Thaylien

Zephyr should be good; a fix thread ::Edit 7th September::

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5 minutes ago, cittran said:

I'm still of the opinion that Dive Bomb should have a secondary function where it can be cast while on the ground, simply because of how many enclosed spaces there are in the game:

If cast while on the ground, Dive Bomb instead generates a quick blast of air in the direction Zephyr is facing, similar to Frost's Ice Wave, but without the travel time, and it should ragdoll all non-heavy enemy units within range, while knocking down all heavies.

I suggested a similar idea as a new move for Zephyr, but it got shot down simply because Banshee already does this. I was thinking a column blast like Falstad's mighty gust from Heroes of the Storm, which has no stun, but instead simply relocates enemies.

If something like this is implemented, I'd like to keep it omnidirectional. I imagine it would work well with turbulence, as it makes melee enemies even less dangerous. It would also help the effectiveness of Zephyr's area denial centered kit. It would also open up an interesting turbulence & dive-bomb melee build.

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3 hours ago, Karav said:

I suggested a similar idea as a new move for Zephyr, but it got shot down simply because Banshee already does this. I was thinking a column blast like Falstad's mighty gust from Heroes of the Storm, which has no stun, but instead simply relocates enemies.

If something like this is implemented, I'd like to keep it omnidirectional. I imagine it would work well with turbulence, as it makes melee enemies even less dangerous. It would also help the effectiveness of Zephyr's area denial centered kit. It would also open up an interesting turbulence & dive-bomb melee build.

Actually, speaking of that, I'd say that Banshee's should work through walls. And doors, for that matter.

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Alright gentles and ladies all, As of today, OP has had a revise, check it out!

On 22/02/2017 at 4:07 PM, Karav said:

I suggested a similar idea as a new move for Zephyr

I remember well, Karav, on this one I'm not including it, even with the revise, for the simple reason that a jump to enable an ability is a far easier thing to leave in than to create an entirely new function to the ability would be. With the new revisions to Tailwind, for example, and the buff function that the Launch from Tailwind uses, this shouldn't be needed. I hope. If DE were to put in an extra function towards a ground-use Dive Bomb... I wouldn't object, but I'd prefer them to get the rework to us with the least complaints from all the players that already like her, and no chance of gimmicks that would cause her to be a different frame.

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6 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I remember well, Karav, on this one I'm not including it, even with the revise, for the simple reason that a jump to enable an ability is a far easier thing to leave in than to create an entirely new function to the ability would be. With the new revisions to Tailwind, for example, and the buff function that the Launch from Tailwind uses, this shouldn't be needed. I hope. If DE were to put in an extra function towards a ground-use Dive Bomb... I wouldn't object, but I'd prefer them to get the rework to us with the least complaints from all the players that already like her, and no chance of gimmicks that would cause her to be a different frame.

That's partially why I have not brought it up until recently. This is about finding ways to fix what exists, rather than forging something new. Besides, any ground-based functionality I can think to give dive-bomb would overlap with Banshee's first or fourth. That's not counting Rhino's stomp, or Ember's ring of fire either. A significant par of what makes dive-bomb unique is that it can only be used in midair.

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The Vertical Launch hold thing is going to be such a pain in the &#! for me on controller. When playing on pc I have no issues using the mouse to quickly aim down and bullet jump or holding a key because of the nature of mouse and keyboard. But on console those maneuvers tend to be  bit more complicated as controls are changed and sensitivity functions differ. 

Man, I'll be glad when Zephyr does get her touchup or whatever because the conversation will be done with these threads all over the place. Either I'll continue playing her or not depending on DE's changes but the fear of some of the worst suggestions I hear on the forums will be over.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

The Vertical Launch hold thing is going to be such a pain in the &#! for me on controller

Have I gone and not explained properly again? I do that... Sorry, and no, you hold the ability button, and you don't have the look at the ground for the launch. The launch is the same vertical version we have now, but from wherever you press and hold the ability. Completely forget the earlier ideas for this change, this is better, pure and simple, 'tap 1 to Tailwind, anywhere, any time, with a bullet-jump-style reflection if you're looking down instead of forwards or up; hold 1 for a second to Launch vertically instead, from anywhere, any time, even in air.'

Much more versatile and much more oriented around using the launch deliberately without involving the movement controls, just using the same angle detection.

