A few words on the Hema from someone who buys plat

[(PSN)Unlucky1307]

First I want to say I LOVE DE and support them almost fully, I've bought prime access more than once, as well as the accessories and I've also just bought platinum when it wasn't on sale too. The game is great and I love seeing DE do well because they make such a good game. I also have bought weapons I thought were cool with platinum to bypass farming them, such as the what stalker bundle. (Even bought Nidus because he's cool and reasonable to get but I didn't want to grind it out.)

All that being said though, the Hema was a MASSIVE error in the research cost. I REFUSED to buy it due to the poor handling of customer feedback, I also didn't want to deal with an inactive clan that would never research it, so made a clan with one friend and together we farmed it out. It was terrible and has done a pretty solid job of burning me (As well as my friend who I would send a lot of gifts to with platinum) out on the game to the point I'm not even sure if I'm going to buy the next prime access because I may leave the game for a few months aside from doing daily sorties.

Please, for the sake of anyone that wants to research the Hema in the future, lower the cost so you don't drive away paying customers as well as the people they enjoy playing with. It's bad business to do so, even if the initial profits seem beneficial it will lead to a player decline in the long run.

If the clans who have already researched it really want to cause that much of a fuss over it give them something special to make up for it. Maybe a special skin for the Hema or some sort of statue to put in their dojo. I personally don't care if I get anything for having researched it or not, I just don't want to see this sort of thing be viewed as acceptable when it's causing people to burn out on a massive scale and drive them off.

I sincerely hope the stance on lowering the research cost of the Hema is changed and it gets lowered enough to be reasonable for semi active clans and small clans (By small I mean 2-5 members in a ghost clan) to obtain without causing us to start disliking the game. And more importantly I REALLY hope that the free player experience is truly considered in the future, instead of it feeling like an attempt to grab a quick buck from players, this is thus far the only time I've felt that way about any of DE's releases and I hope my opinion gets changed in the future, or at the minimum this is the only time it happens.

[artemisfortune]

Customer feedback wasn't poor.

They wanted to keep the research high to make it something worth working for (even though it sucks, if anything the weapon should be buffed)

Don't hurt yourself trying to beat that dead horse.

[(PSN)Unlucky1307]

Just now, JSharpie said:

Customer feedback wasn't poor.

They wanted to keep the research high to make it something worth working for (even though it sucks, if anything the weapon should be buffed)

Don't hurt yourself trying to beat that dead horse.

I don't view it as a dead horse since as a console player who even started farming before the console release I JUST finished the research and currently have the thing building in my foundry. I understand high research, but the amount required for the Hema was just inconsiderately high. Even for it being such a powerful weapon.

[Burritochu]

I'm pretty sure they already said in a couple of dev streams they're not doing anything about the research req or the mutagen sample drop rate. No matter how terrible their decision was, it's here to stay. Hopefully they won't repeat this mistake and try to make clans more about the social aspect of Warframe than grinding and researching for more mastery.

[YUNoJump]

IIRC they said they were looking at changing how Mutagen products are received rather than changing the cost of the Hema, which would be a decent solution if they actually did it. Even without the Hema's existence, the fact that Mutagen Mass drops in smaller sets for no reason at all, and Mutagen Samples only drop from 2 places (one of which requires keys and the other has them as a rare drop), is just dumb, and glaringly out-of-date with the game's current mechanics.

I can understand having the Hema costs existing to create an actual challenge, but having that challenge manifest as "farm a whole bunch" is just detrimental to player experience, especially when the items in question are only rare because of dumb dated systems.

