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Overall-Feedback [Balance, mechanics, modes etc)


Nerumii
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Almost everything i've said has been declassified as "missing mods". Something I didn't even begin to think about 'cause mods shouldn't have this much of an impact in PvP in my opinion, since as it is now it leads to players having a ridiculous advantage to others who don't have the mods and then again this destroys the whole purpose of "skill-based PvP".

 

 

Heyho fellow Tennos,

I've looked through quite a few feedback threads for conclave and started to look into it and try out myself to get a good picture of it. Now though I have to say, before adressing this many small details about conclave, fixing the major and consistent issues would be way more clever since Conclave is still a little baby trying to mature.

 

First off to introduce myself, I am a very competitive player, I played countless shooters and general other PvP games for 14 years. I learnt to know how weapons sympathize, how players tend to react in dozens of situations, what specific games or objects as well as modes have to offer and what not and I do think with my experience I can give some throughout feedback which could finally release the potential Warframe has in terms of PvP.

 

The ORO System
Pretty straight forward, the ORO system is nothing more than a "Kill-Confirmed" mark. it has no other purpose in the game. And in the 4v4 Team-Mode it's pretty decent as well, I don't think I have to explain anything for 4v4.

However adding it to Free-For-All / 1vAll is stupid and there are a lot of reasons for it.

  • Whenever an enemy picks up your ORO it counts as a Kill for him
  • Due to the not at all perfect netcode, very often both players in one duel die side by side, leaving two OROs on the floor as a little "thanks for doing nothing"-present to the next player walking by.
  • In PvP your positioning is always a very important aspect of the game. You literally always have to give up or mess up your positioning, just to pick up an ORO before an enemy picks up your ORO.
  • Especially with very long-distance weapons as snipers this is a ridiculous pain in the &#!.
  • The little extra of OROs flying your way after you successfully landed a kill is almost not helpful at all.
  • I already had a match where I had 39 Kills and could only pick up 23 OROs of my own kills, while someone else won the game with just 16 kills who picked up other people's OROs and therefor won with 25, even having a bad KD with more deaths than kills.
  • This system is a huge frustrate-factor and for some players would lead to broken mouses / keyboards as we know the internet.

 

Conclusion:

The ORO System is a decent "Kill-Confirmed" mechanic for a team-mode but it is an absolute failure for Free-For-Alls. It should base once and for all only on kills, that's what it stands for. Any "Kill-Confirmed" mechanic would destroy it and make it frustrating, since there is no possible way of adding such a mechanic without making the players having to lose their positioning or even get their kill stolen completely. 1vAll is a pure fest of clenching butt-cheeks, and that's already it.

 

Modes

Well, we have 4 modes as of right now. Team Annihilation and Lunaro being actual good ones in my personal opinion. Some people might like Cephalon Capture / Capture the Flag, I don't and therefor don't have much to say about it since i didn't really try it. 1vAll could be good if the ORO system wouldn't have been dragged over there as well. Sure, it was a try to change up things and not make this mode the same as it is in so many other games, but we have to admit, it just doesn't work here. It's just frustrating.

We could definitely need more modes. We don't have a lot of maps, therefor very less things to learn and almost no variety. It's either new modes which'd make conclave more interesting, or more maps. Either way, every single mode needs more maps anyways. And I especially look forward to some bigger maps with more players as well.

Why not have multiple team-size options? 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, 5v5, 6v6............

 

Weapons

Actually... Not such a great idea to talk about weapons this late into the thread. Since those are the villains of PvP being not fun at all for a lot of people. There are a few problems to it but the main problem is... Damage. Who would've thought?

Weapon Damage

An obscene amount of weapons deal damage without making any sense whatsoever. They have no reason to deal this much damage and are easy to use, or are hard to use and deal a laughable low amount of damage. Let's take a look at 4 of the best examples:

Soma Prime

  • Ridiculous high amount of bullets in the magazine with just as ridiculous high amount of damage. A good player with reasonable aim could probably kill 3-5 people without ever releasing their finger from the left mouse-button.
  • What has to be done to make it not as stupid as it is? Well, it deals even more damage each shot than weapons with only a few shots in their magazine. Either give Soma a smaller mag or nerf the damage.
  • There is a good reason for 50% of the players to play with Soma P in conclave and it's annoying to face such an enemy, having to jump around dodging for 6-15 seconds to finally be able to make a few shots, just to THEN jump around like a $!&$/§%ing idiot again, in which time the Soma P enemy already regenerated his whole shield.