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On 2017-5-26 at 8:00 PM, (PS4)TheHourMan said:

Excellent! Love all of these suggestions. Would honestly pick this rework over the one I suggested.

Thanks for stopping in, I honestly wasn't expecting you to at all XD

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11 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Thanks for stopping in, I honestly wasn't expecting you to at all XD

I've got a new idea.

Remove Tailwind from skills. Make Tailwind a passive maneuver whenever Zephyr presses sprint while in the air. Reduced speed, increased evasiveness. Much Faster than sprinting. Slower than original Tailwind or there will be no control. Visual example:

Superglide_KHBBS.gif

Divebomb can launch you in the air for free when cast on the ground. Aiming divebomb can still produce the the tailwind travel effect but unlike tailwind, the skill ends when it meets a collision. 

Just a random idea. Not very well thought out perhaps given the effect of this passive increased evasiveness on a frame who has projectile invulnerability but I thought it was cool enough to mention. I'll probably flesh it out more but I'm interested in what you think first.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I've got a new idea.

Remove Tailwind from skills. Make Tailwind a passive maneuver whenever Zephyr presses sprint while in the air. Reduced speed, increased evasiveness. Much Faster than sprinting. Slower than original Tailwind or there will be no control. Visual example:

Superglide_KHBBS.gif

Divebomb can launch you in the air for free when cast on the ground. Aiming divebomb can still produce the the tailwind travel effect but unlike tailwind, the skill ends when it meets a collision. 

Just a random idea. Not very well thought out perhaps given the effect of this passive increased evasiveness on a frame who has projectile invulnerability but I thought it was cool enough to mention. I'll probably flesh it out more but I'm interested in what you think first.

I've suggested the same passive, but triggered by holding jump (space). This way, it can transition smoothly in and out of parkour, such as wallrunning. It can be triggered (and thus have its speed possibly affected) by bulletjumping, by simply holding the spacebutton in the bulletjump.

Combine it with vastly increased bulletgliding (and passive boost for her?) and her reduced gravity, and Zephyr can fight quite well from midair.

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2 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

I've suggested the same passive, but triggered by holding jump (space). This way, it can transition smoothly in and out of parkour, such as wallrunning. It can be triggered (and thus have its speed possibly affected) by bulletjumping, by simply holding the spacebutton in the bulletjump.

Combine it with vastly increased bulletgliding (and passive boost for her?) and her reduced gravity, and Zephyr can fight quite well from midair.

I like the idea but personally I'd prefer it toggle through sprint considering that holding down space on a controller is a nuisance. I would think that toggling through shift would be much better for you as well.

This is a really cool concept for Zephyr though. It should even calm the nerves of those who dislike her passive. This idea is in addition to her current reduced gravity passive btw just to be clear, like Limbo. And people can get another skill bah blah blah.

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Just now, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I like the idea but personally I'd prefer it toggle through sprint considering that holding down space on a controller is a nuisance. I would think that toggling through shift would be much better for you as well.

This is a really cool concept for Zephyr though. It should even calm the nerves of those who dislike her passive. This idea is in addition to her current reduced gravity passive btw just to be clear, like Limbo. And people can get another skill bah blah blah.

Yup. It's probably all for the best to "Limbo"-fy Tailwind, for sure. It keeps her supreme air mobility+agility, while allowing a new more interesting skill to appear, something that complements the rest of her skill. I've been considering making my own Zephyr thread (in regards to this passive + a new ability), but dunno if it would be just another waste of time.

And further, yeah, giving her a passive that actually matters, something that really gives her a unique style and feel, that's awesome! Imo, most passives should (if possible) be like that.

Question though; Maybe the passive flight should be customizable between sprint and jump (so you set it to what you prefer)?

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Yup. It's probably all for the best to "Limbo"-fy Tailwind, for sure. It keeps her supreme air mobility+agility, while allowing a new more interesting skill to appear, something that complements the rest of her skill. I've been considering making my own Zephyr thread (in regards to this passive + a new ability), but dunno if it would be just another waste of time.

And further, yeah, giving her a passive that actually matters, something that really gives her a unique style and feel, that's awesome! Imo, most passives should (if possible) be like that.

Question though; Maybe the passive flight should be customizable between sprint and jump (so you set it to what you prefer)?

I mean, of course I'd agree to having options however we know DE isn't going to do that. Not because DE is bad but because things are usually uniform in regards to mechanics.

