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TennoGen Round 7 Release and Prime Model Update


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21 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

So you'll be processing refunds for the bait-and-switch yes?

I don't know about Canada but in the UK we have laws requiring sales to be as-advertised and not suddenly switch to something else a bit later on developer whim

 

I assume you understand what This is: https://warframe.com/en/eula

Ill point out the area in question for you.

5.    Patches and Updates

Digital Extremes may deploy or provide patches, updates and modifications to the Game that must be installed for you to continue to play the Game. Digital Extremes may update the Game remotely including without limitation the Game Client Software residing on the your machine, without your knowledge, and you hereby grant to Digital Extremes your consent to deploy and apply such patches, updates and modifications.

This change falls under that part of the EULA. It is a change/modification to the content which is patched with or without your knowledge or consent. You agree to this upon starting to and by continuing to play the game.

Lastly, the product icon is the advertisement, How it is displayed on your Warframe in the arsenal is not included under that advertisement law.

7 minutes ago, Mengaster said:

Sadly when i bought i went directly ingame to check how it looks , and it was showing those prime bits... Does your customers need to know that was a "happy accident" before they buy , or just get what is shown to then??

See last sentence above.

Edited by NeithanDiniem
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4 minutes ago, Kharseth said:

The amount of Legacy skins produced from the current content amounts to 22 skins if I've counted correctly. Unless DE planned to release fewer than 22 cosmetics in the future (including new Warframes, Helmets, Sigils, Emblems and individual armor pieces that would all get a spot on this list) on this current system, this "bloat" is completely acceptable.

Legacy skins do not have multiple versions, they only have a single version that applies to both frames. Your idea would require a duplicate version of the skin that applies to either model, the same as it currently does and is being changed from. That is an additional variant. Any additional versions of the same content is bloat.

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16 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

-snip-

Eh, don't bother really, no matter how hard you tried to explain and no matter how logical your argument is, they just won't care. The basis of their argument is basically "if i can think about it then it can be done".

 

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Yes, DE has fault on this for not fixing this problem earlier.

I see a lot of people talking about adding a toggle, thinking that option would solve all the problems. But development costs money and resources. This little button to toggle looks like a normal and easy task for normal players (who don't have idea how development works for real), but can be totally a detour for the studio.
The programming team will need to change the agenda and stops working on some new system or QoL changes to figure out how create a new script to change bodies on the menu. The UX designers will need to start thinking the best way and the best place to add this button on the appearance screen. The art team will need to review every single tennogen skin to look what can be maintained and what prime parts need to be removed, while in contact with the tennogen creators.
And then, a button is not a simple button after all. A studio works on a budget and a time limit to ensure that important content can be delivered in time. Specially in Warframe, where the fresh content is what keep the players engaged (wich leads to money to pay for the development).

DE knows about the % of players that demands this fixed and the % of players that doesn't care or don't want this change. If you are very mad for wasting $5 on a skin that now is different, there is a lot more people that wants this fixed. In the end, this is only a game, not a war about legal rights, false advertisement or bad faith. Chill guys.

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6 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

I assume you understand what This is: https://warframe.com/en/eula

Ill point out the area in question for you.

5.    Patches and Updates

Digital Extremes may deploy or provide patches, updates and modifications to the Game that must be installed for you to continue to play the Game. Digital Extremes may update the Game remotely including without limitation the Game Client Software residing on the your machine, without your knowledge, and you hereby grant to Digital Extremes your consent to deploy and apply such patches, updates and modifications.

This change falls under that part of the EULA. It is a change/modification to the content which is patched with or without your knowledge or consent. You agree to this upon starting to and by continuing to play the game.

Lastly, the product icon is the advertisement, How it is displayed on your Warframe in the arsenal is not included under that advertisement law.

See last sentence above.

Thanks for the clarification about how those things are handled. 

