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TennoGen Round 7 Release and Prime Model Update


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1 hour ago, Roikan said:

Am I the only one who secretly wanted this from the beginning, since Prime Frames have extra mesh parts that break the flow of the finely-crafted tennogen skins?

No. That is the exact reason they implemented the change.

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17 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Now, below:
<snip>

They need to stretch, or the above happens. If what you're telling me is that it can be avoided, I just can't help but wonder why they didn't do it the first time all those years ago. It must be deemed too much time consuming or God knows what.

I'm not doubting you if you tell me it can be avoided, but it's pretty obvious we'll notice the difference and not in a good way if they make it happen like this. So I'm going to give the negative and rather have them work on the engine limitations for mesh calls.

Except we already know it is possible to do by simply looking at Nidus's helmets. Helmets are not a part of the body mesh of the Warframe, they are attached bits exactly like the armor cosmetics. You see this sometimes as an error when parts of the body are missing, namely the head. Both of Nidus's helmets are animated when he adapts, and they animate in quite a different fashion. Next, look at Atlas, namely his Tennogen helmet, and see how the parts flex with the head as the head turns. This means weight mapping is able to be applied to attached mesh parts. So, in theory, there is nothing stopping this being a possible solution on the weight-mapping side.

Why weight mapping is no longer applied to shoulder parts for Oberon and Frost are likely tied to the object's material intent for the parts to be solid. It can also reduce work as a form of future proof should changes to the weight maps be made. Animations not made with those parts in mind can and do cause clipping, which can be seen with many cosmetics such as Ash's deluxe skin as a prime example, or most frames with cloth physics. Clipping is mostly unavoidable without extreme work on animations, the main requirements making that possible being not allowing animations to be shared and making unique animations for each character for each different movement, with variations made as new cosmetics are made that those characters can use (like a unique idle for deluxe skin ash to remove the clipping). This would mitigate clipping to be nearly nonexistent and allow meshes to retain their intended stiffness for their implied materials they are made from, but you can imagine the work that would require.

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20 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Except we already know it is possible to do by simply looking at Nidus's helmets. Helmets are not a part of the body mesh of the Warframe, they are attached bits exactly like the armor cosmetics. You see this sometimes as an error when parts of the body are missing, namely the head. Both of Nidus's helmets are animated when he adapts, and they animate in quite a different fashion. Next, look at Atlas, namely his Tennogen helmet, and see how the parts flex with the head as the head turns. This means weight mapping is able to be applied to attached mesh parts. So, in theory, there is nothing stopping this being a possible solution on the weight-mapping side.

Why weight mapping is no longer applied to shoulder parts for Oberon and Frost are likely tied to the object's material intent for the parts to be solid. It can also reduce work as a form of future proof should changes to the weight maps be made. Animations not made with those parts in mind can and do cause clipping, which can be seen with many cosmetics such as Ash's deluxe skin as a prime example, or most frames with cloth physics. Clipping is mostly unavoidable without extreme work on animations, the main requirements making that possible being not allowing animations to be shared and making unique animations for each character for each different movement, with variations made as new cosmetics are made that those characters can use (like a unique idle for deluxe skin ash to remove the clipping). This would mitigate clipping to be nearly nonexistent and allow meshes to retain their intended stiffness for their implied materials they are made from, but you can imagine the work that would require.

I know most of that, what I'm saying is the solution is going to be worst because they weren't designed with that in mind!

Volt's armor will not make a difference because the arm doesn't stretch, but on Oberon it does because of its design and placement on the shoulders (btw, Oberon totally needed to stretch, if you can take a good look at him you'll see the way Mynki designed him originally wasn't to have armor behave like it does now but had to be separated for the extra armor sets -- that's why he avoided all this stuff in later designs)

 

Now tell me what you'll do with Nekros Prime, or Rhino, or Ash, who have it much more rough. It's not going to be good, because most of these pieces will end up looking "disjointed" where they shouldn't be.

