fixing continuous weapons made easy

[Gahrzerkire]

continous weapons in warframe are done horribly. why would a continous weapon have a firerate? why do they have firerates? shouldnt they... not. just have flat out damage per second? and then well... a number of statuses per second? for example:

you list damage like this:

Quanta Vandal:

electric 220 electric per second

5 status procs per second

status chance mods directly boost the status count. 

done, i balanced all the beam weapons and made them not **** e-z.

(this status per second thing, is one of the worst systems ive ever seen.)

and then you make it so firerate mods do nothing to continous weapons. 

 

IE they become the best status weapons in the game, at least the ones with elem damage spreads, however they cannot use firerate mods, and as a result lose a massive source of damage, made up for... dun dun dun by status.

go DE. fix all these bad weapons. i know being a programmer that its easy, no more excuses please. fix. them.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Gear-hart

[AdunSaveMe]

Just now, Gear-hart said:

shouldnt they... not. just have flat out damage per second? and then well... a number of statuses per second?

That's exactly the same as a fire rate though. How it works now and what you suggest are the same; number of ticks over time.

1 minute ago, Gear-hart said:

i know being a programmer that its easy

Really? What games have you worked on? I'm interested to see your experience.

[NightBlitz]

im sure that it has something to do with the way the game is coded, and they still use ammo, so why the heck wouldn't they have a fire rate? it determines the rate of ammo consumption for them, so there would likely be complications if they removed fire rate from them..

 

oh, and if you changed how status worked with them, the ignis would likely become very broken

[Pyus]

11 minutes ago, Gear-hart said:

this status per second thing, is one of the worst systems ive ever seen

The Soma prime has a fire rate of 15 rounds/sec, and a status chance of 10%, meaning without mods the Soma Prime has a "Status/Sec" rate of 150%

Compair this to the Ignis, which has a 25% status per second, or .025% status chance per round. 

It's ridiculous and one type of systematic problem that plagues warframe, changes are made, promises made to review and then the changes are forgotten about for years. (see focus, Ash rework feed back, heavy caliber accuracy bugs ect ect ect.) 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Pyus

[Gahrzerkire]

1 minute ago, Pyus said:

The Soma prime has a fire rate of 15 rounds/sec, and a status chance of 10%, meaning without mods the Soma Prime has a "Status/Sec" rate of 150%

Compair this to the Ignis, which has a 25% status per second, or .025% status chance per round. 

It's ridiculous and one type of systematic problem that plagues warframe, changes are made, promeses made to review and forgotten about for years. (see focus, Ash rework feed back, heavy caliber accuracy bugs ect ect ect.) 

dude..............................................................

if i flip a coin 40 times and it lands tails every time. i still have a 50% chance of getting heads.

i.e. the soma prime's status per second is significantly lower then 150% per second. significantly lower. cause even if 14 of the 15 shots a second dont proc a status, youll still have a 10% chance of procing a status on the final shot. 

the problem with status weapons is not there status chance, its the fact they will never ever apply as many statuses as literally any other weapon in the space of a second, short weapons that lack status all together. 

[Airwolfen]

53 minutes ago, Pyus said:

The Soma prime has a fire rate of 15 rounds/sec, and a status chance of 10%, meaning without mods the Soma Prime has a "Status/Sec" rate of 150%

Compair this to the Ignis, which has a 25% status per second, or .025% status chance per round. 

If only chance calculations were as simple. 150%status/s would mean that you HAVE to get at least 1 proc in those 15 shots. So what is the chance to proc in those 15 shots?
First, lets do it the other way around.

What is the chance of none of those shots applying a status:
1 shot has a 90% chance to fail. 0.9 probability basically
2 shots would be calculated as: 0.9*0.9
3 shots: 0.9*0.9*0.9
Bla bla bla
15 shots is therefor 0.9^15

0.9^15 = 0.206
*100 = 20.6%

so 20.6% chance that NONE of the shots proc

> Now reverse that and then you get 79.4% chance to get at least one proc in that second.

Of course this is still no average proc chance per second. But I'm not willing to dive into that probability. 

[(PSN)salovel1991]

1 hour ago, NightBlitz said:

im sure that it has something to do with the way the game is coded, and they still use ammo, so why the heck wouldn't they have a fire rate? it determines the rate of ammo consumption for them, so there would likely be complications if they removed fire rate from them..

