We need a Conclave Rework!

[crusheralpha]

Seriously, the way Conclave is right now, I'm not surprised why most of us don't like it.

Its unbalanced, it's too hard to even land a bullet, it's hard with people calling you cheaters.

Im not here to rant, and I'll try to suggest some ideas to help fix this problem.

I think we should keep things like our sprint speed to our normal PvE speed, and eliminate bullet jumps. It still makes it challenging to aim, but the possibilities for ultra-erratic movements are decreased, so you at least have the slightest idea where the players going.

And instead of rolling, I think we could have quick sidesteps or backsteps, with less "recovery" time before you can perform actions again. I'll get to that in a minute.

Conclave has an unbalanced weapon system, Bratons and it's other variants are a bit too strong. I think we could still use some subtle (no, major) tweaks and weapon damage and such.

Melee combat is also quite boring, it's just a matter of who spams E faster and hope the other dies before you. I would like it if melee blocking could deflect and stagger opponents, so you actually have to think of when to strike your enemy.

Thats also where that sidestepping I mentioned earlier comes in. Being able to perform a quick dodge and counter immediately. All this has to be reasonably paced, because warframe is a fast-paced shooter, think fast or get killed fast.

And I don't like the feature or Oro collecting. It's unfair for snipers, get a kill from far of and watch as the orange crystal get snatched away by someone who just swoops in.

Should we get these types of changes, or is Conclave ok the way it is now? Feel free to discuss.

Operator Boxing Ring anyone?

 

 

[Miser_able]

I think our frames should use the same movement style operators use. (Slow, no bullet jump, low jump height, fall damage, etc)

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

Proper servers.

Limited movement / no bullet jump.

Change of how melee combat works in Warframe for pvp.

These would possibly see me playing it. I'd much prefer them to scrap pvp but it's not gonna happen. It's in a bad spot and the only way we can enjoy it. Is if my brother and i host the match because it's easy mode while the rest lag.

Edited February 5, 2017 by (PS4)Mofojokers

[(PSN)rowansprite]

I'm not a great PvPer, but honestly, I find that it's generally quite balanced really. There is an extremely high skill gap, that much is for certain, but that's not necessarily a bad thing (and mostly comes into play due to the mobility, as mentioned). In general, most weapons really do the damage they should be doing, and the mode encourages switching weapons frequently- damage types still mean a lot, after all. Melee combat could be better though, I agree. Sprinting speed is fine, but parkour maneuver speed could probably be lowered some- it's still quite possible to hit people, however.

[VeggieHam]

4 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

I think our frames should use the same movement style operators use. (Slow, no bullet jump, low jump height, fall damage, etc)

I like this idea actually :)

[Xgomme]

Imo the first problem is still servers.

 

But I think they should bring back stamina for Conclave, so people will actually learn to move on purpose, and not spam Rhinopticor while bullet jumping

[VeggieHam]

10 minutes ago, crusheralpha said:

Operator Boxing Ring anyone?

I would pay to see this happen, too.

Teenage kids punching each other xD

[(PSN)Colloquial_Bloke]

The whole point of this game is mobility.  Why would you want to lower it?  If you want a shooter that doesn't utilize vertical movement, play BF1.  It is entirely possible to land shots once you get used to conclave.

If anything, auto rifles need another buff.  There isn't any real reason to use them when so many 1HK weapons are readily available, and honestly, the Latron, Karak, Gorgon, and Soma all S#&$ on the Braton.

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by (PS4)Colloquial_Bloke

[Xgomme]

Just now, (PS4)Colloquial_Bloke said:

The whole point of this game is mobility.  Why would you want to lower it?  If you want a shooter that doesn't utilize vertical movement, play BF1.  It is entirely possible to land shots once you get used to conclave.

If anything, auto rifles need another buff.  There isn't any real reason to use them when so many 1HK weapons are readily available, and honestly, the Layton, Karak, Gorgon, and Soma all S#&$ on the Braton.

