Add stamina to Conclave (exclusively)

[Phaxtolgia]

The major problem with conclave is the fact everyone bullet jumps, making aim a hell of a hassle than it needs to be. If Parkour 2.0 wasn't a thing, this gamemode would've been fine (not that I'm suggesting to revert to Parkour 1.0.)

The problem with Parkour 2.0 is that it's such a liberal mechanic for PvP, with nothing to punish you for being excessively mobile. If we take a look at Dark Souls or Black Ops 3, they all have stamina, to prevent players from becoming too mobile. Long story short, there needs to be stamina ONLY in Conclave that depletes when using the listed moves:

• Sprinting
• Double-Jumping
• Sliding (Maybe? Discussion required.)
• Rolling
• Bullet-Jump
• Bullet Time
• Wall Latch
• All melee attacks (except normal attacks, refer to wiki: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_2.0)(Maybe? Discussion required.)

The player's stamina would be fairly easy to drain, but after not performing said moves for 2-3 seconds, it also recharges quickly.

[Nazrethim]

I think just limiting Bullet jump and maaaaaaybe double jump would be enough, following this formula:

Stamina capacity: 100

Stamina recharge per second: 12

Stamina Recharge delay: 2s

Bulletjump cost: 20

Double jump cost: 10

Of course, I don't actually mind current mobility. Though I would like some consistency on melee stagger, I've had matches where I spent the whole time slicing people and no stagger whatsoever triggers, and then other matches I stagger people on a few hits.

[Stormdragon]

12 minutes ago, Phaxilion said:

The major problem with conclave is the fact everyone bullet jumps, making aim a hell of a hassle than it needs to be.

And then when mobility is decreased, those who play usually and can actually aim at other players while moving at "light speed" will develop another way to move to maximize the use of stamina while having easier shots at anyone who has to realize how this brand new mechanic that doesn't exist in pve works.

Imo, any mobility change should be done on both sides at the same time, so the knowledge obtained in pve, even if it's small, can be transferred to pvp, otherwise we get players who don't want to bother with learning something new to do some conclave (which is the current case with aiming at targets that aren't moving on a straight line to you, energy management, environment and situation awareness, use of mobility tools, etc.)

Edited February 17, 2017 by -----LegioN-----
Typos

[AlphaSierraMike]

It would be nice. But I very much doubt they would do anything that might changes the way the game "feels" compared to PvE, even if those features aren't compatible. I mean, the only thing they change with weapons is the damage, not touching any other stats beside using mods as a non committal band aid. Maybe as some convoluted excuse that they didn't touch the base weapon's feel. And even damage in general, at the moment is trying to conserve PvE elements, even though at the beginning of Conclave it was meant to be just plain damage and not IPS.

Sliding would definitely be included in stamina usage. From experience, I can abuse the fast initial acceleration of the slides for dodging as well as making the hitbox jitter. If it doesn't use stamina, then this would be the next go to maneuver.

[Nighttide77]

Ya know...I don't think it's that mobility is the issue, but how fast and unpredictable everyone moves. There are spaceship fighter games where people are moving in 3-dimensional space, but their movements are somewhat predictable and easier for an average person's eyes to follow. In Warframe, players are able to move with such dexterity that their meshes are pretty much skipping frames. Most computer screens and machines probably can't keep up, either.

What Conclave could probably benefit from is something like a slow-motion control. Just something that makes everything slower and easier to follow.

If we want a grounded FPS, then we need new maps that have much lower ceilings and much less stuff to round around and escape behind.

[Witchydragon]

38 minutes ago, Phaxilion said:

The major problem with conclave is the fact everyone bullet jumps, making aim a hell of a hassle than it needs to be.

Fragging is mostly hard because of high time to kill. This means that in order to secure a kill, one must accurately track targets for extended periods of time. TTK in this game is much higher, relatively, to games like Call of Duty and Titanfall. Time to kill can be significantly lowered so that players can kill with lower accuracy, but the tradeoff is that the skill ceiling is lowered, reacting to enemies becomes nearly impossible, automatic weapons become much more common because of how many more players you can kill with a single magazine, and shotguns become broken. 

Stamina, added to conclave exclusively, will only serve to make it more inaccessible. Aiming will be still be hard because good players will manage their stamina more effectively, and kill players who don't manage their stamina well because they are tied to the ground at 0 stamina. The actual TTK may decrease, but only against players who have poor stamina management. 

