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Un-nerf Blessing's Range :L


(PSN)UltraKardas
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Was doing the Sorties today on PS4. The second mission was a level 80 defense mission in the kuva fortress. Normally no big deal right? Besides the annoying unbreakable traps/turrets Well... We get in and we have to protect a tenno operative. Alright... Great. The problem is he haphazardly runs around the damn place and always manages to walk right in the middle of a trap where nobody can safely get to him (Save like the immortal warframes) or in the middle of fighting just vanishes in the maps many corridors. This normally wouldn't have bothered me as I can easily switch to Nyx prime, Valkyr, Wukong... etc. Now you are thinking something like: "Hey this is totally unrelated. What's the big deal? Cut to the chase!" So I was running with some new friends of mine that needed a little help. tried once with an EV Trinity and a Frost. The defense target wandered off to who know's wear at the end and was gunned down while we tried to find him. Then I switched over to a duration Trinity to help with some damage reduction and the only way to actively keep the target alive was to follow right behind and keep blessing up at all times.... Which you can be sure two newish players absolutely loved babysitting an npc that constantly is just running head first into traps out of safety into enemies to just rip him to shreds. Extremely frustrating when they brought frames like frost and Inaros. (They don't have immortal frames yet. 

 

So Can you unnerf Trinities Range? You can blame it on a bad mission type based around AI but enough is enough. Nerfing Trinities range just makes EV Trinity the only real option... and as much as over shields are great and all... I don't see a point in making healing ( A completely supportive role. Where you are healing not because it's fun. cause it's kinda boring watching everything's health) even more bothersome. 

 

How to fix this. Couple Options. Well of Life. Make Well of Life cast-able on teammates or Targets like the Tenno operative and let Blessing hit that target always regardless. Let Well of Life be similar to snowglobe where it's a freely placeable object that I can just cover the map with so everyone gets healed... Or the simplest thing... Giving Blessing it's range back... I'm really tired of being a babysitter when everyone else get's to be a space ninja. 

Edited by (PS4)UltraKardas
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It's a 50 meter range, and if your team is not within that range in a non-raid setting, I think you need to talk to your team about sticking closer together. I run raids almost every day, where the maps are far larger than 50m and we manage it. No reason you shouldn't be able to.

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The problem is that Trinity is still the god of heal, no matter the mission, if a team wants a heal, it will be trinity, neither Oberon, Nezha or Equinox can surpass Trinity on this ground. It's sad the skill recquire to max out the efficiency of

For your problem, it's this time where you should stop playing with pick ups & take ppl who prepare & fight as a team.

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17 hours ago, Soketsu said:

The problem is that Trinity is still the god of heal, no matter the mission, if a team wants a heal, it will be trinity, neither Oberon, Nezha or Equinox can surpass Trinity on this ground. It's sad the skill recquire to max out the efficiency of

For your problem, it's this time where you should stop playing with pick ups & take ppl who prepare & fight as a team.

I would have loved too. But these people were friends of mine who were new to the game. The other problem being AI that ran into the Kuva defenses indestructible traps. 

There was no way to protect the operative and help my friends out. With A Duration build trinity just isn't viable anymore and making EV Trin the only viable thing is stupid.  They went as Frost and Inaros so while they worked together to keep themselves safe and alive, there's no command that lets you have the tenno operative people stay still. 

So they could either: A get out of the safety bubble and die, or Stay in the safety bubble and let the operative die. 

I'd be more then happy for equinox, Oberon, and other frames being buffed in line with Trinity. Like making Oberon's renewal being able to be active all the time to constantly heal (It can't be activated if Oberon is at full health. Needs to be changed) Give Equinox overshield or damage reduction on mend, and let oberon increase armor or something. Hell... Make Limbo's cataclysm heal. At least you could have like a visualization of the actual range and can place it so people know where the healing range is. 

20 hours ago, Mk_1 said:

And you're talking like Blessing is a LoS ability.. And the Kuva Fortress Defence map is tiny.. I don't get it..