Snipers

  • ..................Can we even talk about "damage" with "sniper" as the headline?
  • Someone completely missed the scheme of snipers.
  • It does not matter what you do, if you hit the forehead, eyes, nostrils, genitals, toes, you deal no reasonable damage at all.
  • Warframe is incredibly fast-pasted and has a lot of weapons which fit this scheme, but snipers just got moved the way out of this.
  • The characteristics of snipers are stealth kills, their trademark is "one-shot".
  • Snipers should always 1-shot on the head, that's what they are for and especially in warframe that's one of the only fitting criterias.
  • Headshots are incredibly hard in Warframe and Body-shots still are hard enough on enemies who know how to move and use their movement to their advantage.
  • Body-Shots should still give a high enough reward, right now we need 4-5 Body-Shots to kill a single enemy. During this time a Soma Prime already killed us 6 times.
  • This counts for Vulkar, Rubico and probably even Vectis, didn't yet try it in conclave.

Bows

  • Honestly, as of right now everyone who plays with a bow in conclave will learn to never play PvP again.
  • Hitting enemies with a bow is unbelievably hard if not even just RNG to some players. Yet there is no reward for hitting an enemy with a bow right now. It deals just the same amount of tickle-damage as snipers.

Hikou/Kunais

  • As I already noticed this is one of the fewer hard-to-balance things in Warframe.
  • I myself am yet not really sure whether their damage is reasonable or not, but I do realize that they often times get out of hand.
  • The headshot multiplier is too strong, headshots are with these kind of weapons pure luck, since the warframe movements are definitely not kunai-friendly. But as soon as a headshot hits, you can sure as hell say goodbye because those things deal even more damage than the current snipers.

Weapons to Ban

I don't even think I have to mention ANY of the weapons which have just NO place in PvP. They are a PvE only property and using it in PvP should've never ever been possible. And sorry for not going into this any further, but just mentioning one of these weapons should be enough to explain all the reasons why such weapons should be banned.

Telos Boltace     -     Surprised?

There are other weapons which come with just the same amount of strength and ridiculousness which has no place in PvP and every Warframe player who knows their weapons is able to name them in an instant.

 

Melee

Getting into melee range of someone should be a very bad thing to happen and there should be a reason to avoid this from happening. But with the current melee damage not even getting close to stroking the enemy, there is no reason to stay away from melee range.

Melee attacks should be way more punishing, they need more damage. But definitely no exaggeration, they need a buff but they should never be able to 1-shot. making them just as tickling strong as the current snipers would already work.

 

Overall Balance

Looking at the current weapon balance it looks like different people balanced different weapons just giving them the amount of damage they thought is appropriate without thinking about what effect it has in game.

Weapons should be inspected thoroughly before putting ANY damage values on them. firerates, flight speed, difficulty, magazine. everything has to be thought about and has to be compared with other weapons. Then you have to think about what a human can do. And you should never ever think about having players on 2 different skill-levels when balancing weapons to make it fair for the worse player. PvP is a measurement of skill, it's a challenge to yourself as a player, trying to see how good you are and improve yourself. When balancing weapons, always look into it as 2 players of the same exact skill level would face each other. The current damage values just don't show any of this, sadly.

 

HUD / Interface

Why would I bring the interface up here now? Well.... I already made a thread about the Crosshair. And I do know that there already are hundreds of requests on this. And in fact, Crosshairs are even more important as soon as it comes to PvP. Especially while sniping this micro-dot in white is a pain in the &#! and aiming gets so much harder with this crosshair. The colour as well the crosshair without modifications isn't optimal for PvP. But if we want to talk about the crosshair and what we want to change about it, we should do it on the already opened thread: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/760617-custom-crosshairs/

 

Why am I writing an essay on this?

Warframe PvP has a lot of potential. An incredible amount of potential. But it's not even used to 10% of it's fullest. Some arguments would be "yea that's because the warframe playerbase doesn't like PvP and Warframe is a PvE concentrated game." Welp. Sorry dear sir, this argument is not valid in any way. There are not many PvP players in Warframe because it doesn't have much to offer PvP-wise. Games which offer something will always get noticed sooner or later. They spread around. And Warframe's PvE concentration doesn't mean the PvP has to be bad. Especially when there are PvP modes available they should be good.

 

Maybe this gets some attention and re-thinking about the few basics on Conclave and hopefully we'll get a very fun and fair PvP mode, I'd look forward to it.

Other than that, feel free to discuss everything I said and maybe throw in your own ideas.