Stamina is not necessarily a bad thing, it will increase the skill ceiling in Conclave and change how the game is played, but the decision that prevents it from making it into the game is whether DE wants to restrict PvE players to make PvP more tactical, or let everyone enjoy near unlimited mobility.

[SevenLetterKWord]

1 hour ago, Phaxilion said:

The major problem with conclave is the fact everyone bullet jumps, making aim a hell of a hassle than it needs to be.

"I expected my opponents to be polite like the Grineer and stand still while I shoot them, but by golly, they keep moving around!
Why, th-they're making aiming a hassle for me! Please stop them."

The major problem with Conclave Feedback is the fact that every so often, someone with negligible experience in Conclave - very often someone still in Recruit Conditioning - suddenly acquires the impression that they've discovered the magical cure for all of Conclave's imaginary ills.
Invariably, this cure can be restated as: "I'm used to steamrolling the incompetent opposition of PvE AI. Make Conclave more like that."

 

[Nazrethim]

5 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

What Conclave could probably benefit from is something like a slow-motion control. Just something that makes everything slower and easier to follow.

Or we evolve IRL to have time-stopping focus capability ala MotN xD

5 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

If we want a grounded FPS, then we need new maps that have much lower ceilings and much less stuff to round around and escape behind.

As a melee player I would like this, most of the maps are very open and getting a hit, let alone a kill, on someone proves near impossible. Sure that encourages baiting players into the few secluded spaces, though as I mentioned, normalizing stagger would also solve the problem of getting a hit or two on someone and they bulletjump away multiple times without getting a stagger in.

[--.69-JP3GMD-69.nVbs.--]

I would highly disagree, as a fairly new conclave aficionado I must admit, that learning how to move fluidly and aim at those targets is a thing that makes me stick to this gamemode. Please do not make it another CoD, embrace the beauty of movement in Conclave!

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

2 hours ago, murdello said:

I would highly disagree, as a fairly new conclave aficionado I must admit, that learning how to move fluidly and aim at those targets is a thing that makes me stick to this gamemode. Please do not make it another CoD, embrace the beauty of movement in Conclave!

^this. These mechanics are what separates Conclave from so many other forms of PvP in other games.

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, putting stamina back into conclave (exclusively) would only serve to further widen the gap between Conclave and PvE. Thus making it more difficult to learn to play Conclave, leading to lower player retention.

[KirukaChan]

All these changes would do is make melee worthless. I avoid using melee in Conclave, but that doesn't mean I want it to never be used by anyone. I'd miss Indiana Jonesing people.

[Nighttide77]

22 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Or we evolve IRL to have time-stopping focus capability ala MotN xD

As a melee player I would like this, most of the maps are very open and getting a hit, let alone a kill, on someone proves near impossible. Sure that encourages baiting players into the few secluded spaces, though as I mentioned, normalizing stagger would also solve the problem of getting a hit or two on someone and they bulletjump away multiple times without getting a stagger in.

Ha, I thought about having a faster processing brain before.  At a certain point I realized that I used to use a lot of caffeine while playing Warframe and other games, and it's what helped fuel my brain while chasing people in Conclave.  Only problem with having a personal "bullet time" in your own brain is that if you have it, others will probably get it, too, and eventually the only way to compete is to have that super power.

And yah, I think having maps with more controlled layouts is important.  Unfortunately what seems to happen right now (since fly and gun is meta) is a player will just stick around areas where they have the greatest advantage, of which trying to fight in narrow halls or whatnot with melee only becomes a bait strategy, or simply a niche combat style that isn't as effective as just out-aim-flying someone else.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Nighttide77 said:

Ha, I thought about having a faster processing brain before.  At a certain point I realized that I used to use a lot of caffeine while playing Warframe and other games, and it's what helped fuel my brain while chasing people in Conclave.  Only problem with having a personal "bullet time" in your own brain is that if you have it, others will probably get it, too, and eventually the only way to compete is to have that super power.

Yeah. On the upside, that power comes very handy for pretty much any task. Thanks Warframe!

1 hour ago, Nighttide77 said:

And yah, I think having maps with more controlled layouts is important.  Unfortunately what seems to happen right now (since fly and gun is meta) is a player will just stick around areas where they have the greatest advantage, of which trying to fight in narrow halls or whatnot with melee only becomes a bait strategy, or simply a niche combat style that isn't as effective as just out-aim-flying someone else.