It's really not that hard. The place has three floors and the AI Target ran off down a hole somewhere where nobody knew where he was and got himself killed. Meanwhile everyone else was on the middle floor away from the traps (The gas traps, elec traps, flame traps, turrets etc.) Go in a kava defense and just throw out any kind of specter. See how long it lasts with all the dif traps. If it's a sanguine eximus, it might last a few waves. Anything else though? Dead before you know it. 

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9 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I would have loved too. But these people were friends of mine who were new to the game. The other problem being AI that ran into the Kuva defenses indestructible traps. 

There was no way to protect the operative and help my friends out. With A Duration build trinity just isn't viable anymore and making EV Trin the only viable thing is stupid.  They went as Frost and Inaros so while they worked together to keep themselves safe and alive, there's no command that lets you have the tenno operative people stay still. 

So they could either: A get out of the safety bubble and die, or Stay in the safety bubble and let the operative die. 

I'd be more then happy for equinox, Oberon, and other frames being buffed in line with Trinity. Like making Oberon's renewal being able to be active all the time to constantly heal (It can't be activated if Oberon is at full health. Needs to be changed) Give Equinox overshield or damage reduction on mend, and let oberon increase armor or something. Hell... Make Limbo's cataclysm heal. At least you could have like a visualization of the actual range and can place it so people know where the healing range is. 

It's really not that hard. The place has three floors and the AI Target ran off down a hole somewhere where nobody knew where he was and got himself killed. Meanwhile everyone else was on the middle floor away from the traps (The gas traps, elec traps, flame traps, turrets etc.) Go in a kava defense and just throw out any kind of specter. See how long it lasts with all the dif traps. If it's a sanguine eximus, it might last a few waves. Anything else though? Dead before you know it. 

ah ok, yes might be hard in that case.

perhaps with the last augment for equinox, but for oberon, I think a buff it's the only way in order to be a solid alternative option instead of trinity

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On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 2:27 AM, Ragingwasabi said:

trins only job is to follow her team and support them. 50m is massive

It's the responsibility of the team to stay near Trin, if you want the benefits of what she can do. She (and her player) don't have a mind-reading ability to anticipate a teammate's sudden desire to YOLO across the map into the nether regions of the tileset.

50m isn't massive. It's adequate...IF...people pay attention to teammates' locations and communicate to move as a group.

Personally, I'd like to see this reverted. Since the changes, I'm a much more curmudgeonly Trinity. In PuGs, it's my way or faceplant the highway. I don't try and keep up with the seemingly random perambulations of PuGs. I do try to keep an eye on who's in range, but that's as far as it goes. Things are different in dedicated groups, of course.

Edited by Sloan441
forgot a rather critical word
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I don't think that Trinity needs her ult's range un-nerfed, considering she is about the broken thing in game.  Furthermore, you are supposed to keep track of the NPC,  it is rather easy too, just mark them.  

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I would have loved too. But these people were friends of mine who were new to the game. The other problem being AI that ran into the Kuva defenses indestructible traps. 

There was no way to protect the operative and help my friends out. With A Duration build trinity just isn't viable anymore and making EV Trin the only viable thing is stupid.  They went as Frost and Inaros so while they worked together to keep themselves safe and alive, there's no command that lets you have the tenno operative people stay still. 

So they could either: A get out of the safety bubble and die, or Stay in the safety bubble and let the operative die. 

I'd be more then happy for equinox, Oberon, and other frames being buffed in line with Trinity. Like making Oberon's renewal being able to be active all the time to constantly heal (It can't be activated if Oberon is at full health. Needs to be changed) Give Equinox overshield or damage reduction on mend, and let oberon increase armor or something. Hell... Make Limbo's cataclysm heal. At least you could have like a visualization of the actual range and can place it so people know where the healing range is. 

