Consider creating a Cell-sized pseudo-clan-tier to even out distribution in clan tier capacities

[TheLexiConArtist]

The Hema research and now the nebulous suggestions for the 'Kingpin' system have brought to light a critical failing in Clan design.

 

We know that many players have personal or small clans. We cannot expect to have anything but a balance for the minimal capacity of a given tier when addressing investments required.

But what we see is DE not aiming to balance for the minimal size any more - particularly in one specific case. Those solo clans. Those pairs.

 

Clan Tiers:

Ghost             1-  10

Shadow        10-  30

Storm           30-100

Mountain    100-300

Moon         300-1000

 

What do most of these tiers have in common? The distribution between minimum and maximum capacity is approximately a factor of three (300% to 333%).

How does one of these tiers differ? Ghost clans have a factor of TEN between capacity boundaries.

 

So for all those personal Ghost clan warlords out there who have to contribute three times more than a minimal activity threshold of all higher tier clans:

 

Implement a "Cell" clan tier of 1-4 member capacity with appropriate investment balancing.

[peterc3]

Sorry but DE should in no way, shape or form cater to people who use clans in this way. Solo clans are an aberration, they are allowed but having made one, you shouldn't be surprised when DE makes content expecting an actual clan, not a glorified personal house.

[ReizoRyuu]

He didn't say cater to solo clans, he said bring the contribution of ghost clans in line with the relative ratio of other tiers, a 1-4 tier would be appropriate.

[Lawmonark]

Why do people keep bringing up this hema..... I know this thread is about something else, but it refers to it.

 

When you can run 20 waves and get 400 mutgen... I do not see an issues.

 

I farmed about 3.000 Mutgen in two days...solo. I researched all the items in my dojo before recruiting... nothing in this game is hard to get.

[(PSN)chibi_matatabi]

14 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Sorry but DE should in no way, shape or form cater to people who use clans in this way. Solo clans are an aberration, they are allowed but having made one, you shouldn't be surprised when DE makes content expecting an actual clan, not a glorified personal house.

this line of thinking I find quite comical, as not many really assist in anything unless they desire it, especially as there is no contribution log to prove a members claims of helpfulness

so what is an actual clan? and what is the purpose of them?

atm clans serve no purpose aside from 3

1. chatroom(s)

2. clan research that a minority contribute to

3. an alternative to maroos bazaar/conclave

if you aren't looking for those 3 then I'm sorry to say you have nothing but a glorified personal house, with a lot of houseguests (as the founder cannot be kicked without a month of inactivity)

[Lawmonark]

18 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Sorry but DE should in no way, shape or form cater to people who use clans in this way. Solo clans are an aberration, they are allowed but having made one, you shouldn't be surprised when DE makes content expecting an actual clan, not a glorified personal house.

i solo built a clan in about 1 month.  all research....every thing.  Look at my profile here.. then  in game. I started Oct-25. My clan in Dec... finished all research by Jan...

[MagPrime]

28 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Sorry but DE should in no way, shape or form cater to people who use clans in this way. Solo clans are an aberration, they are allowed but having made one, you shouldn't be surprised when DE makes content expecting an actual clan, not a glorified personal house.

This request simply creates anther tier specifically for people who are using Ghost clans as a "glorified personal house"

The point of this would be to make research costs for those people reasonable, removing a lot of the toxicity from the community over being required to do the farming for 9 other people.

Its not catering, it's expanding and improving an already existing system that would improve things in the community.

[Chipputer]

I could definitely get behind any system that normalizes the amount of contribution that each tier of clan has to make. Crying out loud, simply adding more tiers (that don't require you to make entire new halls for them) would be great. Just upgrade the capacity by 10 each time, then adjust the contribution costs to match it.

[TheLexiConArtist]

53 minutes ago, Krhymez said:

Why do people keep bringing up this hema..... I know this thread is about something else, but it refers to it.

When you can run 20 waves and get 400 mutgen... I do not see an issues.

I farmed about 3.000 Mutgen in two days...solo. I researched all the items in my dojo before recruiting... nothing in this game is hard to get.

^{[citation needed]}

I almost believed you up until you said solo. Meanwhile, in the real world, without boosters, you're getting roughly a sample per minute, depending on how the RNG feels. (source: many responses in various Hema discussions identifying this as a baseline average, plus my own ODS time)

 

Which means that, from a zeroed start, a minimal ghost clan contribution is 5000 minutes, or 83 hours, 20 minutes of farming.

