback? I'd love to debate this.

Edited February 4, 2017 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

[(XBOX)Sneak Attack 65]

Excellent buff idea!

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

3 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

On paper Zephyr has a crowd control aerial dash, a AoE knockdown, immunity to range attacks, and an enemy seeking CC ability that can have its elemental status altered.

But no, let's respond without supporting arguments and just say she doesn't. 

Do you actually have criticism or feedback? I'd love to debate this.

That sure is a small paper you're having here..It's more like a croud controll aerial dash that literally got outclassed by standart movement, AE knockdown with mentioned low range, immunity against ranged attacks with a travel time and a enemy seeking CC ability that does so by knocking enemys across the room and can have its elemental status altered which, as we all know, only lasts so long, what's in conflict with the type of CC and the elemental change mechanic.

 

This is far from nice on paper as the paper also incudes its own stats and the generall envirement, which has changed drasticly since the time she was released.

Edited February 5, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

3 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

That sure is a small paper you're having here..It's more like a croud controll aerial dash that literally got outclassed by standart movement, AE knockdown with mentioned low range, immunity against ranged attacks with a travel time and a enemy seeking CC ability that does so by knocking enemys across the room and can have its elemental status altered which, as we all know, only lasts so long, what's in conflict with the type of CC and the elemental change mechanic.

 

This is far from nice on paper as the paper also incudes its own stats and the generall envirement, which has changed drasticly since the time she was released.

Your criticism fails to identify the entire point of "on paper". 
On paper means that the plan should work well, but in application fails to meet the desired result. 

Your criticism is of Zephyr's application in game, not the thought process behind the moves themselves.

You've identified what Zephyr has issues with (which is what Thaylien described in the OP) but how about you consider leaving actual feedback on the post in regards to its fixes? Or perhaps feedback wasn't your intention at all and I should proceed to ignore your comments as they offer nothing to the discussion?

 

[Caelward]

Well, I'm gonna try to move on from feedback that amounts to "I don't like this and I want you to know".

On Divebomb.

I really like the concept of being able to take a moment to aim your divebomb landing point. It lets you either attempt to smash that group of dudes, or gives you a really quick way of diving into cover. This would give you a greater sense of Air Superiority and Control.

I'd also floated the idea before of changing divebombs movement pattern a bit. This would be done by turning that span of time between the aim and wind-up and the ground impact into a blink effect. A very quick streak of light and a big impact. As it is, the normal ground smash is usually just as quick as divebomb, and this is unfortunate. If they put that blink effect in there it would really add to the sense of impact and power.

Let me re-iterate here. I find it a big negative that divebomb is hardly quicker than the normal melee ground smash that every frame already has and this makes me sad. I think this is another reason why divebomb is so negatively viewed. You already have that ability, but it doesn't cost you energy! An aim and blink would go a long way to differentiating Divebomb from the common ground smash.

On Tailwind.

So my first thought about tailwind was 'what about the extended flight concept'. But then I realized that would make a fantastic augment. Moving on...

I wonder how it might change Tailwind if we changed the conditions of how and why it triggers. The idea first came to mind while thinking about having divebomb become target-able. Imagine if the Tailwind vertical launch only triggered if your cursor was facing the ground. Perhaps at a 45degree angle or sharper. If looking straight ahead or at a shallow angle down you'd skim along the ground. If looking up you'd tailwind dash into the sky and then transition into regular jumping movement when tailwind ended.

The condition of having to look a bit further down isn't hard to fulfill, but might do a bunch to expand on what Tailwind can do. If you pick a movement frame, reducing limitations on how that movement can be used is a potential plus.

If Tailwind required you to be looking downwards to trigger the straight vertical jump, then it would synergize fantastically into an aimed dive-bomb as well. You're basically already looking where you want to go. And if you aren't, the aim time is reduced.

This would make it more similar to Rhino's and Atlas dash attacks, but if you could tailwind from a standing start and it transitioned into jump movement after the duration ended so you could bullet jump, etc afterwards. And if you're looking up its a straight dash into the sky, which will seperate it from the other dash attacks. I think this could help encourage Zephyrs map traversal. Discuss?