This was not sarcasm (before anyone jumps for a fight)

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1 hour ago, [DE]Taylor said:

All skins will still be completely compatible on Prime Warframes! They will work similar to Deluxe skins in that the Prime model is replaced by the normal model. It will still be a Prime, it just won't look like it!

Not a single creator or artist displays any Prime details in any of their work - the item sold is completely Prime-detail free in its presentation and creation. It was a 'happy accident' that prime bits were showing through but it's one we have to fix as per the post.

 

 

If a massive section of the community is enjoying prime bits with tennogen skins, why "fix" it? Some of the older, and more bland primes look amazing with the tennogen skins, and we bought them because of what we saw on the ARSENAL previews, not the store. DE is on the verge of making a Spectres of the Rail tier of mistake, except with fashionframe. How about you hold off that part of the "fix" before you end up creating MORE problems than intended? We never asked for this half-done mess of a "fix", we just want more ways to creatively decorate our frames.

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Legacy skins do not have multiple versions, they only have a single version that applies to both frames. Your idea would require a duplicate version of the skin that applies to either model, the same as it currently does and is being changed from. That is an additional variant. Any additional versions of the same content is bloat.

Yeah, but I think it's a solution that's worth it, imo.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Not a single creator or artist displays any Prime details in any of their work

Is that by choice or is that because they don't have access to the Prime models?

1 hour ago, [DE]Taylor said:

the item sold is completely Prime-detail free in its presentation and creation.

I'll agree that it is shown Prime-detail free on Steam but that is not where we make the purchase.  The purchase is made in game either through the Market or the Arsenal and I know personally that I only buy skins after previewing in the Arsenal as it will show my colour scheme.  At this point of sale (the Arsenal) I am currently shown the model as Prime with the Tennogen skin in my chosen colours.

1 hour ago, [DE]Taylor said:

it's one we have to fix

But do you really have to?  Is there really no way to have both as options like how we got to keep old colours through the 'legacy colours' option and old helmets with stats as Arcane helmets.  Is there really no way to add an option for Prime frames to select the model separate from the skin?  People have been asking to be able to use default appearance on Primes for ages so surely an option to select 'Nyx shape' or 'Nyx Prime shape' separate from the skin that goes over it would keep everyone here happy as well as making people happy on another topic.

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4 minutes ago, AntoineFlemming said:

Yeah, but I think it's a solution that's worth it, imo.

And then people would complain that the new skins that get added after tomorrow don't have that option, causing more places for people to complain about inconsistency.

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16 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

I assume you understand what This is: https://warframe.com/en/eula

Ill point out the area in question for you.

5.    Patches and Updates

Digital Extremes may deploy or provide patches, updates and modifications to the Game that must be installed for you to continue to play the Game. Digital Extremes may update the Game remotely including without limitation the Game Client Software residing on the your machine, without your knowledge, and you hereby grant to Digital Extremes your consent to deploy and apply such patches, updates and modifications.

This change falls under that part of the EULA. It is a change/modification to the content which is patched with or without your knowledge or consent. You agree to this upon starting to and by continuing to play the game.

Lastly, the product icon is the advertisement, How it is displayed on your Warframe in the arsenal is not included under that advertisement law.

I also assume you understand that an eula may-or-may not be enforceable in a specific territory and they _always_ overstate what they can do.

Tennogen is purchasable directly from the armory, where the state is displayed on Prime Warframes retaining their native mesh, that is advertising. It's functionally equivalent to the image on the front of the packaging.

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Just now, Katinka said:

But do you really have to?  Is there really no way to have both as options like how we got to keep old colours through the 'legacy colours' option and old helmets with stats as Arcane helmets.  Is there really no way to add an option for Prime frames to select the model separate from the skin?  People have been asking to be able to use default appearance on Primes for ages so surely an option to select 'Nyx shape' or 'Nyx Prime shape' separate from the skin that goes over it would keep everyone here happy as well as making people happy on another topic.