 

oh, and if you changed how status worked with them, the ignis would likely become very broken

Well as it stands with beam weapons they're in a miserable state. They're only allowed 1 chance to proc per second. On some weapons the ammo consumption is decent on others it is a nightmare. The quanta is okay but other beam status weapons suffer. 

[Airwolfen]

Also looked into the Ignis example a bit. purely by narrowing it down by trial and error I got to about 2.75% status in standard status chance terms.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

I agree with the point made by OP that continuous weapons should be reworked somehow. Some of these weapons were good in the past and after the "fix" became really bad.

It doesnt make any sense to " balance" continuous weapons this way and after that keep introducing powercreep weapons like akstiletto prime, tigris prime etc... 

[EHDERCOOLSTE]

They broke continuous weapons when they reduced up popping damage numbers. Since then continuous weapons have not been instantly dealing damage: eg. you have to shoot at everything for at least a second before it even gets one damage proc. It has been like this for over two years and I doubt this will be fixed any time soon.

Maybe they'll fix continuous weapons when they develop some new fancy continuous weapon or bring some prime continuous weapons but not before.

[shut]

9 hours ago, Pyus said:

Compair this to the Ignis, which has a 25% status per second, or .025% status chance per round.

Erm, if the Ignis has 25% status per second and fires at 10 rounds per second, then each round effectively has a ~2.5% status chance. I think you forgot to multiply by 100 to convert the status chance back into a percentage.

But yeah, I totally agree with your post. Continuous weapons' status mechanics are painful to work with at the moment, considering that landing a guaranteed status proc in 1 second is really, really depressing compared to something like the Tigris Prime (which can land 35 Status procs simultaneously by just tapping M1).

Edited February 16, 2017 by SortaRandom

[shut]

47 minutes ago, EHDERCOOLSTE said:

They broke continuous weapons when they reduced up popping damage numbers. Since then continuous weapons have not been instantly dealing damage: eg. you have to shoot at everything for at least a second before it even gets one damage proc. It has been like this for over two years and I doubt this will be fixed any time soon.

Maybe they'll fix continuous weapons when they develop some new fancy continuous weapon or bring some prime continuous weapons but not before.

Man, I miss the old system so much. I absolutely can't stand using continuous weapons today because of that delay (where killing a single enemy can take up to a third of a second longer than it should), but I constantly find myself switching to Operator mode in the middle of a mission and spamming M1 just because of how satisfying it feels.

Void Beam still uses the old continuous weapon mechanics for some reason (meaning that shooting something causes a crapton of numbers to pop up)-- making it very responsive when it comes to killing an enemy, just like a regular gun.

Edited February 16, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Gahrzerkire]

20 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Man, I miss the old system so much. I absolutely can't stand using continuous weapons today because of that delay (where killing a single enemy can take up to a third of a second longer than it should), but I constantly find myself switching to Operator mode in the middle of a mission and spamming M1 just because of how satisfying it feels.

Void Beam still uses the old continuous weapon mechanics for some reason (meaning that shooting something causes a crapton of numbers to pop up)-- making it very responsive when it comes to killing an enemy, just like a regular gun.

This is the thing, they dont even need to calculate the damage like that, it could literally be treated like a regular gun, with one shot a second (or every 30 frames), and then they display a health bar animation that is a continous stream of health dropping after that shot (and if you swap targets you do a tiny bit of math as to the time you were on that target (say 3/4ths of a second) in relation to your guns now completely FLAT DPS (say 10K) (there it took 7.5k damage)), and display damage numbers that are 25th's of the amount of damage dealt "per shot" and then they just apply whatever the (procs/second) value is over the course of a second, and make it something like 3 at default, for medium status weapons 5 for high status weapons. (even though it should probs be 1 for weak status (full modded rifle would have 4 status's per second), 2 for a medium status (8) 4 for a high status (16)) (yes i am saying that split chamber should be multipicative of the status chance mods on continous weapons, and yes. thats why all firerate mods should be useless on them.) 

Make it so split chamber DOUBLES this number, and status chance increases it by a percentage, and that is the number of proc's you get per second. BUT make all firerate mods completely useless on continous weapons, afterall you cant really shoot a laser beam FASTER. 