 

Again, when I say this kind of stuff I know where I'm heading: it's going ro be a totally bad idea, the best solution is either go the already planned route or have the programming team do the difficult work on the engine so we can choose the meshes.

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23 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

I know most of that, what I'm saying is the solution is going to be worst because they weren't designed with that in mind!

Volt's armor will not make a difference because the arm doesn't stretch, but on Oberon it does because of its design and placement on the shoulders (btw, Oberon totally needed to stretch, if you can take a good look at him you'll see the way Mynki designed him originally wasn't to have armor behave like it does now but had to be separated for the extra armor sets -- that's why he avoided all this stuff in later designs)

 

Now tell me what you'll do with Nekros Prime, or Rhino, or Ash, who have it much more rough. It's not going to be good, because most of these pieces will end up looking "disjointed" where they shouldn't be.

 

Again, when I say this kind of stuff I know where I'm heading: it's going ro be a totally bad idea, the best solution is either go the already planned route or have the programming team do the difficult work on the engine so we can choose the meshes.

They were designed to form-fit to the body, they are already modular from the body, just attached to the bones and weight mapped. They already disable parts on some skins that cant display those parts. The only change this would do is let you turn them off by making them work like an auxiliary armor piece. All armors behave this way, attach to bones and follow the mapped movements of that point. The design has absolutely zero required changes needed to the item aside from splitting it from the mesh and retaining the weight mapping. There would be no "disjointing" as you put it because they would be behaving and flexing exactly as they do right this instant. Basic edits to the default mesh, like on Nekros with his abdomen, would behave exactly as it does now with skins. If you are referring to the hanging parts, those are all a part of the auxiliary attachments and would have zero problem with behaving this way. Rhino? his only major difference is a gear on his back... thats the easiest one to do out of all the primes that have different mesh parts. This system is the same system the game I am working on now is using with modular attachments to NPCs, and its the same one DE has used in Warframe since the beginning of its cosmetic line.

You may think you know where you are heading but you are heading that way following a map that is wrong.

Edited by NeithanDiniem
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4 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Our creators not having access to Prime models to test how their pieces will look with the extra gold shiny bits

why not give them the models then? I would like to see a skin for example that specifically uses a prime model?

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Why not have two skins?

One set functions as an immortal skin, and the other is a deluxe skin, giving people the options to go with prime bits or not. This way it bypasses the toggle function.

After all, it looks like two kinds currently exist. The old style, and this new one that is about to replace the old style.

Why not have both?

Edited by kitsu
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: Forgive me for my lack of technical know-how, but I see it as this. Recently with Excalibur Prime they gave the option to choose between regular Excalibur and Excalibur Prime skins, (something I wish they'd do for all primes but let's tackle one problem at a time.) So why don't they do something similar with tennogen skins and just have it be two separate options for prime Warframes? One with prime bits as it is now, and one with the skin on the stock model. And just give the default option for non prime frames. Kinda like this

D351F44A9FFA2000C41DD786408A60B3D924EBB1So my question is, if a system that could potentially solve the issue is already in place, why not just use that?

Edited by Alaskant
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10 hours ago, DeejayPwny said:

I'm utterly devastated that my Valkyr Prime is going look so bland now. I bought the Valkyr Graxx Skin BECAUSE of how it looked with the Prime, but now that money is waster because default Prime is better than default Graxx. This is not a fair change as it doesn't suddenly make more people content, it just switches our places. Don't implement this change. 

Really? I personally despised how Valkyr Prime looked with the Graxx skin on. It ruined both looks for me, and I was really disappointed because I love the Graxx skin. This change actually makes me really happy.

I guess there are people on both sides of the argument. I personally didn't like the prime bits showing through at all, they usually clashed badly with the skin, in my opinion.

On a side note, why are people asking for refunds? The prime bits were never a part of the Tennogen skins in the first place. With them removed, you are still getting exactly what you paid for.