Edited by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

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For the sake of discussion, I'm going to challenge your idea on Tailwind. 

Currently, the biggest gripe of the community with Tailwind is that most consider Parkour 2.0 to outclass it when we both know that isn't true. If anything, it synergizes with the skill, allowing enhanced mobility. However, this only further draws people away considering the fact that bullet jumping isn't much worse than Tailwind. Getting to one location faster for the sake of looking cool isnt very helpful.

I believe this is why most people wanted a merge between 1 and 2. We've argued against that making the claim in the past stating that if Tailwind had more of its own identity and utility, it would stand quite well on its own and I don't disagree completely. However, with the quirks we've described Tailwind still fails to stand on its own merit as a unique offering from Dive-bomb in a few ways which I'll describe.

Let's take Ragdoll for example. The function that would grant Zephyr influence over enemies in her path. This enhancement would change Zephyr drastically from an air Dasher to a mobile CC powerhouse...but would it be helpful? Tailwind would allow you to smash through your enemies in style like the bowling pins they are casting a massive CC in your path. But is it helpful? It's that same ragdoll effect that causes so many players to to hate Zephyrs 4 as it scatters enemies around making them more difficult to follow. It follows the same exact effect of a Rhino charge in which everyone loves, am I right? Not to mention that it only gives further functionality to a low (height) playing Zephyr and directly competes with Dive-bomb.

And here we have Dive-bomb. A skill reworked that I consider an competitor to Tailwind. Granted that the skill becomes aimable, it would offer mobility and damage as well as guaranteed knockdown which is far better than a ragdoll....

And I have to go to work now darn. This isn't over and I will continue this so get ready :-D @Thaylien

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It feels like commenting on Zephyr abilities is kind of tricky when you have buggy edge cases that stop the various abilities from doing their usual thing. Considering the changes in the OP:

I think the press and tap inputs for tail wind are good ideas. It takes away from the fun of using the ability when you don't know what it will do. At least with the command variations, it will be more reliable. On the other suggestions I'd actually settle for a mix; I don't think ragdolling enemies is necessary. Even if it just knocked them off their feet it would be fine. The only 'ragdoll' I think would be cool is if there was an enemy directly in your path while you are jetting. Nearby enemies just get bowled off their feet like with Fire Quake, but if you fly into someone you just knock them back with a little bit of velocity (so you could potentially smack them into a wall or knock them off a cliff). If tail wind had that kind of reliable knockdown effect, I'd actually be fine with the animation lock, since then tail wind would be doing something that a bullet jump definitely can't do. I especially like your example of considering it like an escape, since a bullet jump definitely doesn't let you phase through a mob that is swarming you, but tail wind could just blow through them and get you out of the jam. I prefer a knockdown to full on rag doll because the latter to me means the potential that enemies end up in spots that you don't expect. With a knockdown you can at least expect to find them where they stood.

On a side note, I think a cool animation addition to tail wind would be that if you did it on the ground, the animation ends in a dodge roll which would look more fluid animation wise and give you a little bit of space coming out of an animation where you were vulnerable.

 

Dive bomb I'm not sure what to do with. With the Zephyr build I run right now, it has no value. I just know that I would like it to be a radial AoE dmg/cc ability that doesn't need you to be high in the sky for it to do some work. What form that should take, I'm not so sure yet.

 

Tornadoes I feel like would be fine as is if they just moved a tiny little bit quicker and if their pathing was just a little bit better. I'm find with them tossing things around outdoors since they seem to pick things up again if the duration is long, and indoors they ruin mobs since the enemies stay trapped in funnel forcing them to eat the full dmg which is somewhat significant with long duration.

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Dive Bomb would in effect be a circular and much larger AoE knockdown affected by height, range, and melee mods which opens enemies to follow ups. Tailwind on the other hand would become a linear sweep who's effectiveness is based off of a multitude of factors. 

Run into an enemy with Tailwind and they get launched much further than where your Tailwind takes you putting them out of follow up range. Imagine trying to follow up on a Rhino charge. That's essentially what it would be, minus the stacking buff of course.

In my opinion, this adds some feature to Tailwind but pushes Zephyr in Rhinos element too much. 

Tbc

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On 2017-5-31 at 11:34 AM, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

For the sake of discussion, I'm going to challenge your idea on Tailwind. 

Oooh, discussion ^^ Sorry it took so long to get back!