Edited February 5, 2017 by Caelward

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

9 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

On paper means that the plan should work well, but in application fails to meet the desired result. 

 

Do you even wiki bro?

The difference between paper and reality is how it works out.

 

A ability that has great range, great damage and great mechanics on paper can still be horrible in reality. The case here is abilitys beein horrible on paper AND in reality.

 

But sure, call your delusions paper. Go ahead. Just make sure people (or devs, more importantly devs.) don't get the impression she is ANY good. No harm making newbies try but it's this toxic impression that she's fine and just needs a little work that, ironic as it is, keeps her from getting reworked.

Edited February 5, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

3 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Do you even wiki bro?

The difference between paper and reality is how it works out.

 

A ability that has great range, great damage and great mechanics on paper can still be horrible in reality. The case here is abilitys beein horrible on paper AND in reality.

 

But sure, call your delusions paper. Go ahead. Just make sure people (or devs, more importantly devs.) don't get the impression she is ANY good. No harm making newbies try but it's this toxic impression that she's fine but... that keeps her from getting reworked.

How do you not understand this simple concept? 

From the ability's description the move should be effective in which, Tailwind should knock down foes, Turbulence should protect from range, tornado should be a good CC move. However the abilities fall short, no one is denying that. That is the point of rework threads, to fix abilities that fall short of the mark. This rework thread wouldn't even exist if it was thought that Zephyr was perfect as is.

You seem to have issues with people who find Zephyr effective. You also seem to refuse to leave feedback for the OP but would prefer to argue with me about whether Zephyr can be good. Until you decide to leave actual feedback don't expect a response from me. 

Oh if you need a demonstration of how effective Zephyr can be, find me in game. I don't mind teaching new players.

 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

2 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

How do you not understand this simple concept? 

From the ability's description the move should be effective in which, Tailwind should knock down foes, Turbulence should protect from range, tornado should be a good CC move. However the abilities fall short, no one is denying that. That is the point of rework threads, to fix abilities that fall short of the mark. This rework thread wouldn't even exist if it was thought that Zephyr was perfect as is.

You seem to have issues with people who find Zephyr effective. You also seem to refuse to leave feedback for the OP but would prefer to argue with me about whether Zephyr can be good. Until you decide to leave actual feedback don't expect a response from me. 

Oh if you need a demonstration of how effective Zephyr can be, find me in game. I don't mind teaching new players.

 

How about tailwind not beeing a regular movement knockoff at all (it could rly just be a passive) and tornados making place for something totally different that's not designed in a time were status didn't have a timewindow and thus made sense to even exist?...

 

What she needs is a full rework. No knockdown or propper enemy tracking could change the completely outdated basedesign her abilitys have >.>

Edited February 5, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Caelward]

3 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

How about tailwind not beeing a regular movement knockoff at all (it could rly just be a passive) and tornados making place for something totally different that's not designed in a time were status didn't have a timewindow and thus made sense to even exist?...

 

What she needs is a full rework. No knockdown or propper enemy tracking could change the completely outdated basedesign her abilitys have >.>

There is a reason Renova and Thaylien are taking this path while taking about the rework.

DE does NOT replace abilities. They do everything within their power to fix the ability that exists. There is only one instance of an ability being outright replaced. And that was on one of the oldest warframes in the game. Excalibur.

So if DE has shown that they are extremely unlikely to actually replace Zephyrs abilities, then lets talk about how to make the existing ones work! This is the point of the conversation. A point that you're refusing to acknowledge.

Really, at this point you aren't adding anything to the conversation. It's like you're sitting there throwing an unnecessary tantrum because you can stand someone having a difference of opinion. You've failed to understand the whole point of the thread and you're standing there yelling at us because you don't want to take a moment to figure out whats actually going on in here.

