Zephyr should be good; a fix thread ::Edit 7th September::

[Karav]

28 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Oh, don't get me wrong, current Zephyr out-manuevers pretty much everything except a full-speed Volt and a Warp Nova, as long as you know what you're doing with her ^^

That doesn't stop me from wanting to lower that entry-level skill to allow more and more players to get up to the same speed as I can. Hence, why I'm suggesting adjusting the system to allow for better integration of movement into the ability.

The problem is that most players don't know what they're doing, and are less mobile with Zephyr than they could be. To get around that fast, you need to have intimate map knowledge, a thorough understanding of how Zephyr's abilities interact with the parkour system, and excellent mechanical skills. On top of that, you have to balance energy consumption (or have a monster efficiency build) to actually accomplish anything. I rarely have enough energy to take advantage of her mobility as almost all of it goes to turbulence to stay alive.

Maybe it's just me being greedy, but a *slightly* larger energy pool would be nice.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

9 minutes ago, Karav said:

The problem is that most players don't know what they're doing, and are less mobile with Zephyr than they could

[Azamagon]

8 hours ago, Karav said:

1) Could you elaborate? Does your trajectory follow the cursor? Is it a straight line with some basic strafing? How sharp a turn (if any) will you be able to execute?

2) Some have suggested a tap for straight down, hold for an aimed ground pound.

1) Well, I was thinking that it follows your cursor, yes. But I dunno the details specifically, such as if the steering would be "sluggish" (so you can't turn sharply) or not. Just some degree of turning would be neat, to allow her some smooth aerial movement.

2) Yup, that's what I was gonna write first, actually, but editted it to make it simpler. Either way, aimable Dive Bomb is something I think should be heavily thought about, as using Dive Bomb in narrow hallways would remain tricky otherwise.

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

1) Hey Azamagon, welcome back ^^ This might be a little far, I'm all for making it more interactive, but it is still a movement cast. You can't reload or perform other actions while Slash Dash, Avalanche and Rhino Charge are used, so I think the same rules would apply.

Otherwise, fairly good thoughts.

2) Not sure about moving the launch to Dive Bomb, although in some ways this really does make sense... I might re-consider later, but I'm putting myself on the 'no' side of this option for now. Mostly to preserve as much of the original abilities as possible and prevent the need for more coding by DE.

3) Also would like an explanation here. I previously thought this would be a good idea, but Tailwind is such a fast movement that steering really isn't needed. I mean, yes, extendable would be a nice addition, but considering how easy it is to bounce out of with the other changes made, there really isn't a reason to have more than a slight trajectory change function to it.

4) This is something I considered in the original post, but discarded because even Ragdoll can be interrupted in game by certain conditions. A fast Animation would guarantee the effect far more certainly and could also be adapted to the other functions, such as the Dive Bomb Vortex mod, or later buffs such as a longer-duration knock down effect far more easily than Ragdoll can.

5) With how mobile she is in the air? What would be the need? You can travel huge distances with a simple aim glide, and even just tapping the roll button in the air will move you quite a way. Keeping it straight down will mean less need for coding, again, and the aiming function can also be keyed to the character's Z angle mapping in relation to the terrain, so needs no effort to implement.

1) The point is to make it focus on being smooth and to make it a REALLY good mobility tool, allowing her to shoot bombard and shoot etc, easily from the air.
In contrast, Slash Dash is a good damage tool, and Rhino Charge is both a good CC and mobility tool. So, I thought that making it smooth like this, heavily focusing on giving her very graceful mobility with this ability, sounds fun and useful, not to mention making it feel more unique.
Just as a comparison: Rhino is heavy, so his charge is brutal and rugged. But Zephyr is light and graceful, so her "charge" should be so too.
Also... Avalanche? That has Frost's ulti got to do with this? Oo

2) The thought was userfriendlyness. Tailwind is for aimed mobility, Dive Bomb (or Gale Force) is for going up or down. Just make it as simple as possible, is usually a good idea :)

3) Well, see my response to Karav. Also, added thoughts:
What if her Tailwind was slower? Or, at least the EXTENDED Tailwind was slower (meaning, the initial cast is bursty, but if held down, the continued flight forward would then decelerate to a slower pace, allowing for that graceful and smooth control).

