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Why Conclave Sucks and How To Fix It: ONE CHANGE ONLY


Xaxma
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Remove the ability to jump.

Seriously.

It's that simple.

That's all that needs to be done to make this game mode have any sense of tempo and strategy.

Currently, it has no strategic value and it lives on as a sh*tstorm of chaos with methed up robots flipping out everywhere having spray fights for about five minutes until one of the players gets lucky and happens to land enough shots to kill the other. The one thing people value in most FPS games is tempo and strategy; simply put, if you run out there like a maniac, you're going to be easy pickings, but in this game mode, it's encouraged to go ball-off-the-walls because it's the only way to get results. The players are encouraged to use spam heavy or spread heavy type weapons and just try to guide it into enemies, which leaves most weapon types out of the question; you are putting yourself at a disadvantage using anything else. Good luck trying to hit anybody with single shot weapons when you have enemies who can fly in one direction at a 100 mph, and then suddenly shift in a zig zag pattern in the opposite direction, do a back flip midair, pour himself a cup of coffee with his elbows, and then finally land with a slide into another bullet jump, and all the while, he's been shooting his Soma Prime at you ...

(Just an average game in Conclave)

the-boondocks-nigga-moment-o.gif

There's very little room for encouragement regarding co-operative set ups like the sort you'd find in team compositions such as TF2, Overwatch, and CSGO. Everyone has a job in these sorts of games, and in Warframe, the job is indeed there for PvE content, but this philosophy is completely thrown out the window in PvP. In games like those, what we've learned is that the player's ability has strong limitations regarding things like mobility and independence, which I feel like alienates a massive portion of players in this game, whom are mainly co-op enthusiasts. This explains Conclave's terrible reputation and unpopularity. That's why, instead of focusing on the strength of the individual, most shooter type PvP games focus on good teamwork to achieve victory, which I feel like is a pretty standard concept, but it's not apparent here. Everyone can basically move, shoot, and jump the exact same way. Simply put, I'm more afraid of an enemy's ability to jump than I am afraid of their picks. Who cares if they're playing Banshee or Volt or whatever when they can deny everything I want to do by abusing the movement engine?

Yes, we do have things like abilities, but I don't feel like they are making as strong of an impact in matches as they should be, if they are being used at all. Worse yet, it's impossible to tell who's going to be on your team without a proper matchmaking system, so team compositions are nonexistent and left to chance, which is not even as strong of a point as it should be considering most people are going to be rushing in with Valkyr/Rhino and using a Braton/Tigris anyway. But this is another topic entirely ...

I understand this isn't a FPS game, but the concept is close enough to make a comparison if you ask me. It's always good to experiment and explore and try to be unique, but core human functions like teamwork are ultimately going to prevail in the satisfaction department, and Conclave doesn't represent that with its drone-like gameplay with players/teammates not giving a damn about what happens to one another, and I feel like a strong factor in that is merely the illusion of infinite potential and power stemming from our PvE expectations.

(Teamwork is a nice thing. Make you feel good. Everyone is happy. (Except the losers))

3-1C3l.gif

Remove jumping.

There are other things that need to be done as well, but this would be a good starting point for the core of it.

Edited by Xaxma
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1 minute ago, Phasedragon said:

Since you're so keen on players having jobs as if this was a class based shooter, get inaros. Devour roots enemies to the ground and stops them from jumping. That's your job, have fun.

It kind of is.

We like having comps in our PvE games, so why isn't this strongly emphasized in our PvP?

You'll have a bad time in some missions if everyone runs high damage, squishy frames, but throw in a Frost and a Trinity, and everything is peachy.

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4 minutes ago, Xaxma said:

It kind of is.

We like having comps in our PvE games, so why isn't this strongly emphasized in our PvP?

You'll have a bad time in some missions if everyone runs high damage, squishy frames, but throw in a Frost and a Trinity, and everything is peachy.