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

DE won't be lowering the cost of the Hema research. For one reason is the sake of the clans that either has already started or finished building the Hema. Wouldnt be fair if a clan wasted literally all of their mutagen finishing the Hema only to have reduced the cost of it later. Players would be highly upset. But don't worry. DE isn't going to do this again with new weapons. They said it in a devstream. But I still encourage clans to finish it even though the weapon isn't all that great. There will definitely be a weapon in the future that will require the Hema research

Edited February 23, 2017 by (XB1)Cash201293

[(PSN)Unlucky1307]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Cash201293 said:

DE won't be lowering the cost of the Hema research. For one reason is the sake of the clans that either has already started or finished building the Hema. Wouldnt be fair if a clan wasted literally all of their mutagen finishing the Hema only to have reduced the cost of it later. Players would be highly upset. But don't worry. DE isn't going to do this again with new weapons. They said it in a devstream. But I still encourage clans to finish it even though the weapon isn't all that great. There will definitely be a weapon in the future that will require the Hema research

A simple refund to the clan vault of any extra mutagens beyond what's required would do just fine for solving that, and for the people who whine just give them some sort of skin for the Hema like a golden/metallic one so they can show off that their clan actually researched it when it was hard.

15 minutes ago, Burritochu said:

I'm pretty sure they already said in a couple of dev streams they're not doing anything about the research req or the mutagen sample drop rate. No matter how terrible their decision was, it's here to stay. Hopefully they won't repeat this mistake and try to make clans more about the social aspect of Warframe than grinding and researching for more mastery.

They have said that but I sincerely hope they change their mind, especially if they're ever considering anything else in the bio lab requiring the Hema to build.

 

16 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

IIRC they said they were looking at changing how Mutagen products are received rather than changing the cost of the Hema, which would be a decent solution if they actually did it. Even without the Hema's existence, the fact that Mutagen Mass drops in smaller sets for no reason at all, and Mutagen Samples only drop from 2 places (one of which requires keys and the other has them as a rare drop), is just dumb, and glaringly out-of-date with the game's current mechanics.

I can understand having the Hema costs existing to create an actual challenge, but having that challenge manifest as "farm a whole bunch" is just detrimental to player experience, especially when the items in question are only rare because of dumb dated systems.

That would be an acceptable change, but yes the lack of drop locations combined with the low drop rate is a bit much. Especially considering the infested are my most killed faction by quite a large margin now and I STILL have gotten more detonite injectors and almost as many fieldron samples with the numbers of corpus and grineer killed being much lower than infested. (Though to be fair a bit of my infested kills have come from dark sectors.)

I hate that "Farm until you're burnt out" is considered a challenge. I would rather have something... Well actually challenging to do instead. Maybe a new infested boss, or just a super high scaled lephantis. (Or add something to his drop table used to research the hema, like the javlok capacitors that are used to build the javlok.) When someone who has played every day for most of the past month and loved most of it is burnt out after going for an item, that's a problem.

[Meneliki]

45 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

(even though it sucks, if anything the weapon should be buffed)

wow.. really? I found it to be insanely powerfull.

[artemisfortune]

Just now, Meneliki said:

wow.. really? I found it to be insanely powerfull.

Certainly not the worst, but the argument that the cost vs effectiveness is poor can be made, and I think it's a fair argument.

[ChuckMaverick]

46 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

They wanted to keep the research high to make it something worth working for

Do you have a source for that? I haven't seen or heard that said by DE at all.

29 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Cash201293 said:

DE won't be lowering the cost of the Hema research. For one reason is the sake of the clans that either has already started or finished building the Hema. Wouldnt be fair if a clan wasted literally all of their mutagen finishing the Hema only to have reduced the cost of it later. Players would be highly upset.

Apart from some comment apparently made to Steve on his first stream, which I didn't see and unfortunately he didn't archive, every comment I have seen from a clan warlord who has finished the research (myself included) is that we want the costs lowered for other players.

I don't even care about getting a refund.

[Tanner_Lindberg]

50 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

Customer feedback wasn't poor.

They wanted to keep the research high to make it something worth working for (even though it sucks, if anything the weapon should be buffed)

Don't hurt yourself trying to beat that dead horse.

if the weapon was good and ghost clans couldn't blow trough it in a day if dedicated this argument might work might also as a warlord with the hema done id fully support it being lowered as would all the other clans in my alliance with it kind of odd how de says what we think yet no one else is saying it...