To do that they would have to have a toggle. To have a toggle would require DE to remake the foundation for the entire equipment management system on the engine. Remaking foundational aspects of a game typically causes a storm of bugs due to the sheer number of parts of the code referencing the now replaced system, or require an absurd amount of time searching through code bits to locate references in any number of parts of the game code. It isn't a practical solution in the slightest. Legacy skins would cause problems by having not only double the assets for that content to be handled by DE's server database when they build game-ready content every time you run into a mission/relay, but also inconsistency with skins made after the change and people complaining about it. Legacy helmets are in my eyes something DE should have bitten the bullet for and removed entirely due to the inconsistency they created. Now however with the number of new assets being added that kind of option has a larger impact on the game, especially when it comes to appearance changes rather than just stat differences.

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2 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

I also assume you understand that an eula may-or-may not be enforceable in a specific territory and they _always_ overstate what they can do.

Tennogen is purchasable directly from the armory, where the state is displayed on Prime Warframes retaining their native mesh, that is advertising. It's functionally equivalent to the image on the front of the packaging.

No, because the packaging in this case is the icon for the item you purchase. It being on your Warframe is you effectively trying on a new dress, and is not a part of the advertisement of said dress at all.

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1 hour ago, AntoineFlemming said:

DE doesn't know what the majority want, nor was this decision based on any majority. It is impossible to ascertain what the majority wants because the majority do not participate on these forums or on reddit. They already explained that they tried to find a compromise, but this was the only way to make it work. Plus, what they are probably going off of is a few content creators telling DE that their own fans don't like Prime parts hiding the skins. That's my guess as to why they decided to do this.

This decision was based off of a few things.

1) Newer Primes increasingly covering skins, as well as general interference of the Prime model in the creator's original design, resulting in requests from community members to remove them entirely or to add a toggle.

2) Our creators not having access to Prime models to test how their pieces will look with the extra gold shiny bits. Especially with new Primes releasing, it would suck to discover that your Valkyr skin doesn't look the way you want it to on her Prime variant. There is no way for the creators to anticipate the way it will perform in these situations, especially for more complex re-texturings.

3) The fact that Prime pieces appearing on TennoGen was more of a happy accident. In our initial release of the program, [DE]Kary mentioned that we were treating them like Immortal Skins in that we would not allow additional modelling work - only textures. This meant they were treated like Immortal Skins in how they handled Prime Models, but this decision was made without realizing how insanely creative and complex the community designs would be.

Now that it has been proven over and over again that you guys are able to push TennoGen into pseudo-Deluxe Skin territory, having Prime Models didn't make much sense. Some Skins absolutely shine with the extra pieces, while others have certain key details obscured. Finding a balance between these two extremes has been difficult, as you see here.

As you know February 15 is the plan for this for PC - but based on the heat here we're honestly scrambling a bit to figure out a way to have our cake and eat it too. We'll have a detailed post to follow - we haven't gone anywhere, just a heads up! 

Edited by [DE]Taylor
Missing CapitaliZation
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13 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

No, because the packaging in this case is the icon for the item you purchase. It being on your Warframe is you effectively trying on a new dress, and is not a part of the advertisement of said dress at all.

If you try on a dress and the cashier then switches it out for another one, you'd better believe that consumer protection in the UK would require a refund.

More so if they sneak into your house months later and switch it out.

Oh and just so you know this:

Quote

Legacy skins would cause problems by having not only double the assets for that content to be handled by DE's server database when they build game-ready content every time you run into a mission/relay, but also inconsistency 

Is nonsense, you have completely misunderstood how DE's item DB works.

The asset is the mesh or texture, the mesh for the prime and regular warframe and the tennogen texture are all present in the local DB and loaded from disk on mission load or when an avatar reses in (Preprocessing that happens on the dev build is unconnected to any of that) Extra versions of the skins are just dereferences into existing assets and would creat an administrative load (as I've said before) but minimal load on the game or assets

Edited by SilentMobius
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Just now, SilentMobius said:

If you try on a dress and the cashier then switches it out for another one, you'd better believe that consumer protection in the UK would require a refund.