  1. How are your friends new if they can play sorties?
  2. If your friends are new then tell them to stay within a bullet jump or two's range of you, tell them to mark you if you have to (I think you can do that).  If they don't then let them get downed and maybe die, they'll learn real quick.
  3. There is no decision to make, the objective comes first, period.
  4. You'll never be able to bring any frame within a stone's throw of Trinity in terms of healing and such.  She has two healing abilities, one of which fully regens health and shields, and makes allies invulnerable.  She can also easily and efficiently regen energy to fuel her Blessing.  You cannot buff Oberon's healing enough to even approach that unless you allow him to turn god mode on for his allies.
  5. The problem is the idiotic AI and teammates who can't stick together.
  6. 50m is massive.
3 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Limbo was made for this haphazard mission tileset.

I'm fairly certain that the Rift doesn't protect against environmental damage.  If I recall correctly, I ran it as Limbo a month or so back, when this was also a sortie, thinking that exact same idea, only to have the NPC take a nap in the gas chamber, and us having to rez him every 20 secs, often dying in the process.

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5 hours ago, Insizer said:

I don't think that Trinity needs her ult's range un-nerfed, considering she is about the broken thing in game.  Furthermore, you are supposed to keep track of the NPC,  it is rather easy too, just mark them.  

  1. How are your friends new if they can play sorties?
  2. If your friends are new then tell them to stay within a bullet jump or two's range of you, tell them to mark you if you have to (I think you can do that).  If they don't then let them get downed and maybe die, they'll learn real quick.
  3. There is no decision to make, the objective comes first, period.
  4. You'll never be able to bring any frame within a stone's throw of Trinity in terms of healing and such.  She has two healing abilities, one of which fully regens health and shields, and makes allies invulnerable.  She can also easily and efficiently regen energy to fuel her Blessing.  You cannot buff Oberon's healing enough to even approach that unless you allow him to turn god mode on for his allies.
  5. The problem is the idiotic AI and teammates who can't stick together.
  6. 50m is massive.

I'm fairly certain that the Rift doesn't protect against environmental damage.  If I recall correctly, I ran it as Limbo a month or so back, when this was also a sortie, thinking that exact same idea, only to have the NPC take a nap in the gas chamber, and us having to rez him every 20 secs, often dying in the process.

 

#1 Only takes like Mastery Rank 5 maybe 6 to do sorties. Pretty easy. 

#2 They were close to me. The problem was that with that Kuva defense was the safe spot we were in, the Npc wasn't. He was busy daintily running through gas clouds, frolicking through flamethrowers or jumping down holes in the map to go give a friendly hello to the grineer squads. There is no "Hold Position" Or "Don't go into the death traps that kill you" Option for NPCS like that. 

#3 And that said objective ran numerous times out of safety for no real reason. Out of my range and got lost somewhere. As fun as it would be for me to go latch on the NPC's back while he goes spelunking 

#4 And? That doesn't mean anything. Just cause Trinity is the only working healing frame doesn't justify anything. Well of Life is terrible. You could make it better by tweaking it and allowing it to be a free placed object like a snowglobe. It's just kinda "Meh" Currently. Blessing doesn't make allies invulnerable. It used to, however. Just adds damage reduction for however long your duration is. Since most people only use EV Trinity... You get about maybe 2 to 3 seconds of damage reduction. Oberon's reckoning, and renewal could easily be buffed to make him an alternative to Trinity. It won't happen, But It would be easy. 

#5 Mostly Ai. My teammates and I stuck together. However I shouldn't have to play a healing warframe and have it be chore to heal anything period. If something like an NPC is out of my range, or high priority I should be able to cast well of life on upto two targets that get healed regardless of range. Even if they jumped down a hole of the corner of the map where it would kill anyone. 

#6 Not big enough when it comes to AI protection targets. 

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I can't get behind your reasoning for wanting to boost Trinity's healing Range.

Kuva Fortress Defense is covered by her 50m radius sphere  (If Trinity is in the center a teammate can be 50m away in one direction and another 50m in opposite direction ... Total of 100m for teammates to be away from one-another) As long as Trinity is centrally placed on Kuva Defense Map blessing is covering the whole playable area.

 

If purposely carrying players that need a taxi to Kuva Fortress defense: Vazarin New Moon and a High-durability frame seems like a solution.

Vazarin New Moon being utilized along with Quick-Thinking w/Flow and Energy restores allows most of the frames in this game to run through the Kuva Fortress Defense traps and perform revives.

