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TennoGen Round 7 Release and Prime Model Update


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11 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

All players already know and have to acknowledge before they are allowed to play the game that DE is going to change the game and content may not remain as it was when it was purchased. It was their own choice to not read that part.

While that's understandable for gameplay content and mechanics, that hasn't ever come up with appearance before - since it's just an art asset that doesn't need rebalancing.

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7 minutes ago, Naith said:

Well it was slated for an early 2017 new year feature so that certainly gives me the impression that it's being worked on. Though that's a hope/assumption which is also why I mentioned it because it's appearance related and has something to do with coding or whatever.

That's uncalled for.

It's paid for content (minus consoles...) so if people are disgruntled with stuff - and they've got a reason to be - they can complain. Don't put people down for having an opinion.

Well, remember The War Within? They announced it early 2016, with the intention of releasing it in the summer, but they actually hadn't worked on implementing it until the fall. It's like that, I think. DE talks alot. But I don't think they've started trying to implement Umbra or the separately-colorable armor pieces yet. At least, I haven't seen them mention that they've been trying to get it to work.

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Dont be lazy and make it a toggle, I bought a lot of skins and I like most of them with prime versions. I would not have bought saryn or volt skin if it wouldn't include prime bits. 

I would like to return the skins since they are not the way i saw them when i bought them.

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Just now, Camisoul said:

While that's understandable for gameplay content and mechanics, that hasn't ever come up with appearance before - since it's just an art asset that doesn't need rebalancing.

Would a skin getting PBR treatment count?  That I think is fairly commonly accepted as an improvement though.  There's also a lot of colour pallets that got changed due to a bug that made them look desaturated but that was resolved by giving us the 'Legacy Colours' toggle, effectively giving half a dozen extra sets of colours to people for free (and you can mix and match legacy and normal colours by marking legacy ones you like as favourites then switching back).

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6 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Not to be a stick but console players pay for it too.

People can complain all they want, but people are also able to explain why decisions are made the way they are using basic reasoning. Also a good number of people in here are being downright demanding, like those asking for refunds. The content creators shouldn't have to refund anyone anything when they bought something that was advertised as one way and people just assumed it would remain the same for another.

I missed out the word 'only' in my post, but either way, doubt the numbers of those who have paid on PC compared to those on PS4 is the same, pushing aside the whole plat with PA stuff.

Just because some people are making demands it doesn't mean they're suddenly crybabies and/or still can't complain.

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2 minutes ago, AntoineFlemming said:

44 upvotes is not most of Warframe's community. What were you saying?

I was saying that I wasn't arbitrarily stating that any of the WF community was equally disappointed with Tennogen and Prime bits for just the opposite reason as the people on this thread. This is only one thread mentioning that viewpoint, its not as though I can link every single thread about this in one massive reply. And it also seems to be the most recent, which may explain why it has fewer upvotes than expected.

My statement that most of the WF community dislikes Prime bits showing on their Tennogen purchases can also be logically inferred by the fact that DE is choosing to go this route. If the majority of the WF community liked the Prime bits showing, then why would DE would go to all the extra effort and risk of making this change if the majority of the community approved of the status quo? Just a thought. ;)

 

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1 minute ago, Katinka said:

Would a skin getting PBR treatment count?  That I think is fairly commonly accepted as an improvement though.  There's also a lot of colour pallets that got changed due to a bug that made them look desaturated but that was resolved by giving us the 'Legacy Colours' toggle, effectively giving half a dozen extra sets of colours to people for free (and you can mix and match legacy and normal colours by marking legacy ones you like as favourites then switching back).

The PBR did occur to me, but those allow more options without changing the original appearance (in otherwords you can always leave it default or gold). Obviously also exclude minor fixes such as clipping.

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13 minutes ago, AntoineFlemming said:

Well, remember The War Within? They announced it early 2016, with the intention of releasing it in the summer, but they actually hadn't worked on implementing it until the fall. It's like that, I think. DE talks alot. But I don't think they've started trying to implement Umbra or the separately-colorable armor pieces yet. At least, I haven't seen them mention that they've been trying to get it to work.

Eh, I see where you're coming from. I'm hoping I'm right anyways and it is being worked on, as DE continue to release cosmetics which sometimes have questionable tint orders as they simply do not match up with the rest of your base Warframe and/or other armour pieces/syandana.

Edited by Naith
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13 minutes ago, Bravely_Casual said:

I was saying that I wasn't arbitrarily stating that any of the WF community was equally disappointed with Tennogen and Prime bits for just the opposite reason as the people on this thread. This is only one thread mentioning that viewpoint, its not as though I can link every single thread about this in one massive reply. And it also seems to be the most recent, which may explain why it has fewer upvotes than expected.

My statement that most of the WF community dislikes Prime bits showing on their Tennogen purchases can also be logically inferred by the fact that DE is choosing to go this route. If the majority of the WF community liked the Prime bits showing, then why would DE would go to all the extra effort and risk of making this change if the majority of the community approved of the status quo? Just a thought. ;)

 

DE doesn't know what the majority want, nor was this decision based on any majority. It is impossible to ascertain what the majority wants because the majority do not participate on these forums or on reddit. They already explained that they tried to find a compromise, but this was the only way to make it work. Plus, what they are probably going off of is a few content creators telling DE that their own fans don't like Prime parts hiding the skins. That's my guess as to why they decided to do this.