Edited by Nerumii
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15 hours ago, Nerumii said:

The ORO System

  • Especially with very long-distance weapons as snipers this is a ridiculous pain in the &#!.
  • The little extra of OROs flying your way after you successfully landed a kill is almost not helpful at all.
  • I already had a match where I had 39 Kills and could only pick up 23 OROs of my own kills, while someone else won the game with just 16 kills who picked up other people's OROs and therefor won with 25, even having a bad KD with more deaths than kills.
  • This system is a huge frustrate-factor and for some players would lead to broken mouses / keyboards as we know the internet.

Oro system exists as soft range regulation on weapons to force long range player such as snipers to expose themselves to harm by closing distance to claim oro. Conversely, it is a boon to players who aggressively get in the thick of things as they have greater opportunity to both claim their own oro and punish long range players for not entering the fray by stealing their oro as well.

15 hours ago, Nerumii said:

We could definitely need more modes. We don't have a lot of maps, therefor very less things to learn and almost no variety

More modes might be nice, but I this also splits up the playerbase more. This is why I suspect that variant modes are no longer available outside of events.

We currently have 12 maps in the DM/TDM pool + more in the CTF pool. I feel that it's a decent amount of variety.

15 hours ago, Nerumii said:

Soma Prime

  • Ridiculous high amount of bullets in the magazine with just as ridiculous high amount of damage. A good player with reasonable aim could probably kill 3-5 people without ever releasing their finger from the left mouse-button.

Soma prime is on the low end of DPS (18*15=270), has an inferior TTK (avg TTK ~0.9 seconds), and a spool up disadvantage compared to other auto rifles to counterbalance its large mag capacity.

Compare to say, a stradavar with DPS 300, TTK avg ~0.74 seconds, or a karak wraith with DPS 303.42, TTK avg ~ 0.66 seconds.

15 hours ago, Nerumii said:

Snipers

  • ..................Can we even talk about "damage" with "sniper" as the headline?

This isn't communicated well, but snipers are balanced for use with the lie in wait mod which grants +60% damage. Special note that rare mods are disabled in recruit conditioning mode. In the case of lie in wait, this is likely intentional because they don't want people sniping out new players in RC mode.

Spoiler

uRK7cl5.png

15 hours ago, Nerumii said:

Bows

  • Honestly, as of right now everyone who plays with a bow in conclave will learn to never play PvP again.
  • Hitting enemies with a bow is unbelievably hard if not even just RNG to some players. Yet there is no reward for hitting an enemy with a bow right now. It deals just the same amount of tickle-damage as snipers.

Bows are difficult to use, but tend to hit harder than snipers and are silent (do not mark you on radar). Paris can one shot squishier frames outright, most other bows are 2 hit kills. They also have some nice rare mods that you likely do not have yet such as soaring strike: +50% rof while in air and plan B: +20% rof on secondary weapons on bow hit.

15 hours ago, Nerumii said:

Weapons to Ban

I don't even think I have to mention ANY of the weapons which have just NO place in PvP. They are a PvE only property and using it in PvP should've never ever been possible. And sorry for not going into this any further, but just mentioning one of these weapons should be enough to explain all the reasons why such weapons should be banned.

Telos Boltace     -     Surprised?

Telos Boltace is nearly not seen at all outside of RC mode as players gain proficiency with mobility and can avoid the spin attack.

15 hours ago, Nerumii said:

Melee

Getting into melee range of someone should be a very bad thing to happen and there should be a reason to avoid this from happening. But with the current melee damage not even getting close to stroking the enemy, there is no reason to stay away from melee range.

Melee attacks should be way more punishing, they need more damage. But definitely no exaggeration, they need a buff but they should never be able to 1-shot. making them just as tickling strong as the current snipers would already work.

Melee is very powerful, but you need to equip it, channel it, and use the conclave stance mods + rare mods to get the full effect.

https://streamable.com/mnk8d

15 hours ago, Nerumii said:

Overall Balance

Looking at the current weapon balance it looks like different people balanced different weapons just giving them the amount of damage they thought is appropriate without thinking about what effect it has in game.

I disagree with this. Most weapons are balanced around the 0.7-0.8 TTK range with tradeoffs between weapons in the same class. 99% of weapons are viable.

A spreadsheet of all conclave weapon stats can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10YSwNYX8aV2P187XyNf3Gjs9HFf-V6BnMsSe2AXiplw/edit#gid=1307906295

15 hours ago, Nerumii said:

Why am I writing an essay on this?

Warframe PvP has a lot of potential. An incredible amount of potential. But it's not even used to 10% of it's fullest.

Agreed! It's a wonderful game mode! However, you need to get out of recruit conditioning to get the full experience of the game! Your profile indicates that you have fewer than 500 kills in the gamemode and are still in Recruit Conditioning mode, not regular matchmaking!