EDIT:
Coding this would take a day if you know what your doing, MAYBE, two days, but its not that hard to do. I am a programmer, and getting a bachelors degree in game design. It isnt hard to do, i know what i am talking about. Unless they have some god awful damage, and networking code somewhere... it really shouldnt be that bad, but if that is the case, they should really fix that first.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Gear-hart

[shut]

20 minutes ago, Gear-hart said:

This is the thing, they dont even need to calculate the damage like that, it could literally be treated like a regular gun, and then they display a health bar animation that is a continous stream, and damage numbers that are 25th's of the amount of damage dealt "per shot" and then they just apply whatever the (procs/second) value is over the course of a second, and make it something like 3 at default, for medium status weapons 5 for high status weapons.

That seems like a really roundabout method.
If they took the current beam rate and just changed it from "3 ticks/s" to "15 ticks/s", then many of the problems with the beam weapon rework (especially regarding responsiveness) would be instantly solved.

I can't really comment on the Status/Second thing, though, since I don't fully understand how it works in the first place. (For example-- if Status/sec is 100% on one gun and 200% on another, then how does each gun's status behave per tick? If you tapfire each gun ten times a second instead of letting them fire continuously, do you get more procs? I haven't tested either of these yet, so I have no clue how it works.)

 

20 minutes ago, Gear-hart said:

Make it so split chamber DOUBLES this number

It already does. Split Chamber straight-up multiplies each damage tick's value by 1.9.

20 minutes ago, Gear-hart said:

BUT make all firerate mods completely useless on continous weapons, afterall you cant really shoot a laser beam FASTER. 

I get where you're going from a realism perspective, but at the same time, this would be a HUGE nerf to continuous weapons. It would take away a lot of build variety, and it would remove the option for players to deal crazy damage at the cost of ammo efficiency.

And even if you do want to be realistic about it, you could always imagine that fire-rate mods on lasers are just improvements to the intensity of the beam (at the cost of needing more fuel). This is already a billion times more plausible than firing two rockets out of one barrel.

Edited February 16, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Gahrzerkire]

4 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

That seems like a really roundabout method.
If they took the current beam rate and just changed it from "3 ticks/s" to "15 ticks/s", then many of the problems with the beam weapon rework (especially regarding responsiveness) would be instantly solved.

I can't really comment on the Status/Second thing, though, since I don't fully understand how it works in the first place. (For example-- if Status/sec is 100% on one gun and 200% on another, then how does each gun's status behave per tick? If you tapfire each gun ten times a second instead of letting them fire continuously, do you get more procs? I haven't tested either of these yet, so I have no clue how it works.)

It already does. Split Chamber straight-up multiplies each damage tick's value by 1.9.

I get where you're going from a realism perspective, but at the same time, this would be a HUGE nerf to continuous weapons. It would take away a lot of build variety, and it would remove the option for players to deal crazy damage at the cost of ammo efficiency.

And even if you do want to be realistic about it, you could always imagine that fire-rate mods on lasers are just improvements to the intensity of the beam (at the cost of needing more fuel). This is already a billion times more plausible than firing two rockets out of one barrel.

what i am saying in the large paragraph in the beginning of that post, is you use the same code you would use for any other gun in the game, but you display the damage differently, and maybe you make the attacks per second one, and spread the DPS across that, or the attacks per second the same as the damage value display per second. 

Honestly... most current continous weapons dont seem to get there damage from firerate, and pretty much every build i use and see used does not have a firerate mod. what i am saying is leave their base DPS the same, and at the sacrifice of something they dont really need much, i.e. firerate, give them better status. this would be a huge buff dude. trust me. 

The main point is this, they can fix, they know how to fix it, there are tons of options, 90-100% of them can be coded in a day, some in less then a minute by moving values around. the point is, weapon balance in this game is done at a snails pace. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Gear-hart

[shut]

5 hours ago, Gear-hart said:

what i am saying in the large paragraph in the beginning of that post, is you use the same code you would use for any other gun in the game, but you display the damage differently, and maybe you make the attacks per second one, and spread the DPS across that, or the attacks per second the same as the damage value display per second.

Why is this necessary, though? If we want continuous weapons to be more gun-like, literally all we have to do is revert to the old mechanics and call it a day. Adding needless inconsistencies only causes further confusion.

5 hours ago, Gear-hart said:

Honestly... most current continous weapons dont seem to get there damage from firerate, and pretty much every build i use and see used does not have a firerate mod. what i am saying is leave their base DPS the same, and at the sacrifice of something they dont really need much, i.e. firerate, give them better status. this would be a huge buff dude. trust me.

Every continuous weapon gets extra damage from fire rate. And I'm sensing that "pretty much every build i use and see used" only includes you and a couple of (pre-Ammo-Case?) posts from folks who like their Amprexes / Synoid Gammacors ammo-efficient, and/or don't ever want to switch to their secondary.

