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TennoGen Round 7 Release and Prime Model Update


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The technical level of this is probably beyond me with tables and indexreferencing leading to longer loadtimes or memeory increases.

But to me it sounds easier that what is being given as reasons.

If every session is loaded into memory based on what all tenno have equipped before the level starts, then why would a toggle or two skins make any real difference? 

If I equip a bunch of cosmetics and skins to my frame and weapons before mission, that is just my choices. Every time I start the game I see Excalibur. Sometimes wen I load a mission I don't have a head, have the wrong skin or am another warframe that I don't even own. So these issues allready exist.

If I equip Rhino Prime and the prime parts, like Valkyrs bonds or whatever extra model that is detachable, was made equippable - would that really affect the performance that much?

When I use Banshee in the Armory and equip a shoulderarmor to her left shoulder, her big spike dissappears. Is this not a perfect example of how this can be set up?

 

I feel I am missing some crucial piece of information here. Please help me understand! 

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1 hour ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

I missed it completely why exactly some parts showing through were an issue?

Because tennogen skins working on prime warframes was "happy accindent" and they shouldnt working, because creator dont have access to prime models to adjust skins for them

 

Looks like DE dont want to Prime warframes visual be replaced with tennogen, only with on the house Deluxe skins

Edited by Myscho
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1 hour ago, arch111 said:

The technical level of this is probably beyond me with tables and indexreferencing leading to longer loadtimes or memeory increases.

But to me it sounds easier that what is being given as reasons.

If every session is loaded into memory based on what all tenno have equipped before the level starts, then why would a toggle or two skins make any real difference? 

If I equip a bunch of cosmetics and skins to my frame and weapons before mission, that is just my choices. Every time I start the game I see Excalibur. Sometimes wen I load a mission I don't have a head, have the wrong skin or am another warframe that I don't even own. So these issues allready exist.

If I equip Rhino Prime and the prime parts, like Valkyrs bonds or whatever extra model that is detachable, was made equippable - would that really affect the performance that much?

When I use Banshee in the Armory and equip a shoulderarmor to her left shoulder, her big spike dissappears. Is this not a perfect example of how this can be set up?

 

I feel I am missing some crucial piece of information here. Please help me understand! 

They separated the model of the armor, and now it looks worse than before :) Driven me nuts every night for 3 years now :) :) (Need to say the Animation guys tried their best to solve all existing issues, mind you). If you had any love for any frame that had this happen back in the day, you would understand why the hell I'm so against it. I don't care what I'm told that can or cannot be done to fix that, it's obvious it won't happen, so no.

Let me quote [DE]Draice, from 2014, on this:

Quote

Those default armour positions, funnily enough have been returned to their natural positions. One of our Technical Animators went in himself and placed it by hand, using the default models as a reference. If you check out Ember Prime now, you'll notice that the shoulder attachments now fit smoothly against her skin, instead of skewing out slightly now.  

 

I just had a look at Frost and Frost Prime now as well, and the default armour is aligned so that the steam FX are jetting out of the circular vent, so that's how you can tell that they are in the correct position. I did just shift Banshee's shoulderpad back slightly, so when viewing from behind, it looks like a separate piece of armour, instead of lego blocks clicking into her skin. It should be in today's patch, and I think it does improve her visually fidelity quite a bit. The other Warframes look to be in a pretty good spot to me.

 

Most of the clipping issues will occur because the armour no longer stretches with the Warframe's animations. I'll take another look at Frost tomorrow, but I don't think there will be much more I can do for him. Sorry I couldn't give you an answer that would make everything work like it did before.  

To put another example: Have you seen how when Nekros Prime breathes, the wing parts attached to his shoulders go in the opposite direction instead of actually following suit and looking like a single part of the body, like any human with those attached would look like using actual real world physics? That's what I don't want to happen EVERYWHERE.

If people would refund some skins because of some Prime bits, what should I do then? Ask refunds of whole Prime Accesses I purchased? Not something I'd like to even say (it's silly). And the fact those would be changed to accomodate some people who want skins to work in a way they were not meant to in the first place would make me so mad I don't have even words to describe it.

Edited by NightmareT12
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13 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

As you know February 15 is the plan for this for PC - but based on the heat here we're honestly scrambling a bit to figure out a way to have our cake and eat it too.

Please please PLEASE think this through. We who enjoy the Prime attachments are at a severe disadvantage here when it comes to cosmetics. For the players who don't like said attachments, they can:

  • use the regular Warframe
  • use a Deluxe skin
  • (if this change goes through) use a Tennogen skin

However, those of us who want a Prime-looking frame can only wear an Immortal skin, or nothing at all - except that most Immortal skins aren't that great designed or offer much of a difference from the default pattern, not to mention at this point there's no guarantee they won't be changed as well, considering how Trinity's work on the Prime version.

