Ember rework

[CHEEESE]

Okay, warframe is not about hardcore gaming, but about space ninjas kill hundreds of poor mobs in beautiful way.

But ember and equinox final abilities make it all too easy. You just need to push 1 button to win the game. Pretty much whole game going around on low levels, even if you are highrank - alerts, sindicate missions, etc. And on that levels players with Equinox and, especially, Embers are killing the interest. Just one such guy can burn/cut any mob on the map with his ability on, and other players can do nothing about that. One guy killing everyone with just running around - you dont need to shoot or draw your sword, you can just relax and watch. Yes, its easy way to farm and fast run on missions - but its not korean mmo, i guess. We are space ninjas, we need action, and Ember gamestyle taking it away from us.

So, my suggestion is at least increase energy consumption of 4'rd abilities of Ember and Equinox - just to make it not so infinite. Let them use it only when its hardly needed, not everytime.

At max - completely rework it. One button and wasd must be not enough to win everything.

[NekroArts]

I'm gonna assume that this is happening at the lower-mid level missions.

[CHEEESE]

"Pretty much whole game going around on low levels, even if you are highrank - alerts, sindicate missions, etc. And on that levels players with Equinox and, especially, Embers are killing the interest. "

That's how i see it. Even on lower-mid levels we need to shoot, not just watch how embers burning entire map and wait for end of the mission.

Edited February 6, 2017 by CHEEESE

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

Equinox's needs charginging for main to be effective, which means killing manually, ember's risk is shes fraile so you put range on her which weakens her abilitys or risk being shot from afar. Point being these ability already have large drawback to them, it does require some work trying to mitigate them.

[CHEEESE]

Drawback can be seen on 50+ levels, below that Embers and Equinoxes are absolutely interest killers, exceptionally, i guess, for new players.

Dont see much of Equinoxes on low level missions, by the way, but Embers are everywhere, used by high-ranks to quickly complete alert/syndicate missions wihout excess use of their fingers.

Same thing happened some time ago with mesa's ult and mag dragging energry blobs for her - game became look more like a conveyer, not an action-slasher. DE fixed it, nerfed mag's first ability. My opinion - this is a very similar case. Action game must be action game, not a "press x to win" simulator.

[Trickst3rGawd]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Equinox's needs charginging for main to be effective, which means killing manually, ember's risk is shes fraile so you put range on her which weakens her abilitys or risk being shot from afar. Point being these ability already have large drawback to them, it does require some work trying to mitigate them.

^^ 

[CHEEESE]

Just now, CHEEESE said:

Drawback can be seen on 50+ levels, below that Embers and Equinoxes are absolutely interest killers, exceptionally, i guess, for new players.

Dont see much of Equinoxes on low level missions, by the way, but Embers are everywhere, used by high-ranks to quickly complete alert/syndicate missions wihout excess use of their fingers.

Same thing happened some time ago with mesa's ult and mag dragging energry blobs for her - game became look more like a conveyer, not an action-slasher. DE fixed it, nerfed mag's first ability. My opinion - this is a very similar case. Action game must be action game, not a "press x to win" simulator.

^^

[CHEEESE]

Ash's ult is good example too - was too easy to use. Now its not. So i wonder why "World on fire" is still so effective and easy to use.

[Chipputer]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Equinox's needs charginging for main to be effective, which means killing manually, ember's risk is shes fraile so you put range on her which weakens her abilitys or risk being shot from afar. Point being these ability already have large drawback to them, it does require some work trying to mitigate them.

If you honestly think that Ember's fragility somehow negates how powerful her WoF builds can be, then have I got news for you.

You can, effectively, forego the use of Firequake and have what amounts to 250% power strength (which is pretty much a guaranteed burn proc) which allows you to CC anything that isn't immune. Add to that the amount of damage that WoF does with 250% power strength, toss on a few Accelerant casts (which are CC in and of themselves, to boot), and use some survivability mods and you have an effective killing and CC machine that does not go down as easily as some people seem to think, particularly those that run level 100 missions with only base health and shields and don't manage to be effective in the slightest.

[Trickst3rGawd]

2 minutes ago, CHEEESE said:

Ash's ult is good example too - was too easy to use. Now its not. So i wonder why "World on fire" is still so effective and easy to use.

Equinox is fine :P , she`s interactive and has to work for her nuke so I say we should leave her. And even if your little made up tweak was to apply to her people would just use synoid simulor for more energy lol. Something does have to be done about Ember tho

[(PSN)HarryMuff]

This affects you how? Please be quiet and stop calling for a nerf on anything other players find to be effective. Nobody is making you use either Equinox or Ember.