Especially if you come from an fps background, you are literally fighting against the greenest of players only, and RC mode is not representative of regular matchmaking.

You can toggle off RC mode in the conclave terminal OR you are automatically disqualified from it after you exceed rank 2 in the conclave syndicate.

iX21DYk.png

Edited by Pythadragon
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I actually am out of Recruit Conditioning since the beginning. I've never been in there and I'm not intending to play it.

However, reading that snipers are absolute useless nonsense until rng decides to give this mod is pure stupidity imo. That's again, not what PvP game modes are for. They are still for skill measurement and improvement, strong mods like this have no place in PvP modes. I do accept all the zoom variety mods and mods to give some little abilities or adjustments, but things like multishot / damage / crit, whatever shouldn't be accessable since they again, make it unfair. Others like "firerate after kill" are still on the cliff of jumping down into the deep hole of unfairness, but they are still okay and an acceptable if not even great reward for a kill.
 

Quote


Melee is very powerful. You need to equip it, channel it, and use the conclave stance mods + rare mods to get the full effect.

 

I disagree. If you seriously have to equip it and channel, before it gets useful in any way, then we can either just delete melees or have a melee only game mode. I really don't think that kind of using melee in PvP is clever in any sense.

Quote

 

Soma prime is on the low end of DPS (18*15=270), has an inferior TTK (avg TTK ~0.9 seconds), and a spool up disadvantage compared to other auto rifles to counterbalance its large mag capacity. Outside of recruit condition, it is not often used.

Compare to say, a stradavar with DPS 300, TTK avg ~0.74 seconds, or a karak wraith with DPS 303.42, TTK avg ~ 0.66 seconds.

 

I disagree to that one, too. The dps itself isn't that high, admitted. But the firerate and the mag are ridiculous and it melts down targets faster than anything if the aim is there. The unbelievably high mag just makes it an unfair enemy to face in my opinion.

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39 minutes ago, Pythadragon said:

Melee is very powerful. You need to equip it, channel it, and use the conclave stance mods + rare mods to get the full effect.

Well, honestly the only mods you absolutely require are Stances and Relentless Assault. Sword Alone is a nice buffer but not really mandatory. Martial Fury is only required for any weapon with attack speed below 1.0 and a trade-off bonus for weapons between 1.0 and 1.2 (it's actually somewhat counterproductive on 1.2 or above weapons in my experience)

11 minutes ago, Nerumii said:

I disagree. If you seriously have to equip it and channel, before it gets useful in any way, then we can either just delete melees or have a melee only game mode. I really don't think that kind of using melee in PvP is clever in any sense.

The only so far problems I have with melee are a bit of annoyance:

-Wall Attacks: These should have as much momentum as Bullet Jump IMO, or just be disabled for good, since they are both useless in pve and pvp by this point.

-Aerial Attacks: We really need these to allow for vertical directioning and add a second key to separate aerial from slam.

-Stagger: I find it very unreliable, sometimes I stagger everyone on hit, sometimes I spend the whole match not staggering anyone despite slashing throats left and right. One can assume they had Anticipation up, but most of the time I'm the only melee player around so there's little chance they would get a stagger from someone else.

Edited by Nazrethim
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1 hour ago, Nerumii said:

However adding it to Free-For-All / 1vAll is stupid and there are a lot of reasons for it

 

1 hour ago, Nerumii said:

Warframe PvP has a lot of potential. An incredible amount of potential. But it's not even used to 10%

These are the only parts agree with you in your...essay, on the other hand:

1. Most gun are already balanced, in fact I think its the most balanced part in PvP.

Soma Prime has an inferior TTK compared to most Spray weapons but its because it has high magazine size. It is a weapon favored to most first timers or not very experienced people in Conclave because its fairly easy to use but certainly not broken. Of course if you use little to no mobility, everything is gonna kill you in a split second.

2. Sniper's Lie in Wait mod is not dropped in RNG, you can aquire it once you reach Typhoon via Tenshin's syndicate in the relays. The reason is stated above.

3. Bows are more rewarding that maybe even Snipers; they are potentials 1 hitters especially the Daikyu with Spring-Loaded Broadhead and doesn't require mandatory aim like snipers in order to deal full damage but they are not hitscan weapon.

4. Hikou and Kunais deal heavy damage but its because they have travel time, making hitting fast moving targets a chore and they are less favorable to good conclave players. Again you may see them more frequent because of first timers.

5. Telos Boltace spin attack effects deals laughable damage unless you hit a player dead center and even then its not very rewarding. It can use as a potencial finisher though.