I like spending money on the game because I love its art style and I want to support it. I've bought Trinity and Valkyr Prime Access so far, and was thinking about buying the next PA as a means of showing I like the art direction the game is taking. Yet, if I'm going to be constantly deprived of cosmetic options for Prime-looking Warframes, then I'll have to reconsider spending money on them at all. Whilst Prime Warframes have stunning models, they sorely lack in the skin design area, which is where Tennogen skins would come in to save my day. I want to have my cake and eat it too.

Also, call me ignorant, but if a simple 'on/off' toggle isn't viable, then what about giving us two versions of the same Tennogen skin like others have already suggested? One that uses the Prime Warframe mesh and another that uses the default Warframe mesh? Yes, it would be more data, but I can't believe that isn't viable either.

I've been here since U12, through the good times and the bad times. I've seen all sorts of things come and go, and every time there's been a quarrel like this you people have come up with a solution that worked for both parties (Remember the legacy colour palettes? Pepperidge Farm remembers). Which is why I trust you that you can come up with a solution this time. Please think this through before you move on.

TL;DR Please give us more options, rather than remove the few we currently have.

This post brought to you by martian oasis jellyfish and morning coffee.

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1 hour ago, NightmareT12 said:

They separated the model of the armor, and now it looks worse than before :) Driven me nuts every night for 3 years now :) :) (Need to say the Animation guys tried their best to solve all existing issues, mind you). If you had any love for any frame that had this happen back in the day, you would understand why the hell I'm so against it. I don't care what I'm told that can or cannot be done to fix that, it's obvious it won't happen, so no.

Let me quote [DE]Draice, from 2014, on this:

To put another example: Have you seen how when Nekros Prime breathes, the wing parts attached to his shoulders go in the opposite direction instead of actually following suit and looking like a single part of the body, like any human with those attached would look like using actual real world physics? That's what I don't want to happen EVERYWHERE.

If people would refund some skins because of some Prime bits, what should I do then? Ask refunds of whole Prime Accesses I purchased? Not something I'd like to even say (it's silly). And the fact those would be changed to accomodate some people who want skins to work in a way they were not meant to in the first place would make me so mad I don't have even words to describe it.

You say if the extra parts are made separate, they will be more static and rigid? 

Yes I can believe that.

In this case it would have to be 2 prime-binds. 

1: like today. I model with flexible meshes.

2: body + primeparts.

How costly would it be? No idea. If DE spent time on it I think that is the roadblock cause time=cost.

In game should be no different than today really.

So 1 FBX as 1 mesh.

And 1 FBX as 2 meshes/groups.

Oooor ..... ?

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18 minutes ago, arch111 said:

You say if the extra parts are made separate, they will be more static and rigid? 

Yes I can believe that.

In this case it would have to be 2 prime-binds. 

1: like today. I model with flexible meshes.

2: body + primeparts.

How costly would it be? No idea. If DE spent time on it I think that is the roadblock cause time=cost.

In game should be no different than today really.

So 1 FBX as 1 mesh.

And 1 FBX as 2 meshes/groups.

Oooor ..... ?

Basically. IDK the technical details, but I know what my eyes see, which is that the pieces or the animations or whatever needs to be done so it looks good are not updated for these.

So it's only logical to think they would treat them the same on Primes. Plus, some Primes are straight out mesh modifications and not extra bits.

The only real viable solution is the mesh selector, no matter how difficult it is to implement. It will be completely worth it for everyone.

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14 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Please remember that the old way offered a choice.

  • Want the normal mesh, use a normal Warframe
  • Want a prime mesh, use a prime Warframe

Players could sacrifice a small amount of statistical advantage for their preferred look

With this change you are forcing all players you accept one solution that is counter what was presented when the item was bought.

I try to avoid overreaction, but Tennogen items are not cheap for what they are (Though in absolute sense they are not expensive) to have that ripped out for under me really hurts my trust in DE's ability to respect fiscal investiture in this game.

And really? fiscal trust is what makes people like me keep giving you money.

:/ I expect to get the product I see presented when I buy it, not the none mentioned the prime bits that I'm confronted with after purchase. Those should have never been a thing to begin with. Tennogen isn't "cheap" indeed, and that's even more reason I should get exactly what i pay for. It's important to note that slots, and in some cases plat spend on Prime or normal frames are also (albeit cheaper) expenditure's.

It also bothers me that you use the argument of being forced into a solution, all the while doing the same thing.

If anything, either we need full pre-purchase visibility of prime and none prime  variance, sell prime/normal versions separately, or just sell the skin as it's presented for both normal/prime frames. I don;t understand why I have to keep both normal and prime frames just so I can enjoy a skin that should be interchangeable, which is the case with weapon skins.

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Just give us TWO models broooooooooooooooo! so everybody win.