 

[Krion112]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)rowansprite said:

I'm not a great PvPer, but honestly, I find that it's generally quite balanced really. There is an extremely high skill gap, that much is for certain, but that's not necessarily a bad thing (and mostly comes into play due to the mobility, as mentioned). In general, most weapons really do the damage they should be doing, and the mode encourages switching weapons frequently- damage types still mean a lot, after all. Melee combat could be better though, I agree. Sprinting speed is fine, but parkour maneuver speed could probably be lowered some- it's still quite possible to hit people, however.

It's far and away way too easy to just write off imbalance as being a 'high skill ceiling'. I don't agree that Conclave has a 'high skill ceiling', it's more like a very slight misstep in mechanics that leads to a massive, glaring balance issue. People who exploit it call it a skill ceiling, people who don't avoid conclave because they know it's imbalanced.

It's mostly bullet-jump; it's too reliable at no cost. There's no risk, only reward for using it. Games that have enhanced mobility either aren't this fluid or have massive trade-offs, like Rocket Jumping necessitates health and ammo loss and you can't just jump and fly around in Doom (2016).

The only valid way to remove this issues is to add back Stamina; it wouldn't need to affect sprinting or simpler movement tasks, but it should be used to limit the reliability of bullet-jump, air melee, and spin melee. Flexible Warframes may be able to bullet-jump with only half a full stamina meter, but powerful and precise Warframes would be more limited to probably only being able to utilize a full stamina meter to bullet-jump, and requiring a complete 'recharge' before being able to do it again.

Enhanced mobility should be more about maneuvering, and less about speed. Every Warframe benefits from maneuverability, only a few benefit from excessive speed.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Krion112

[(PSN)Colloquial_Bloke]

6 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

[(PSN)rowansprite]

6 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

It's far and away way too easy to just write off imbalance as being a 'high skill ceiling'. I don't agree that Conclave has a 'high skill ceiling', it's more like a very slight misstep in mechanics that leads to a massive, glaring balance issue. People who exploit it call it a skill ceiling, people who don't avoid conclave because they know it's imbalanced.

 

It really is a high skill ceiling though. I'm saying this as someone who is blatantly not good at Conclave at all. 

The PvP comes down to two aspects- movement, primarily. Secondarily, aiming. To do the best possible, you have to be able to do both fluidly, which is EXTREMELY difficult. But if you've ever seen higher-tier players going at it, they're perfectly capable of hitting each other while both people are flying about. 

The only balance issue this really brings up is that it makes high damaging single-hit weapons generally superior, but that's only in the case of really high-leveled play. Even then, it's high risk high reward- and weapons of that sort are generally top-tier in the hands of a skilled player regardless of the game (see: snipers in any FPS, non-class based shooters (and even some class based ones))

I saw it put in one way before that Warframe PvP shouldn't be thought of as a shooter... but as a shooter combined with a dogfighting game. The entire 3D space of the maps are available to your use, nowhere is limited, and directional movement is key. Erratic movement may prevent you from being hit, but you're also not going to be getting hits. Unpredictable but calculated movement, however, is king.

Edited February 5, 2017 by (PS4)rowansprite

[Xgomme]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Colloquial_Bloke said:

-snip-

Since you edited Layton to Latron, I think you got my point

[(PSN)Colloquial_Bloke]

@Xgomme

I edited it before I saw your post :/

Auto correct is a *@##$.

Edited February 5, 2017 by (PS4)Colloquial_Bloke

[Maicael]

21 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

It's far and away way too easy to just write off imbalance as being a 'high skill ceiling'. I don't agree that Conclave has a 'high skill ceiling', it's more like a very slight misstep in mechanics that leads to a massive, glaring balance issue. People who exploit it call it a skill ceiling, people who don't avoid conclave because they know it's imbalanced.

It's mostly bullet-jump; it's too reliable at no cost. There's no risk, only reward for using it. Games that have enhanced mobility either aren't this fluid or have massive trade-offs, like Rocket Jumping necessitates health and ammo loss and you can't just jump and fly around in Doom (2016).