Shockingly, the fact that fire rate boosts DPS by a crapton makes them very desirable for weapons that can afford the ammo cost (e.g. Phage, Quanta Vandal, Not-Synoid Gammacor). Removing fire rate mods would be a devastating hit to these already-rare weapons, and for what benefit? Are Continuous weapons so overpowered that you need to take away their damage and build variety to keep them in check?

5 hours ago, Gear-hart said:

The main point is this, they can fix, they know how to fix it, there are tons of options, 90-100% of them can be coded in a day, some in less then a minute by moving values around. the point is, weapon balance in this game is done at a snails pace. 

I'm beginning to doubt that you have a bachelor's degree in game design.

Edited February 17, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Gahrzerkire]

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

Why is this necessary, though? If we want continuous weapons to be more gun-like, literally all we have to do is revert to the old mechanics and call it a day. Adding needless inconsistencies only causes further confusion.

Every continuous weapon gets extra damage from fire rate. And I'm sensing that "pretty much every build i use and see used" only includes you and a couple of (pre-Ammo-Case?) posts from folks who like their Amprexes / Synoid Gammacors ammo-efficient, and/or don't ever want to switch to their secondary.

Shockingly, the fact that fire rate boosts DPS by a crapton makes them very desirable for weapons that can afford the ammo cost (e.g. Phage, Quanta Vandal, Not-Synoid Gammacor). Removing fire rate mods would be a devastating hit to these already-rare weapons, and for what benefit? Are Continuous weapons so overpowered that you need to take away their damage and build variety to keep them in check?

I'm beginning to doubt that you have a bachelor's degree in game design.

You are right i dont, im currently in a bachelors degree program for game design. 

No actually Sortarandom, that includes me, my entire clan, and lots of people who come to me asking for DPS builds. But that isnt the point. 

DE has never reverted back to something that "used to be a specific way" they dont like admitting they were wrong about something. Moving on, im not saying my way of doing something is the only way to do it, or that my way is the best way. Im saying my way is one way that would work. Also 16 guaranteed procs per second on the quanta would be insanely powerful. you could strip a target of armor nigh instantly with your beam (level 70 gunners take roughly 30-34 corrosive procs, you would achieve this in two seconds assuming you had split chamber, and 2 status chance mods) and then nuke em with secondary fire. 

What i am proposing is make beam weapons the GOD status weapon, the end all status weapons. And as a downside make some mod type, nigh completely useless to them. there are plenty of weapons like that in this game.

(also here are some solutions to S#&$ty status chance on beam weapons that take literally 2 seconds: change the number for base status per second, change the numbers they are using to calculate time in relation to frame rate, system clocks, or whatever time system they use (probably a denominator, probubly needs to be smaller). I willing to bet LARGE amounts of money, 200-300$ that they could change between 10-5 numbers and have continous weapons functional and effective agian. on top of that, i am willing to bet that getting the damage display code to work (one way or the other, not including a UI element) would also be between 2-10 number changes at max.

(Disclaimer: this is provided that their coders arent completely incompetent and use the same code for damage calculation across weapons. Weapons are probubly just objects that they literally have to change a few numbers on to get to function the way we want them too, i would also bet that the code for continuous weapons and non continuous is already identical except for 2-3 "if" statements here and there, but that isn't the point of this, the point is, its not that complicated to change.) 

Final note: The difference between continous weapons now and continous weapons in the past, i would imagine, is just the way they display their damage, and the way status is applied. I would also stipulate that is the same from continous weapons to hitscan weapons.

[shut]

47 minutes ago, Gear-hart said:

You are right i dont, im currently in a bachelors degree program for game design. 

Whoops, I misread that bit.
To prevent further confusion, you should probably stop claiming that you're a programmer.

47 minutes ago, Gear-hart said:

Also 16 guaranteed procs per second on the quanta would be insanely powerful. you could strip a target of armor nigh instantly with your beam (level 70 gunners take roughly 30-34 corrosive procs, you would achieve this in two seconds assuming you had split chamber, and 2 status chance mods) and then nuke em with secondary fire.

Where on earth are you getting 16 procs per second from? If the devs reverted continuous mechanics back to the original, then the Quanta would be landing only one tick (and therefore one proc) per second.