I think DE currently is pretty BIG enough to add more infrastructure to tackle this issue, many people already spent real money even to hundreds $ into this game (Prime Access, Prime Vault, Founder Pack, Tennogen) just don't tell us you don't have the dough for this one it's really mind boggling.

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Will we still be able to use prime accessories like Volt Prime and Mag Prime's shoulders?

Kind of sad that my Nova Prime will get messed with, but at least my Graxx Nyx Prime and Valkyr Prime wont have prime parts obscuring their details.

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well there goes the hopes of me ever buying anymore tennogen stuff

 

even regret owning the stuff I do have now would of been nice to see caduto+umbra

 

I really really think you guys should of just put in a bit of effort and added a toggle, its a feature kinda needed anyways for immortal skins, not to mention it would increase the variety of looks you could do with a prime

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6 hours ago, Alaskant said:

Not sure you entirely understood my point. What I am saying is, if they have made it so you can swap between prime and non prime models here, why can they not elsewhere?

No I understood your point. I am saying that you are not understanding what is happening with your excal skins. They function exactly the same way all other primes function. Excal prime just has no prime model enhancements on the body of his skin so it just looks like the standard model with all of his skins.

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2 hours ago, Lynxh said:

:/ I expect to get the product I see presented when I buy it, not the none mentioned the prime bits that I'm confronted with after purchase.

I was presented with the prime bits when I purchased, because I did so via the armoury by selecting the skin an immediately seeing what it looked like on my current warframe, which was a prime. I also expect to get the product I was presented with, and I was presented with a texture-only skin on the prime mesh.

2 hours ago, Lynxh said:

It also bothers me that you use the argument of being forced into a solution, all the while doing the same thing.

I wasn't proposing a solution I was pointing out that the previous state offered a choice (With associated costs in retaining warframes and limiting stats), the new proposed state does not, and in fact removes a choice that may have been the reason for a purchase.

2 hours ago, Lynxh said:

I don;t understand why I have to keep both normal and prime frames just so I can enjoy a skin that should be interchangeable, which is the case with weapon skins.

That it an implementation detail. My point was simply to contrast what we currently have with what (according to the OP) we will be forced to accept regardless of the advertised state during purchase.

The idea solution would be to allow either mesh with texture-only skins, obviously, as many have said, but so far DE have said no to that. In the absence of that option the current state is objectively superior than the "new" state as any player can choose to use the prime or non prime mesh by using the prime or non prime warframes.

Edited by SilentMobius
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4 hours ago, MartianJellyfish said:

Please please PLEASE think this through. We who enjoy the Prime attachments are at a severe disadvantage here when it comes to cosmetics.

In addition to this, the proposed change devalues Prime Warframes as anyone who might consider a skin now has to accept that the Prime appearance of a Warframe is going to be removed the second they find a skin they like.

Given the revenue model of Prime access I don't think devaluing prime (including retroactively) is a wise move.

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DE, I just want to say thank you for this change. I've been hoping for this for months and I'm thrilled to see you finally implement it and use the base frames since that's what the content creators obviously had in mind when they created these skins. I plan to purchase many more Tennogen skins going forward due to this change.

Reading through this thread makes me a bit sad to see so much push back. I understand some of their concerns, but I think they are overrepresented as a whole. Like with any change, you will hear from the negative side a lot more than the positive side. Most of the people happy with this change aren't going to post about it or send you fan letters, instead you'll mostly only be hearing from the minority that's against the change and furiously typing hate mail towards your art team. 

You have my sympathies, and my sincere thanks for going though with this long awaited change. 

Edited by Namahs
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4 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

In addition to this, the proposed change devalues Prime Warframes as anyone who might consider a skin now has to accept that the Prime appearance of a Warframe is going to be removed the second they find a skin they like.

Given the revenue model of Prime access I don't think devaluing prime (including retroactively) is a wise move.

That's a bit of circular logic that either side of the argument can use. Observe:

Many players have grown to love the base models, and they may refuse to buy Prime Access since it's too gaudy and doesn't work with their favorite skins and ruins the look of the warframe they have grown to love. For example, I know Valkyr Prime mains who refused to buy or farm for Valkyr Prime because they think it looks terrible and they just love the look of the base model. Therefore to sell more Prime Access, the obvious answer is to let players buy Prime Access for the Prime stat bonus but keep their beloved base model via optional Tennogen skins.

I admit I'm being a bit facetious there, but you see my point. Either side can claim their side represents "more Prime Access sales". It's a cheap argument to try and get sales revenue on your side of the debate when there's no proof that's the case. I think the value of Tennogen skins allowing people to change the entire model is a net asset, not a loss. Look at the Deluxe Skins, those cost extra and they override the Prime bits and make Primes and base warframes look the same. I don't see anyone arguing that Deluxe Skins are hurting sales for Prime Access.