The only valid way to remove this issues is to add back Stamina; it wouldn't need to affect sprinting or simpler movement tasks, but it should be used to limit the reliability of bullet-jump, air melee, and spin melee. Flexible Warframes may be able to bullet-jump with only half a full stamina meter, but powerful and precise Warframes would be more limited to probably only being able to utilize a full stamina meter to bullet-jump, and requiring a complete 'recharge' before being able to do it again.

Enhanced mobility should be more about maneuvering, and less about speed. Every Warframe benefits from maneuverability, only a few benefit from excessive speed.

Looks like a pretty high skill ceiling to me.

Spoiler

 

Especially when considering the complaints some have about Mastery tests that require basic mobility proficiency.

I'm not very good at Conclave either, but mostly because I can't aim while moving or while my target is moving too fast, even in a regular PvP shooter on a 2D plane.

[Krion112]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)rowansprite said:

-snip-

Inevitably, high skill will balance against high skill, but that doesn't mean the game is balanced, and I can guarantee those 'high skilled players' can't even use every piece of equipment available completely effectively; they always have to rely on a crutch weapon or Warframe because the game only supports particular play-styles due to its imbalance, which is partially the result of such freedom and reliability of excessive speed and movement.

Put a Tetra in the hands of those players, and suddenly they won't do as well. Sure, they can still do reasonably well, but there's definitely a massive drop off in their performance. Mostly because the Tetra isn't some quick impact and high damage weapon. But it should be just as effective as any other weapon should be against the particular roles it's designed to counter, but it doesn't because things like bullet-jump break its balance.

And, unfortunately, if Warframe was a 'dogfighting' styled game, it'd be incredibly imbalanced on that front, but fortunately it's really not supposed to be, the fact that we can 'dogfight' is entirely accidental, and unaccounted for in the game's weapon and Warframe balance. As such, I don't think it'd make sense to attach to that idea, so I'm not even going to consider it.

You're telling me that 'Flexibility' is king, and that's already defying balance because you're disregarding Power and Precision. And because bullet-jumping is pretty offense-oriented, you're also disregarding all non-offense roles. As such, there is no skill ceiling, only imbalance in favor of flexibility, which creates a massive sleuth of problems that are already well documented for Warframe, such as favoritism among certain weapons, disregard for others, and lack of true challenge.

[(PSN)rowansprite]

17 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

-snip-

In all fairness, weapons such as the Tetra perform poorly in PvE as well. (Not referring to the Tetra's stats specifically here, I mean in that it has travel time on the bullets). At least it does compared to other weapons, anyway. Weapons that aren't balanced well in PvP GENERALLY aren't balanced well in PvE either. Hitscan weapons are undeniably better in PvP than non-hitscan ones, but if you were to give a high-skilled player a weapon such as, say, Karak, they're still going to be perfectly well off. Bows are an exception to the hitscan rule, however. Either way, yea, this is an imbalance, but it's one that exists in both aspects of Warframe, just to varying degrees. 

In regards to the part about bullet-jumping rendering non-offensive roles difficult... yyeess, and no. In some ways, that's completely true. But defensive roles are capable of using it just as much. The difference between them being that defensive roles are far better at locking down areas than those lacking it- which is a given. More importantly, non-offensive roles tend to be REALLY good at performing something extremely dangerous in PvP: slowing people down. This can, in affect, make them just as deadly. 

As for the last point, I have to be 100% honest with you, I'm not sure I understand how being flexible is imbalace. Play a Dark Souls game (PvP preferably, to get the point across: Dark Souls 2 especially in this case), for instance, and people will tell you that being adaptable (i.e. flexible) is key. In the example I gave, Dark Souls 2, being flexible is not at all an imbalance, but what makes the game as balanced as it is (in comparison to the other games anyhow). The same can be said for Warframe, in my own opinion anyway. In the case of Warframe, a defensive role can play offensively, and an offensive role can play defensively- their primary role simply dictates the effectiveness of that. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by (PS4)rowansprite

[Krion112]

7 minutes ago, Maicael said:

Looks like a pretty high skill ceiling to me.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Especially when considering the complaints some have about Mastery tests that require basic mobility proficiency.