4) Make it FORCED ragdoll? ;)

5) Yes, she is mobile, IF she has the space to remain in the air. But many tilesets are rather narrow and low in ceiling, and thus not very friendly to air-mobility. Thus, allowing Dive Bomb to, in some degree, be aimable would make it more userfriendly in far more places. Especially so since the base radius is rather low, and a big part of its range was suggested to be boosted with her starting it up high. I think you get the point. So, some aimability would not only make it smoother, it would also (personal opinion here) make far more fun to use in most (if not all) tilesets.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

21 hours ago, Azamagon said:

1) Well, I was thinking that it follows your cursor, yes. But I dunno the details specifically, such as if the steering would be "sluggish" (so you can't turn sharply) or not. Just some degree of turning would be neat, to allow her some smooth aerial movement.

2) Yup, that's what I was gonna write first, actually, but editted it to make it simpler. Either way, aimable Dive Bomb is something I think should be heavily thought about, as using Dive Bomb in narrow hallways would remain tricky otherwise.

1) The point is to make it focus on being smooth and to make it a REALLY good mobility tool, allowing her to shoot bombard and shoot etc, easily from the air.
In contrast, Slash Dash is a good damage tool, and Rhino Charge is both a good CC and mobility tool. So, I thought that making it smooth like this, heavily focusing on giving her very graceful mobility with this ability, sounds fun and useful, not to mention making it feel more unique.
Just as a comparison: Rhino is heavy, so his charge is brutal and rugged. But Zephyr is light and graceful, so her "charge" should be so too.
Also... Avalanche? That has Frost's ulti got to do with this? Oo

2) The thought was userfriendlyness. Tailwind is for aimed mobility, Dive Bomb (or Gale Force) is for going up or down. Just make it as simple as possible, is usually a good idea :)

3) Well, see my response to Karav. Also, added thoughts:
What if her Tailwind was slower? Or, at least the EXTENDED Tailwind was slower (meaning, the initial cast is bursty, but if held down, the continued flight forward would then decelerate to a slower pace, allowing for that graceful and smooth control).

4) Make it FORCED ragdoll? ;)

5) Yes, she is mobile, IF she has the space to remain in the air. But many tilesets are rather narrow and low in ceiling, and thus not very friendly to air-mobility. Thus, allowing Dive Bomb to, in some degree, be aimable would make it more userfriendly in far more places. Especially so since the base radius is rather low, and a big part of its range was suggested to be boosted with her starting it up high. I think you get the point. So, some aimability would not only make it smoother, it would also (personal opinion here) make far more fun to use in most (if not all) tilesets.

 I can't argue against my own thread ideas lol

We all have to remember to make proper distinctions when referring to ragdoll and knockdowns. Tailwind already causes knockdown in its current state. It just doesn't cause any effect to enemies in Zephyrs path, only in her wake. Perhaps Tailwind should ragdoll and Divebomb should knockdown giving them both different distinctive properties. Unfortunately making the similarities between Rhino charge and Tailwind all the more evident. You need enemies not to be ragdolled for Divebomb Vortex.

Also, @Thaylien Steering Zephyr could work a lot better now that Tailwind is cancellable from this thread. Also if DE would fix the #TailwindGravityBug.  I wont bring this into this thread though. Probably time I resurrected mine.

[Ernestasx]

@Thaylien

I love your ideas! In this game i am drawn to the so callee underdog frames because my 2 favorite ones are indeed Zephyr and then Hydroid. Hydroid is a bit too slow on animations, but overall he rocks imo and has his place as a pal of Nekros in the world of farm.

But when i felt Zephyr's kit i knew she will never be strong unless she gets some buffs and fixes. I am so glad you are not one of the people who want to straight up rework Zephyr. This warframe is unique, but has so many drawbacks that are unreliable cc, weak damage and only good mobility and survivability, but that's also something else...

Zephyr deserves to be viable and surely everyone can agree! Hope all of your best ideas (they all seem good cause i carefully read everything) are heard by DE!

Edited February 15, 2017 by Ernestasx

[Karav]

On 2/14/2017 at 4:13 PM, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Steering Zephyr could work a lot better now that Tailwind is cancellable from this thread. Also if DE would fix the #TailwindGravityBug.  I wont bring this into this thread though. Probably time I resurrected mine.