Because abilities weren't designed for pvp. Sure they were balanced to an extent, but not originally designed. Just look at all the things that overwatch's characters do: barriers, heals over time, speed boosts, all the abilities dedicated to mobility, etc. Warframe abilities are instead designed to kill massive hordes of AI. Things like immediately heal your entire team to full health, immediately kill anything in your sight, get over 95% damage resistance if not full invincibility, etc. 

 

Point is, in order to make this more like a class based shooter, you can't just remove one little thing that's "holding it back", you would have to actually deal with the classes. They would have to be completely scrapped and redone, then built from the ground up for pvp. It would be a massive undertaking, and at the end of it, it wouldn't even feel like warframe anymore.

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6 minutes ago, Phasedragon said:

Because abilities weren't designed for pvp. Sure they were balanced to an extent, but not originally designed. Just look at all the things that overwatch's characters do: barriers, heals over time, speed boosts, all the abilities dedicated to mobility, etc. Warframe abilities are instead designed to kill massive hordes of AI. Things like immediately heal your entire team to full health, immediately kill anything in your sight, get over 95% damage resistance if not full invincibility, etc. 

 

Point is, in order to make this more like a class based shooter, you can't just remove one little thing that's "holding it back", you would have to actually deal with the classes. They would have to be completely scrapped and redone, then built from the ground up for pvp. It would be a massive undertaking, and at the end of it, it wouldn't even feel like warframe anymore.

Sure it can feel like Warframe. You're right, it would take more than simply removing the ridiculous jumping, but it's a good start, as I've said in the OP.

You can just manipulate movement of each frame independently from there on as needed, but it would stop having tanks flying at the same speed as damage dealers and so on.

No matter which way you want to look at it, Conclave just doesn't need to operate on the same system. We need balance regarding certain roles, objectives, and to emphasize ability use more than having individual ability matter. You can have abilities buffed and remain as spectacular as they are in PvE if they worked on things like CDs and were balanced around the fact that it isn't as simple as merely bullet jumping away when you see someone using an ability. It would be strategic if players were more deadly when outnumbered and outplayed than if people were simply outclassed on an individual basis.

Edited by Xaxma
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I don't get why PvE fans want to change PvP so badly. Movement speed and shooting is what draws most PvP'ers to this game mode, it is what draws me, the fast paced shooting that its in this game. I don't want this another boring first person shooter that usually the one that sees the other one first is the one that wins the encounter and pretty much less another Overwatch. I don't like Overwatch because is so team dependent heavy and I like to hold my own in any situation. You are already at a disavantage when outnumbered so there you have that. The only thing that Conclave needs is more stuff added to it, nothing more.

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3 hours ago, Xaxma said:

That's all that needs to be done to make this game mode have any sense of tempo and strategy.
The one thing people value in most FPS games is tempo and strategy...

First of all, that's two things.
One: "tempo"
Two: "strategy"
Today's episode of Sesame Street has been brought to you by the letter K and the number 7.

Secondly, are you sure about tempo and strategy?
FPS players focus on tempo and strategy? Are you really sure?
You didn't, perhaps, grossly misspell "accuracy", "mobility", or "reflexes"?
Maybe you thought you were in this forum, or this forum?

Certainly there's a place for tactics in "most FPS games", but I feel like we've overlooked a few other things.

3 hours ago, Xaxma said:

The players are encouraged to use spam heavy or spread heavy type weapons and just try to guide it into enemies, which leaves most weapon types out of the question; you are putting yourself at a disadvantage using anything else. Good luck trying to hit anybody with single shot weapons when you have enemies who can [be subject to hyperbole]

I seem to be doing just fine with my sniper.
Guess that's what happens when you prioritize accuracy over "tempo".

3 hours ago, Xaxma said:

There's very little room for encouragement regarding co-operative set ups like the sort you'd find in team compositions such as TF2, Overwatch, and CSGO.

Maybe that's because Warframe isn't a team-based shooter.

3 hours ago, Xaxma said:

In games like [TF2, Overwatch, and CSGO], what we've learned is that the player's ability has strong limitations regarding things like mobility and independence, which I feel like alienates a massive portion of players in this game, whom are mainly co-op enthusiasts.