I'm not very good at Conclave either, but mostly because I can't aim while moving or while my target is moving too fast, even in a regular PvP shooter on a 2D plane.

Really? You see high skill ceiling? I still see incredible imbalance. It's erratic game-play exploited by people with unquestionable talent. Imbalance can be present, even if there is a distinct 'filter' between a good player and a less-skilled player. That doesn't mean there's no skill ceiling at all either, but Warframe's 'tall' skill ceiling exists entirely because of an imbalance, and not because it was intended to be (unless, it was intended to be imbalanced, which would be counterproductive because it seems to have driven people to avoid Conclave where they can).

You suggest I'm bad at Conclave because I think it's imbalanced? I mean, yeah I'm not the best, but I've had my moments, many victories of standing alone, shining among a heap of corpses, and even defeating some of the more renowned players, often getting berated for using unconventional tactics to defeat them. And even if I was bad at conclave, that still doesn't eliminate my argument. A game-designer can know the game, but not be as good at executing it themselves. The fact of the matter is Conclave is not very popular, and it stems to reason that people know it some manner that the system is flawed, and I've outlined multiple times across multiple threads why Warframe's balance is often broken in many regards, and what I've found to be broken lines up perfectly with issues that keep cropping up.

If there's one thing I'm definitely good at in Conclave, it would be the mobility, but I cannot look anywhere else; all of Conclave, and even Warframe's PvE, suffers from the flaw of making Flexibility too powerful by allowing fluid, reliable freedom of movement at no cost. It's why games like Quake and Halo have incredibly balanced PvP elements, such as Quake having high maneuvering cost and entirely aggressive-oriented balance and Halo (the 'good' Halo games, anyway) having very controlled mobility to allow the different role-oriented balanced to work.

[(PSN)Colloquial_Bloke]

25 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

Inevitably, high skill will balance against high skill, but that doesn't mean the game is balanced, and I can guarantee those 'high skilled players' can't even use every piece of equipment available completely effectively; they always have to rely on a crutch weapon or Warframe because the game only supports particular play-styles due to its imbalance, which is partially the result of such freedom and reliability of excessive speed and movement.

Put a Tetra in the hands of those players, and suddenly they won't do as well. Sure, they can still do reasonably well, but there's definitely a massive drop off in their performance. Mostly because the Tetra isn't some quick impact and high damage weapon. But it should be just as effective as any other weapon should be against the particular roles it's designed to counter, but it doesn't because things like bullet-jump break its balance.

And, unfortunately, if Warframe was a 'dogfighting' styled game, it'd be incredibly imbalanced on that front, but fortunately it's really not supposed to be, the fact that we can 'dogfight' is entirely accidental, and unaccounted for in the game's weapon and Warframe balance. As such, I don't think it'd make sense to attach to that idea, so I'm not even going to consider it.

You're telling me that 'Flexibility' is king, and that's already defying balance because you're disregarding Power and Precision. And because bullet-jumping is pretty offense-oriented, you're also disregarding all non-offense roles. As such, there is no skill ceiling, only imbalance in favor of flexibility, which creates a massive sleuth of problems that are already well documented for Warframe, such as favoritism among certain weapons, disregard for others, and lack of true challenge.

These problems exist in nearly every PvP.  Not every weapon is "top tier".  High damage, slow firing weapons are favored by skilled players in nearly every shooting game.  If you hit your shot, the enemy is dead without being able to retaliate.

The PvP in Warframe feels unique, and it is.  Why would anyone want to change it into something it wasn't meant to be?

The highly mobile, tense PvP moments are what keep me playing conclave.  The games where my enemies just stand still shooting aren't so much fun as they are target practice.