Even Limbo's Rift Walk does not save him from Fire or Gas traps in Kiva Fortress but with Quick-Thinking: I can spam energy Restores to stay alive while running through those hazards areas.

Frames with more Armor and equally large Energy pools male that even easier...Aside from the lack of speed.

Trinity wouldn't be my 1st choice because of Link's dependency on alive enemies for DR to supplement Blessings' DR. (Since they nerfed 99% DR Blessing...)

You said you would have normally been Nyx, WuKong, etc.. and I feel you should have.

Your Frost friend could have cast Snowglobe every 5secs and maintained a safety area for him and Inaros near gun turret that he could freeze. (Snowglobe would have been invincible if cast frequently to utilize Invulnerability period added to next cast's health)

-Then you easily solo kill/revive enemies/VIP outside of the Snowglobe

Edited by (PS4)MrNishi
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2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

 

#1 Only takes like Mastery Rank 5 maybe 6 to do sorties. Pretty easy. 

#2 They were close to me. The problem was that with that Kuva defense was the safe spot we were in, the Npc wasn't. He was busy daintily running through gas clouds, frolicking through flamethrowers or jumping down holes in the map to go give a friendly hello to the grineer squads. There is no "Hold Position" Or "Don't go into the death traps that kill you" Option for NPCS like that. 

#3 And that said objective ran numerous times out of safety for no real reason. Out of my range and got lost somewhere. As fun as it would be for me to go latch on the NPC's back while he goes spelunking 

#4 And? That doesn't mean anything. Just cause Trinity is the only working healing frame doesn't justify anything. Well of Life is terrible. You could make it better by tweaking it and allowing it to be a free placed object like a snowglobe. It's just kinda "Meh" Currently. Blessing doesn't make allies invulnerable. It used to, however. Just adds damage reduction for however long your duration is. Since most people only use EV Trinity... You get about maybe 2 to 3 seconds of damage reduction. Oberon's reckoning, and renewal could easily be buffed to make him an alternative to Trinity. It won't happen, But It would be easy. 

#5 Mostly Ai. My teammates and I stuck together. However I shouldn't have to play a healing warframe and have it be chore to heal anything period. If something like an NPC is out of my range, or high priority I should be able to cast well of life on upto two targets that get healed regardless of range. Even if they jumped down a hole of the corner of the map where it would kill anyone. 

#6 Not big enough when it comes to AI protection targets. 

  1. I figured that once you got through the star chart and the quests that you'd no longer be a newbie.  That said, that kuva def map does take a little getting used to.
  2. I'm aware.  I've had the NPC once take a nap in the gas chamber... that's why you as a team move with the NPC.
  3. Was the NPC teleporting around?  I could understand if some glitches were happening and such, but if not, you follow them around.
  4. Interesting, I never got that invulnerablity nerf memo.  Thanks for that info.  Regardless, she ~ fully regens everyone's shields and health and can regen everyone's energy, allowing her to continue pumping Blessing out.  Oberon's Reckoning could never approach that without completely throwing it out and making something new, even then he can't regen energy.  Also people choosing EV builds mean nothing, you choose the build best suited to the conditions, that's what 90% of sorties are: prep work.  A good frame and weapon choice and halfway correct build gets rid of 60-70% of the difficulty of any sortie mission.
  5. If you are the healer, if something critical needs healing then it is your job to do so.  This broken sortie mission (yes it is broken, the AI is an idiot after all) requires you to babysit an idiot.  It isn't that hard.
  6. Don't give me that crap.  I've run operative defense missions (even sortie ones) with Frost and managed to protect the idiot operative with my Snow Globe and that sure as heck isn't 50m large. You have to make an effort to follow them around on their little adventure while they tug on your sleeve and say "mister warframe, look at that outlet, I'm going to stick a fork into it!  Watch me, watch me!!".  You don't need to sit right next to them, but staying within 1/2 or 1/3 of the room's distance of that target should be enough for Trinity.