When I mentioned increasing the current tick rate and changing it from "3 ticks/s" to "15 ticks/s", that was for a hypothetical "if they are to keep the current beam mechanics". I didn't consider how a high "status/sec" stat would interact with that, since I don't understand the specifics of how it currently works in the first place. Judging from the rest of your posts, I don't think you do either.

47 minutes ago, Gear-hart said:

What i am proposing is make beam weapons the GOD status weapon, the end all status weapons. And as a downside make some mod type, nigh completely useless to them. there are plenty of weapons like that in this game.

Of course there are plenty of weapons like that in the game. However, there are zero entire weapon categories like that in the game.

Something like "____ stat is useless, _____ stat is king" should be a weapon-specific thing. Not something that applies to a gigantic group of weapons that are only related by mechanics alone.

47 minutes ago, Gear-hart said:

(also here are some solutions to S#&$ty status chance on beam weapons that take literally 2 seconds: change the number for base status per second, change the numbers they are using to calculate time in relation to frame rate, system clocks, or whatever time system they use (probably a denominator, probubly needs to be smaller). I willing to bet LARGE amounts of money, 200-300$ that they could change between 10-5 numbers and have continous weapons functional and effective agian. on top of that, i am willing to bet that getting the damage display code to work (one way or the other, not including a UI element) would also be between 2-10 number changes at max.

(Disclaimer: this is provided that their coders arent completely incompetent and use the same code for damage calculation across weapons. Weapons are probubly just objects that they literally have to change a few numbers on to get to function the way we want them too, i would also bet that the code for continuous weapons and non continuous is already identical except for 2-3 "if" statements here and there, but that isn't the point of this, the point is, its not that complicated to change.)

- DE does not need to alter the way time is calculated in order to improve continuous weapons.
- That's not what a denominator is.
- You are oversimplifying the difference between the mechanics of regular and continuous guns, and VASTLY oversimplifying how this is handled in a game's code. If you want to be a programmer in the future, step one is understanding that it's never this simple except in the cleanest, most ideal of situations. The Evolution engine does not provide such an environment.

47 minutes ago, Gear-hart said:

Final note: The difference between continous weapons now and continous weapons in the past, i would imagine, is just the way they display their damage

If you remember what continuous weapons were like before the change, you'd know this to be 100% false.
Like I said earlier, fixing the tick rate at 3 per second (i.e. "three chunks of damage per second", not "three big numbers appear in a second while the health bar continuously drains") causes a noticeable difference in responsiveness of the weapon.

Edited February 17, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Gahrzerkire]

7 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Whoops, I misread that bit.
To prevent further confusion, you should probably stop claiming that you're a programmer.

No.

7 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Where on earth are you getting 16 procs per second from? If the devs reverted continuous mechanics back to the original, then the Quanta would be landing only one tick (and therefore one proc) per second.

^that comes from my solution to fix continuous weapons. The one where I said they should also remove firerate mods.

7 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

When I mentioned increasing the current tick rate and changing it from "3 ticks/s" to "15 ticks/s", that was for a hypothetical "if they are to keep the current beam mechanics". I didn't consider how a high "status/sec" stat would interact with that, since I don't understand the specifics of how it currently works in the first place. Judging from the rest of your posts, I don't think you do either.

Want me to prove it? Sure. 

"a tick" is simple the display of damage, its literally when they call to apply and display damage in their code. Framerate or time is everything in a game because almost all code runs once per frame.

f you are running at 30FPS and have a tick rate of 3 per second, you will have a damage number pop up every 10 frames. If you have it running at 60 FPS then every 20 frames. Tick rate of 15 per second is every 2 at 30, and every 4 at 60.

If we call ticks - t and seconds s in the equation for ticks per second t / s which is most likely what they are using to determine when to display damage.

if ((Currentframe % framerate) == (t / s)) {

CallforObjectInMouseXMouseYToTakeDamage(); 
Calltodisplaydamage();

}

(the underlined section can be written in like 12 billion different ways)

inside of the if statement it could have framerate, or time, i dont know which but that is one of the denominators that could be modified. though modifying the numeratoris probably easier to do. 

This is the thing, firerate doesnt increase ticks persecond, and is therefore NOT firerate, its just a damage mod that acts as a overall damage DPS increase. which is BS. firerate should increase the number of ticks per second.

fun fact, ticks per second and shots per second are the same damn thing. 

ticks and status per second are probubly coded identically, however it would make the most sense to treat each tick, like a shot from a gun, and then roll status chance on that. Instead of making ticks/statuses per second universal across all continous weapons, the number of stati per second should be determind by the number of ticks per second and the chanve that said weapon has to proc a status.
 