More so if they sneak into your house months later and switch it out.

Not when you are told well in advance and consent that the cashier can in fact do that. Your laws still hold absolutely no ground here when the icon of the item, being the advertisement, is showing exactly what you get. DE is under no obligation to give you a refund when they already directly showed you through the item icon what it is that you were getting. You would also need to get that refund from Steam and the private creator of the content, not just DE, since DE only got a quarter of the funds you paid for that asset. If DE says the item is non-refundable, Steam will stand by that decision and not enforce the refund. That leaves you with the private individual that made the content and you would have to go through the legal system to get Steam to issue you the individual's information and then you would have to effectively sue that indivisual for the 1.25$ you are "owed."

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I really do hope making a toggle is possible, as a matter of fact if you equip trinity prime with her immortal skin it actually removes some of her prime additions which is sort of odd. That might be unrelated though. 

(PLS THO)

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6 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Legacy skins would cause problems by having not only double the assets for that content to be handled by DE's server database

How would it double the assets?  Everything required currently exists in game except for the text string that will give the localised name and description.  You would have one option in your list of skins that tells the game to use model A and another that tells it to use model B (both of which currently exist as the normal and Prime frames and the coding to overide the model used already exists for Premium skins) and in either case it would reference the same texture files that it currently does.  It should be a case of telling the game to reference different files that already exist and shouldn't require any additional assets.

10 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

As you know February 15 is the plan for this for PC - but based on the heat here we're honestly scrambling a bit to figure out a way to have our cake and eat it too. We'll have a detailed post to follow - we haven't gone anywhere, just a heads up! 

Thank you.

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Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

Not when you are told well in advance and consent that the cashier can in fact do that. Your laws still hold absolutely no ground here when the icon of the item, being the advertisement, is showing exactly what you get.

Incorrect, consumer law in the UK is very clear that you can't waive your statutory rights. And I'm sure that DE don't want to go through the small claims court (Which is very easy to do in the UK) and have the EULA explicitly invalidated. 

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Just now, Demoonic said:

I really do hope making a toggle is possible, as a matter of fact if you equip trinity prime with her immortal skin it actually removes some of her prime additions which is sort of odd. That might be unrelated though. 

(PLS THO)

It probably removes them due to the two models being mapped differently to the textures (due to the new parts) and those areas not having any location on the old texture/material mapped to the removed mesh. Many of the prime mesh parts are just slapped over the old mesh, but they would require to be mapped to the textures in order to look any good.

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25 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Legacy skins do not have multiple versions, they only have a single version that applies to both frames. Your idea would require a duplicate version of the skin that applies to either model, the same as it currently does and is being changed from. That is an additional variant. Any additional versions of the same content is bloat.

If additional versions of the same content would be considered bloat by DE, we wouldn't have skins in the first place, including stuff like Wraith, Prisma and Dex, including color palettes with minuscule variations on shades of red or grey - and it's not looking like DE's looking to discontinue this trend in the future.

If that's all "bloat" to you, I can work with your definition, but it wouldn't be usable as a contra anymore. My proposal of adding 22 "new" skins would take up resources of two rounds of TennoGen. Based on DE showing no sign of discontinuing TennoGen anytime soon, I'd say they've got those resources. Maybe writing a gifting script is too complicated or DE wants to set a precedent here, but I don't see how resources could be a valid problem here.

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2 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Incorrect, consumer law in the UK is very clear that you can't waive your statutory rights. And I'm sure that DE don't want to go through the small claims court (Which is very easy to do in the UK) and have the EULA explicitly invalidated. 

Statutory right in the UK as defined by gov.uk: You must offer a full refund if an item is faulty, not as described or doesn’t do what it’s supposed to.

There is no fault in the item, it is fully functional and can be equipped on your Warframe.