6. Melee damage is already powerful to most weapons considering channeling. If melee needs anything, it would be a way that they can defend more against a airborne target.

 

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5 hours ago, Nerumii said:

I actually am out of Recruit Conditioning since the beginning. I've never been in there and I'm not intending to play it.

However, reading that snipers are absolute useless nonsense until rng decides to give this mod is pure stupidity imo.

Well.... it's not RNG. You buy it from the conclave syndicate, and by the time you get out of RC you'll have plenty of rep to buy it. And while it may not be the best solution, if you are looking for those mods that are RNG, a lot of the players that play often have literally dozens of copies of every single pvp mod, and would be fine with tossing a bunch your way.

Edited by Phasedragon
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15 hours ago, Nerumii said:

Almost everything i've said has been declassified as "missing mods". Something I didn't even begin to think about 'cause mods shouldn't have this much of an impact in PvP in my opinion, since as it is now it leads to players having a ridiculous advantage to others who don't have the mods and then again this destroys the whole purpose of "skill-based PvP".

All rare mods are disabled in Recruit Conditioning, during which you can stockpile them for future use when you turn RC mode off.

Mods come from two places and do not overlap:

  1. End of missions rewards (RNG, only rares): All mods acquired this way are weapon specific and only a small handful are good enough to be possibly considered 'essential.' These are only relevant if you happen to use those weapons in the first place.
  2. Conclave syndicate (not RNG, all varieties): The most essential mods are available from an early syndicate rank, and rep gain is expedited through daily and weekly challenges. Completing all your weekly challenges gives an immediate +50k rep gain.
Edited by Pythadragon
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4 hours ago, Nerumii said:

First off to introduce myself, I am a very competitive player, I played countless shooters and general other PvP games for 14 years.

Yeah, and it looks like you've played Conclave for one weekend. In fact, you're still in Recruit Conditioning.
Conclave is very different from other PvP shooters.
Your experience in Mass Effect or Call of Duty or "other PvP games" (Handball? Bridge?) is irrelevant.

4 hours ago, Nerumii said:

The ORO System

Oh great, more of this.

Spoiler
On 2/6/2017 at 4:23 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

How bunched up can one's knickers possibly get over something as trivial as the Oro system?

On 2/4/2017 at 3:43 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

How difficult can it be to understand that securing Oro is an important aspect of gameplay?
Just touch the Oro to collect it. It's not like you have to solve a Sudoku puzzle.
Are you going to get it every time? No. Are you going to steal others' Oro sometimes? Yes.

On 2/6/2017 at 4:46 PM, SevenLetterKWord said:

If this frequently happens to you, learn to stop putting yourself in those situations.
If you frequently see this happening to others, capitalize on the opportunity and take the Oro.

In my experience, Oro theft only makes a difference in end-of-match placement for about a quarter or so of players, and it only one or two ranks when it does.

It's a different kind of strategy. Just because not what you're used to - straight killing - doesn't mean it's a bad system.
The incentives and rewards are not industry standard. Adjust to them.

 

Does the requirement to annihilate Oro disrupt your positioning?
Good. It should; that's the point.
The Oro mechanic stands as a test of mobility and a deterrent to camping.

4 hours ago, Nerumii said:
  • Due to the not at all perfect netcode, very often both players in one duel die side by side

Due to the netcode?
You mean due to the client-side hit detection and the finite speed of light?

4 hours ago, Nerumii said:

Soma Prime

  • Ridiculous high amount of bullets in the magazine with just as ridiculous high amount of damage. A good player with reasonable aim could probably kill 3-5 people without ever releasing their finger from the left mouse-button.
  • What has to be done to make it not as stupid as it is? Well, it deals even more damage each shot than weapons with only a few shots in their magazine. Either give Soma a smaller mag or nerf the damage.
  • There is a good reason for 50% of the players to play with Soma P in conclave and it's annoying to face such an enemy, having to jump around dodging for 6-15 seconds to finally be able to make a few shots, just to THEN jump around like a $!&$/§%ing idiot again, in which time the Soma P enemy already regenerated his whole shield.

Soma Prime: 18 damage * 15 rounds per second (after spooling up) = 270 DPS
MK1-Braton: 37 damage * 7.5 rounds per second = 277.5 DPS
Braton Prime: 29 damage * 9.58 rounds per second = 277.82 DPS
Braton: 32 damage * 8.75 rounds per second = 280 DPS

Are we done here?

4 hours ago, Nerumii said:

Snipers

"In fact, you're still in Recruit Conditioning."