Except Warframe's PvE also allows players to exercise a great amount of mobility and independence, as is apparent to anyone who has ever played PvE.
That's why we have complaints about "rushers" and "hallway heroes": because Warframe doesn't limit players' mobility or independence.

3 hours ago, Xaxma said:

Simply put, I'm more afraid of an enemy's ability to jump than I am afraid of their picks. Who cares if they're playing Banshee or Volt or whatever when they can deny everything I want to do by abusing the movement engine?

Good. I'd rather have victory be dependent on personal skill than on "My Warframe happens to counter your Warframe, looks like you lost this round of rock-paper-scissors."

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Warframe doesn't limit teamwork in any way.

 

If you want to play more as a team try communicating with your team and play more with friends.

For encouragement, you are the encourage, helping another player can have a very positive effect and encourage that player to do the same.

The other day, I was teaming with a Frost using Oberon, he shielded the team I secured the ground and healed the team. There was an Ash on our team, he didn't have the abilities we had to help each other, he decided to camp with us anyway.

Teamwork can be very powerful, let the other team go nuts eventually their play with change when they see you synergizing your play with your teammates and dominating, the only other options besides upping their play is to leave match or lose. <-- Encouragement for the opponents to work as a team

Just try a lobby, your team is maybe... Frost, Oberon, Vauban and Trinity get the lead then camp it, watch the aftermath. I know this wouldn't usually be the team you get, this is just an example of how powerful team play can be.

As for the more random matches, I'm sure there is a lot of team play capabilities with even the most horrible comps you can think of.

The level of team play is in your hands.

 

This game is about having options, players being able to play however they like, if they don't want to work as a team, you still can.

DE has said they wanted a game for everyone to enjoy, that's the focus.

 

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I don't play Conclave, but it seems a little weird to suggest removal of jumping. I mean, based on my experience in PvE, Warframe is mostly about jumping, doing flips, and moving erratically, with a little bit of shooting and stabbing on the side when you're forced to do so. Making PvP drastically different would be pretty jarring. :D

Edited by (XB1)CannyJack
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1 minute ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

I don't play Conclave, but it seems a little weird to suggest removal of jumping. I mean, based on my experience in PvE, Warframe is mostly about jumping, doing flips, and moving erratically, with a little bit of shooting and stabbing on the side when you're forced to do so. Making PvP drastically different would be pretty jarring. :D

 

The movement in PvP ends up simply going too far. The multiple jumps, bullet jumps, rolls and instantaneous direction changes are so severe that it causes the character models to glitch out and ends up looking stupid. Totally removing the ability to jump is probably too far, but the current situation is really just a caricature of real PvP.

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On 2/8/2017 at 2:08 PM, Kierlak said:

The movement in PvP ends up simply going too far. The multiple jumps, bullet jumps, rolls and instantaneous direction changes are so severe that it causes the character models to glitch out and ends up looking stupid. Totally removing the ability to jump is probably too far, but the current situation is really just a caricature of real PvP.

What are you talking about?
The movement mechanics are the same as in PvE. There's no special "PvP triple jump".
Where's the evidence for these glitches you're talking about? I've seen no such thing.


14 hours ago, Kierlak said:

Ok? I don't know what prompted that outburst, because I didn't say anything abut a triple jump.

You claimed that "the movement in PvP ends up simply going too far".
I merely pointed out that movement in PvP goes exactly as far as movement in PvE, and no further.
It's not difficult to understand.

14 hours ago, Kierlak said:

Just going to pretend you don't notice the micro-rubberbanding and 'shuddering' during extreme parkour, eh?

That's very rare, and it's caused by lag, not mobility mechanics.
It happens when laggy players walk around, too. Are you about to tell me that walking constitutes "extreme parkour" in your eyes?