7 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Of course there are plenty of weapons like that in the game. However, there are zero entire weapon categories like that in the game.

Something like "____ stat is useless, _____ stat is king" should be a weapon-specific thing. Not something that applies to a gigantic group of weapons that are only related by mechanics alone.

My point is from an arbitrary stand point, if you drastically increase their overall DPS by increase status chance they need to lose something, why not firerate?

The truth is, i dont care what they lose, but if they lose something i would rather it be firerate then status. Especilaly because DE is so married to this status per second thing. When status should really be applied everytime the target takes damage, every tick, or whatever the hell you want to call it. (Even though its more like everytime they decide to display damage).
 

7 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

- DE does not need to alter the way time is calculated in order to improve continuous weapons.

- That's not what a denominator is.
- You are oversimplifying the difference between the mechanics of regular and continuous guns, and VASTLY oversimplifying how this is handled in a game's code. If you want to be a programmer in the future, step one is understanding that it's never this simple except in the cleanest, most ideal of situations. The Evolution engine does not provide such an environment.

If you remember what continuous weapons were like before the change, you'd know this to be 100% false.
Like I said earlier, fixing the tick rate at 3 per second (i.e. "three chunks of damage per second", not "three big numbers appear in a second while the health bar continuously drains") causes a noticeable difference in responsiveness of the weapon.

 - they could and to great effect.(see above) (though yes this isnt a clean solution i was simply listing quick fixes for the sake of illustrating how many times they could swap out one number to fix a problem)

- no that is

- no im not. if you want proof look for where i talk about what ticks are above. 

tickrate means nothing, and is a tiny amount of code, it just decides when the gun does damage. all it has to do with is how responsive the weapon is as you just said, and that is why they will never add an option, and why they should never add an option, because you would have players dealing damage at different rates in the same games, with the same guns. (Also, depending on how they did their network code to display damage to other players, it might not be possible for them to increase the tick rate, without having more host to squad member inconsistencies.)

7 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

if you remember what continuous weapons were like before the change, you'd know this to be 100% false.
Like I said earlier, fixing the tick rate at 3 per second (i.e. "three chunks of damage per second", not "three big numbers appear in a second while the health bar continuously drains") causes a noticeable difference in responsiveness of the weapon.

We disagree on what the problem with continous weapons is. I think what keeps them from endgame is the complete lack of status, you think its the tick rate, truth is almost all continous weapons suck when used in the simulacron and it has nothing to do with "when they apply the damage" / how many ticks per second. Its because they cant proc secondary stats for crap.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Gear-hart

[shut]

5 hours ago, Gear-hart said:

No.

Suit yourself. Just be aware that claiming you're a full-fledged member of the profession despite being in the early learning stages is typically seen as arrogant.

5 hours ago, Gear-hart said:

^that comes from my solution to fix continuous weapons. The one where I said they should also remove firerate mods.

So let me get this straight-- you suggested that the Quanta tick 16 times per second, and then complained about how overpowered that would be?

5 hours ago, Gear-hart said:

Want me to prove it? Sure. 

"a tick" is simple the display of damage, its literally when they call to apply and display damage in their code. Framerate or time is everything in a game because almost all code runs once per frame.

f you are running at 30FPS and have a tick rate of 3 per second, you will have a damage number pop up every 10 frames. If you have it running at 60 FPS then every 20 frames. Tick rate of 15 per second is every 2 at 30, and every 4 at 60.

If we call ticks - t and seconds s in the equation for ticks per second t / s which is most likely what they are using to determine when to display damage.

if ((Currentframe % framerate) == (t / s)) {

CallforObjectInMouseXMouseYToTakeDamage(); 
Calltodisplaydamage();

}

(the underlined section can be written in like 12 billion different ways)

inside of the if statement it could have framerate, or time, i dont know which but that is one of the denominators that could be modified. though modifying the numeratoris probably easier to do. 

This is the thing, firerate doesnt increase ticks persecond, and is therefore NOT firerate, its just a damage mod that acts as a overall damage DPS increase. which is BS.

There's been a miscommunication. I did not at any point say that fire rate affects ticks per second; I've stated multiple times that the "3 ticks per second" is very much constant.

I don't know what you're "proving" here. My post was about the specifics of how Status/sec works, but you didn't clarify anything at all (aside from "Status probably / should work like _____" from either a coding perspective or a gameplay perspective. 

