Please DE, do something about sortie leeches!

[Wolfiusz]

45 minutes ago, (PS4)VanHorstmann90 said:

As I mentioned in my post above, interaction should be the key.
>snip<They couldn't scratch an enemy but at least they felt useful as support players and honestly earned their arcanes.

That's why I suggested this tactical score.

Totally agree with you there.

I recently had a sortie defense with quite a unique team. Me beeing Inaros, a Limbo, Trinity and Frost with CC icewave. Nuff said I was the one doing preety much all the killing, but I found my team to be one of the best I ever played with. Not to mention, it was the first ever sortie defense which was like a walk in the park. A team with players who know what they do and are damn good at it, makes the game so much more enjoyable.

What I'm trying to say: team members no matter what rank/weapons they have, can be insanely valuable if they know how to play right and specialise in a certain thing. That's exactly why I think a tactical score would be a better solution than killcounter. It would give a fair chance to people who are amazing at stuff other than killing.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Wolfiusz

[(PSN)VanHorstmann90]

16 minutes ago, Wolfiusz said:

That's why I suggested this tactical score.

I wasn't criticizing you, man.

Just saying we share the same vision....

[Wolfiusz]

Just now, (PS4)VanHorstmann90 said:

I wasn't criticizing you, man.

Just saying we share the same vision....

I know bro, sorry if my post was unclear :)

Rephrased it to avoid any further confusion.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Just leave them to die. For every PUG with Leeches, there's another PUG with three players ready to rock.

[Snib]

3 hours ago, Wolfiusz said:

That's why I suggested this tactical score.

Totally agree with you there.

I recently had a sortie defense with quite a unique team. Me beeing Inaros, a Limbo, Trinity and Frost with CC icewave. Nuff said I was the one doing preety much all the killing, but I found my team to be one of the best I ever played with. Not to mention, it was the first ever sortie defense which was like a walk in the park. A team with players who know what they do and are damn good at it, makes the game so much more enjoyable.

What I'm trying to say: team members no matter what rank/weapons they have, can be insanely valuable if they know how to play right and specialise in a certain thing. That's exactly why I think a tactical score would be a better solution than killcounter. It would give a fair chance to people who are amazing at stuff other than killing.

I understand what you're trying to do, but it just does not work. See, if I run a sortie defense and I decide not to solo it I'll still bring a frame that can solo it. The team's contribution is irrelevant. In fact they won't contribute anything unless they try to actively work against me.

So how do you want to score it? Why do you want to score it? Do you want to penalize them for not bringing kill frames? Penalize me for doing so? Either way would be bad. It just does not work. 

You cannot solve the problem of a few bad players by trying to regulate everybody else. Neither in games nor in real life.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Snib

[Wolfiusz]

40 minutes ago, Snib said:

I understand what you're trying to do,

Clearly you don't.

My system would work like that:

- You get a "score" after every mission depending on what you do.

- You get a score for kills, BUT ALSO for CC, healing etc. 

- This means that even if you kill 1000 enemies and someone in your team killed 1 he can still get a higher score than you if he healed alot of HP or was in any other way usefull for the team.

- Then the system matches players having a similar score range, so you get in a match with people who represent similar to your level (they don't have to be killframes, they can be masters of support)

- This encourages good players to stay good to have the most fun, it also encourages medium-level players to get better

-The only people that get penalised here are leeches (who don't do anything), because they get grouped with players who are exactly like them.

 

53 minutes ago, Snib said:

The team's contribution is irrelevant. In fact they won't contribute anything unless they try to actively work against me.

Well in that case just make everyone a favor and play solo. (then my system is irrelevant for you, so I don't understand why you even bothered to post)

 

49 minutes ago, Snib said:

You cannot solve the problem of a few bad players by trying to regulate everybody else. Neither in games nor in real life.