I understand you're unhappy with Zephyr's current kit. But if you have an axe to grind, I don't see why you have to come in here and raise such a big stink by trying to just shutdown the conversation. Not every frame is going to suit every player. If you don't like the concept of Zephyr's kit now, I doubt you'll like her after DE finally does the work. But, that's OK There are a lot of frames in warframe. You don't have to like every frame because everyone has different ideas of what they enjoy. That variety is healthy. What doesn't suit one person's taste will can end up being a perfect fit for another.

So let me sum it up. DE doesn't replace abilities. They just don't. Look at all past reworks. Because they don't replace abilities, we are stuck with Tailwind, Divebomb and Tornado. Since we are stuck with those abilities, Lets talk about how we'd like them to work.

 

 

Anyways, disagreements aside, @Thaylien, @(PS4)RenovaKunumaru, what do you think of the divebomb and tailwind idea in my previous post?

Edited February 5, 2017 by Caelward

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

11 minutes ago, Caelward said:

There is a reason Renova and Thaylien are taking this path while taking about the rework.

DE does NOT replace abilities. They do everything within their power to fix the ability that exists. There is only one instance of an ability being outright replaced. And that was on one of the oldest warframes in the game. Excalibur.

So if DE has shown that they are extremely unlikely to actually replace Zephyrs abilities, then lets talk about how to make the existing ones work! This is the point of the conversation. A point that you're refusing to acknowledge.

Really, at this point you aren't adding anything to the conversation. It's like you're sitting there throwing an unnecessary tantrum because you can stand someone having a difference of opinion. You've failed to understand the whole point of the thread and you're standing there yelling at us because you don't want to take a moment to figure out whats actually going on in here.

I understand you're unhappy with Zephyr's current kit. But if you have an axe to grind, I don't see why you have to come in here and raise such a big stink by trying to just shutdown the conversation. Not every frame is going to suit every player. If you don't like the concept of Zephyr's kit now, I doubt you'll like her after DE finally does the work. But, that's OK There are a lot of frames in warframe. You don't have to like every frame because everyone has different ideas of what they enjoy. That variety is healthy. What doesn't suit one person's taste will can end up being a perfect fit for another.

So let me sum it up. DE doesn't replace abilities. They just don't. Look at all past reworks. Because they don't replace abilities, we are stuck with Tailwind, Divebomb and Tornado. Since we are stuck with those abilities, Lets talk about how we'd like them to work.

 

 

Anyways, disagreements aside, @Thaylien, @(PS4)RenovaKunumaru, what do you think of the divebomb and tailwind idea in my previous post?

Excalibur

mag

They do, for frames that need it. Zephyr is among them

 

oh wait, you're among the 8 people who constantly claim she's not right?..

[Caelward]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Excalibur

mag

They do, for frames that need it. Zephyr is among them

 

oh wait, you're among the 8 people who constantly claim she's not right?..

WE GET IT, YOU DISAGREE.

Then why are you still here? If you aren't interested in the conversation, then go away and let the people who want to have this talk have it.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

@Caelward I'm on mobile a I can't quote and snip easily. 

I think your idea for dive-bomb is great. It would help if DE changed the animation for dive bomb and Tailwind so they didn't look so similar. Whether it's speed increases or not doesn't really matter to me either way but the shockwave upon impact matters to me a bit more.

As for Tailwind, I don't see the benefit to rearranging the aiming of it. I personally already short hop for straight movement and vertical just grounded. When I Tailwind I usually aim glide to survey the area for the biggest group to effect with my primary and this won't change much with dive bomb. It'll be very seldom where I intent to dive bomb the very location in which I Tailwind from but it's possible. 

Perhaps I'm not understanding your idea enough though.

In regards to Cool D, I'm done responding to that. Not fair to OP to sidetrack the conversation with that. Still refuses to leave feedback to OP after all of that lol. Perhaps when he's eligible to unlock a riven above Mr 14 he'll understand the concept of a rework.

[Caelward]

@(PS4)RenovaKunumaru

Well, aside from dive-bomb synergy. This would allow you to dash from a standing start instead of always launching while land-bound. It would let you choose whether you wanted to dash or launch without having to go airborne. Its a way to expand a bit further on Zephyr's movement options.