I make use of the fact that melee swings reveal the player. I just swing a lot to make my opponent think I'm fighting someone, when they arrive...

Other times I just try to out parkour someone to land hits. The problem is that Stagger only works half the time, or not at all. If Stagger (which is 2s duration and subject to anticipation) was a 100% chance on any melee hit (except for AoEs like Caucasyst goo, Radial Slams and Teltace spin radial) cutting wings would be a direct counter to the flygun meta. A single well landed aerial attack could leave the target exposed long enough for the kill, and make ambush tactics effective (as the opponent wouldn't be able to bulletjump into space as soon as you appear). It's  the reason I want Ash's teleport to have a stagger (sharing anticipation with melee stagger of course): in pve it opens enemies to finisher, so it's clearly a melee oriented ability, but in conclave outside of using a shotgun it's pointless as the opponent escapes instantly.

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

On 2/16/2017 at 9:15 PM, Phaxilion said:

The major problem with conclave is the fact everyone bullet jumps, making aim a hell of a hassle than it needs to be. If Parkour 2.0 wasn't a thing, this gamemode would've been fine (not that I'm suggesting to revert to Parkour 1.0.)

The problem with Parkour 2.0 is that it's such a liberal mechanic for PvP, with nothing to punish you for being excessively mobile. If we take a look at Dark Souls or Black Ops 3, they all have stamina, to prevent players from becoming too mobile. Long story short, there needs to be stamina ONLY in Conclave that depletes when using the listed moves:

• Sprinting
• Double-Jumping
• Sliding (Maybe? Discussion required.)
• Rolling
• Bullet-Jump
• Bullet Time
• Wall Latch
• All melee attacks (except normal attacks, refer to wiki: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_2.0)(Maybe? Discussion required.)

The player's stamina would be fairly easy to drain, but after not performing said moves for 2-3 seconds, it also recharges quickly.

I'm guessing you don't play too much conclave. 

In this game you have to practice. You cant expect to be good instantly just because you think you have a good gun. Sorry the world doesn't work that way and neither does this game. 

The top snipers of conclave got that way because they practiced and got their tail handed to them before they started really giving it back. I got my tail kicked for a month and a half before I started winning games and now I rarely lose games. 

The game doesn't need to be changed to suit people who don't want to work for their kills. 

The game doesn't need to be changed so people can get easier kills. Trust me, if you take away the speed, I promise people like me and other top players will massacre everyone because now they can't run from us. 

[(XBOX)Tylers Legend]

If it can be brought back to the game in the least damaging way.

Stamina can be a great way to teach new conclave players to make great use of their mobility.

Maybe, stamina can be rewarded if players use complexed nonduplicate chained movement.

Ex. If I roll then roll and roll again my stamina will continue to deplete until I let it recharge. If I roll then bullet-jump into a backflip into a slide attack to change direction, I get rewarded stamina. If I do that same combination I get little to no rewarded stamina. Maybe, attacking while performing a movement chain can grant stamina.

This improved form of stamina can help players learn to synergize their movement and prevent maneuver spam. Make sure stamina bar and its uses are noticeable

Edited February 18, 2017 by (XB1)Tylers Legend

[AreWeHuman]

On 2/17/2017 at 11:34 PM, Nighttide77 said:

Ha, I thought about having a faster processing brain before.  At a certain point I realized that I used to use a lot of caffeine while playing Warframe and other games, and it's what helped fuel my brain while chasing people in Conclave.  Only problem with having a personal "bullet time" in your own brain is that if you have it, others will probably get it, too, and eventually the only way to compete is to have that super power.

And yah, I think having maps with more controlled layouts is important.  Unfortunately what seems to happen right now (since fly and gun is meta) is a player will just stick around areas where they have the greatest advantage, of which trying to fight in narrow halls or whatnot with melee only becomes a bait strategy, or simply a niche combat style that isn't as effective as just out-aim-flying someone else.

Your brain already has bullet time processing speed. Your eyes don't have bullet time refresh rate.

[Nighttide77]

13 hours ago, AreWeHuman said:

Your brain already has bullet time processing speed. Your eyes don't have bullet time refresh rate.

Thanks for the compliment, but I think you are overestimating my brain.

[Heckzu]

16 hours ago, AreWeHuman said:

Your eyes don't have bullet time refresh rate.

Please don't tell me you're one of those "the human eyes can't see more than 30 FPS" guys.

BTW, why necro a thread just to make such a remark?