5 hours ago, Gear-hart said:

My point is from an arbitrary stand point, if you drastically increase their overall DPS by increase status chance they need to lose something, why not firerate?

The truth is, i dont care what they lose, but if they lose something i would rather it be firerate then status. Especilaly because DE is so married to this status per second thing. When status should really be applied everytime the target takes damage, every tick, or whatever the hell you want to call it. (Even though its more like everytime they decide to display damage).

My point is that you don't need to remove their compatibility with fire rate. Not every buff has to be accompanied by a nerf, especially for a weapon class as all-around subpar as continuous weapons.

5 hours ago, Gear-hart said:

- they could and to great effect.(see above) (though yes this isnt a clean solution i was simply listing quick fixes for the sake of illustrating how many times they could swap out one number to fix a problem)

- no that is

- no im not. if you want proof look for where i talk about what ticks are above. 

tickrate means nothing, and is a tiny amount of code, it just decides when the gun does damage. all it has to do with is how responsive the weapon is as you just said, and that is why they will never add an option, and why they should never add an option, because you would have players dealing damage at different rates in the same games, with the same guns. (Also, depending on how they did their network code to display damage to other players, it might not be possible for them to increase the tick rate, without having more host to squad member inconsistencies.)

- They really, really don't. You don't think that fundamentally altering how time is calculated is a bit unnecessary for something as simple as a continuous weapon buff? You're damn right it's not a clean solution.

- Now that you clarified where denominators are coming in, I understand.

- The fact that you understand what a tick is, and can write an exceedingly simple skeleton code to simulate such a system... is proof that you're not oversimplifying the complexities of game coding? Your "proof" didn't even account for an unsteady framerate, let alone any other technical issues that can arise in a video game's code. You're being very naive if you think that's all there is to it, and it's very telling of your inexperience with what you claim to be a professional in.

- Who the hell said anything about adding options for how many ticks per second you do?

5 hours ago, Gear-hart said:

We disagree on what the problem with continous weapons is. I think what keeps them from endgame is the complete lack of status, you think its the tick rate, truth is almost all continous weapons suck when used in the simulacron and it has nothing to do with "when they apply the damage" / how many ticks per second. Its because they cant proc secondary stats for crap.

No, I totally agree that Status is borked on continuous weapons. Literally the main point of my first post in this thread.
I simply avoided talking about how it works and how it can be improved because I don't understand the nuances of how it currently works.

 

This is taking way too long for me to type and I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere with you, so I'm going to stop posting. Have a good day.

Edited February 17, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Gahrzerkire]

37 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Suit yourself. Just be aware that claiming you're a full-fledged member of the profession despite being in the early learning stages is typically seen as arrogant.

Never once did i say i was a professional or a full-fledged member of any profession, i stated that i was a programmer, which generally means you have a basic understanding of programming and its uses. I followed that up with, i am working toward a bachelors in game design, so i know how it is applied in video games. Again "working toward". Which is me saying that i dont know everything perfectly and am not always right, but i do know what i am talking about. 

41 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

So let me get this straight-- you suggested that the Quanta tick 16 times per second, and then complained about how overpowered that would be?

No. I said that making the quanta tick STATUS CHANCE 16 times a second would be overpowered if firerate mods were applied, and THEY ACTUALLY AFFECTED THE FIRERATE. (This is a situational case where i am talking about my solution to the issue which revolves around going to the old system making firerate effect ticks per second, and apply status either on every tick, or a set number of times per second and remove status chance all together.)

42 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

There's been a miscommunication. I did not at any point say that fire rate affects ticks per second; I've stated multiple times that the "3 ticks per second" is very much constant.

THIS RIGHT HERE IS WHAT YOU DONT GET. Firerate mods do not effect ticks of damage per second, only the amount of damage applied per tick. You know what damage mods do? They do that. Exactly. That. Hence why its stupid to have redundant mods that dont actually do anything. One of the big strengths of firerate mods is that they buff the speed at which you proc statuses (I.E. number per second)(This is a situational case where i am talking about my solution to the issue which revolves around going to the old system making firerate effect ticks per second, and apply status either on every tick, or a set number of times per second and remove status chance all together.)

47 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

My point is that you don't need to remove their compatibility with fire rate. Not every buff has to be accompanied by a nerf, especially for a weapon class as all-around subpar as continuous weapons.