When people log into the conclave, and expect it to be like anything else they've played, they are setting themselves up for failure.

Edited February 5, 2017 by (PS4)Colloquial_Bloke

[Valiant]

Conclave used to be worse before what we have now. But it was also more crazy, unbalanced and to a degree, fun, just for those reasons. Also, I liked the smaller maps, if I remember rightly.

The only real thing conclave needs sorted out is the server/latency differences. Maybe movement too but I guess they have to keep that quick movement etc. as that's a key part of warframe.

Ultimately there's little point trying to balance damage, weapons, abilities and movement even more when it can all very easily be unhinged by severe - or even minor - latency differences. It can turn things upside down.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Naith

[fatpig84]

Get server side PVP servers first.

[Krion112]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)rowansprite said:

-snip-

The Tetra actually does not under-perform, rather it is overshadowed by the imbalance of the modding system, which is the result of trying to enforce statistical upgrades onto an Orthogonal (ie, every weapon has a unique purpose and role) weapon balance to simulate progress, when for Orthogonal games, to create progress you create more options, not merely statistical upgrades. See, when you use the Tetra to counter the specific roles it beats (ie, Lancers, Seekers, Ballistas), it performs well. People only really call it under-powered because other weapons of its counterpart roles can be made to kill everything, which is a facet of imbalance.

I also guarantee, if Bullet-Jump wasn't reliable in Conclave, it would be a more popular weapon, because then it could actually do its job (which, if you play against certain people, it already does).

No, hit-scan is not inherently more powerful than projectile weapons; it's merely more flexible. It's designed so that you worry less about aiming, because you don't need to make nearly as many predictions. However, when people have too much freedom of movement, you can make it so that flexibility, ie Hit-scan, is the only viable path.

In a way, yes Bullet-jump does aid other roles as well, but when it's as fluid and reliable as it is, it services to overshadow those roles. Mobility makes sense for a Warframe like Frost, who is a Flexible Defense Warframe. But it doesn't make as much sense for Vauban, who is a Power Defense Warframe. Yes, it still helps both of them, but so too would be if we just gave them god-mode, and that would be imbalanced, just like Vauban having the speed of Frost is an 'imbalance'. That doesn't mean Vauban shouldn't have bullet-jump, I just think Warframes should have a stamina that determines when they can bullet jump, with more flexible Warframes being able to bullet-jump maybe two or three times in quick succession, and others being limited to only being able to bullet-jump once before requiring a full recovery of stamina.

This last point you have has no bearing on Warframe; Dark Souls and Warframe approach the action genre balance matrices differently. Warframe has the players playing as 'Mastery' role; we have access to and the ability to completely enact any other Role (offense, defense, support, control, immortal, mastery) and any form of Method (power, flexibility, precision), which is reflected by many parts of the game as well as the age old mantra of "Play the way you want". Dark Souls, however, is entirely oriented towards flexibility; players are allowed any role, but they are only able to enact the method of Flexibility, but Dark Souls is balanced around that and Warframe is not.

This is why Warframe has a problem, and Dark Souls does not. Warframe's core design is that of an Orthogonal one; every element of the game has a unique role and purpose that makes it inherently better at dealing with certain elements, and being inherently worse against certain element. Things like 'mandatory' mods and unrestricted enhanced mobility break that balance by overshadowing intended balanced parameters.(ie, Power overcomes Precision by utilizing overly flexible movement, despite Precision being the main counter to Power; Flexibility counters Power by having the numerical damage advantage of Precision while maintaining all of its main strengths, etc). And you can't have it both ways.

Also, no, it's not a good idea to make Offense play Defense and Defense play Offense. You can make Defense play aggressively, but you can't make it play on the offense, because at that point it would be overpowered, which is something that already exists in Warframe and is already one of the reasons for the exceptional amount of weapon favoritism.

 

34 minutes ago, (PS4)Colloquial_Bloke said:

These problems exist in nearly every PvP.  Not every weapon is "top tier".  High damage, slow firing weapons are favored by skilled players in nearly every shooting game.  If you hit your shot, the enemy is dead without being able to retaliate.