[Trickst3rGawd]

Just now, (PS4)HarryMuff said:

This affects you how? Please be quiet and stop calling for a nerf on anything other players find to be effective. Nobody is making you use either Equinox or Ember.

^^ And no one is making you play with them either.

[-Kryptyk-]

18 minutes ago, CHEEESE said:

Drawback can be seen on 50+ levels, below that Embers and Equinoxes are absolutely interest killers, exceptionally, i guess, for new players.

Dont see much of Equinoxes on low level missions, by the way, but Embers are everywhere, used by high-ranks to quickly complete alert/syndicate missions wihout excess use of their fingers.

Same thing happened some time ago with mesa's ult and mag dragging energry blobs for her - game became look more like a conveyer, not an action-slasher. DE fixed it, nerfed mag's first ability. My opinion - this is a very similar case. Action game must be action game, not a "press x to win" simulator.

 

11 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

If you honestly think that Ember's fragility somehow negates how powerful her WoF builds can be, then have I got news for you.

You can, effectively, forego the use of Firequake and have what amounts to 250% power strength (which is pretty much a guaranteed burn proc) which allows you to CC anything that isn't immune. Add to that the amount of damage that WoF does with 250% power strength, toss on a few Accelerant casts (which are CC in and of themselves, to boot), and use some survivability mods and you have an effective killing and CC machine that does not go down as easily as some people seem to think, particularly those that run level 100 missions with only base health and shields and don't manage to be effective in the slightest.

ember prime main speaking here lol at max dps, her 4 ticks around 900 damage per tick, with a chance of proc'ing fire (it's not guaranteed - 35% chance to be exact, per wiki).  The accelerant brings the dps to around 4500/tick, which is enough to wipe out enemies up to level 40.  Past that, it's not enough to carry her into high level without the cc of Firequake, and she becomes a CC frame instead of dps.  I find it much more useful right out of the gate to go in as CC with a firequake build, even on low level missions, where she's supposed to be a dps.  

So yes, she's set up to be an agile dps frame.  That's literally her role, but at the expense of being incredibly squishy.  She's only got 125 armor, and an average health pool that won't get her far (unless you know how to keep moving in the air, where the passive evasion kicks in).  You can't claim a dps character needs a nerf when 1) their role is being easily fulfilled, and 2) the damage caps off right where high level starts.  You MIGHT be lucky enough to bring a dps build into the first sortie, but beyond that?  She's only high level content worthy with the cc.

SO don't ask for a nerf of something that doesn't need it, yeah?  If you only play low level missions, you won't get an accurate representation of what any frame can actually do... or not do, for that matter.  Build your squad around the dps - not every member of the squad needs to get the most kills.  Squad composition is a thing.  

fun fact - we took a cc ember to a 90 minute survival not too long ago.  guess who didn't get the most damage?  the ember lol but if it weren't for the cc, our squad comp would not have worked.

also fun fact - equinox is a rare sight to begin with.  there aren't many players who have fully mastered her dual healing AND offense sets to be effective, let alone farmed for all her parts in a boss fight that's further along in the game.  Ember's boss farm is sitting at a mid-to-low tier in the game, so low leveled people who don't have every single powerhouse mod like the vets can get used to running a dps frame.  

Edited February 7, 2017 by -V3n0m-

[CHEEESE]

1 minute ago, (PS4)HarryMuff said:

This affects you how? Please be quiet and stop calling for a nerf on anything other players find to be effective. Nobody is making you use either Equinox or Ember.

This affects me directly. Warframe is a team game where up to 4 players play together. When one of them is Ember and mission level is beyond 50-60 - game for other 3 players (me is one of them, got it?) is over, because every mob is dead and map is empty.

I predict wise advices about playing solo, but, as you know, mobs count scales with players count. So its not so interesting to play with 3,5 mobs whom game sends to fight 1 player.

[Chipputer]

3 minutes ago, -V3n0m- said:

it's not guaranteed - 35% chance to be exact, per wiki).

It goes up with power strength, meaning you're not wrong, you're just not right.

What you main has nothing to do with the amount of knowledge and experience you have. Ember is a powerhouse when built properly and removes a large amount of interactivity from the combat when in use. This is a problem and needs to be changed, particularly when you look at what they've done with Bladestorm.