Okay, let's look at this then... I had, actually considered this problem of 'is ragdoll CC a helpful skill' for Tailwind, my answer was this: Tailwind is so often used for mobility, this won't change. However Tailwind was originally given damage, it's supposed to be cast as both a high-flying movement and directly at opponents already. So I wanted to keep it as both. This is also to address @blacklusterseph's comment about preferring knock-down, because something that's abundantly clear from Dive Bomb, is that knock down itself is unreliable, it also doesn't allow pass-through of enemies. Ragdoll 'in the direction of travel' is the key phrase for me; it would act exactly like a directional knock-back, but you'd have the hang-time and delay in opponents recovering that a simple knock down doesn't give you. It also would act as a forced re-target for enemies, meaning that any team following you would have time to react and target enemies on the ground unlike Rhino Charge and Avalanche. (Also, I really like the idea that Tailwind ending near the ground triggers an automatic dive-roll, for additional damage reduction and for fluidity that sounds amazing ^^)

Those who know my threads and comments from a while back may remember that I initially wanted an animation-based CC applied to enemies touched by Tailwind, it would spin enemies around in place and make them dizzy (chance to proc Confusion status) and force them to re-target. The idea was never to make enemies scatter where they weren't expected, exactly the same reason I wanted my Tornado rework to drop enemies back within the range of the cast instead of throwing them away into odd corners, and the only reason I changed it to a ragdoll was the importance to me of not making DE generate new assets for the game, just to use the existing assets to speed up the process. The most important thing I wanted to add to Tailwind was some very simple reason to cast it directly at an enemy instead of just over them, without that reason being 'damage'.

The additional effect itself (ragdoll or otherwise) started as more to encourage that tactical balance of movement versus effect on enemies, and even more with the separation of the launch and dash into the tap/hold activation, so that when you want to dash anywhere you can tap, while if you want to gain height for Dive Bomb synergy you hold for a second and launch. By giving players that option to say 'there's a row of enemies coming from that corridor, I'm going to dash through them and ignore them' for fast runs or 'they're going to group up, I'll launch into the air and use Dive Bomb on them to kill them' for exterminates, I simply hoped to maintain that tactical choice. The two different applications of the ability with two different end results.

Now when you stop and think about it the suggestion to move that launch onto Dive Bomb itself is a good one, especially as it would make the synergy far more obvious and give Dive Bomb that initial cast for when Zephyr is surrounded, but then we'd have to make Tailwind itself more useful again to balance. And again, making it an aim-able/directional Dive Bomb would negate the need for a Tailwind almost totally outside of our movement system... so where does it leave our 1 cast?

Maybe you guys are right, maybe putting all the movement onto 2 would allow her 1 to be something else, or vice-versa. However...

All my thoughts keep coming back to the... original DE concept of the frame. Even though the original frame concept was a wind-based martial artist that hovered around the battlefield and threw iron feathers and wind blasts around, that wasn't implemented. DE saw it differently, and the abilities were supposed to work by playing one after the other, much like Nidus with his 2-1 combo to grab enemies and then hit them for focused damage and energy regen. 1 was to go, and have a bonus for when she actually hit things with the cast; 2 was to come down hard, or it was made to be an 'oh crap, I'm surrounded, knock 'em down' cast in confined spaces. The more that my rework can play to this, the combo of 1 and 2, as movement cast with a side effect and an offensive CC cast with potential damage, where 1 builds the bonus for 2... the more I feel I've kept to something DE will want to implement in this frame.

That's the theme of this thread, see? That's why it's not about giving her new abilities; because I want to make DE want to do it XD I want them to know that I see all the value that these abilities have and the potential power they have on top of that. I want to show them that Zephyr is not badly designed, that she could be a powerhouse, and all it takes is updating her.

But hey, Renova has convinced me of ideas in the past, let's keep this discussion going!

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1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Oooh, discussion ^^ Sorry it took so long to get back!

The thing is, I don't think that the current value of Zephyrs skills are being neglected but instead misrepresented.

I have work again so my in depth response will have to wait but I think a lot of our positioning and concerns center around the idea that we don't believe DE will take the time the out to do any extra work rather than manipulate some skill values. It's a shame really.

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Posted (edited)
Quote

This is also to address @blacklusterseph's comment about preferring knock-down, because something that's abundantly clear from Dive Bomb, is that knock down itself is unreliable, it also doesn't allow pass-through of enemies.