The PvP in Warframe feels unique, and it is.  Why would anyone want to changr it into something it wasn't meant to be?

The highly mobile, tense PvP moments are what keep me playing conclave.  The games where my enemies just stand still shooting aren't so much fun as they are target practice.

When people log into the conclave, and expect it to be like anything else they've played, they are setting themselves up for fa

Imbalance is not something that's a problem in nearly every PvP. Weapon favoritism is, but that just because most players lean towards things that make the game 'easier' to play, which is often flexibility and offense oriented. This is reflected in every action-genre game to date, spanning between FPS to RTS.

I have no problem with High damage, slow firing weapons. Those are not at all the weapons or effects I have any trouble with. My problem is there's too much freedom being given to Flexibility mechanics, such as the way the game overly rewards Assault Rifle type weapons, Bullet-Jumping, and some Flexible Warframes with little to no drawback, compared to their counterparts.

'Unique' does not mean a good game or a balanced game. The second sentence there is a loaded question. The developers could mean to do something, but that doesn't mean it's a good decision or that it reflects good game design. As a player of this game, I'm giving my feedback, "Why I don't like Conclave". If they don't take that information into any consideration, it's not my problem, it's their's.

You've enacted a strawman argument here; Do enemy players stand around in Halo? No, they're just not moving around and break-neck speeds, and inherently I don't have a problem with break-neck speeds as long as it's balanced, but in the case of Warframe, it's just not.

I don't expect Conclave to be like anything else I've played, I merely expect that it should be balanced, and there's a distinct rule-set out there of what is and is not balanced, and Conclave breaks that.

[(PSN)Colloquial_Bloke]

@Krion112

How much conclave do you play?  Auto Rifles are definitely not the most rewarding weapon typee.

"As a player of this game, I'm giving my feedback, "Why I don't like Conclave". If they don't take that information into any consideration, it's not my problem, it's their's."

That's an incredibly pompous statement.  Your opinion is the gold standard?

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by (PS4)Colloquial_Bloke

[(PSN)rowansprite]

6 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

-snip-

In the end, the biggest problem with balancing weapons in Warframe, such as the Tetra, is that it would be quite literally impossible to both make weapons have unique roles AND make them balanced compared to other weapons simultaneously. That is, unless DE were to drastically reduce the number of weapons, but I don't think that's gonna happen. Warframes are more flexible in this regard since they're not as limited in what they can potentially do, so it's much easier to make a frame that's both balanced and unique to all others. Which, generally speaking, is the case, though there are some exceptions (Wukong vs Valkyr comes to mind).

Honestly though, I could completely get behind a stanima system for parkour maneuvers. I don't think I would want it as restricted as you're suggesting, but I could definitely see it being a viable option for balancing out the PvP. I definitely do NOT want a return of parkour 1.0 though, so as long as it applied to the current system as you're suggesting, it'd be fine. Urgh, coptering was awful.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

Conclave is a lost cause, they really need to face the reality and this isn't some blind hatred, this is coming from someone who has all the armors and a few of the cosmetics I liked. My whole experience throughout has been "meh" and they will never overcome one of the major problems/hurdles associated with conclave.

This game wasn't built from the ground up for PVP, period.

To even begin to make conclave more enjoyable, you would have to be a game grown up suited for conclave and that's not happening.

There are also too many problems that come with going from PVE to PVP, such as warframe abilities, how things change drastically compared to their PVE counterparts, same goes for weapons.

People can say how much they love the speed in conclave and that's what draws them to it but for a majority of the other players, adapting to that is both impossible and not rewarding. If I play PVE, what do I gain from being able to adapt to the PVP gameplay? Skins? That's cool and all but the time spent in conclave leaves me right where I started in PVE. I'm not gaining much in the terms of resources and there's only a few mods that can go from pvp to pve.

Edited February 5, 2017 by (PS4)AllOrNothinDays