Due to the disparity, however, the minimal contribution for other clan tiers is 5000/3 = 1666.67 minutes, or 27 hours, 46 minutes, 40 seconds of farming.

 

Don't you think that's a bit of an excessive difference?

 

Hema and Sample rate aside, it seems from the news we've gotten of the upcoming system that DE is going to keep balancing things above the baseline, and disproportionately affecting a lot of people with the most personal investment and burden of expectation (nobody to even potentially ease future workloads) in their Clans as a result. Hence, a Cell.

It's still affecting the soloers more than the baselines for higher tiers (working for 4 rather than 3) and leaves the Shadow tier in a bit of a questionable state (unless other tier capacities are rebalanced accordingly) of having a 2:1 investment ratio with a range of 5-10 members, but overall it would solve a lot of potential grief with future Clan additions.

[Lawmonark]

9 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

^{[citation needed]}

I almost believed you up until you said solo. Meanwhile, in the real world, without boosters, you're getting roughly a sample per minute, depending on how the RNG feels. (source: many responses in various Hema discussions identifying this as a baseline average, plus my own ODS time)

 

Which means that, from a zeroed start, a minimal ghost clan contribution is 5000 minutes, or 83 hours, 20 minutes of farming.

Due to the disparity, however, the minimal contribution for other clan tiers is 5000/3 = 1666.67 minutes, or 27 hours, 46 minutes, 40 seconds of farming.

 

Don't you think that's a bit of an excessive difference?

 

Hema and Sample rate aside, it seems from the news we've gotten of the upcoming system that DE is going to keep balancing things above the baseline, and disproportionately affecting a lot of people with the most personal investment and burden of expectation (nobody to even potentially ease future workloads) in their Clans as a result. Hence, a Cell.

It's still affecting the soloers more than the baselines for higher tiers (working for 4 rather than 3) and leaves the Shadow tier in a bit of a questionable state (unless other tier capacities are rebalanced accordingly) of having a 2:1 investment ratio with a range of 5-10 members, but overall it would solve a lot of potential grief with future Clan additions.

I Built my whole clan solo, ALL research, ALL rooms...everything. Solo.  some of the items i had help from one other person. they put up about 2k Mutgen that they had through playing... Then i farmed the rest.  

 I really dont care if you believe i did it solo.... BUT you can ask any of my members that i first recruited. They will tell you all was done when they joined. I did that for a reason... I want a dojo that had everything done for my members.

 

You get 400 Mutgen mass EVERY run. its not hard. When i said solo... i mean as is the only person in my clan... but with 3 others in the farm.

Also your numbers on "time" it takes are way off. People should just try to farm them...they will see how easy it is.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Krhymez

[TheLexiConArtist]

36 minutes ago, Krhymez said:

I Built my whole clan solo, ALL research, ALL rooms...everything. Solo.  some of the items i had help from one other person. they put up about 2k Mutgen that they had through playing... Then i farmed the rest.  

 I really dont care if you believe i did it solo.... BUT you can ask any of my members that i first recruited. They will tell you all was done when they joined. I did that for a reason... I want a dojo that had everything done for my members.

 

You get 400 Mutgen mass EVERY run. its not hard. When i said solo... i mean as is the only person in my clan... but with 3 others in the farm.

Also your numbers on "time" it takes are way off. People should just try to farm them...they will see how easy it is.

Oh what a fool I am! Look at those 400 beautiful Samples, how easy it is to fund the research! If only I had known and not spent hours of time in ODS where I get a paltry one per minute.

So when I say "farmed solo without boosters", you see, "farmed in a group using some top-percentile meta approach and everyone holding double boosters to attain a 6000+% drop rate increase" apparently.

 

Nobody questions whether you researched and built everything else alone, but you clearly have no actual clue what the standardised drop rate of Mutagen is.

"It's raining samples on [Derelict Defense]" indeed.

[Snib]

13 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

What do most of these tiers have in common? The distribution between minimum and maximum capacity is approximately a factor of three (300% to 333%).

How does one of these tiers differ? Ghost clans have a factor of TEN between capacity boundaries.

 

So for all those personal Ghost clan warlords out there who have to contribute three times more than a minimal activity threshold of all higher tier clans:

Your math is as bad as DE's because both of you assume 100% activity. That's not happening. In actual reality and not the one you live in Ghost clans have it much easier than Moon clans no matter how much you bold stuff.