Someone said tailwind could be canceled if you press [shift] before the duration ends. I think you may be correct: Being able to cancel tailwind into a parkour movement might just be enough to warrant a (slightly) controllable tailwind. It would also go a long way towards separating it from your bullet jump.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Seeing as how the Limbo Rework broke conventional rules I guess we should just go crazy here? No defense in not going all out with ideas now. There will be posts soon saying "Give Hydroid/Zephyr/Oberon the Limbo treatment".

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

"Give Hydroid/Zephyr/Oberon the Limbo treatment".

Heh, that's exactly the kind of thing I wanted to head-off with this thread...

Limbo didn't work so well as a frame because he had his 'element', the Rift, and three of his abilities were all dedicated to getting into and out of it in different ways. With his own shift into the Rift plane sorted out, he can focus on putting two abilities to work on what he does there instead of only one.

Zephyr and Hydroid don't suffer from that problem; with them they have their element and interact with it all the time, they just don't actually use it to best effect.

Annnnd... I'll be perfectly honest, the entire reason I suggested the change in how Tailwind works (basically an energy-powered full upgrade to the regular movement system) was in anticipation of this.

People using movement instead of abilities to cast Warframe powers is something that would definitely open up new posibilities on other frames, but Zephyr has movement casts, so I wanted to use the blending of movement system with her abilities to say 'this is actually still worth being an ability, because it's better in every way than basic warframe movement.'

As another point of thought; given that they really have done well (at least in concept, the details will need tweaking) with Limbo's rework, if they could be able to work additively to Zephyr in the same way... not necessarily saying that I want Tailwind to switch to her basic mode of movement, but just... in the same amount of ethics and thought? I don't think I'd be disappointed at all.

[yles9056]

Limbo's new Rift Dash opens a new door. It's an ability that integrates with maneuver system. I think Zephyr could use something like that.

Here''s my idea for Zephyr:

Zephyr can extend jump and bullet jump by holding space bar.

Vertical jump: If Zephyr jump from the ground or in the air with space bar holding down, she will keep ascending until you release space bar.

Bullet jump: If Zephyr performs bullet jump with space bar holding down, she will keep flying forward until you release space bar.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, yles9056 said:

Limbo's new Rift Dash opens a new door.

That it does. Although... what door does it open for Zephyr?

I'm not being rude, I'm genuinely asking. Your ideas actually are quite good, I'll admit. They wouldn't quite fit in with the changes I'm proposing here, but on objective assessment they're perfectly relevant ideas that would make her better.

I'm purely asking what Limbo's dash-to-enter-and-leave Rift mechanic will do for Zephyr, who doesn't have two 'states' to her gameplay.

If I were to speculate, I could see a bit of a rework there for Hydroid, where he has two states of play; liquid or solid. The only one that would make themed sense for Zephyr, though, is a mode that I've argued for a long time would hinder her, not help.

[yles9056]

11 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

I'm purely asking what Limbo's dash-to-enter-and-leave Rift mechanic will do for Zephyr, who doesn't have two 'states' to her gameplay.

It's not about having two states. Rift dash is the first ability that change roll to something else. The ability is integrated into basic maneuver. You don't press ability button to cast it. Instead, you press shift to cast it. We will probably get more of this type of abilities in the future.

Zephyr's Tailwind can be modified into an ability that change how parkour maneuver work. That's what I mean.

Edited February 18, 2017 by yles9056

[Birdframe_Prime]

Just now, yles9056 said:

Zephyr's Tailwind can be an ability that change how parkour maneuver work. That's what I mean.

Yeah, that's what I meant when I said that it wouldn't fit in with my suggestions here, but it's not a bad option.

The difference I'm seeing here is that what you're suggesting is either a passive buff, where her basic movement triggers a buff to jump and bullet jump, or you're suggesting a complete removal of the functions for bullet jump and makes it a full ability instead.

In both cases, while they are good thoughts, they take away options that she has now, and work for her now, and replace them with things that we're not sure would work.

What I mean is that while Limbo's dash is now a Rift mechanic, it's still a dodge mechanic, I wouldn't want to actually replace Zephyr's jump and bullet jump because they're the basic forms of movement in game and have their own functions, and what I've suggested in this thread is a way to ensure that Tailwind is actually worth being a cast for energy and not relegated to pure movement.