[Birdframe_Prime]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Excalibur

mag

They do, for frames that need it. Zephyr is among them

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

What she needs is a full rework. No knockdown or propper enemy tracking could change the completely outdated basedesign her abilitys have >.>

Okay, okay, hold up.

This whole argument is getting silly. While I thought I had explained it adequately, I apologise if I haven't.

So, here's the gist of it, these abilities by description (please forget the phrase 'on paper' because I know the base stats are bad, it was a generic phrase that was in some cases inaccurate) are supposed to be good. The stats and the mechanical execution of the abilities are what hold them back. You claim that her abilities are out-dated, and I simply say 'in what way?'.

Since when is a radial instant soft CC out-dated? Since when is a heavy CC for longer than 30 seconds outdated? Since when is mobility outdated? Since when, in fact, is the ability to literally disable bullets from enemies out-dated? I'm... at a loss to see what you mean. I could understand if you said that they don't do what they say they do (apart from Turbulence, that's a perfect and special cinnamon roll of an ability), that's exactly what I'm saying, that they don't function as they're supposed to. But saying that the thing they're trying to do is a bad ability? Makes no sense.

Anyway. Let's treat this as an actual discussion.

The basic argument you have is that her abilities just flat-out don't work, and should be changed to different abilities, I get that. The argument I'm pitching, and will continue to hold by, is that the abilities just underperform and that fixing this will make her work as a Warframe in pretty much any mission type.

By design, a frame that has high mobility, a passive that aides evasion and promotes vertical movement, an instant radial knock-down CC, a defense that literally turns off enemy bullets, and an ability that constitutes a long duration heavy CC with elemental procs... that frame should be good.

So, that was the theme of this thread, the frame described with these abilities, the lightweight, CC oriented, high mobility frame, that frame should be better than this execution is. Just because it fails to achieve that high ideal, doesn't mean that the design concept is bad.

If DE were to change the frame in the way I've described, and yes I know that's arrogant to say, but with these changes, her abilities that currently don't work, would work, and that would make her a frame to equal any of the others, and be better than before by a tremendous margin.

She doesn't need new abilities, she needs the ones she has to work. That's the key to this whole concept, and I can appreciate it if you don't agree. Say that, make your case, and we can talk about it.

However, if you're just here to answer with flat rejection and no discussion, you're not helping your case and you're not helping DE listen to the player base for suggestions that may actually get her rework done faster and better than if they did it in a vacuum.

So, let's move on.

10 hours ago, Caelward said:

On Divebomb.

I really like the concept of being able to take a moment to aim your divebomb landing point. It lets you either attempt to smash that group of dudes, or gives you a really quick way of diving into cover. This would give you a greater sense of Air Superiority and Control.

Hmm... yes, but wouldn't it also slow down the casting time and prevent it from having that base use of an instant radial knock down from any height? I mean, yes, it would provide a much better sense of where the enemy is, but much like a lot of the problems of in-air combat, it's only situationally useful to her.

As a contrast, how about this; because I love your idea of a blink rather than a full fall animation at the same speed as a ground slam, why not make it have the same aiming mechanic as Nidus' first ability? (Now that I think about it, this may have been what you were getting at... but anyway.) Tapping 2 will make her just instantly cast the ability as she normally does, holding it would put an aiming dot on the ground with a circle of effect to show you a clear guide as to what she's affecting. It has no animation time, and you can release 2 at any time to cast it, and like any of the other abilities it allows you to keep moving and strafing in the air while it's active to do exactly what you wanted, which is aim it better.

This, my friends, leads me on to an inclusion that I've wanted for a long time: this aiming circle could be an easter-egg thing for the Prime variant, where the actual symbol on the ground changes to a Lotus logo for those that notice it. The glee in my mind at this thought is downright childish.

10 hours ago, Caelward said:

On Tailwind.

[...]