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11 minutes ago, Naith said:

Eh, I see where you're coming from. I'm hoping I'm right anyways and it is being worked on, as DE continue to release cosmetics which sometimes have questionable tint orders as they simply do not match up with the rest of your base Warframe and/or other armour pieces/syandana.

With that, I just assumed that Mynki didn't like players mixing and matching different types of armor and syandanas. Otherwise, they would've just stuck with the 4th color spot being the metal tint for every single cosmetic. The decision to not adhere to that can be nothing other than intentional.

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35 minutes ago, Camisoul said:

While that's understandable for gameplay content and mechanics, that hasn't ever come up with appearance before - since it's just an art asset that doesn't need rebalancing.

Rebalancing isn't the same as changing. Changing applies to any and all aspects of the assets/game content. This would count as a change.

29 minutes ago, DetoLee said:

Dont be lazy and make it a toggle, I bought a lot of skins and I like most of them with prime versions. I would not have bought saryn or volt skin if it wouldn't include prime bits. 

I would like to return the skins since they are not the way i saw them when i bought them.

Don't be lazy by telling them to do it, go get hired by them as a programmer and do it yourself since you seem to think its just so simple. Or go get informed and read their workshop blog and posts about why they cant do a toggle. Also, go ask the content creator for your money back, and Steam, they all have part of it from your purchase.

9 minutes ago, oceano4 said:

Wtf? I didn't want this?

 

Why can't we toggle it? I paid good money for this. 

You paid good money for a skin meant for the non prime, as the icon for the skin will show. You used the content in a way that was a permitted oversight, which is now being corrected.

Edited by NeithanDiniem
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To the people complaining about this, you had to have known it would get changed eventually. It's not about them ruining what you bought. It's about them fixing what's essentially a bug - we vote on Tennogen every round, and often on certain frames we don't get what we voted for because the prime parts ruin the skin.

Does no one remember Saryn Graxx when she came out? I remember this being posted shortly after, and it's the best example of why this change is absolutely necessary:

tnljoay5zz3y.png

 

Does that look like the advertised skin? I'd say not. I like the Saryn Graxx skin a lot and likely would have bought it myself if it weren't for this glaring defect. It ends up looking nothing like the actual skin because half her mesh is prime bits.

Yes, certain frames had less obnoxiously placed prime parts that didn't ruin the intended Tennogen design too much...but if this wasn't changed at some point, we'd keep running into more and more issues with Prime frames being incompatible with their Tennogen skins. It was necessary, and anyone who's claiming Steam isn't a way to advertise these so how could you possibly know what they look like - we voted for these, on Steam. They're still there under Accepted Items, on Steam. Steam is how they were submitted, Steam is how people kept track of them, and every round of Tennogen they link the Steam pages for the skins that were accepted. There's very little chance the majority of players haven't seen the skin's intended design before they buy it.

I'd say the fact that the preview showed Prime bits was a bug, and while it took a long time to fix, they're fixing it now. You won't see Prime bits on Tennogen previews anymore, because they won't exist with Tennogen skins. No problems going forward. Sorry if a small portion of players liked Prime bits showing for frames that didn't break Tennogen skins, but frames like Saryn Prime absolutely didn't work like this; it was going to be an ongoing struggle if it wasn't changed.

Really happy to hear about this change, because I can actually get Saryn skins now without wondering how screwed up she'd look. 

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3 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

You paid good money for a skin meant for the non prime, as the icon for the skin will show. You used the content in a way that was a permitted oversight, which is now being corrected.

You're trying to argue for one appearance over another, which rubs everyone the wrong way because it's subjective.

What we're trying to say is, regardless of what one's opinions are over which looks better, the way it was originally is what people expect and invest money around. That's already happened, perhaps it was a mistake, but now that people have invested, it needs to be worked around. Saying "it should have been like this from the beginning" doesn't undo the fact that it wasn't, for better or worse.

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56 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

That would require DE to essentially make a duplicate of the Warframe model + skin texture and have it as a variant in the game, bloating file sizes and required download of assets at mission starts.

I don't think there's enough Tennogen for Prime Warframe currently out to warrant a word as strong as "bloating". If they had to do it for every Tennogen and every Prime Warframe in the future, I'd agree, but my post was just about legacy support for current content.

Of course it would be even lighter on hard drive space if they coded these legacy skins to use the current code for combining Tennogen skins with Prime Warframes, but by the looks of it a toggle was too complicated to code or support in the future, so that's why I made a suggestion that's as light as possible on coding difficulty and ongoing support.

Load-in times should stay the same since it always loads one full loadout per player, regardless of how possible loadouts exist in the game.

Edited by Kharseth
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2 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

This update will bring another change: all TennoGen skins will use the normal Warframe model, meaning Prime Parts will no longer poke through.

So you'll be processing refunds for the bait-and-switch yes?