Hm, maybe we have different understanding here. First I'll say what I think ragdoll is: I think it is when some skill or action imparts some velocity vector on an enemy, causing them to be disabled and repositioned. To me, knockdown is exactly the same thing but you don't impart any velocity, the enemy just falls over. Both knockdown and ragdoll should then put the enemy in the same recovery state, where they take a while to gather themselves before shooting at you again. If that is not how it works in Warframe, my apologies. That was my assumption. At the end of the day I just want an enemy affected by tailwind to be disabled for a brief period without throwing them to unexpected places. Whether the correct word for that is ragdoll or knockdown doesn't really matter to me.

Quote

Now when you stop and think about it the suggestion to move that launch onto Dive Bomb itself is a good one, especially as it would make the synergy far more obvious and give Dive Bomb that initial cast for when Zephyr is surrounded, but then we'd have to make Tailwind itself more useful again to balance.

I'm cool with the existing synergy coupled with the tailwind suggestions you made in the OP. I already mentioned what I essentially would like out of dive bomb. The idea of that skill is not intrinsically bad. I'd just like something to be done with it that makes it retain its utility in a corridor. Maybe I'm missing one but I can't think of any other abilities in the game that essentially become useless based simply on the tile-set you happen to be in.

Also with regards to the first quote, I think Dive Bomb's unreliable knockdown is due to how buggy it is, not because knockdown is a fundamentally unreliable mechanic in concept. The wiki mentions something about Dive Bomb's effect sometimes being applied below the ground which is why enemies standing on the ground are unaffected. Also, the animation for it is comically inconsistent.

Edited by blacklusterseph

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On 2017-6-2 at 3:01 PM, blacklusterseph said:

To me, knockdown is exactly the same thing but you don't impart any velocity

Actually, this is a rather weird thing about the game (I get that you don't mind the terminology, just know what effect you want, but in game terms it's kind of important):

Knock Down is a status proc, in terms of how it functions in the game, this particular status has two problems: one is that it doesn't actually change the 'pass through' status of the character model, so if you're using Tailwind it still means that you impact the model as if it were still standing, the other is that most Animations all prevent Knock Down from interrupting them.

Animation beats Status in Warframe, it's how we can have un-interrupted casting animations, melee animations and so on. The Knock Down on Dive Bomb is unreliable because any animation being done by the enemies, such as using the consoles in Interception, a ground slam from a heavy unit, the crouch charge from Drakk master's throwing animation... all of that prevents Knock Down. The only status that interrupts animations is a Ragdoll, which basically disconnects the character model from the navigation mesh in order to impart some velocity to them. If you look at the 'knock back' on Frost's Snowglobe, it's basically ragdoll status, except they've locked the position of the model's parts with the 'freeze' status.

It's all a programmatical problem in the game. If you want to be able to pass through enemies using Tailwind, you either need to use Ragdoll or Animation.

This is why I, trying to give CC to Tailwind and more reliability to Dive Bomb, use those two. Ragdoll for Tailwind because it imparts some momentum to the enemies in the direction of travel (not out to the sides like other casts do) so that enemies are seemingly dragged along in the wake of the cast, meaning reliable placement of those enemies once you turn around, and Animation for Dive Bomb because it can be given exactly the same duration of CC as a regular knock down, but also is guaranteed to CC everything it touches except bosses.

I mean, sure, I definitely get what you're saying now, you made your point there, it's just trying to work in the limits of the game's programming.

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On 6/2/2017 at 4:34 AM, Thaylien said:

Oooh, discussion ^^ Sorry it took so long to get back!

I want to address your synergy idea a bit.

I still finding it harder as days go by and I think of new techniques to keep defending Tailwind IF DE would be open to changes.

Your old Wind Gale could easily replace 1 if Zephyr was given the Passive Tailwind buff I brought up giving her the best of both worlds. Gale could even implement the OG Zephyr feathers idea in which enemies are barraged by feathers while pushing them back in the direction with the ragdoll/knockdown. It would be even more awesome if enemies got pinned to the walls with the feathers if they were close enough. Now That they're pinned, Gain some height (grounded Dive-bomb) and Divebombs them. 

Dive-bomb could also in fact since it's based off of the original Tailwind synergy, lift enemies into the air AoE when used grounded and have them follow you back to the ground when you aim the Dive-bomb somewhere. Or you could let them drop. Or you could lift enemies into the air with Dive-bomb grounded and then cast Gale and push them off the map. 