Actually I can (or rather, the devs can). I have seen a similar system beeing used in a few other games and it always worked perfectly fine (with 1 exception where the devs were too stubborn to listen to feedback). And it's not regulating. It's called "sorting". And it's actually used in real life aswell - at schools, or even in sport/e-sports.

[Snib]

29 minutes ago, Wolfiusz said:

Well in that case just make everyone a favor and play solo. (then my system is irrelevant for you, so I don't understand why you even bothered to post)

Oh great man. I suppose I can just refer you to where people suggested the same to you then? 

And since your system would affect every non-solo player's right to rewards obviously it would be relevant to all of us. One player on the team bringing an efficient kill frame would deny everybody else their rewards under your system (there is no healing/CC/etc. to do when everything is dead). So please do everyone a favour and take your own bad advice. Sheesh.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Snib

[Wolfiusz]

1 minute ago, Snib said:

And since your system would affect every non-solo player's right to loot obviously it would be relevant to all of us. One player on the team bringing an efficient kill frame would deny everybody else their loot under your system. So please do everyone a favour and take your own advice. Sheesh.

My system has nothing to do with loot. And as I said, killframes can be easilly outscored by support frames. So maybe you make everyone else a favor and learn to read. 

[Snib]

5 minutes ago, Wolfiusz said:

My system has nothing to do with loot. And as I said, killframes can be easilly outscored by support frames. So maybe you make everyone else a favor and learn to read. 

Ability to read, hmm? This thread is about loot (quoting the OP):

On 2/8/2017 at 1:12 AM, (Xbox One)Siniztah said:

I beleive there should be some sort of limit (15% of the kills in a mission) for example, to become eligible to get a reward.

I saw you suggest what will basically result in grouping kill frames with kill frames and support frames with support frames but that's so silly it doesn't even merit further comment.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Snib

[(PSN)VanHorstmann90]

4 minutes ago, Wolfiusz said:

My system has nothing to do with loot. And as I said, killframes can be easilly outscored by support frames. So maybe you make everyone else a favor and learn to read. 

I told you not to bother with them ahahahhahahah
Just like speaking to a wall of bricks.

[(PSN)VanHorstmann90]

1 minute ago, Snib said:

Ability to read, hmm? This entire thread is about loot:

 

Or you could just have followed the discussion. Killing enemies as a score was discarded at page one (on my browser at least) of the thread.

[Wolfiusz]

3 minutes ago, Snib said:

Ability to read, hmm? This thread is about loot (quoting the OP):

Did you even read the topics title? 

 OP mentions loot limitations to solve the leech problem. It was dissed entirely on the first page. Since the second page it's an actuall discussion about finding a leech problem solution.

4 minutes ago, Snib said:

I saw you suggest what will basically result in grouping kill frames with kill frames and support frames with support frames but that's so silly it doesn't even merit further comment.

The only thing that is getting silly is how hard for you is to understand this simple system.

My system matches players based on their "score", not by how they get the score. This means that a high-score killframe may be grouped with a high-score support frame. 

A similar system is used in Battlefield and guess what? There are no healer-only or sniper-only teams there, so apparently it works.

Did you get it now?

[Snib]

12 minutes ago, Wolfiusz said:

My system matches players based on their "score", not by how they get the score. This means that a high-score killframe may be grouped with a high-score support frame. 

And I refer to my first response to you that you dismissed in favour of personal attacks. Your system cannot work because support frames have nothing to support when grouped with kill frames. And that's not even considering that scoring a "support" equinox giving +80% power strength to the team but otherwise doing nothing is next to impossible.

PS: For example, say I bring a max range ember into Akkad - nobody on my team will ever even see an enemy if they stay with me on the pod, there's absolutely nothing to do for anybody else. How will you score it?

Thus, back to my original point: It cannot work.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Snib

[Wolfiusz]

19 minutes ago, Snib said:

And I refer to my first response to you that you dismissed in favour of personal attacks. Your system cannot work because support frames have nothing to support when grouped with kill frames. And that's not even considering that scoring a "support" equinox giving +80% power strength to the team but otherwise doing nothing is next to impossible.