4 hours ago, Nerumii said:
  • Hitting enemies with a bow is unbelievably hard if not even just RNG to some players. Yet there is no reward for hitting an enemy with a bow right now. It deals just the same amount of tickle-damage as snipers.

Bows two-shot.
How is that "tickle-damage"?
I've never heard of anyone dying from two tickles, or one tickle to the head.

4 hours ago, Nerumii said:

Weapons to Ban

I don't even think I have to mention ANY of the weapons which have just NO place in PvP. They are a PvE only property and using it in PvP should've never ever been possible. And sorry for not going into this any further, but just mentioning one of these weapons should be enough to explain all the reasons why such weapons should be banned.

Telos Boltace     -     Surprised?

There are other weapons which come with just the same amount of strength and ridiculousness which has no place in PvP and every Warframe player who knows their weapons is able to name them in an instant.

Yes, frankly, I am surprised that you've labeled the Telos Boltace as an imbalanced weapon, consider that its slide attack deals negligible damage and it is otherwise easy to avoid.

And what's with your hand-waved claims about these "other weapons"?
If there are such weapons that "every Warframe player who knows their weapons is able to name them in an instant", then why haven't you named them?
Either you're not a very knowledgeable player, or you're grossly exaggerating. Either way, your credibility is floundering.

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On 17/02/2017 at 6:15 PM, Nerumii said:

Soma Prime

  • Ridiculous high amount of bullets in the magazine with just as ridiculous high amount of damage. A good player with reasonable aim could probably kill 3-5 people without ever releasing their finger from the left mouse-button.
  • What has to be done to make it not as stupid as it is? Well, it deals even more damage each shot than weapons with only a few shots in their magazine. Either give Soma a smaller mag or nerf the damage.
  • There is a good reason for 50% of the players to play with Soma P in conclave and it's annoying to face such an enemy, having to jump around dodging for 6-15 seconds to finally be able to make a few shots, just to THEN jump around like a $!&$/§%ing idiot again, in which time the Soma P enemy already regenerated his whole shield.
3

I am using Soma Prime pretty much in lower PVP bracket - just where you play - recruit conditioning.

I am shredding other people mostly, but not because Soma P is OP, but cause they tend to stand still. If I catch myself standing still in an exchange with Braton, I am mostly shredded. I would suggest improving your movement first :)

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On 2/17/2017 at 0:15 PM, Nerumii said:

1. Almost everything i've said has been declassified as "missing mods". Something I didn't even begin to think about 'cause mods shouldn't have this much of an impact in PvP in my opinion, since as it is now it leads to players having a ridiculous advantage to others who don't have the mods and then again this destroys the whole purpose of "skill-based PvP".

2.First off to introduce myself, I am a very competitive player, I played countless shooters and general other PvP games for 14 years. I learnt to know how weapons sympathize, how players tend to react in dozens of situations, what specific games or objects as well as modes have to offer and what not and I do think with my experience I can give some throughout feedback which could finally release the potential Warframe has in terms of PvP.

 

3.The ORO System
Pretty straight forward, the ORO system is nothing more than a "Kill-Confirmed" mark. it has no other purpose in the game. And in the 4v4 Team-Mode it's pretty decent as well, I don't think I have to explain anything for 4v4.

However adding it to Free-For-All / 1vAll is stupid and there are a lot of reasons for it.

  • 3a Whenever an enemy picks up your ORO it counts as a Kill for him

  • 3b Due to the not at all perfect netcode, very often both players in one duel die side by side, leaving two OROs on the floor as a little "thanks for doing nothing"-present to the next player walking by.

  • 3c In PvP your positioning is always a very important aspect of the game. You literally always have to give up or mess up your positioning, just to pick up an ORO before an enemy picks up your ORO.

  • 3d Especially with very long-distance weapons as snipers this is a ridiculous pain in the &#!.

  • 3e The little extra of OROs flying your way after you successfully landed a kill is almost not helpful at all.

  • 3f I already had a match where I had 39 Kills and could only pick up 23 OROs of my own kills, while someone else won the game with just 16 kills who picked up other people's OROs and therefor won with 25, even having a bad KD with more deaths than kills.

  • 3g This system is a huge frustrate-factor and for some players would lead to broken mouses / keyboards as we know the internet.

 

3h Conclusion:

The ORO System is a decent "Kill-Confirmed" mechanic for a team-mode but it is an absolute failure for Free-For-Alls. It should base once and for all only on kills, that's what it stands for. Any "Kill-Confirmed" mechanic would destroy it and make it frustrating, since there is no possible way of adding such a mechanic without making the players having to lose their positioning or even get their kill stolen completely. 1vAll is a pure fest of clenching butt-cheeks, and that's already it.