There's just so much potential in her kit being an air caster for synergies. Perhaps this should have been my answer for how to OP Zephyr in your other thread but zim really seeing the potential.

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51 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I still finding it harder as days go by and I think of new techniques to keep defending Tailwind IF DE would be open to changes.

I can't deny it, I even mentioned it up there; the Dive Bomb synergy belonging solely to Dive Bomb (up and down) would definitely be an option.

My only defense is this 'original synergy' hang-up I have and that I really, honestly believe that the first step of DE bringing Zephyr up to spec would be to work with her existing abilities like they did with Oberon. Maybe not the last step, but definitely the first.

Oberon was under-whelming on his rework, true, but after DE listened to the feedback (like removing the forced synergy of his 2 and 3 by letting anyone that has Renewal on them just touch HG in order to get the Iron Renewal buff instead of forcing them to be on it at cast) he's become a bit of a beast. I took him for an hour run on Mot with melee only and no Naramon before this change over (actually, I only got to 57 minutes... but that's not bad), and after I got to an hour and a half. So he's definitely improved for solo, and on the shorter runs I can do pretty much anything I like as soon as I've got a full tank of energy and then 2-3 combo'd.

This is the kind of approach I really want for Zephyr, improve her abilities at base and listen to the feedback to see if there's more that can be improved on.

Yes, I admit, it would be really, really cool to see what DE do with her if they were to do the Limbo treatment, buff her aim glide into a full on glide, then throw in a new ability that played into her other abilities. The one suggested on that other thread we argued over, Katabatic Vortex, would play into a newly buffed Dive, or directional knock-back that grouped or pinned enemies for it, that would work too. And to tell the truth, I wouldn't honestly mind if that's the route DE went for.

I just have this specific preference for what I'd like to see; reworking her existing abilities to function as they really could, simply because I see it as the most achievable and most effective for the time spent. And when I say effective for time, I really mean that. I can't see how hard it would be to simply unlock Zephyr's Tailwind from animation, switch the damage on impact into a linear ragdoll on impact, and switch the trigger for launch/dash to a tap/hold... I can't see how difficult it could really be to take the assets from Rhino Stomp (the animation, not the slow time) and apply that to Dive Bomb instead of the knock down proc, and then set the damage to be modded by weapon mods too, even the range is just a number tweak. And then the only thing that would take time is the AI programming on Tornado, as soon as that's done, the ability is almost fixed entirely, with a few basic tweaks like 'casting zephyr is the only one that can change the element, and they can change it to what they choose', or the active cancel.

And those changes alone, three abilities simply mechanically tweaked, would make such a huge difference in game. I genuinely believe that these differences would change Zephyr enough that she could stand up with all the rest and be played as a valid alternative style to the other frames instead of her niche.

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7 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

I can't deny it, I even mentioned it up there; the Dive Bomb synergy belonging solely to Dive Bomb (up and down) would definitely be an option.

My only defense is this 'original synergy' hang-up I have and that I really, honestly believe that the first step of DE bringing Zephyr up to spec would be to work with her existing abilities like they did with Oberon. Maybe not the last step, but definitely the first.

Oberon was under-whelming on his rework, true, but after DE listened to the feedback (like removing the forced synergy of his 2 and 3 by letting anyone that has Renewal on them just touch HG in order to get the Iron Renewal buff instead of forcing them to be on it at cast) he's become a bit of a beast. I took him for an hour run on Mot with melee only and no Naramon before this change over (actually, I only got to 57 minutes... but that's not bad), and after I got to an hour and a half. So he's definitely improved for solo, and on the shorter runs I can do pretty much anything I like as soon as I've got a full tank of energy and then 2-3 combo'd.

This is the kind of approach I really want for Zephyr, improve her abilities at base and listen to the feedback to see if there's more that can be improved on.

Yes, I admit, it would be really, really cool to see what DE do with her if they were to do the Limbo treatment, buff her aim glide into a full on glide, then throw in a new ability that played into her other abilities. The one suggested on that other thread we argued over, Katabatic Vortex, would play into a newly buffed Dive, or directional knock-back that grouped or pinned enemies for it, that would work too. And to tell the truth, I wouldn't honestly mind if that's the route DE went for.