Edited by SevenLetterKWord
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19 hours ago, (PS4)TheKiller9805 said:

I don't get why PvE fans want to change PvP so badly. Movement speed and shooting is what draws most PvP'ers to this game mode, it is what draws me, the fast paced shooting that its in this game. I don't want this another boring first person shooter that usually the one that sees the other one first is the one that wins the encounter and pretty much less another Overwatch. I don't like Overwatch because is so team dependent heavy and I like to hold my own in any situation. You are already at a disavantage when outnumbered so there you have that. The only thing that Conclave needs is more stuff added to it, nothing more.

"PvE fans" would be more than happy to leave Conclave alone if DE isn't so busy trying to shove it down our throats times and times again. I'd even wager most of us would tolerate DE spending dev time and resource into it like I would.

That said, saying "remove jumping" is the instant magic fix of Conclave is just silly.

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3 minutes ago, Mattoropael said:

"PvE fans" would be more than happy to leave Conclave alone if DE isn't so busy trying to shove it down our throats times and times again.

Right, maybe DE should place trigger warnings in front of their optional free rewards so that nobody feels threatened by the patriarchy's irrumatio.

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1 hour ago, Mattoropael said:

DE isn't so busy trying to shove it down our throats times and times again

No one is shoving things to your throaths, you play it bacause you feel the need to obtain those items that doesn't impact PvE in any way. Orokin catalysts and reactors costs a mere 20 platinums that you can easily obtain by selling any set or mod in the trade chat.

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11 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Right, maybe DE should place trigger warnings in front of their optional free rewards so that nobody feels threatened by the patriarchy's irrumatio.

 

10 hours ago, (PS4)TheKiller9805 said:

No one is shoving things to your throaths, you play it bacause you feel the need to obtain those items that doesn't impact PvE in any way. Orokin catalysts and reactors costs a mere 20 platinums that you can easily obtain by selling any set or mod in the trade chat.

 

Say whatever you want about how this isn't DE trying to shove it down our throats, because it hardly matters to what I'm trying to convey. This is what a lot of PvE players feel and as long as DE keeps pulling this kind of stuff, expect Conclave flaming to continue harder than people complaining about legit balancing issues in PvE.

Edited by Mattoropael
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12 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

There's no special "PvP triple jump".

 

Ok? I don't know what prompted that outburst, because I didn't say anything abut a triple jump.

 

12 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Where's the evidence for these glitches you're talking about? I've seen no such thing.

 

Just going to pretend you don't notice the micro-rubberbanding and 'shuddering' during extreme parkour, eh?

 

12 hours ago, SevenLetterKWord said:

Right, maybe DE should place trigger warnings in front of their optional free rewards 

 

Or maybe DE should remove all reward from PvP completely, and avoid this entire problem. Let the sideshow remain JUST a sideshow.

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19 hours ago, Kierlak said:

The movement in PvP ends up simply going too far

6 hours ago, Kierlak said:

Ok? I don't know what prompted that outburst, because I didn't say anything abut a triple jump.

The movement in PvP is almost identical to movement in PvE. By saying movement in PvP ends up going too far, which implies that you don't also think PvE movement goes too far, implies that movement in PvP has something that PvE doesn't, which is false. This is what lead to SevenLetterKWord's response stating there is no triple jump.

5 hours ago, Kierlak said:

Just going to pretend you don't notice the micro-rubberbanding and 'shuddering' during extreme parkour, eh?

If you have evidence of such a bug, please report it in the bugs section.

I have never seen an example of this during my game play or on the forums, so if it's a new bug, you should report it.

6 hours ago, Kierlak said:

Or maybe DE should remove all reward from PvP completely, and avoid this entire problem. Let the sideshow remain JUST a sideshow.

What kind of sophistry is this?

Maybe DE should remove all reward from the game completely, and avoid all problems. Games are meant to be played for fun; if people need rewards in order to play a game, then they aren't actually having fun playing the game. Let the game remain JUST a game.

/sarcasm

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  • 1 month later...

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO 

We dont need another CoD game what really frustrate me is when cod players come to warframe and complain about the movement.