As I said, I don't think these are bad, just bad for what this thread is trying to do. I'll need some rather well-planned discussion and convincing arguments before I see the benefits of those suggestions in this particular case.

But feel free to show us a full rework idea in a new thread if you want, I'd read it and give full feedback if I have time.

[yles9056]

Tailwind is used for mobility. I personally prefer making it a passive rather than an ability. But that's just my opinion.

Edited February 18, 2017 by yles9056

[Azamagon]

@Thaylien Well, what yles9056 suggested here:

4 hours ago, yles9056 said:

Limbo's new Rift Dash opens a new door. It's an ability that integrates with maneuver system. I think Zephyr could use something like that.

Here''s my idea for Zephyr:

Zephyr can extend jump and bullet jump by holding space bar.

Vertical jump: If Zephyr jump from the ground or in the air with space bar holding down, she will keep ascending until you release space bar.

Bullet jump: If Zephyr performs bullet jump with space bar holding down, she will keep flying forward until you release space bar.

... allows her to have a new ability instead of Tailwind. We are currently trying REALLY hard to make Tailwind worthwhile as an ability, but making it a parkour-aiding passive seems like a more logical approach (and makes the passive feel really strong and unique too).

As for a new ability, it could be something you can use from the skies that doesn't take you down (which is Dive Bomb's niche). Think pressure bombs, or stuff like auto-seeking slashing wind projectiles. Something that doesn't need lots of aiming (which imo is what Dive Bomb is more for, being more powerful requring more aim). I dunno, just go crazy.

I'll give more thought on what would actually be a helpful new ability for her, something that actually brings something NEW to her kit. She has damage and quick CC with Dive Bomb, defense with Turbulence and defensive CC with Tornado. What would truly aid all that?

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

14 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

@Thaylien Well, what yles9056 suggested here:

... allows her to have a new ability instead of Tailwind. We are currently trying REALLY hard to make Tailwind worthwhile as an ability, but making it a parkour-aiding passive seems like a more logical approach (and makes the passive feel really strong and unique too).

As for a new ability, it could be something you can use from the skies that doesn't take you down (which is Dive Bomb's niche). Think pressure bombs, or stuff like auto-seeking slashing wind projectiles. Something that doesn't need lots of aiming (which imo is what Dive Bomb is more for, being more powerful requring more aim). I dunno, just go crazy.

I'll give more thought on what would actually be a helpful new ability for her, something that actually brings something NEW to her kit. She has damage and quick CC with Dive Bomb, defense with Turbulence and defensive CC with Tornado. What would truly aid all that?

Someone suggested at some point that should Tailwind and Divebombs be combined, allow Dive-bomb to be performed when cast from using Tailwind while aimgliding. I wouldn't be opposed to that. 

I'm curious what your other ideas were with to give as a 3rd ability @Thaylien. It does take away from. The fact Zephyr doesn't need new abilities but the possibilities have been opened now. Btw for some reason my thread saying De listened got deleted.. Did I expose something?

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, yles9056 said:

Tailwind is used for mobility. I personally prefer making it a passive rather than an ability. But that's just my opinion.

53 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

... allows her to have a new ability instead of Tailwind

That's kind of what I was saying, with this rework I've suggested it wouldn't be necessary at all. Tailwind is currently only used for mobility and I wanted to make it more than that, so it would be a full, energy-worthy cast, hence why I said it was a good idea, but not one that worked here. Why is that so hard?

[Sigh] Sorry.

Anyway, look, there is only one reason why I think the change wouldn't really help; we use a combination of Tailwind, Bullet Jump and regular Jump in our movement, all of them. If you simply replaced, say, Bullet Jump with the Tailwind, we would actually lose a mobility option, not gain one. That's my argument there.

However.

I've never been one to just leave an idea and not consider it. So let's look at this with that in mind and see if it makes sense.

30 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I'm curious what your other ideas were with to give as a 3rd ability

I might have to reconsider what new ability I would give her, compared to my other suggestions, but that's for consideration.

So... A movement-based Tailwind ability set... How's this.

Passive: Aerodynamic. Zephyr's lightweight build allows her to launch herself into the air and has reduced falling speed and increased control while in the air. Holding backwards halts her forwards momentum and increases her fall speed to allow precision stops on smaller maps. 