Edited February 23, 2017 by MrFoxAos

[ArchPhaeton]

I paid the 5k samples the day it came out and was left with 5k in my inventory. This said I do recognize the cost was insanely high even for the intended "slap some life into your clans and boost sales" purpose. I don't mind if they lower it to 2,5k or 3k base and refund the rest, or even without refund. We are supposed to be here for fun, not to sacrifice our lives to some obscure Void god.

[Eldnacpeek]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Unlucky1307 said:

lower the cost so you don't drive away paying customers as well as the people they enjoy playing with

 

They won't. DE is done discussing the topic. The next thing clan related they're bringing up is the kingpin system, and with the Hema situation apparently being an attempt to make clans worth together and to be "great again", I know for a fact I'm not the only one who fears how potentially tedious the system might very well end up being.

[ChuckMaverick]

2 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

They won't. DE is done discussing the topic.

The last word I've seen or heard from DE on the Hema costs was from Steve on one of his Sunday streams when he said that they were "still discussing it in the office" (I'm probably paraphrasing that slightly).

That was after both times it has been mentioned on a Devstream, but if you have a later source that DE are "done discussing the topic" it would be handy if you could share it.

[Eldnacpeek]

17 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

The last word I've seen or heard from DE on the Hema costs was from Steve on one of his Sunday streams when he said that they were "still discussing it in the office" (I'm probably paraphrasing that slightly).

That was after both times it has been mentioned on a Devstream, but if you have a later source that DE are "done discussing the topic" it would be handy if you could share it.

 

I stopped keeping up with his streams, so I was completely unaware of that statement prior to your reply. Thanks for that.

Regardless, it's not reassuring. The last time they "discussed" it, it lead nowhere. Pessimism forbids me to believe they're going to do anything more than give us the Mutagen forecast for those in the Derelict district. I don't expect anything new.

[Kereler]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Cash201293 said:

DE won't be lowering the cost of the Hema research. For one reason is the sake of the clans that either has already started or finished building the Hema. Wouldnt be fair if a clan wasted literally all of their mutagen finishing the Hema only to have reduced the cost of it later. Players would be highly upset. But don't worry. DE isn't going to do this again with new weapons. They said it in a devstream. But I still encourage clans to finish it even though the weapon isn't all that great. There will definitely be a weapon in the future that will require the Hema research

Yes, let's not realize and fix our error and cater to the top 0.1% of the poor souls who farmed it because screw the rest of the community right? Right? Who gives a damn about the feelings of the minority when the majority is outraged over it? There are a multitude of solutions that are possible for the poor bastards who actually grinded for hours and days, buying boosters, running endless ODD and ODS. Just because you want to prioritize the select few doesn't mean you alienate the rest of the community, that's just a stupid business decision.

It's been realized that even paying players are driven away from the Hema purely because its patently ridiculous. I remember the theory that the Hema is basically, if not fixed, an invisible paywall weapon. Is it obtainable by regular grinding? Yes. So how is it a paywall? Well, the singular fact that it was calculated (I might be wrong here) that it would take nearly 100 hours for each member of a clan to farm enough mutagen samples to obtain this weapon.

That's 100 hours to get a singular weapon. That is just patently ridiculous in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Chipputer]

3 minutes ago, Kereler said:

100 hours to get a singular weapon

You're acting like you only get materials for one weapon at a time.

The only issue with Hema's cost is that Mutagen Samples need their drop chance tweaked. Almost every weapon you make you've gathered at least half of the materials for in the process of making other weapons. Aside from Nitain and Argon you rarely need to focus farm any specific resource that isn't marked directly as, "rare," when you're making equipment. The Hema is no exception, barring the bad Sample RNG.

EDIT: But I mean, what do I expect from the, "mathematicians," in the Warframe community? They calculated the volume of Vacuum to make the nerf seem worse than it was just so the numbers would look bigger. Of course they'd calculate the Hema time costs this way. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Chipputer

[Kereler]

2 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

You're acting like you only get materials for one weapon at a time.