1. Warframe is a Space ninja game which means ninjas have more agility.

2. Why dose everything need to be on the ground i love cod games but it is getting kinda bored.

3. NO NO NO NO NO NON because if u do that that means auto users is going to be the cheapest way to kill 

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On 08.02.2017 at 4:27 AM, Xaxma said:

Sure it can feel like Warframe. You're right, it would take more than simply removing the ridiculous jumping, but it's a good start, as I've said in the OP.

Good start for melee spamming maybe.

If there's anything that should be done to jumping it's introducing stamina back exclusively to PvP. This will stop both mindless melee spamming and mindless jumping around.

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2 hours ago, Ksaero said:

Good start for melee spamming maybe.

If there's anything that should be done to jumping it's introducing stamina back exclusively to PvP. This will stop both mindless melee spamming and mindless jumping around.

I'm sure this idea has been shot down a couple of times before.

Edited by -----LegioN-----
Hello typo my old friend
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On 2/7/2017 at 7:03 PM, Xaxma said:

Remove the ability to jump.

Seriously.

It's that simple.

That's all that needs to be done to make this game mode have any sense of tempo and strategy.

Currently, it has no strategic value and it lives on as a sh*tstorm of chaos with methed up robots flipping out everywhere having spray fights for about five minutes until one of the players gets lucky and happens to land enough shots to kill the other. The one thing people value in most FPS games is tempo and strategy; simply put, if you run out there like a maniac, you're going to be easy pickings, but in this game mode, it's encouraged to go ball-off-the-walls because it's the only way to get results. The players are encouraged to use spam heavy or spread heavy type weapons and just try to guide it into enemies, which leaves most weapon types out of the question; you are putting yourself at a disadvantage using anything else. Good luck trying to hit anybody with single shot weapons when you have enemies who can fly in one direction at a 100 mph, and then suddenly shift in a zig zag pattern in the opposite direction, do a back flip midair, pour himself a cup of coffee with his elbows, and then finally land with a slide into another bullet jump, and all the while, he's been shooting his Soma Prime at you ...

(Just an average game in Conclave)

the-boondocks-nigga-moment-o.gif

There's very little room for encouragement regarding co-operative set ups like the sort you'd find in team compositions such as TF2, Overwatch, and CSGO. Everyone has a job in these sorts of games, and in Warframe, the job is indeed there for PvE content, but this philosophy is completely thrown out the window in PvP. In games like those, what we've learned is that the player's ability has strong limitations regarding things like mobility and independence, which I feel like alienates a massive portion of players in this game, whom are mainly co-op enthusiasts. This explains Conclave's terrible reputation and unpopularity. That's why, instead of focusing on the strength of the individual, most shooter type PvP games focus on good teamwork to achieve victory, which I feel like is a pretty standard concept, but it's not apparent here. Everyone can basically move, shoot, and jump the exact same way. Simply put, I'm more afraid of an enemy's ability to jump than I am afraid of their picks. Who cares if they're playing Banshee or Volt or whatever when they can deny everything I want to do by abusing the movement engine?

Yes, we do have things like abilities, but I don't feel like they are making as strong of an impact in matches as they should be, if they are being used at all. Worse yet, it's impossible to tell who's going to be on your team without a proper matchmaking system, so team compositions are nonexistent and left to chance, which is not even as strong of a point as it should be considering most people are going to be rushing in with Valkyr/Rhino and using a Braton/Tigris anyway. But this is another topic entirely ...

I understand this isn't a FPS game, but the concept is close enough to make a comparison if you ask me. It's always good to experiment and explore and try to be unique, but core human functions like teamwork are ultimately going to prevail in the satisfaction department, and Conclave doesn't represent that with its drone-like gameplay with players/teammates not giving a damn about what happens to one another, and I feel like a strong factor in that is merely the illusion of infinite potential and power stemming from our PvE expectations.

(Teamwork is a nice thing. Make you feel good. Everyone is happy. (Except the losers))

3-1C3l.gif

Remove jumping.

There are other things that need to be done as well, but this would be a good starting point for the core of it.

Causes we don't have enough COD in the world? 

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