EDIT:

This build definitely only has a 35% chance to proc fire and definitely doesn't decimate everything through Sortie 3 with next to no effort, pretty much requiring me to just aim and shoot at the helplessly flailing enemies while the small fries get roasted and toasted in the crossfire. But please do tell me more about who you main.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Chipputer

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

56 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

I'm gonna assume that this is happening at the lower-mid level missions.

*With a endgame loadout of mods.

[-Kryptyk-]

10 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

It goes up with power strength, meaning you're not wrong, you're just not right.

What you main has nothing to do with the amount of knowledge and experience you have. Ember is a powerhouse when built properly and removes a large amount of interactivity from the combat when in use. This is a problem and needs to be changed, particularly when you look at what they've done with Bladestorm.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Ember 

As someone who's been playing ember prime for over two years and studying her wiki page, yes, I do happen to know a thing or two about her lol :P the 35% chance to proc is the highest percentage it reaches when fully leveled - the consistent damage her 4 does IS heat, but it's only a base heat elemental damage until it actually procs the status effect, which means it doesn't have a high damage buff percentage against enemy factions (except infested).  When in any extended mission where enemies scale, 35% isn't enough cc to keep her from getting hit, which is why I said it may be best to opt for the cc firequake build so you can still get damage out of her 4 but also have a 100% forced knockdown on all enemies hit.  On armored targets?  Good luck getting past the armor with fire damage past level 30-40.

might want to refresh yourself on how elemental and status damage types work, btw -> http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Elemental_Damage#Elemental_Damage

On the topic of bladestorm, it was turned into a more assassination ability, which is what ash was originally designed for.  Can you still use it in high level content when you're getting swarmed with enemies?  Absolutely, but at least it's more specific to his kit than it used to be.

-edit- no need to be sassy or salty.  lol

Edited February 7, 2017 by -V3n0m-

[CHEEESE]

14 minutes ago, -V3n0m- said:

 

ember prime main speaking here lol at max dps, her 4 ticks around 900 damage per tick, with a chance of proc'ing fire (it's not guaranteed - 35% chance to be exact, per wiki).  The accelerant brings the dps to around 4500/tick, which is enough to wipe out enemies up to level 40.  Past that, it's not enough to carry her into high level without the cc of Firequake, and she becomes a CC frame instead of dps.  I find it much more useful right out of the gate to go in as CC with a firequake build, even on low level missions, where she's supposed to be a dps.  

So yes, she's set up to be an agile dps frame.  That's literally her role, but at the expense of being incredibly squishy.  She's only got 125 armor, and an average health pool that won't get her far (unless you know how to keep moving in the air, where the passive evasion kicks in).  You can't claim a dps character needs a nerf when 1) their role is being easily fulfilled, and 2) the damage caps off right where high level starts.  You MIGHT be lucky enough to bring a dps build into the first sortie, but beyond that?  She's only high level content worthy with the cc.

SO don't ask for a nerf of something that doesn't need it, yeah?  If you only play low level missions, you won't get an accurate representation of what any frame can actually do... or not do, for that matter.  Build your squad around the dps - not every member of the squad needs to get the most kills.  Squad composition is a thing.  

fun fact - we took a cc ember to a 90 minute survival not too long ago.  guess who didn't get the most damage?  the ember lol but if it weren't for the cc, our squad comp would not have worked.

also fun fact - equinox is a rare sight to begin with.  there aren't many players who have fully mastered her dual healing AND offense sets to be effective, let alone farmed for all her parts in a boss fight that's further along in the game.  Ember's boss farm is sitting at a mid-to-low tier in the game, so low leveled people who don't have every single powerhouse mod like the vets can get used to running a dps frame.  

My rank is 19 and i can say that i dont play only low-level missions, yeah.

Once again - i dont talk about nerfing damage or something. My main claim is physical easyness of delivering that damage and CC with firequake build. Push one button at the beginning of the game to fullfill the role? Seriously? What are we playing here?

Edited February 7, 2017 by CHEEESE

[-Kryptyk-]

6 minutes ago, CHEEESE said:

My rank is 19 and i can say that i dont play only low-level missions, yeah.

Once again - i dont talk about nerfing damage or something. My main claim is physical easyness of delivering that damage and CC with firequake build. Push one button at the beginning of the game? Seriously? What are we playing here?

so you're looking for something more along the lines of what they did to Saryn or Mag? o.o  Again, Ember drops from a mid-low tiered boss fight for the newer players to get their hands on a dps frame and get used to playing that role.  They don't have any heavy dps frames that drop until Saturn.  If they want to continue using her later on, they definitely can, albeit there are some other characters that do way more dps than her (looking at you, excalibur and mesa) where you only need to hit one or two buttons as well.

