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TennoGen Round 7 Release and Prime Model Update


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Welp... Tennogen is dead to me now. Can't have my prime bits, won't want the skins. This is gonna ruin all my Prime Frames I bought skins for, ultimately ruining the look I bought them for in the first place. Will refunds be in order after this change?

Edited by Fahren_Corvalis
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21 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Statutory right in the UK as defined by gov.uk: You must offer a full refund if an item is faulty, not as described or doesn’t do what it’s supposed to.

There is no fault in the item, it is fully functional and can be equipped on your Warframe.

Item is described in Warframe as "A unique skin for the <name> Warframe. Notice how it doesn't say "Prime" in there. Excalibur and Excalibur Prime are different Warframes.

Item displays in game as a replacement skin to the intended Warframe. It is doing what it is supposed to do.

To continue, in the section where it states when they don't have to offer a refund:

no longer want an item (eg because it’s the wrong size or colour) unless they bought it without seeing it

You saw the icon to select it in order to see it on your Warframe. You saw it on the non-prime Warframe in the market. You saw the advertised item, which in this case is the icon or the market display. Nothing in this applies to how it looked on your body when you tried it on.

In the parts where they have to offer a refund:

You must refund the customer within 14 days of receiving the goods back. They don’t have to provide a reason.

DE already offers this through support. Use it if you are applicable. Steam also already offers this, Use it if you are applicable.

 

You can purchase the skin directly from the arsenal, and the display on the current warframe (Which can be prime) counts as a "description" just as displays, catalogues, and box art do. 

In this situation the vendor is changing that advertised appearance retroactively. 

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1 minute ago, SilentMobius said:

You can purchase the skin directly from the arsenal, and the display on the current warframe (Which can be prime) counts as a "description" just as displays, catalogues, and box art do. 

In this situation the vendor is changing that advertised appearance retroactively. 

Not when the display is the icon you clicked on to view the item. You keep bringing up the arsenal view when the icon is literally right there. THAT is the product you buy. In order to click it, you would have seen it.

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Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

Not when the display is the icon you clicked on to view the item. You keep bringing up the arsenal view when the icon is literally right there. THAT is the product you buy. In order to click it, you would have seen it.

You are really fixating on that icon for some reason. All advertised states of a product apply, be it box, catalogue or a demo, there is no notion of "only this one applies" in consumer law in the UK.

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Heh, if this "happy accident" as you defined it would have been fixed close to the Tennogen program launch (almost 16 months ago) none of this would have happened.

As it is now, I must say I would never have bought some skins knowing this would be the fix for it, and I don't think I'll go ahead and buy more in the future if this goes through.

A toggle is of course the ideal solution, you said it's technically difficult to implement it and I wanna trust you, I am no warframe developer and I don't need technical details.

I am a customer here.

And as a customer I would like you to consider making an extra effort, for the future of the tennogen program and maybe warframe itself having more engine flexibility can't be a bad thing.

I understand you need the manpower elsewhere but you don't need to fix it tomorrow, this "accident" has been going on quite a while afterall.

 

 

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I can understand the game engine being too gimmicky to implement a true toggle switch, but this can easily be worked around.

Just treat the Primed / Not-primed skins as separate items, and let Primed frames equip one or the other. So a Frost Prime should be able to choose between "Emperor Frost Skin" (a pseudo-Deluxe skin that changes the frame's model) and "Primed Emperor Frost Skin" (a simple texture swap that doesn't affect the model), just like how one chooses between any other two skins.


If (by some chance) these two skins calling on the same texture file is where WF's engine starts misbehaving, then just save two copies of the Tennogen texture and let the Primed / Not-primed skins call on them separately.
It's very slightly less efficient on the game's memory requirement (i.e. our 25GB game will become "25GB + a couple megabytes"), but I fail to see a reason that it wouldn't work. You know, considering that it wouldn't be treated any differently from any of our other skins.

 

 

I'm sure that the devs have thought of this solution already, which is why I'm baffled as to why it wasn't selected.
If a dev were to be a bit more specific as to what the technical issues of this actually are, then maybe we could properly bounce ideas around and find a solution that makes everyone happy.

Edited by SortaRandom
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6 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

You are really fixating on that icon for some reason. All advertised states of a product apply, be it box, catalogue or a demo, there is no notion of "only this one applies" in consumer law in the UK.

If you're that confident that they can be sued, then why don't you try? just arguing whether someone can be sued or not while no one do the suing made this whole argument pretty meaningless if you really look at it.

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For me, I don't think it's so much the future of Tennogen that I'm worried about, more the future of Prime Warframes and Prime Access.  I have purchased two Prime Accesses at top level, Nova Prime and Valkyr Prime, and I did so in part because I really liked what I saw when I looked at the Prime version of the Warframe.  When I now consider that the vast majority of available skins will overide all Prime details it makes me wonder if future Prime Access will be as appealing.

20 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Not when the display is the icon you clicked on to view the item. You keep bringing up the arsenal view when the icon is literally right there. THAT is the product you buy. In order to click it, you would have seen it.