 

4. Modes

Well, we have 4 modes as of right now. Team Annihilation and Lunaro being actual good ones in my personal opinion. Some people might like Cephalon Capture / Capture the Flag, I don't and therefor don't have much to say about it since i didn't really try it. 1vAll could be good if the ORO system wouldn't have been dragged over there as well. Sure, it was a try to change up things and not make this mode the same as it is in so many other games, but we have to admit, it just doesn't work here. It's just frustrating.

We could definitely need more modes. We don't have a lot of maps, therefor very less things to learn and almost no variety. It's either new modes which'd make conclave more interesting, or more maps. Either way, every single mode needs more maps anyways. And I especially look forward to some bigger maps with more players as well.

Why not have multiple team-size options? 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, 5v5, 6v6............

 

5. Weapons

Actually... Not such a great idea to talk about weapons this late into the thread. Since those are the villains of PvP being not fun at all for a lot of people. There are a few problems to it but the main problem is... Damage. Who would've thought?

5a Weapon Damage

An obscene amount of weapons deal damage without making any sense whatsoever. They have no reason to deal this much damage and are easy to use, or are hard to use and deal a laughable low amount of damage. Let's take a look at 4 of the best examples:

5b Soma Prime

  • Ridiculous high amount of bullets in the magazine with just as ridiculous high amount of damage. A good player with reasonable aim could probably kill 3-5 people without ever releasing their finger from the left mouse-button.

  • What has to be done to make it not as stupid as it is? Well, it deals even more damage each shot than weapons with only a few shots in their magazine. Either give Soma a smaller mag or nerf the damage.

  • There is a good reason for 50% of the players to play with Soma P in conclave and it's annoying to face such an enemy, having to jump around dodging for 6-15 seconds to finally be able to make a few shots, just to THEN jump around like a $!&$/§%ing idiot again, in which time the Soma P enemy already regenerated his whole shield.

5c Snipers

  • ..................Can we even talk about "damage" with "sniper" as the headline?

  • Someone completely missed the scheme of snipers.

  • It does not matter what you do, if you hit the forehead, eyes, nostrils, genitals, toes, you deal no reasonable damage at all.

  • Warframe is incredibly fast-pasted and has a lot of weapons which fit this scheme, but snipers just got moved the way out of this.

  • The characteristics of snipers are stealth kills, their trademark is "one-shot".

  • Snipers should always 1-shot on the head, that's what they are for and especially in warframe that's one of the only fitting criterias.

  • Headshots are incredibly hard in Warframe and Body-shots still are hard enough on enemies who know how to move and use their movement to their advantage.

  • Body-Shots should still give a high enough reward, right now we need 4-5 Body-Shots to kill a single enemy. During this time a Soma Prime already killed us 6 times.

  • This counts for Vulkar, Rubico and probably even Vectis, didn't yet try it in conclave.

5d Bows

  • Honestly, as of right now everyone who plays with a bow in conclave will learn to never play PvP again.

  • Hitting enemies with a bow is unbelievably hard if not even just RNG to some players. Yet there is no reward for hitting an enemy with a bow right now. It deals just the same amount of tickle-damage as snipers.

5e Hikou/Kunais

  • As I already noticed this is one of the fewer hard-to-balance things in Warframe.

  • I myself am yet not really sure whether their damage is reasonable or not, but I do realize that they often times get out of hand.

  • The headshot multiplier is too strong, headshots are with these kind of weapons pure luck, since the warframe movements are definitely not kunai-friendly. But as soon as a headshot hits, you can sure as hell say goodbye because those things deal even more damage than the current snipers.

6 Weapons to Ban

I don't even think I have to mention ANY of the weapons which have just NO place in PvP. They are a PvE only property and using it in PvP should've never ever been possible. And sorry for not going into this any further, but just mentioning one of these weapons should be enough to explain all the reasons why such weapons should be banned.

Telos Boltace     -     Surprised?

There are other weapons which come with just the same amount of strength and ridiculousness which has no place in PvP and every Warframe player who knows their weapons is able to name them in an instant.

 

7 Melee

Getting into melee range of someone should be a very bad thing to happen and there should be a reason to avoid this from happening. But with the current melee damage not even getting close to stroking the enemy, there is no reason to stay away from melee range.

Melee attacks should be way more punishing, they need more damage. But definitely no exaggeration, they need a buff but they should never be able to 1-shot. making them just as tickling strong as the current snipers would already work.