Item is described in Warframe as "A unique skin for the <name> Warframe. Notice how it doesn't say "Prime" in there. Excalibur and Excalibur Prime are different Warframes.

Item displays in game as a replacement skin to the intended Warframe. It is doing what it is supposed to do.

To continue, in the section where it states when they don't have to offer a refund:

no longer want an item (eg because it’s the wrong size or colour) unless they bought it without seeing it

You saw the icon to select it in order to see it on your Warframe. You saw it on the non-prime Warframe in the market. You saw the advertised item, which in this case is the icon or the market display. Nothing in this applies to how it looked on your body when you tried it on.

In the parts where they have to offer a refund:

You must refund the customer within 14 days of receiving the goods back. They don’t have to provide a reason.

DE already offers this through support. Use it if you are applicable. Steam also already offers this, Use it if you are applicable.

 

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7 minutes ago, Kharseth said:

If additional versions of the same content would be considered bloat by DE, we wouldn't have skins in the first place, including stuff like Wraith, Prisma and Dex, including color palettes with minuscule variations on shades of red or grey - and it's not looking like DE's looking to discontinue this trend in the future.

If that's all "bloat" to you, I can work with your definition, but it wouldn't be usable as a contra anymore. My proposal of adding 22 "new" skins would take up resources of two rounds of TennoGen. Based on DE showing no sign of discontinuing TennoGen anytime soon, I'd say they've got those resources. Maybe writing a gifting script is too complicated or DE wants to set a precedent here, but I don't see how resources could be a valid problem here.

Answers nothing for the inconsistency, Also its 22 new skins they would create that DE got absolutely no money from which to use towards increasing their company capabilities.

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18 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

This decision was based off of a few things.

1) Newer Primes increasingly covering skins, as well as general interference of the Prime model in the creator's original design, resulting in requests from community members to remove them entirely or to add a toggle.

2) Our creators not having access to Prime models to test how their pieces will look with the extra gold shiny bits. Especially with new Primes releasing, it would suck to discover that your Valkyr skin doesn't look the way you want it to on her Prime variant. There is no way for the creators to anticipate the way it will perform in these situations, especially for more complex re-texturings.

3) The fact that Prime pieces appearing on TennoGen was more of a happy accident. In our initial release of the program, [DE]Kary mentioned that we were treating them like immortal skins in that we would not allow additional modelling work - only textures. This meant they were treated like Immortal Skins in how they handled Prime Models, but this decision was made without realizing how insanely creative and complex the community designs would be.

Now that it has been proven over and over again that you guys are able to push TennoGen into pseudo-Deluxe Skin territory, having Prime Models didn't make much sense. As we all know, some Skins absolutely shine with the extra pieces, while others have certain key details obscured. Finding a balance between these two extremes has been difficult, as you see here.

As you know February 15 is the plan for this for PC - but based on the heat here we're honestly scrambling a bit to figure out a way to have our cake and eat it too. We'll have a detailed post to follow - we haven't gone anywhere, just a heads up! 

Please remember that the old way offered a choice.

  • Want the normal mesh, use a normal Warframe
  • Want a prime mesh, use a prime Warframe

Players could sacrifice a small amount of statistical advantage for their preferred look

With this change you are forcing all players you accept one solution that is counter what was presented when the item was bought.

I try to avoid overreaction, but Tennogen items are not cheap for what they are (Though in absolute sense they are not expensive) to have that ripped out for under me really hurts my trust in DE's ability to respect fiscal investiture in this game.

And really? fiscal trust is what makes people like me keep giving you money.

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20 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

As you know February 15 is the plan for this for PC - but based on the heat here we're honestly scrambling a bit to figure out a way to have our cake and eat it too. We'll have a detailed post to follow - we haven't gone anywhere, just a heads up! 

To clarify a point here: replaced Prime models on TennoGen skins are coming to Consoles tomorrow. If we decide to change our plans on PC, they will come into effect on Xbox One and PS4 in the next possible build. 

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