I agree, but firerate mods that increase the damage per instance, and not the instances themselves, are not firerate mods. And I think that having a higher number of guaranteed status per second outweighs firerate very heavily, too the point where it would make most continous weapons endgame. 

49 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

- They really, really don't. You don't think that fundamentally altering how time is calculated is a bit unnecessary for something as simple as a continuous weapon buff? You're damn right it's not a clean solution.

- Now that you clarified where denominators are coming in, I understand.

- The fact that you understand what a tick is, and can write an exceedingly simple skeleton code to simulate such a system... is proof that you're not oversimplifying the complexities of game coding? Your "proof" didn't even account for an unsteady framerate, let alone any other technical issues that can arise in a video game's code. You're being very naive if you think that's all there is to it, and it's very telling of your inexperience with what you claim to be a professional in.

- Who the hell said anything about adding options for how many ticks per second you do?

- what did i say.

-good.

-it was proof that i had an understanding of how game coding worked, and a counter argument to all your ad hominem attacks. and of course i didnt account for unsteady frame rate, and other technical issues, because... its not my job to do their work for them, and your right i dont know all their problems, but if you want me to account for unstead framerate i can. There are many ways to do it, and its not that painful, and they are probubly already in place in the games code. you dont need to change ALL THE CODE, get small sections of it to function. And by the way, ticks, are 100% reliant on frame rate, the damage itself isnt, but the TICKS you see, those rely on frame rate, cause they are just a display, and the actual damage takes place before they show up on your screen, regardless of frame rate and all that S#&$.

Sorry i didnt take the time to write you code. I have other work to do.

55 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

You're being very naive if you think that's all there is to it, and it's very telling of your inexperience with what you claim to be a professional in.

Nice ad hominem again, though id like to say that ive covered this in almost every post since i started talking to you. I DO NOT CLAIM TO BE IN THE PROFESSION. I claim to be working toward going into it, and can promise you i have a better understanding then sizable chunk of the player base. 

57 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

I simply avoided talking about how it works and how it can be improved because I don't understand the nuances of how it currently works.

Yeah, and yet here you are.

Also its really easy to make things look super complicated and super difficult and go woe are they, and woe is me and all that crap. To cry fowl at "unsteady framerate" and "network lag" which yes are issues, but in the end, to someone in the business, with the understanding, who has been writing code for the game/games for the past 3 years, who has been taught to solve these problems, WHOSE JOB IT IS TO SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS, it is significantly easier for. 

I have several professors who worked at Digital Extremes, and they speak very highly of the company and are accomplished programmers. I can say without a doubt, fixing continuous weapons isn't an issue of how long it takes, Its whether or not someone on the team is going to do it.

[Gahrzerkire]

On 2/16/2017 at 1:46 AM, AdunSaveMe said:

That's exactly the same as a fire rate though. How it works now and what you suggest are the same; number of ticks over time.

Also no its not. 

Currently firerate increases the percentage chance of a status being proc'd per second, and sadly the equation works like this:

Quanta 10% status chance 

status / second = 10%

add shred

status / second = 13%

add vile excel 

status / second = 22%

So...

status chance = status chance + (status chance * 100 / firerate)

What i am saying is this.

status procs / second  = 4

in old terms 

status / second = 400% 

now i am saying the split chamber affects this multiplicative which it currently doesn't (we know this because if we put on split chamber, after putting on shred the status chance does not increase, and if we follow that with vile excel it still does not increase at a faster rate then provided by the above equation)

this means that you apply split chamber and your status chance becomes (rounding up to 100% multishot for simplicity)

status procs / second = 8

in old terms 

status / second = 800%

this is then affected multiplicatively by regular status mods so 120% extra status chance, in old terms results in

status / second = 1760% 

status procs / second = 18 (i rounded up again lets keep it consistent)

So. No. I am not talking the same thing at all. Because in my system firerate wouldnt increase status chance, instead multishot would like it does for every other weapon.

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

So this is what programmers do. They argue with strangers over the internet whether they are, in fact, programmers.

You learn something every day...

[o.0-]

The thing seems to be that the Programmers would need the green light to make such changes, so IMHO, this is more a Creative Design issue.

So I assume what would need to be done is simply provide the feedback that continuous fire weapons would benefit from changing how status is applied so that they can focus on being better Proc'ing weapons and have improved viability against other weapon options.

In other words, continuous fire weapons, like the Glaxion, would be improved by allowing them to apply more Status Effects as they fire, then the currently setup limits.