That icon also doesn't show us that we can customise the colours either.  Should all Tennogen be restricted to the default colours as that is the creator's artistic vision and what was advertised in the icon?  I for one never by a skin (be it Tennogen, Premium, Immortal or something seasonal) without checking it in the Arsenal to see how it looks in different colour schemes and on the Prime model if applicable.

Edited by Katinka
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34 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

You are really fixating on that icon for some reason. All advertised states of a product apply, be it box, catalogue or a demo, there is no notion of "only this one applies" in consumer law in the UK.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/1/chapter/3/crossheading/what-statutory-rights-are-there-under-a-digital-content-contract/enacted

There is nothing in this here, the actual written law you are using, that would state that DE is in the wrong for making changes. The description of the marketed item is provided to you as seen on the non-prime frame. Every displayed aspect of the content shows it on the non-prime frame, making it be the intended particular purpose. The Skin applies to the Prime frame, yes, and after this change it will still apply to the prime frame. No violation in the description has happened because the prime bits are not a part of the sold content, it is a part of the preexisting content the skin is being applied to. If the prime aspects were a part of the original skin and applied themselves on the non-prime version, say as added metal bits, not prime bits per-say, then yes their removal would be violation of that law. Since the prime bits are not a part of the content you bought and instead a part of the content you already had, they are not included in the description of the purchased content. This is no different than the physical aspects of the person wearing a dress in an advertisement in a shopping mall not being included as part of the guarantee for quality, description, or purpose of the bought dress. Next, since you bought that content for the game which also makes all in-game sales follow the terms of the EULA contract that states that DE has the right to modify the content, that applies to the sold tennogen items by this law. DE can make modifications to the content as long as the original description and purpose of the item doesn't change, which it would not since the sold item does not include the prime aspects of the Warframe. The displaying of prime aspects of the Warframe through the skin then by this law would be counted as a fault which, by this law, DE is obligated to correct. Since they have been contacted by content creators and consumers about the fault, DE is following the terms of this law by finding a way to correct it. Whether or not you see the removal of prime bits from the warframe as being a part of the skin just means that you are including the description of one item into the description of another, which is not how this law works.

Edited by NeithanDiniem
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"The honorable judge Markhor takes his seat, as the rest of the court follows.

"Affixing his monocle and cocking his head aback with a slight tilt, he looks over the lawsuit charges.

"'You're suing over a few polygons being remodeled in a video game whose assets are not your property."

"'Well, yes, but--"

"'Get out of my court room."

 

GAVAL

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1 hour ago, [DE]Taylor said:

This decision was based off of a few things.

1) Newer Primes increasingly covering skins, as well as general interference of the Prime model in the creator's original design, resulting in requests from community members to remove them entirely or to add a toggle.

2) Our creators not having access to Prime models to test how their pieces will look with the extra gold shiny bits. Especially with new Primes releasing, it would suck to discover that your Valkyr skin doesn't look the way you want it to on her Prime variant. There is no way for the creators to anticipate the way it will perform in these situations, especially for more complex re-texturings.

3) The fact that Prime pieces appearing on TennoGen was more of a happy accident. In our initial release of the program, [DE]Kary mentioned that we were treating them like Immortal Skins in that we would not allow additional modelling work - only textures. This meant they were treated like Immortal Skins in how they handled Prime Models, but this decision was made without realizing how insanely creative and complex the community designs would be.

Now that it has been proven over and over again that you guys are able to push TennoGen into pseudo-Deluxe Skin territory, having Prime Models didn't make much sense. Some Skins absolutely shine with the extra pieces, while others have certain key details obscured. Finding a balance between these two extremes has been difficult, as you see here.

As you know February 15 is the plan for this for PC - but based on the heat here we're honestly scrambling a bit to figure out a way to have our cake and eat it too. We'll have a detailed post to follow - we haven't gone anywhere, just a heads up! 

Any chance we can get Mag Prime's holsters moved to the Auxiliary slot then?

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Hey 

So I am a bit confused as someone who has spent hundreds of dollars on this game, and has a friend who has done the same since we love this game so much. All the tennogen items we've bought will no longer work with our PRIME Warframes does this include helmets, cloaks etc.. Or is this exclusively for the Skin of the warframe? 

 

 

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Just now, xRufus7x said:

Any chance we can get Mag Prime's holsters moved to the Auxiliary slot then?

Now THERE is a plausible solution, pending how well partial mesh calls can work. If all the Prime bits (the separate mesh parts exclusive to the primes resting on top of the original Warframe) were a single auxiliary piece that could be equipped on Warframes with said items, the option of choice increases. Adding auxiliaries to existing frames is fully possible since the data required for it is already existing in the game in the case of the mustache equipment slots. Since those items aren't coming back in the foreseeable future, the slots can be repurposed. Thus, No large UI or code changes on that front. The main hurdle would be splitting the mesh parts from the model call without breaking the entire system. Im curious how viable this solution is.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)d0wnco1d said:

Hey 

So I am a bit confused as someone who has spent hundreds of dollars on this game, and has a friend who has done the same since we love this game so much. All the tennogen items we've bought will no longer work with our PRIME Warframes does this include helmets, cloaks etc.. Or is this exclusively for the Skin of the warframe? 