Imagine if the Tailwind vertical launch only triggered if your cursor was facing the ground. Perhaps at a 45degree angle or sharper. If looking straight ahead or at a shallow angle down you'd skim along the ground. If looking up you'd tailwind dash into the sky and then transition into regular jumping movement when tailwind ended.

The condition of having to look a bit further down isn't hard to fulfill, but might do a bunch to expand on what Tailwind can do. If you pick a movement frame, reducing limitations on how that movement can be used is a potential plus.

If Tailwind required you to be looking downwards to trigger the straight vertical jump, then it would synergize fantastically into an aimed dive-bomb as well. You're basically already looking where you want to go.

This, good man, I love. I already mentioned about making Tailwind tie in to the movement system better, so this idea is going straight into the original post.

42 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

It'll be very seldom where I intent to dive bomb the very location in which I Tailwind from but it's possible. 

This is something I feel I have to point out; since I'm hoping that the launch function will trigger the buff to Dive Bomb, this is exactly the kind of function you'll be using it for. But you wouldn't have to use it for that if you didn't want to; the buff I'm suggesting would allow a player to use the launch pretty much as an when they need to, and as long as they didn't touch the floor it would stay there, primed and ready, until they then used Dive Bomb. So you could, as you like to do, leave the ground early, survey the area, and choose a place to come down hard, but if you wanted to make use of the buff, instead of a bullet jump you would use the launch function to put the buff in place.

Does that make sense?

I mean, I just really like this idea of making her Tailwind tie in to the movement system more, and since things like Bullet Jump are already keyed to do this same function, more or less, it makes using her that much more intuitive.

If we really wanted to get technical, we could take this even another step further: How about when you press 1, it simply goes where you aim it or reflects like a regular Jump would so you can cast Tailwind while looking down and it works exactly the same way that the regularJump function does, no launching at all. But, if you were sliding or crouching, just like the Bullet Jump mechanic, you would Launch! So exactly like a Bullet Jump, using the same exact functions that we use for the movement system, it becomes contextual.

Looking anywhere and casting Tailwind makes you Tailwind from your starting point to the direction you're going, however if you're on the ground looking down, it sends you upwards in the same direction, but opposite angle to your cursor. Sliding or crouching, however, turns a regular jump into a Bullet Jump, and players are used to that function in game, they learn it with the movement system. Sliding an pressing 1 Launches the player in exactly the same function, and activates the buff to Dive Bomb and so will be done as a deliberate function of the ability that a player can choose to use or not use depending on their movement.

How's that for an idea?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

3 hours ago, Caelward said:

WE GET IT, YOU DISAGREE.

Then why are you still here? If you aren't interested in the conversation, then go away and let the people who want to have this talk have it.

There's been a litteral sh**ton of zephyr threads past her expiration date that have allways been invadet and crushed by zephyr mains that wanted to maintain her current state with nothing but minor buffs ya know. Bad position to be in to be calling inconvinice upon someone.

Edited February 5, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Azzaruth]

I enjoy this new thread of yours, and pretty much agree with everything. However, I must disagree with the ground version of tailwind, it's a bit situational, but a one handed long jump is pretty useful. But yes, it does need a few tweaks to it. How about something like a +100 glide/wall latch boost until Zephyr touches the ground? And for the air version, a combo counter for each tailwind used so that each use in the air costs a bit less energy like with Valkyr's ripline? Also I had thought about the AoE range increase of divebmomb you mentioned if used after tailwind a bit, knockdowns are okay, but a bit weak compared to most CC, and due to how Zephyr's turbulence works she wants to stay away from the enemies. So I've been thinking, what if Divebomb makes a shockwave moa like AoE that repels enemies touching the ring if used after the ground version of tailwind? And the reverse if using the augment. This would give a somewhat unique control mechanic that can work as an area denial skill, which is fairly valuable in certain types of maps.

[Caelward]

Tying her tailwind closer to regular movement would certainly help to improve the learning curve on Zephyr. Tailwind is a hard ability to appreciate and its certainly true than in its current form its hard to say its better than a regular bullet jump. It has it's uses, but its only a little better in practice, and that's only if you even feel the need to learn how it actually works. As it is, most people don't feel that need. This tends to end the conversation and I can't blame anyone for not wanting to get into it.