I just have this specific preference for what I'd like to see; reworking her existing abilities to function as they really could, simply because I see it as the most achievable and most effective for the time spent. And when I say effective for time, I really mean that. I can't see how hard it would be to simply unlock Zephyr's Tailwind from animation, switch the damage on impact into a linear ragdoll on impact, and switch the trigger for launch/dash to a tap/hold... I can't see how difficult it could really be to take the assets from Rhino Stomp (the animation, not the slow time) and apply that to Dive Bomb instead of the knock down proc, and then set the damage to be modded by weapon mods too, even the range is just a number tweak. And then the only thing that would take time is the AI programming on Tornado, as soon as that's done, the ability is almost fixed entirely, with a few basic tweaks like 'casting zephyr is the only one that can change the element, and they can change it to what they choose', or the active cancel.

And those changes alone, three abilities simply mechanically tweaked, would make such a huge difference in game. I genuinely believe that these differences would change Zephyr enough that she could stand up with all the rest and be played as a valid alternative style to the other frames instead of her niche.

Gotta respect that. You of course make great points.

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10 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Gotta respect that. You of course make great points.

Hmmm... I've been thinking a little more too. Because Synergy.

Synergy is something I think some abilities have without needing a direct 'cast this and it then makes another ability do this' function. I'll actually come back to Nidus on this too, because his 2-1 combo synergises perfectly, but does nothing beyond the most basic of 'if you do this first, the enemies are all grouped up to hit with his 1, it's more efficient' and players all figured that out really quickly.

At the moment when a player talks about synergy it's all linked to things like Limbo, Saryn and Oberon, where casting one ability plays directly into buffs for the next and the next. Saryn is forced, true, but Oberon now has beautiful buffing synergy, and Limbo has some of the most powerful CC synergy around.

What you want to find, in warframes, is a balance of those. Where abilities are diverse enough to cover weaknesses, but they still play into each other, and even buff each other.

Zephyr, to me, has all the basis to be something that Warframe really doesn't see all that often; an actual shock trooper.

Now you and many others might say 'but that's what warframes are, by and large, right..?' and the answer is... kind of. You have dedicated Infiltrator frames, like Loki, Ivara and Ash. You have Trooper and General Purpose units like Rhino, Chroma, Excal, Inaros, Wukong and so on, and then you have Support and Caster frames like Trin, Oberon, Octavia, Nyx and the rest. Among each of the three bigger classes there are damage frames, tanking frames, light frames and so on... but you don't have many that I'd class as Shock Troops, which are, basically, the first wave used to punch holes in a group of enemies and then survive long enough for everyone else to capitalise on it.

A good example might be Valkyr, able to jump in, cast a stun ability, attack hard, bust up the heaviest units with a point CC, and in case she's in too deep, use Hysteria to survive. But Valkyr only has that short duration stun as her 'entry' ability, and it costs her mobility and time if she wants to maintain that.

Zephyr, however, could have the Shock Trooper role on lock; A high speed entry/exit ability on 1, a hard-hitting, short duration CC on 2 that is not only re-castable quickly, but if buffed could do some serious damage mid-tier, reliable personal defense on 3 for survivability that doesn't limit her in any way (unlike Valkyr's that forces her into melee) and it also defends points of interest too, and then her big strategy is an area-clearing heavy CC on 4 that can be elementally charged to deal better damage. There would, to me, be no frame to do that job better.

Is that role needed? Actually, it's debatable, but I'm leaning towards yes, it's something I find myself doing a lot with the frame anyway; another frame goes down, I'm there with the assist. The only others that are would be invisible frames, and those are usually squishy enough, or lacking the personal defense option, that means a pub player (shooting away blithely with their secondary and attracting all the enemies to shoot back) would often get the invisible frame killed.

Her weakness will always be melee, and so having a decent clear-and-hold mentality on her abilities would be amazing, especially with a sound exit strategy in the form of Tailwind.

And that brings us back to ability synergy. Abilities that have multiple applications, like the CC versus Damage on Dive Bomb or the movement versus CC on Tailwind, also having those implied synergies instead of just the blatant 'this buffs this' style of synergy is really important for frames when they are looking to perform specific in-game tactics like that.

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I hope the tap/hold Tailwind activation goes through at the very least. That and maybe a bugfix pass would help a lot. Having said all that, I still think Zephyr would be one of the least played frames even if some of the more exotic ideas for her powers were tried out. Even so, I think her kit still works a lot better than some other frames in the game, even as it stands now.

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