 

 

The Warframe skins when applied to a Prime Warframe will look just like they do on normal Warframes.  Helmets and Syandanas wont be affected.

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)d0wnco1d said:

Hey 

So I am a bit confused as someone who has spent hundreds of dollars on this game, and has a friend who has done the same since we love this game so much. All the tennogen items we've bought will no longer work with our PRIME Warframes does this include helmets, cloaks etc.. Or is this exclusively for the Skin of the warframe? 

 

 

It will still work on your prime frame, 100%. What changes is you will be seeing the non-prime mesh for the Warframe with the Tennogen skin applied. This removes the prime-exclusive mesh bits (like Trinity Prime's scarf things).

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7 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Now THERE is a plausible solution, pending how well partial mesh calls can work. If all the Prime bits (the separate mesh parts exclusive to the primes resting on top of the original Warframe) were a single auxiliary piece that could be equipped on Warframes with said items, the option of choice increases. Adding auxiliaries to existing frames is fully possible since the data required for it is already existing in the game in the case of the mustache equipment slots. Since those items aren't coming back in the foreseeable future, the slots can be repurposed. Thus, No large UI or code changes on that front. The main hurdle would be splitting the mesh parts from the model call without breaking the entire system. Im curious how viable this solution is.

Have you seen what happened with the armor pieces dude? What you're asking for is absolute hell for Prime Warframes. THAT SHOULD NEVER EVER HAPPEN. It's going to create clipping, bad positioning, it's going to ruin the whole meshes. Pieces won't stretch anymore to match position.

Don't even think of that.

 

Edited by NightmareT12
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2 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Have you seen what happened with the armor pieces dude? What you're asking for is absolute hell for Prime Warframes. THAT SHOULD NEVER EVER HAPPEN. It's going to create clipping, bad positioning, it's going to ruin the whole meshes. Pieces won't stretch anymore to match position.

Don't even think of that.

 

... You realize that the stretching you are talking about is based on the way the asset is rigged to the skeleton, which wouldn't change at all with the proposed possible change? The parts are already positioned. They wouldn't need to reposition them, at all...

Edited by NeithanDiniem
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10 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

... You realize that the stretching you are talking about is based on the way the asset is rigged to the skeleton, which wouldn't change at all with the proposed possible change? The parts are already positioned. They wouldn't need to reposition them, at all...

On the contrary. DE has these work on a single mesh file, except in clothes. To do what you said, they'd need to separate them into different pieces, which would mean they'd behave like the armor pieces frames like Frost or Oberon have.

Have you seen Oberon man. Were you around for when he released? It's such a loss... It's so terrible (terrible enough that I'm trying to reach them to warn them for when Oberon Prime comes so they can design it on the standard position and save themselves a few issues). The Warframes with those parts were looking WAY better before they separated them.

I just can't accept this to happen for everyone over a skin. I just will not. Never. Ever. The only true solution is to make the call to the engine to select the mesh. Or to force it.

Anything else is going to be disastrous.

Edited by NightmareT12
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2 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

On the contrary. DE has these work on a single mesh file, except in clothes. To do what you said, they'd need to separate them into different pieces, which would mean they'd behave like the armor pieces frames like Frost or Oberon have.

Have you seen Oberon man. Were you around for when he released? It's such a loss... It's so terrible. The Warframes with those parts were looking WAY better before they separated them.

I just can't accept this to happen for everyone over a skin. I just will not. Never. Ever. The only true solution is to make the call to the engine to select the mesh. Or to force it.

Anything else is going to be disastrous.

No, they wouldn't. The rigging is able to be applied to attachable objects like that by simply copying the weight maps. I should know. I work for a video game company as a modeler. Frost's shoulder armor was changed to not flex because before it had no alternative, now it doesn't have to and it can look solid, as its shape implies, rather than rubbery. They are fully capable of making it flex with the body however, same applies to Oberon. They changed it because it was no longer needed.

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Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

No, they wouldn't. The rigging is able to be applied to attachable objects like that by simply copying the weight maps. I should know. I work for a video game company as a modeler. Frost's shoulder armor was changed to not flex because before it had no alternative, now it doesn't have to and it can look solid, as its shape implies, rather than rubbery. They are fully capable of making it flex with the body however, same applies to Oberon. They changed it because it was no longer needed.

Now, below:

0I1yfvs.jpg

4VjCvcD.jpg

They need to stretch, or the above happens. If what you're telling me is that it can be avoided, I just can't help but wonder why they didn't do it the first time all those years ago. It must be deemed too much time consuming or God knows what.

I'm not doubting you if you tell me it can be avoided, but it's pretty obvious we'll notice the difference and not in a good way if they make it happen like this. So I'm going to give the negative and rather have them work on the engine limitations for mesh calls.

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