With ember, it's not just about hitting 4.  You have to use all her abilities to synergize together and stay mobile, which the latter is something that can be difficult to learn for a new player.  Some dps characters don't even have to stay as mobile as her to stay alive.  I'd say she balances out quite well.  But of course everything you use is going to steamroll low tiered missions no matter what you do.  I can take my mk-1 braton and steamroll everything.  

Edited February 7, 2017 by -V3n0m-

[Second_Measure]

As a Nidus player, a 'Press 4 and Cruise Control through the map' - Ember is the bane of my existance. Since she also kills enemies outside the Line of Sight makes it impossible for me to gain Mutation Stacks, basically crippling my Frame's usefulness.

[-Kryptyk-]

2 minutes ago, Second_Measure said:

As a Nidus player, a 'Press 4 and Cruise Control through the map' - Ember is the bane of my existance. Since she also kills enemies outside the Line of Sight makes it impossible for me to gain Mutation Stacks, basically crippling my Frame's usefulness.

and that would be an example of a non-synergistic squad composition.  not everything in the game is meant to be effective with each other.  two dps frames just end up fighting for damage for a while... at least until later on.

[Second_Measure]

19 minutes ago, -V3n0m- said:

and that would be an example of a non-synergistic squad composition.  not everything in the game is meant to be effective with each other.  two dps frames just end up fighting for damage for a while... at least until later on.

There's a difference of not being in synergy with certain frames and making the frame you play unfun because the kit of a different one denies yours completely.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Second_Measure

[CHEEESE]

20 minutes ago, -V3n0m- said:

With ember, it's not just about hitting 4.  You have to use all her abilities to synergize together and stay mobile, which the latter is something that can be difficult to learn for a new player.  Some dps characters don't even have to stay as mobile as her to stay alive.  I'd say she balances out quite well.  But of course everything you use is going to steamroll low tiered missions no matter what you do.  I can take my mk-1 braton and steamroll everything.  

You clearly dont understand what i mean, because we play this awesome game diffirently. For me - its action with rpg elements; for you - its mmorpg with action elements, i think.

I say that killing everyone on the map even on <40 lvl must be fun, not just one-button farm.

You say about stats and roles, useless (by my opinion) before 100 lvl and sorties.

Yes, taking mk-1 braton and steamrolling everyone is fun, because you run, jump and shoot! For me, warframe is about steamrolling, but in a beautiful ninja way with chopped off heads, katanas and gun-kata. Put aside raids and sorties, Ember is not about that. Ember is about "run through mission with one hand on keyboard and one hand holding cup of tea". But Ember in the team force everyone to play this way. And this is bad.

Edited February 7, 2017 by CHEEESE

[(PSN)salovel1991]

How about we just nerf everything?! Nidus, Ember, Mirage, Mesa(again). Nerf everything that does DPS! Nerf all the things! Boltor, Soma, Simulor, Tonkor, Triple nerf for Tigris! Nerf everything! Nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf. Let's nerf it all to pillows and feathers and call it Slumberpartyframe. Because that's how everyone sounds right now. Tell me what frame you like? I'll go make a post about it needing nerfed because it out does something I like. While we're at it let's nerf everything that deals more than 2,000 damage, buff the enemies, and remove all the abilities. While we're at it lets give every enemy a spot we have to shoot or they remain invulnerable. I mean EVERY enemy. My goodness does this sum up the forums yet? 

[Second_Measure]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

How about we just nerf everything?! Nidus, Ember, Mirage, Mesa(again). Nerf everything that does DPS! Nerf all the things! Boltor, Soma, Simulor, Tonkor, Triple nerf for Tigris! Nerf everything! Nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf. Let's nerf it all to pillows and feathers and call it Slumberpartyframe. Because that's how everyone sounds right now. Tell me what frame you like? I'll go make a post about it needing nerfed because it out does something I like. While we're at it let's nerf everything that deals more than 2,000 damage, buff the enemies, and remove all the abilities. While we're at it lets give every enemy a spot we have to shoot or they remain invulnerable. I mean EVERY enemy. My goodness does this sum up the forums yet? 

Such a childish rant.

If you can't attack the argument in a meaningful way and provide feedback, you'd better be off the forum yourself.