 

8 Overall Balance

Looking at the current weapon balance it looks like different people balanced different weapons just giving them the amount of damage they thought is appropriate without thinking about what effect it has in game.

Weapons should be inspected thoroughly before putting ANY damage values on them. firerates, flight speed, difficulty, magazine. everything has to be thought about and has to be compared with other weapons. Then you have to think about what a human can do. And you should never ever think about having players on 2 different skill-levels when balancing weapons to make it fair for the worse player. PvP is a measurement of skill, it's a challenge to yourself as a player, trying to see how good you are and improve yourself. When balancing weapons, always look into it as 2 players of the same exact skill level would face each other. The current damage values just don't show any of this, sadly.

 

9 HUD / Interface

Why would I bring the interface up here now? Well.... I already made a thread about the Crosshair. And I do know that there already are hundreds of requests on this. And in fact, Crosshairs are even more important as soon as it comes to PvP. Especially while sniping this micro-dot in white is a pain in the &#! and aiming gets so much harder with this crosshair. The colour as well the crosshair without modifications isn't optimal for PvP. But if we want to talk about the crosshair and what we want to change about it, we should do it on the already opened thread: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/760617-custom-crosshairs/

 

10 Why am I writing an essay on this?

Warframe PvP has a lot of potential. An incredible amount of potential. But it's not even used to 10% of it's fullest. Some arguments would be "yea that's because the warframe playerbase doesn't like PvP and Warframe is a PvE concentrated game." Welp. Sorry dear sir, this argument is not valid in any way. There are not many PvP players in Warframe because it doesn't have much to offer PvP-wise. Games which offer something will always get noticed sooner or later. They spread around. And Warframe's PvE concentration doesn't mean the PvP has to be bad. Especially when there are PvP modes available they should be good.

 

Maybe this gets some attention and re-thinking about the few basics on Conclave and hopefully we'll get a very fun and fair PvP mode, I'd look forward to it.

Other than that, feel free to discuss everything I said and maybe throw in your own ideas

1. I feel the same way about PvE. A player shouldn’t have to use any PvE mods to go 4 hours in a survival mission. Something I didn't even begin to think about 'cause mods shouldn't have this much of an impact in PvE in my opinion, since as it is now it leads to players having a ridiculous advantage to others who don't have the mods and then again this destroys the whole purpose of "casual PvE".

2. Then you can see why Conclave is more balanced now than it has ever been. Apart from a few abilities and frames’ EHP values that need tweaking.

3. So ? Its called Annihilation. Not deathmatch or slayer.

3a. It does not count as a kill. It counts as a point.      

3b. So ? Players do not have to die in situations like that, especially when they have the ability to bulletjump and parkour away.

3c. Oro will sometimes float towards you. This system prevents people from camping in one place for too long because they will have to eventually go out and get their oro.

3d. So ? A sniper rifle can kill up close just as well as it can from far away.

3e. Its very helpful, actually.

3f. He played optimally. The goal is to collect the most oro, not get the most kills.

3g. So ? They can play CtC if they don’t want to worry about oro.

3h. The mode is based off of collecting oro, not necessarily requiring a player to kill other players. This allows some players to outplay their opponents and win.

4. Oro works very fine here. Every time the PvP teams experiment with making new modes, we get dozens of threads in conclave feedback about people not wanting them just because they are PvP. Same reason for maps. The reason we cant have that many players in PvP is because it is currently PtP hosting with some Player Hosted Dedicated Servers.

5. Most weapons’ damage are fine right now.

5a. See 5.

5b. The soma prime is weak because of its long reload time and many other assault rifles outpace it in DPS even when the Soma is spooled up.

5c. The snipers are currently balanced around the mod “Lie in Wait”.

5d. The bows are the most rewarding weapons to use in conclave in my opinion. They reward a more disciplined playstyle that many players simply are not used to.

5e. They do not deal as much damage as the current snipers.

6. No. The telos boltace is fine.

7. Melee damage is actually fairly high. You can 1hit slam with most melee weapons.

8. I think they do.

9. This is a fair criticism. This also affects PvE in a negative way too.

10. The PvP in this game has always been top-notch to me. It combines many traits that other games have never even considered doing. It is also improved almost on a monthly basis, something many other developers do not do. It has a lot to offer PvP wise but it has a high Skill Floor and that turns many people off of the idea to trying PvP in the first place. Lowering the skill floor through balance changes may solve this but it may also scare off the players that have been playing it for years. The players that have consistently gone above and beyond making graphs and charts for the Devs at DE to look at so they can better understand and balance conclave. Those are the type of players you want to keep.

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