The score isn't based on 1 mission. If you are a support and you get grouped with uber 1-shoteverything-god-commando, tough luck. You will get a higher score in a next mission.

Also support works in multiple ways. It can be a damage buff, it can be energy restore, it can be slowing down enemies, it can be Limbo keeping defense target unkillable. There are many ways to be active support with a commando-god in the team.

19 minutes ago, Snib said:

PS: For example, say I bring a max range ember into Akkad - nobody on my team will ever even see an enemy if they stay with me on the pod, there's absolutely nothing to do for anybody else. How will you score it?

I won't score it at all.The topic is about sorties and that's the only mission types which would get affected by the system. While the first mission is indeed possible to be wiped with Ember. The second and third can't (or maybe I just haven't seen the propper Ember build). Maybe I just don't have the luck, but I haven't seen yet a sortie mission (especially the third one) where 1 player would be able to handle it all by himself (not counting Spy) and even if, he can still be helped and do it faster and easier with propper support.

 

And as said above, I've seen a similar system work multiple times in games.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Wolfiusz

[Pixoniatus]

Honestly, beside of "I did all he job and he still get the same as me in reward boohoo", what's wrong with leechers ?

Does they keep you from some rewards ? Nope.

Does they steal your loots ? Nope.

Does they blame you, insult, hurt you you in any way ? Nope (if yes, the leeching isn't the real problem)

 

Does they do anything that could disturb the game experience you'd have by playing alone ? 

If no, play alone, if yes, find another squad.

 

[Snib]

12 minutes ago, Wolfiusz said:

The score isn't based on 1 mission. If you are a support and you get grouped with uber 1-shoteverything-god-commando, tough luck. You will get a higher score in a next mission.

Sure, but your score can only rise until you get grouped with a kill frame, which will drop your score again.

12 minutes ago, Wolfiusz said:

Also support works in multiple ways. It can be a damage buff, it can be energy restore, it can be slowing down enemies, it can be Limbo keeping defense target unkillable. There are many ways to be active support with a commando-god in the team.

Slowing down enemies I consider as extremely detrimental, keeping the defense target unkillable as a waste of a team slot (you have unlimited revives for it already and if the limbo was a proper kill frame the defense target wouldn't ever die, anyway), etc. Sure, you can do things as a support, that doesn't mean they are actually helpful. 

Let's face it, support frames only shine when the rest of the team isn't up to par. A bless trin allows even unmodded frames to survive against high level content, a limbo allows even the most clueless team to run a defense, etc. 

And that's the thing. Your scoring cannot work because the situation is not consistent. You cannot group players by performance because performance in the first place depends on who/what you're grouped with. This isn't the same situation as in a Battlefield game. 

12 minutes ago, Wolfiusz said:

I won't score it at all.The topic is about sorties and that's the only mission types which would get affected by the system. While the first mission is indeed possible to be wiped with Ember. The second and third can't (or maybe I just haven't seen the propper Ember build). Maybe I just don't have the luck, but I haven't seen yet a sortie mission (especially the third one) where 1 player would be able to handle it all by himself (not counting Spy) and even if, he can still be helped and do it faster and easier with propper support.

Well, I'm MR23, I have everything maxed out, I can solo everything sorties throw at me with ease. A big part of that is know what to bring in what situation. I won't bring an Ember against elemental damage enhanced Grineer in sortie 3, I'll bring a Mesa. But the Ember will burn down the Corpus just fine in sortie 3. And it is actually faster to solo because of the way enemies spawn.

Obviously newer players bringing their level 0 weapon into a sortie will have an entirely different experience.

But I doubt new players only want to play sorties with other new players since it would make them much harder for them. And since I'm not the one complaining here I also have no interest of blocking new players from entering my squad when I decide to go into public match-making.