In practice: The Bullet Jump becomes Tailwind, it is now a pure movement cast that allows her to bypass enemies and it has slightly scaling damage based on the mods that affect Bullet Jump damage, such as Firewalker.

First Ability: Headlong. When on the ground Zephyr blasts off vertically, charging herself with energy and gaining height, pressing 1 while in the air will hurtle Zephyr towards the ground, creating an explosion on impact that knocks down all within the radius dealing damage based on the height triggered and her equipped melee mods. Headlong's explosion can be triggered from any height, and without the launch, however energy cost is reduced if Zephyr does not touch the ground between launching and using her dive. In addition pressing 1 in the air will instantly trigger the dive, however holding 1 will allow for precision aiming and timing by targeting the landing site.

In practice: It's Dive Bomb, with the one exception that I've moved the Tailwind 'launch' function here as well. My reasoning is that it definitely gives the ability a reason to be cast from the ground. Basically, pressing 1 and 1 again will only cost a small amount of energy more than just jumping and pressing 1, it's no longer a double-cast ability by pressing 1 and 2 for the two separate energy costs. 1 in the air costs 25, 1 on the ground costs 25. However on the ground and then again in the air only costs 40 (working value) total as long as she doesn't touch the ground between the launch and the dive. A visual cue will be there to show the difference, a 'charged' glow to Zephyr will persist while she's in the air, and disperse either when touching the ground or when pressing 1 again to dive. As long as the glow is there, the dive portion costs reduced energy.

Another reason to include the launch is that Tailwind's launch mechanic is also a mild damage dealer and proc. It's a guaranteed stagger in the same radius as the Dive Bomb impact radius, so there's plenty of use for it. People with quick reactions could even get a useful radial CC out of it by double-tapping 1 to get the minimum damage, but full-range radial CC. And, like some other frames' first abilities, instead of being purely 'press 1 to do small damage' it's 'press 1 to do small damage in a radius, then press again for a more powerful radial damage and some CC.'

It's also the improved Dive Bomb I mentioned in the original post, triggering the guaranteed knock down, without the suggested range buff function of the launch but still including the damage from melee mods as well as from height scaling. This should be a very versatile ability, the base is very low damage so that we don't have the over-powered comments that were had with Nidus' first ability, but it can be modded to be reasonably high, and the CC cast is allowed to be small because it's only a first ability.

Second Ability: Wind Wall. Zephyr generates a confined wall of purifying air directly in front of herself, allies that pass through it are purged of negative status effects and gain temporary immunity from them while enemies passing through it are slowed. The slow is affected by power strength and range, the wall is affected by duration but remains the same size regardless of mods. Wind Wall can be deployed and re-deployed at any time, lasting for a reasonable duration, however only one wall can be active at once so use it wisely Tenno.

Why this ability, Thaylien? Why? Zephyr has no support. But she isn't a support frame, so that's expected. Then again, she isn't a damage frame either, but she has a modicum of damage with the new Headlong. So how do we give her a support cast in the same way? And what weakness of hers can we counter at the same time? Something new is needed, something we haven't had suggested so far... something tangible on the battlefield to show that Zephyr isn't just passively in the group, show that she's genuinely helping her team!

The idea here is to increase the versatility of the frame, improving on her overall skill set without either stepping on her own toes by adding too much of the same thing, or stepping on the toes of other frames by directly copying something. This ability has to do something that she doesn't do already, so I propose mix-and-matching a defense ability with a team support ability. But there's another limitation on her... Zephyr is already so saturated in mobility-based defense and evasion that we can't give her another thing she takes with her everywhere. I mean, look at Tornado (with or without the changes from the original post), that's a fire-and-forget cast, you can cancel the changed version, but that's it, much like the original it'll do what it's supposed to do until it's finished. Turbulence you take with you, the damage and CC of Dive Bomb/Headlong you take with you... she needs another thing she can leave behind.

And the effect can't be to deflect projectiles, that's what her 3 and Volt's Shield does, it can't be to buff allies directly, that's what other frames do, it can't completely stop enemies from advancing, that's Vauban, and it can't hard CC or knock down enemies because that's what her other abilities do.