I'm sorry, but unless I'm misunderstanding something I don't understand why you are complaining about having to follow a walking objective around.  Literally everyone else does that.  With your logic, Trinity should be able to sit back at the start of an rescue mission and just cast Blessing to protect the target (once they are broken out) because you can't stay within half of a Football field of the operative.

Anyways, the next time you have to do a similar sortie, bring a Loki or maybe Valkyr as well.  They are about the only frames that can move those idiot AIs.

Edited by Insizer
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Blessings range is fine.  It is the same as the affinity sharing range.
If the party can't stay together within affinity sharing range of the Trinity then maybe they shouldn't be healed?
Part of the reason it was changed was to curb hallway heroes because now a trinity won't always be within range to revive them.  It was also changed to stop the "gameplay" of a Trinity sitting in a corner at the spawn point and hitting 4 to keep up the damage reduction and healing and doing literally nothing else.  Now the Trinity has to keep up with the team and rescue/sortie defense targets.  Wow, so hard to actually play the game!/s

Even if you're entire complaint boils down to "But the AI is broken so I need unlimited range to heal the AI!" all I have to say is: Prepare better.
An Atlas with Fracturing Tectonics can stop the AI from wandering!  A Loki can switch teleport the target back to safe areas, and with his augment he even makes them invincible for a short period of time!  A Valkyr can ripline them, and revive them regardless of where they go!
With Quick Thinking and energy pads and your abilities you can survive reviving them easily!  Blessing + link = 93.75% damage reduction.  Add on Quick Thinking and you can easily revive the target.

Blessings range shouldn't be un-nerfed.  And if you think its too short then go into Vazarin.  Disciplined Approach increases your affinity sharing range by 17 meters, which increases your blessings range.  And 67 meters is more than enough if you even pay half attention to the target.
If you're having problems with the target you should instead look into seeing how you can prepare better instead of wanting to go back to the old "Trinity sits in the spawn point and spams Blessing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and doesn't move or do anything else at all as the most optimal way to play her!"

Edited by Tsukinoki
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22 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Blessings range is fine.  It is the same as the affinity sharing range.
If the party can't stay together within affinity sharing range of the Trinity then maybe they shouldn't be healed?
Part of the reason it was changed was to curb hallway heroes because now a trinity won't always be within range to revive them.  It was also changed to stop the "gameplay" of a Trinity sitting in a corner at the spawn point and hitting 4 to keep up the damage reduction and healing and doing literally nothing else.  Now the Trinity has to keep up with the team and rescue/sortie defense targets.  Wow, so hard to actually play the game!/s

Even if you're entire complaint boils down to "But the AI is broken so I need unlimited range to heal the AI!" all I have to say is: Prepare better.
An Atlas with Fracturing Tectonics can stop the AI from wandering!  A Loki can switch teleport the target back to safe areas, and with his augment he even makes them invincible for a short period of time!  A Valkyr can ripline them, and revive them regardless of where they go!
With Quick Thinking and energy pads and your abilities you can survive reviving them easily!  Blessing + link = 93.75% damage reduction.  Add on Quick Thinking and you can easily revive the target.

Blessings range shouldn't be un-nerfed.  And if you think its too short then go into Vazarin.  Disciplined Approach increases your affinity sharing range by 17 meters, which increases your blessings range.  And 67 meters is more than enough if you even pay half attention to the target.
If you're having problems with the target you should instead look into seeing how you can prepare better instead of wanting to go back to the old "Trinity sits in the spawn point and spams Blessing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and doesn't move or do anything else at all as the most optimal way to play her!"

 

Except that the whole point of Trinity is a support frame. The entire point of me playing trinity was to support my newish friends while keeping the AI target alive. 

You can blame the dumb Ai, but then DE either has to fix the Ai and make it follow people (Unlikely) Or they can tweak trinity in any of the several ways I listed to not make it a complete pain in the &#!. Also I'm not sure how you play Trinity, but I don't spam ultimate from spawn. I play Trinity as a support tank and go find the strongest enemy and have them kill my selves on me with Link. In this case I was with two new players. And they don't have much fun dead on the ground. Luckily the sorties haven't been as ridiculous since, but there is literally no reason to keep Blessing's range as is. Most Energy Vamp Trinity Builds have 250% range with as little duration as possible so other people can cheese. Yet a blessing Based Trinity that's focusing on healing more then anything else needs some sort of tools to pick specific targets or everyone and heal them. 