Otherwise agreed with the rest, it's called clans, not solo players with an alias.

PS: And before you say to kick non-contributing members out: We don't even have the tools to see who contributes. Therefore it has to be factored in. But do we really need to have this discussion again?

Edited February 18, 2017 by Snib

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, Snib said:

Your math is as bad as DE's because both of you assume 100% activity. That's not happening. In actual reality and not the one you live in Ghost clans have it much easier than Moon clans.

Your reading comprehension must be similar, if you failed to observe that I am addressing minimal activity per clan tier as a baseline for contributions.

 

In short - if your Moon clan has but 30 active members, that's not on DE to balance for your specific circumstance when there's at least the potential solution in reducing down to a more appropriate tier. But there's no downsizing for a Ghost clan - that single person minimum is doing the work of 10, where the 301 members at which you must become Moon each only carry the weight of 3.33 potential Tenno.

To be at an equal burden, your inactive and for whatever reason un-pruneable membership must number twice that of your active playerbase: 100 active Moon clan members that if isolated could be two full tiers below the level at which they are operating.

Ergo, like I said, the only balance we can expect is for clan membership at minimum threshold - and as such, identifying that one tier is not proportionally burdened, find a way to bring that into line.

 

Please don't get me wrong, I don't suggest this one change fixes all the possible reasons and grievances clans might have going forward. But it does stop a significant number of players feeling unfairly treated, and does reduce the amount of "wait, if we do that, what about the effect it has on this" that developers have to consider working around.

[Snib]

57 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Your reading comprehension must be similar, if you failed to observe that I am addressing minimal activity per clan tier as a baseline for contributions.

It's not me with the comprehension issues. Member count != activity. And as I said, clans have no way to know who is actively contributing. Surely you know that.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand what you are proposing. What you suggest is basically a workaround for that problem by letting players opt-out of exactly that clan activity problem by creating their own solo/micro clan. I could have solo-funded hema research for such a clan with just the samples I had stocked up. But that's not a solution, that's just a cop-out, and disregards everything clans should be about. DE needs to fix that problem, not cement it further by basically giving up on clans in the way you suggest.

 

[Lawmonark]

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Oh what a fool I am! Look at those 400 beautiful Samples, how easy it is to fund the research! If only I had known and not spent hours of time in ODS where I get a paltry one per minute.

So when I say "farmed solo without boosters", you see, "farmed in a group using some top-percentile meta approach and everyone holding double boosters to attain a 6000+% drop rate increase" apparently.

 

Nobody questions whether you researched and built everything else alone, but you clearly have no actual clue what the standardised drop rate of Mutagen is.

"It's raining samples on [Derelict Defense]" indeed.

All i hear is crying from you. This was not done correctly.... yet you complain.

If it is possible to do.... why not do it that way? Instead you half-assed it and cry that you cant.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Krhymez

[TheLexiConArtist]

23 minutes ago, Snib said:

It's not me with the comprehension issues. Member count != activity. And as I said, clans have no way to know who is actively contributing. Surely you know that.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand what you are proposing. What you suggest is basically a workaround for that problem by letting players opt-out of exactly that clan activity problem by creating their own solo/micro clan. I could have solo-funded hema research for such a clan with just the samples I had stocked up. But that's not a solution, that's just a cop-out, and disregards everything clans should be about. DE needs to fix that problem, not cement it further by basically giving up on clans in the way you suggest.

Getting a bit of the old Texas Sharpshooter fallacy there, buddy. Starting with the conclusion and working backwards.

Objectively, DE can reasonably expect, and implement costs/burdens accordingly on clan activity at the minimum population level for its tier - it's up to the social engineering of the players themselves to help facilitate and motivate that, and to manage their membership/tier size.

Objectively, the ratio of capacity to cost modifiers stand at 10, 3, 3, 3 and 3.33.

Objectively, Ghost clans suffer more than clans of any other tier from operating at the minimum reasonably-expected level (and indeed, cannot function below this singular unit) when it comes to contributions.

 

Now, a "clan" of 3 feels unfinished to me subjectively, but our missions generally operate on the contribution of one to four Tenno, so making that the base size for a clan makes sense to me. One squad, one party - or in the terms used in the game, one Tenno Cell.

Personally, given the 1-4-8 squad structure, I'd give clans capacity in total accordance with that: 4 / 12 / 36 / 108 / 324 / 1072. They might not be nice round base-10 numbers, but they better reflect the Tenno operations procedure, and every single tier is properly uniform with tripled capacity for the sake of cost balancing. A soloer still puts in one extra, but that's a small price compared to triple the workload.