In practice: We would use Wind Wall for two reasons, firstly to make a 'safety gate' for us and a squad running through a level, deploy it in front of your group and everyone is temporarily immune to status, so you can use it pre-emptively or as an aid to escaping a bad situation. Secondly to make a single direction of approach into a slow-trap, making enemies approaching us slow down from that specific direction.

On the down side, it's the opposite kind of defense against enemies that Turbulence is, it slows enemies physically but doesn't stop any of their ranged damage. The balance is that it can't stop them, enemies still have the chance to approach Zephyr and whatever she's protecting, but the slow does prevent all the melee charger units from doing it quite so fast.

It has the added benefit of stopping the toxin clouds from infested Osprey units from the point the Osprey passes through the shield, so she has a very niche place on infested maps there too, where usually her abilities aren't so suited for them.

Third Ability: Turbulence. (What did you expect? This doesn't need to change! XD)

Fourth Ability: Tornado. The improved Tornado from my original post, of course this was going to be here ^^

 

Annnd... that's it... I can't think of anything specifically more without tearing down everything I've done and rebuilding it from scratch.

What do you guys think?

[Azamagon]

35 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

-snip-

Heh, can't help but smirk a little at your Headlong ability, as it is pretty much what I had suggested for Dive Bomb :P Well, besides the energy reduction thing ;)

Wind Wall sounds interesting enough, I guess? *shrugs* Seems very niched, but it's a solid idea at least, something one can build upon.
I still would like something projectile-esque as a new ability. A cluster of seeking wind slashes, or a big sphere of ragdolling wind, launched from a Zephyr gliding through the air... it just gives such a nice image in my brain :D

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

Heh, can't help but smirk a little at your Headlong ability, as it is pretty much what I had suggested for Dive Bomb

Wait... I forgot to mention that, didn't I? Sorry, that was exactly my reasoning for including it... I really need to proof read more... XD

[Azamagon]

12 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Wait... I forgot to mention that, didn't I? Sorry, that was exactly my reasoning for including it... I really need to proof read more... XD

Doesn't matter who thought of it first, just happy that you agreed with it :)

"Dive Bomb" being the "go up/down explosively"-ability sounds very smooth and logical after all.

[Birdframe_Prime]

39 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

"Dive Bomb" being the "go up/down explosively"-ability sounds very smooth and logical after all.

It does, and I don't deny it, it just relies on that 'if'. That if you don't have Tailwind as an actual cast and a non-enemy-interactive movement.

I personally believe that, since Tailwind is currently an ability that can be useful as an ability, and not relegated to a pure movement cast, it won't get the same treatment. Limbo's Riftwalk did absolutely nothing to anything except himself, as it affected nothing else, it could be made into a movement, so as Tailwind does affect other things, can be used as a trigger for buffing or interacting with other abilities... that it's something that has to cost energy. If it costs energy, but then becomes a movement... then she'll need a much higher energy pool to account for constant casting.

[Azamagon]

42 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

1) It does, and I don't deny it, it just relies on that 'if'. That if you don't have Tailwind as an actual cast and a non-enemy-interactive movement.

2) I personally believe that, since Tailwind is currently an ability that can be useful as an ability, and not relegated to a pure movement cast, it won't get the same treatment. Limbo's Riftwalk did absolutely nothing to anything except himself, as it affected nothing else, it could be made into a movement, so as Tailwind does affect other things, can be used as a trigger for buffing or interacting with other abilities... that it's something that has to cost energy. If it costs energy, but then becomes a movement... then she'll need a much higher energy pool to account for constant casting.

1) Actually, no. It can still be moved over from Tailwind, even if Tailwind remained as an ability. Then Tailwind is simply a "fly where you aim" ability, while her #2 would be her "go up/down".

2) I can't completely deny that. But she DOES have a bit of that feeling (although not nearly as much Limbo), where she has multiple abilities that makes her do the same thing, which in her case is to fly in different ways. So, I still think she is eligible for the same treatment, more than any other 'frame (after Limbo, of course).