Edited by Namahs
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This is my first post on the forum (long time lurker), which might go some way to express how strongly I feel about this.

Please don't force non-Prime skins on those who don't want them. I've bought numerous TG skins specifically for how they look on my Prime frames. Taking that away is unfair, and I will reluctantly be seeking a refund for skins I've bought.

I hate that my first post is so negative, but Fashionframe matters!

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6 minutes ago, Namahs said:

DE, I just want to say thank you for this change. I've been hoping for this for months and I'm thrilled to see you finally implement it and use the base frames since that's what the content creators obviously had in mind when they created these skins. I plan to purchase many more Tennogen skins going forward due to this change.

Reading through this thread makes me a bit sad to see so much push back. I understand some of their concerns, but I think they are overrepresented as a whole. Most of the people happy with this change aren't going to post about it or send you fan letters, instead you'll mostly only be hearing from the minority that's against the change and furiously typing hate mail towards your art team. 

You have my sympathies, and my sincere thanks for going though with this long awaited change. 

Lets totally ignore the pushback and hate the other side gave in other threads when there was no change planned yet.

And think about what other people think and compromise before putting them down as an unimportant minority.

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2 minutes ago, Namahs said:

That's a bit of circular logic that either side of the argument can use. Observe:

You are mistaken

2 minutes ago, Namahs said:

That's a bit of circular logic that either side of the argument can use. Observe:

Many players have grown to love the base models, and they may refuse to buy Prime Access since it's too gaudy and doesn't work with their favorite skins and ruins the look of the warframe they have grown to love. For example, I know Valkyr Prime mains who refused to buy or farm for Valkyr Prime because they think it looks terrible and they just love the look of the base model. Therefore to sell more Prime Access, the obvious answer is to let players buy Prime Access for the Prime stat bonus but keep their beloved base model. 

The Prime Warframe has two value propositions:

  • The Look
  • The Stats

These are the reasons to purchase. Those who do not like the look already view the purchase at only half it's value. If they wish to use a different look then they are placing value in some other product that provides the look (It has already been stated that Primes will never be allowed to look just like the regular Warframes, because they are primes).

Just because some consumers don't find value in half of the value proposition of a product does not in any way imply that the reduction in that value will make them value the product more. All you are doing it making the other product (Tennogen) worth more at the expense of this product (Primes)

And Primes are a much bigger ticket item to DE.

So no, the other "side" of the argument doesn't hold weight.

 

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5 hours ago, Namahs said:

DE, I just want to say thank you for this change. I've been hoping for this for months and I'm thrilled to see you finally implement it and use the base frames since that's what the content creators obviously had in mind when they created these skins. I plan to purchase many more Tennogen skins going forward due to this change.

Reading through this thread makes me a bit sad to see so much push back. I understand some of their concerns, but I think they are overrepresented as a whole. Like with any change, you will hear from the negative side a lot more than the positive side

There's nothing positive about any of this.

I didn't own many tennogen skins as I mainly was buying syandanas and even that not so often, but after looking at Nyx for example with her Athena skin and the difference it makes like seriously?

Yrnhger.jpgKQNKtUP.jpg

83sf6GE.jpgo9hpvUh.jpg

It's like 2 different skins for crying out loud - even despite they have almost identical color setting they look different even without the prime parts so seriosly? Seriously?

On some frames like Frost I hardly can see the difference on the skin I got but other skins?

It's already working on existing skins, the absolute least you can do is to let it be because safe to say everyone with a very very few exceptions run prime frames over standard ones and when they buy skins they often have no slightest clue that they would look worse on a 'normal' frame. Considering how much tennogen skins cost it's unnaceptable. Work for you money for once, if creators of the skins have no access to it then it's your job to make those things work - especially considering some are already working. So you don't even have to do anything with them (at least), literally.

Edited by Nomen_Nescio
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Man i love this but at the same time....sure am gonna miss Vauban Prime's long coat. Some primes have that cool look that the vanilla frames should've had and others don't, Vauban Prime is 1 of those that has what the vanilla needed, even tho it's just longer coat tails. With Ash Prime on the other hand...this is welcome, tho i like his model, i always felt those giant armor plates on his arms looked off.

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I really hope they will find a solution to give us a choice. I bought a lot of tennogen skins because of those prime bits (Nyx Athena for example). The prime parts were not even that bad on most frames except Saryn and Nova imo, they should have just adjusted the problematic ones.

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19 minutes ago, SSI_Seraph said:

I really hope they will find a solution to give us a choice. I bought a lot of tennogen skins because of those prime bits (Nyx Athena for example). The prime parts were not even that bad on most frames except Saryn and Nova imo, they should have just adjusted the problematic ones.

I am sure the best way is two sets, one with visible bling and one without.

Some Primes might look really cool without the Prime parts, some work just fine with them on.

 

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