 

The alternative is raising the research cost modifiers for all non-Ghost clan tiers to that same factor of 10 for the sake of equality, and you're a brave man if you want to go telling people already burned on the Hema that they're going to be levied with thrice the cost from now onwards.

19 minutes ago, Krhymez said:

You are in the wrong mission, and doing it wrong. I will take a screen shot later of how its done.

14 hours ago, Krhymez said:

When you can run 20 waves and get 400 mutgen... I do not see an issues.

Last time I checked, Defense was the only Derelict mission with waves. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I'm not "doing it wrong" either - I'm approaching it in the manner a soloing player would farm for a resource. Alone, optimistically using a loot frame to enhance drops. With that, you get a sample per minute on Survivals... and apparently 6 in 20 waves of defense.

Arguably, if you're getting 400 without boosters, then you're using some exploitative tactics just by virtue of the ratio between the results. That's not what DE should be balancing for, and not what you use as a baseline for this sort of feedback. Design for the many, not for the few.

[Snib]

14 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Objectively, DE can reasonably expect, and implement costs/burdens accordingly on clan activity at the minimum population level for its tier - it's up to the social engineering of the players themselves to help facilitate and motivate that, and to manage their membership/tier size.

Nice one. As long as you realize that you just invalidated your own argument we're good I guess. We'll just reasonably expect you to manage your membership/tier size to get your clan to maximum capacity and your entire argument falls away.

[TheLexiConArtist]

16 minutes ago, Snib said:

Nice one. As long as you realize that you just invalidated your own argument we're good I guess. We'll just reasonably expect you to manage your membership/tier size to get your clan to maximum capacity and your entire argument falls away.

If you could not embarrass yourself and the discussion by resorting to strawmanning and "no u" that would be great.

You don't balance for the ideal (full to capacity), you balance with the worst case in mind (minimum capacity).

Higher tier clans have the option of downsizing, Ghost clans do not. Therefore, the worst case is catered for (ability to downsize) except in the instance where it is most burdensome by virtue of the contribution ratio (Ghost clans having to do the work of 10 people at minimal capacity). You'll almost certainly downsize before you pass an entire tier below the lower-boundary of your current one, which is what it takes to reach the contributory burden of those who do not have any such option.

 

Or do you presume that DE should implement an automatic removal of any clan members caught not contributing fairly or inactive, or automatically siphon away people's resources/force them into missions of the new system, either way taking the onus away from the players in those larger clans to manage themselves as a collective?

[Autongnosis]

I like the idea. Would also help with clans that are made out of close IRL friends like mine is, mine is Ghost because we're a lot of people - but it's much easier to be 2-4 friends playing than it is to be 9 :)

[Snib]

On 2/18/2017 at 1:48 PM, EDYinnit said:

If you could not embarrass yourself and the discussion by resorting to strawmanning and "no u" that would be great.

You don't balance for the ideal (full to capacity), you balance with the worst case in mind (minimum capacity).

Cute. Of course you don't do that any more than you balance content towards players without mods. But keep going, you're amusing.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Snib

[Renan.Ruivo]

Hey guys, this is a valid discussion with important points to be addressed. Please refrain from using personal comments in your posts to each other. Remember the guidelines:

• 2) QUALITY STANDARDS – Use our forums to talk to us and talk to each other in a constructive and respectful way that encourages interaction and thoughtful discussion.

[Liminal]

I agree, if the maximum number of players that can be playing in the same instance at the same time (raids aside since they are not standard gameplay) is 4, there's should be a "4 person clan" option.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Bump. And I didn't think about it, but @[DE]Rebecca now has the concise summary that is the thread title in her notifications. :v

Fingers crossed and much love, Reb.

[SergeiTheBeast]

I support this idea wholeheartedly.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Bumped for renewed relevance with the current Operation clan scoring paradigms.

DE, you have to realise you're screwing over a very significant portion of your playerbase by asking them to do essentially three times the workload.

Now you're telling all those lone Tenno or small cells that they have to be higher-tier players (compared to the average efforts required in larger clan tiers even at their lower threshold) to get the actual significant reward at all from an event in which they are participating, due to the one-mission requirement of clan scoring, which sets a very bad precedent.

Edited March 3, 2017 by EDYinnit