The only issue with Hema's cost is that Mutagen Samples need their drop chance tweaked. Almost every weapon you make you've gathered at least half of the materials for in the process of making other weapons. Aside from Nitain and Argon you rarely need to focus farm any specific resource that isn't marked directly as, "rare," when you're making equipment. The Hema is no exception, barring the bad Sample RNG.

I don't know about you, but I deposited whatever samples I had this December into the vault. In the ensuing three months, I have obtained exactly 86. This is from me playing for hours a day, running derelict missions (they are my main source of plat aside from relics) and doing other housekeeping. Main sources of samples? Akkad and OD missions.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Kereler

[Liminal]

9 hours ago, (Xbox One)Cash201293 said:

But don't worry. DE isn't going to do this again with new weapons. They said it in a devstream. 

Sadly, I simply cannot believe them. They also said they would never base resource requirements around loot abilities, and no sane person would ever consider 500 samples to be a reasonable cost without meta farming frames.

They also said "no more prime guns that require prime guns to craft" after AkBronco Prime, yet we got AkLex Prime.

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

It's literally easier to build a ghost clan from scratch then to build the hema in a moon clan . Just have your current member join the ghost donate towards the hema kick them out & repeat . Then have everyone go buy the blue print .

[Ailissa]

DE - we want to reduce the grind.

 

What that actually means is they want to reduce the amassed time people grind by putting in things like the Hema which will cause some people to get burned out or just not bother with it which in turn will cut down the accumulated time of people grinding. 

 

 

[k05h]

10 hours ago, (Xbox One)Cash201293 said:

DE won't be lowering the cost of the Hema research. For one reason is the sake of the clans that either has already started or finished building the Hema. Wouldnt be fair if a clan wasted literally all of their mutagen finishing the Hema only to have reduced the cost of it later. Players would be highly upset.

rofl ... this was the most satirical thing they ever said.

If you continue this thought every nerf they ever did should never been done. They nerf weapons and frames all the time. The nerf riven disposition whenever they like and they even change ducat values for rare items whenever they like. Devaluating player time is part of the game. Otherwise there would be no incentive to buy new stuff. 

Therefore this whole argument of "devaluating" or "not honoring" players time invested is absurd.

I researched the Hema for my clan and I would not feel bad if DE lowered Hema research cost to a reasonable amount. I dont want new players to be scarred away. New players should be able to build their own clan and start the research with 50 hours of boring ODD farming.

Edited February 23, 2017 by k05h

[(PSN)chibi_matatabi]

9 hours ago, Chipputer said:

You're acting like you only get materials for one weapon at a time.

The only issue with Hema's cost is that Mutagen Samples need their drop chance tweaked. Almost every weapon you make you've gathered at least half of the materials for in the process of making other weapons. Aside from Nitain and Argon you rarely need to focus farm any specific resource that isn't marked directly as, "rare," when you're making equipment. The Hema is no exception, barring the bad Sample RNG.

EDIT: But I mean, what do I expect from the, "mathematicians," in the Warframe community? They calculated the volume of Vacuum to make the nerf seem worse than it was just so the numbers would look bigger. Of course they'd calculate the Hema time costs this way. 

apologies, not everyone buys plat on a regular basis, or forks over $60+ every 3 months for a new suit and shiney bits

ironically, 'the only issue' is what people are complaining about, there is even a megathread about it...

so please, read the megathread rather than ranting on threads only related by straws

[TaylorsContraction]

I'll chime in as a shadow clan that's completed the research.  I do not care if they lower the cost,  in fact I prefer they did for future clans.  Nor do I need any compensation should that happen.

[k05h]

5 hours ago, The_Doc said:

Sadly, I simply cannot believe them. They also said they would never base resource requirements around loot abilities, and no sane person would ever consider 500 samples to be a reasonable cost without meta farming frames.

And when I look through my excess resources I could easily imagine a weapon research (ghost clan) that needs 5000 neural sensors or 7500 orokin cells or 1000 nitain. Perfectly reasonable if you have a capped out clan with vets. I am afraid of my own thoughts because DE could think the same.