As far as turbulence encouraging distance from melee, I think that's conditional. In gunplay, sure, it makes you want to stay distant and active. On the flip side, practical immunity to bullets also encourages melee combat. Zephyr is really fun to melee with because she's already smashing the people who can hit her in the face.

That Aoe ring that knocks away in vanilla or pulls in when augmented is an interesting angle though, I like that one.

[Azzaruth]

3 minutes ago, Caelward said:

Tying her tailwind closer to regular movement would certainly help to improve the learning curve on Zephyr. Tailwind is a hard ability to appreciate and its certainly true than in its current form its hard to say its better than a regular bullet jump. It has it's uses, but its only a little better in practice, and that's only if you even feel the need to learn how it actually works. As it is, most people don't feel that need. This tends to end the conversation and I can't blame anyone for not wanting to get into it.

As far as turbulence encouraging distance from melee, I think that's conditional. In gunplay, sure, it makes you want to stay distant and active. On the flip side, practical immunity to bullets also encourages melee combat. Zephyr is really fun to melee with because she's already smashing the people who can hit her in the face.

That Aoe ring that knocks away in vanilla or pulls in when augmented is an interesting angle though, I like that one.

Maybe a bit, but trying to play Zephyr without tailwind is like trying to drive a car without breaks. Sure people keep comparing it to bullet jump, but she really needs those extra bullet jumps to keep her in control and maintain momentum. It's a pretty simplistic ability, but one that is far too overlooked honestly.

That is true, I mainly play as a melee Zephyr, but even with Turbulence up, she is a bit of a hit and runner. You don't really want her to stay in melee range too long as bullets are a bit more accurate at that range and a lot of ranged units also like to thwack her in the face with their guns or ground slams, while Zephyr herself isn't quite tissue, but she ain't sturdy either. But yes, melee is completely viable for her so long as you do it fast enough.

Yes, though I wouldn't say a knockback, more like repelling Bastille mod, but with an expanding ring, but the initial divebomb would do a knockdown as well.

[Caelward]

10 hours ago, Zephyr-Prime said:

Maybe a bit, but trying to play Zephyr without tailwind is like trying to drive a car without breaks. Sure people keep comparing it to bullet jump, but she really needs those extra bullet jumps to keep her in control and maintain momentum. It's a pretty simplistic ability, but one that is far too overlooked honestly.

That is true, I mainly play as a melee Zephyr, but even with Turbulence up, she is a bit of a hit and runner. You don't really want her to stay in melee range too long as bullets are a bit more accurate at that range and a lot of ranged units also like to thwack her in the face with their guns or ground slams, while Zephyr herself isn't quite tissue, but she ain't sturdy either. But yes, melee is completely viable for her so long as you do it fast enough.

Yes, though I wouldn't say a knockback, more like repelling Bastille mod, but with an expanding ring, but the initial divebomb would do a knockdown as well.

In response to point 1. Yeah I agree, I use tailwind all the time. I'm just saying that the common perception is not 'well i just gotta learn it'. The common perception seems to be 'there is absolutely no point, therefore, I wont'. And I can see where they're coming from. With Zephyrs under performing kit, she is really failing to sell herself to many players, new and old. I figured that meshing it closer to the movement system would not just make tailwind more flexible. It would hopefully help people trying this version of Zephyr out for the first time to learn and love tailwind.

On point 2. Turbulence is friendly enough that you can basically use it per your own preference. When the going gets tough, I tend to go melee over any other weapon and tend to have more success with her in that regard. I'm almost always using Jat Kittag however which is fantastic for ragdolling enemies with blast procs. It's basically melee CC. So this is just my experience.

As for point 3, I'm more talking about the effect traveling in a visible ring. Whether it staggers, knocksdown or ragdolls is another thing. I'm just saying I like the idea of stealing the expanding ring visual cue that enemies like the shockwave moa have except with a wind design.