Edited by Tsaiorchis
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1 hour ago, Alaskant said:

: Forgive me for my lack of technical know-how, but I see it as this. Recently with Excalibur Prime they gave the option to choose between regular Excalibur and Excalibur Prime skins, (something I wish they'd do for all primes but let's tackle one problem at a time.) So why don't they do something similar with tennogen skins and just have it be two separate options for prime Warframes? One with prime bits as it is now, and one with the skin on the stock model. And just give the default option for non prime frames. Kinda like this

The problem is not at all visible with excal prime as his prime parts are all localized to his helmet. The way it works for him is exactly the same way it works for every other frame currently. The reason there is backlash is because on the older primes the "prime parts" are minimal and do not obscure the new skins which in turn make them look fine if not "enhanced" by the prime parts. However, on newer primes like vauban, valkyr, nekros, etc., the skins look like S#&amp;&#036; because they are being majorly obscured. This, is also a sign for the future that tennogen skins will look like S#&amp;&#036; on all those frames which are going to be primed in the future. This is bad for the program in that people will not buy skins for these frames where they look like S#&amp;&#036;, and so the designers will not . work on those frames, and so you can see this leads to a conundrum of the tennogen program being dead in the water.

I am personally of the opinion that what they are doing is good. I bought the valkyr graxx before valk prime came and now that I have the prime I know I never use the skin which is a shame. It is unfortunate that people who like the skins with the prime parts attached will lose that functionality. I think it would be great if the choice between the two models was available, but I think the default if it is not possible should definitely be with the model the skin was designed for. These skins look great in their original design. Sometimes they look great on the prime model, but not always. If I had to choose between the models, I would choose the one where they always look great rather than the one where they sometimes look great.

Tl;dr the decision they are making is the correct one for the future health of the program. I'm sorry that some will lose an accidental functionality of their skins, and so I hope that DE can figure out a solution that gives the consumer a choice, but I am wholeheartedly against the idea that the skins should be left the way they are because people already spent money on them.

 

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You could have just made two versions of the skin, let those who buy it have the prime version and the normal base.
F*** the toggle, just do this (let it be two separate items) and everyone would be happy, how hard can it be? 
This will absolutely destroy every tennogen skin I have, I paid for the way it looked when I bought it, not to have it #*(&#036;%%@ months later.
I have bought prime access packs, I have bought plat, I have bought tennogen items.
I will not give you one cent more if this change goes through.
I'll also be requesting a full refund for tennogen items I already bought.

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1 hour ago, Vrcross said:

The problem is not at all visible with excal prime as his prime parts are all localized to his helmet.

Not sure you entirely understood my point. What I am saying is, if they have made it so you can swap between prime and non prime models here, why can they not elsewhere?

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I'm not quick to say this but that... is BS.

All we needed was 2 skins in stead of one. you have both of these models IN THE GAME NOW!

 

 

Goodbye my lovely Nova prime. DE seems to hate you.

ZVgSEoz.jpg

 

Please at the very least try to give all current skins a legacy version. Something that does not have to be pulled through in future skins. But losing these prime parts is just something I cant stand.

Edited by Airwolfen
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Personally my Volt prime with Amp skin looks great, and I loved the primed elements still poking out of the skin. 

The neck parts, the arm armor bits, even the little clippy bits near the neck. So I'm asking the question everyone asked, once again :

Why not make this idea of model swapping a toggle for those who are actually liking it as it is with the primed parts visible ? 

Edited by Cyriann
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9 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Every displayed aspect of the content shows it on the non-prime frame, making it be the intended particular purpose. 

This is patently untrue, you know it and so does everyone here as it has been pointed out many times and the rest of your nonsense falls away the second that assertion is proved false.

Anyway, this thread have proved useful in filling my ignore list if nothing else.

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47 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

Made this quickly based on a old screenshot found online.

But why was this not an option if model swaps are already available in this way.

fjT9JaH.jpg

This is exactly what I would expect them to be able to do with functionality that is already in the game, thank you.

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