Your suggestion tries to solve a problem that does not really exist. You want to segregate the player base by arbitrary performance grading in a cooperative PVE game. It's pointless, it cannot work, and most importantly, it should not work.

 

[Wolfiusz]

6 minutes ago, Snib said:

Your suggestion tries to solve a problem that does not really exist. You want to segregate the player base by arbitrary performance grading in a cooperative PVE game. It's pointless, it cannot work, and most importantly, it should not work.

Oh, but leeches do exist, hence the problem is very real, but ok. I understand your point and despite my attitude I wanted to thank you for explaining your way of seeing things, I really appreciate it. I do agree that my idea may be abit radical for a game such as Warframe, but I'm confident it could be adjusted to a point where it becomes a viable solution to leeches. -> Yeah I'm a stubborn noob (but you probably already noticed that ;) )

But for now, I guess I'll be fine just leaving a team full of leeches and trying to find another one.

[FLSH_BNG]

Deja vu all over again. I swear I've seen this thread somewhere before.

[Snib]

13 minutes ago, Wolfiusz said:

Oh, but leeches do exist, hence the problem is very real, but ok. I understand your point and despite my attitude I wanted to thank you for explaining your way of seeing things, I really appreciate it. I do agree that my idea may be abit radical for a game such as Warframe, but I'm confident it could be adjusted to a point where it becomes a viable solution to leeches. -> Yeah I'm a stubborn noob (but you probably already noticed that ;) )

But for now, I guess I'll be fine just leaving a team full of leeches and trying to find another one.

Leeches do exist, no doubt, I confirmed that earlier in the thread myself, I just question that they are an actual problem that needs solving. You see, the issue is purely psychological. For the leech it's a psychological problem that they consider their time in a game well spent by leeching, and for you it's a psychological problem because you (understandably) feel used by the leecher. But on the game play level it makes no difference to you whether it's a leecher or a genuinely bad player - in fact a bad player could even be disruptive whereas a leecher typically is not.

So yeah, just leave if you don't want to carry them. Everything else just carries too many risks of being disruptive for the rest of the player base IMHO.

[Wolfiusz]

10 hours ago, Snib said:

So yeah, just leave if you don't want to carry them. Everything else just carries too many risks of being disruptive for the rest of the player base IMHO.

Fair enuff.

[Endless_Destruction]

A "tactical score" means that everyone has to carry their weight, which is NOT what needs to happen all the time, because of, among other things, carries.

Case in point- I did all three Lua Spy vaults in a Lua Spy Sortie sometime in the last few days, can't remember exactly when. My teammates were quite grateful for the carry, but under a tactical score system, they would not have a reward, because any such system would necessarily prioritize objectives to everything else, and therefore unfairly punishing them for not having practiced a single variant of a single mission type.

I had no problem helping them out, and was glad to carry them, and am happy they got that much further on their way to a reward.

Similarly, when leveling up gear, a player is likely to be close to useless, especially when leveling a frame. Why should they be punished for just trying to get some extra affinity in?

Archwing is another problem. Most of us just try to get it over with, and therefore don't develop the skill necessary to actually hold our own in serious situations, and under a tactical score system, we who hate archwing get punished for not liking it. Not getting a reward exacerbates the problem of not having good gear>not doing well>not getting rewards>not being able to get good gear.

Now, ACTUAL leeches, such as afkers and those who run around being useless when they have no right to be, can just be reported for bad behavior.

[GrimAtrament]

so should people get punished for doing only 1% damage because that one guy who was Mirage with a symulor?

[Zookes]

On 2/7/2017 at 5:16 PM, (Xbox One)Siniztah said:

Well then you have obviously never soloed a defense mission getting 460 kills and resurrecting the target 15 times while everyone else in your group stares at the wall.

Throw the game. Let them lose and disband, try another group.

It is your duty to carry them? No? So do not. It is simple like this.