So, that said, I had some (not by any means "finalized") improvements to my own replacement ability idea:

Guiding Winds (25 energy?)
Zephyr launches a cluster of quick and homing wind projectiles, seeking out nearby foes by themselves (a lá Psychic Bolts). When an enemy is struck, it has a wind-effect stuck on them, which does several things to the enemies:
1) Some direct damage - This part is just done on the projectile impact, and is meant to make it useful on early levels, but it is negligble on higher levels, that's when Dive Bomb is the much better damage dealer.
2) A longer lasting DoT (extended slash proc?) - This part is not mainly for damage (although it does help), but the intention is actually to help with INTEL, as you can see numbers ticking easily, even when up in the sky and such, knowing better where to aim for enemies (wether that is with weapons or with Dive Bomb etc)
3) Slight slowdown of enemies - Just to add some mild utility and further aid your aim.
4) Slight enemy damage taken amplification - Further utility, and to synergize better with Dive Bomb, Tornado and your weapons.

And, now for the thing which I find the most interesting part of the ability:
5) Tiny personal "Magnetize"-effect on enemies - The point of this effect is to allow her to more easily shoot enemies while up in the sky! Accuracy while flying is not all that easy after all.

So, the ability is heavily designed to both be heavily useful from the skies, and to aid her with her other activies when remaining in the skies, but also for synergy with her kit even while on the ground.

The overall idea is to make it feel like this:
You are flying through the skies and you see enemies in the distance / there is a cluster of enemies mixed in a chaotic battlefield. You shoot out these homing winds on enemies. Numbers start popping up on specific spots, so now you know better where to aim. The slowdown, damage-amp and projectile-redirection allows you to then more easily shoot enemies with your weapons while still flying in the sky. That, or with mainly utilizing the slowdown and damage-amp, to blast the enemies with more force and ease with your Dive Bomb or Tornado.

Another little thought was that when the enemies shoot at your Turbulence, the shots could then be redirected to enemies struck by Guiding Winds (so yes, it would allow for enemies to be subject to their friendlies' fire, but only on enemies struck by Guiding Winds)

Also, she currently can fly in the skies with Tailwind (or as suggested, with her passive) helped by her lowered graivy. But why would she wanna STAY up in the skies? Turbulence helps her, and Tornado can aid her a bit, but it's a "fire and forget" ability, so you don't cast it often, and Dive Bomb brings her DOWN from the sky. All you can do from up there is to shoot with weapons, but that is more easily done from the ground anyway. Hence: Guiding Winds :)

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 19/02/2017 at 3:35 PM, Azamagon said:

So, that said, I had some (not by any means "finalized") improvements to my own replacement ability idea:

By the way, I completely stole this, and smoothed it out. There's another thread up from me, go see what you think ^^ People are already poking holes in the 'Limbo treatment' for Zephyr, exactly as I was hoping they would XD

But that's that! This is supposed to be the Fix thread, that other thread is for this discussion! Go and have fun ^^

[Karav]

18 hours ago, Thaylien said:

By the way, I completely stole this, and smoothed it out. There's another thread up from me, go see what you think ^^ People are already poking holes in the 'Limbo treatment' for Zephyr, exactly as I was hoping they would XD

But that's that! This is supposed to be the Fix thread, that other thread is for this discussion! Go and have fun ^^

I can see where you're coming from, but we should still consider all options. If making Zephyr's passive unlimited bullet jumps makes Zephyr better or more useful, then we should go for it. There are already a ton of BJ augments that could have synergy with tailwind in a similar fashion to how heavy impact affects dive-bomb. Personally, I'd like to see said augments affect tailwind, but hey. I'll take what I can get.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

4 minutes ago, Karav said:

I can see where you're coming from, but we should still consider all options. If making Zephyr's passive unlimited bullet jumps makes Zephyr better or more useful, then we should go for it. There are already a ton of BJ augments that could have synergy with tailwind in a similar fashion to how heavy impact affects dive-bomb. Personally, I'd like to see said augments affect tailwind, but hey. I'll take what I can get.

The trailer augment has been decided upon but just hidden from public view as per the design council.

[cittran]

I'm still of the opinion that Dive Bomb should have a secondary function where it can be cast while on the ground, simply because of how many enclosed spaces there are in the game:

If cast while on the ground, Dive Bomb instead generates a quick blast of air in the direction Zephyr is facing, similar to Frost's Ice Wave, but without the travel time, and it should ragdoll all non-heavy enemy units within range, while knocking down all heavies.

And I totally stole this idea from A:tLA

Spoiler

 

Mind you, I'm imagining it having a fairly short range and being limited to, say, a 60 degree arc in front of the user.

Edited February 22, 2017 by cittran