I don't know about Canada but in the UK we have laws requiring sales to be as-advertised and not suddenly switch to something else a bit later on developer whim

 

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Just now, SilentMobius said:

So you'll be processing refunds for the bait-and-switch yes?

I don't know about Canada but in the UK we have laws requiring sales to be as-advertised and not suddenly switch to something else a bit later on developer whim

 

Yeah, basically the way I see it is: maybe you meant to do something else, oops! But at this point, do you want to respond to countless support queries about refunds every day?

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8 minutes ago, Camisoul said:

You're trying to argue for one appearance over another, which rubs everyone the wrong way because it's subjective.

What we're trying to say is, regardless of what one's opinions are over which looks better, the way it was originally is what people expect and invest money around. That's already happened, perhaps it was a mistake, but now that people have invested, it needs to be worked around. Saying "it should have been like this from the beginning" doesn't undo the fact that it wasn't, for better or worse.

No I'm trying to argue that people knew well in advance that DE is capable and will in fact go through and make changes to many aspects of the game despite people buying content that then gets changed. It doesn't need to be worked around at all. Are you saying that people that paid plat for Limbo deserve a refund for that purchase once Limbo gets a rework because he is no longer what they paid for? Steam is the one they bought this content through, not Digital Extremes. Any grief they have with DE would need to instead be directed at Valve for their refunds. And since Steams refund policy is also well known and forcibly required to be accepted in order to utilize their service, that isn't going to happen.

7 minutes ago, Kharseth said:

I don't think there's enough Tennogen for Prime Warframe currently out to warrant a word as strong as "bloating". If they had to do it for every Tennogen and every Prime Warframe in the future, I'd agree, but my post was just about legacy support for current content.

Of course it would be even lighter on hard drive space if they coded these legacy skins to use the current code for combining Tennogen skins with Prime Warframes, but by the looks of it a toggle was too complicated to code or support in the future, so that's why I made a suggestion that's as light as possible on coding difficulty and ongoing support.

Load-in times should stay the same since it always loads one full loadout per player, regardless of how possible loadouts exist in the game.

Load-in times for the player, yes. but Server side DE has to compile the entire scene and send the game-ready assets to the players each time you load into a mission, as proven by DE Steve's latest stream broadcast. That would require more assets to be searched through and handled by the server, and it would be bloat on their end.

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34 minutes ago, AntoineFlemming said:

With that, I just assumed that Mynki didn't like players mixing and matching different types of armor and syandanas. Otherwise, they would've just stuck with the 4th color spot being the metal tint for every single cosmetic. The decision to not adhere to that can be nothing other than intentional.

I put it down to some of the staff just being, I don't know how to describe it. Again I'll refer to some of the bugs that still exist and existed since release of content. Due to that I wouldn't be surprised of other stuff.

Further to that, if it is intentional I think that's highly unthoughtful. Yeah, this may be your game and you've got your own supposed vision, but you've got be careful as the community is what keeps your vision and dream going. Without us, it'll just lose life support just due to your own 'integrity'. There's also little sense in trying to force something down people's throats when it just does not work, because it screws up everything else. At least make it sync with the tint of syandanas, good grief. There's good implementations of visions and there's bad, that is an absolute example of a bad implementation.

Edited by Naith
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1 hour ago, NeithanDiniem said:

That appearance was for the Warframe you bought it for. That appearance by design and presentation on the workshop was for the non prime. You got exactly what you paid for, you just expected it to be something it was not. They are not required to refund you for your illogical expectations not being met. I cant demand a refund for a booster because it didn't give me the amount of resources I expected it to give me.

Actually when you check ingame the tennogen skins on most primed warframes you can see the model with prime bits appearing , that in itself shows what you are getting... If they couldnt release it without those prime bits before selling , changing it after you bought is really bad.

Sad to see my Nyx Athena losing the prime bits (one of the reasons i bought it was because i thought that looked cool when i checked ingame).

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8 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Load-in times for the player, yes. but Server side DE has to compile the entire scene and send the game-ready assets to the players each time you load into a mission, as proven by DE Steve's latest stream broadcast. That would require more assets to be searched through and handled by the server, and it would be bloat on their end.

The amount of Legacy skins produced from the current content amounts to 22 skins if I've counted correctly. Unless DE planned to release fewer than 22 cosmetics in the future (including new Warframes, Helmets, Sigils, Emblems and individual armor pieces that would all get a spot on this list) on this current system, this "bloat" is completely acceptable.

Edited by Kharseth
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1 hour ago, [DE]Taylor said:

All skins will still be completely compatible on Prime Warframes! They will work similar to Deluxe skins in that the Prime model is replaced by the normal model. It will still be a Prime, it just won't look like it!

Not a single creator or artist displays any Prime details in any of their work - the item sold is completely Prime-detail free in its presentation and creation. It was a 'happy accident' that prime bits were showing through but it's one we have to fix as per the post.

Sadly when i bought i went directly ingame to check how it looks , and it was showing those prime bits... Does your customers need to know that was a "happy accident" before they buy , or just get what is shown to then??

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