 

There's no way you know if you are inuring unless you attach yourself at the hip to people. (Hard if they are a faster frame) and extremely chaotic if you are raiding. Oooh Look I have 5 tenno people in my shared affinity range. Huh Wonder If that one person I'm trying to heal will get hit. Oh no, He died and I was out of range. 

 

Go Explore Kuva defense. The Ai went up and down holes. (Roughly three different floors.) He basically just darted around and any time a fire eximus showed up he got fire blasted to who knows where. If you don't agree with blessing being non baby sitter cancer fine. But atleast fix Trinity's well of life so it can compensate for that. A duration heal on a target, or a placeable object or a way to heal something out of my range with 100% certainty that I will heal that target. Guessing at range in a game with notoriously large maps with parkor. 60 meters is not as large as you think. Especially when you helping keep your friends alive in a corner and a stupid ai target wonders to the opposite corner of the map and decides to take a chemical shower in the kava fortress. 

 

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To be fair, the UI does indicate which of your teammates is in range. It just has to be watched closely, since they might be dodging in and out of range as they do what they do.

The problem starts with injured teammates that are out of range. Here you have no recourse. Basically, it comes down to them finding you for a fixit job or it simply sucks to be them when the inevitable happens.

This isn't an issue for EV Trins, which seem to be the majority these days (and sadly so). Link/Blessing Trins, though, well, your team either stays near or you do your own thing and ignore the whining when they start to serially faceplant.

Again, I think the nerf was unnecessary with a DR-focused Blessing. When Blessing conveyed invulnerability or 99+% DR, yeah, sure this sort of restriction made sense. At 75% DR at best? Not so much--and it only really applies to what is now a minority build.

I don't really have a problem with it in the strictest sense. I can get along just fine as a Link/Bless Trin and let the chips fall as they may. It's a very powerful build. However, I think Trin needs a "Come with me if you want to live!" emote, since if players don't stay within 50m they will derive no benefit from this particular type of Trinity.

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17 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

To be fair, the UI does indicate which of your teammates is in range. It just has to be watched closely, since they might be dodging in and out of range as they do what they do.

The problem starts with injured teammates that are out of range. Here you have no recourse. Basically, it comes down to them finding you for a fixit job or it simply sucks to be them when the inevitable happens.

This isn't an issue for EV Trins, which seem to be the majority these days (and sadly so). Link/Blessing Trins, though, well, your team either stays near or you do your own thing and ignore the whining when they start to serially faceplant.

Again, I think the nerf was unnecessary with a DR-focused Blessing. When Blessing conveyed invulnerability or 99+% DR, yeah, sure this sort of restriction made sense. At 75% DR at best? Not so much--and it only really applies to what is now a minority build.

I don't really have a problem with it in the strictest sense. I can get along just fine as a Link/Bless Trin and let the chips fall as they may. It's a very powerful build. However, I think Trin needs a "Come with me if you want to live!" emote, since if players don't stay within 50m they will derive no benefit from this particular type of Trinity.

And it just makes healing a hassle. I have never played another MMO where you could realistically ever be out of healing range. The range was never the overpowered part. It feels like a nerf that went a few steps too far. Especially with how fast some frames can get our of trinities range. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't everyone complain or use too about EV Trinities making missions too much cheese? I really don't understand >.>

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On 2/24/2017 at 10:14 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The place has three floors and the AI Target ran off down a hole somewhere where nobody knew where he was and got himself killed.

Ah.

Okay, I found the problem. It's right here. Pay more attention to the objective.

I'll send you the bill later.

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Blessing range is currently fine.

 

This is coming from a Trinity "main". And no, that does not grant me undisputed input on the subject. 

But i can say that the range limitation have made her more into a co-operative frame that you have to coordinate with, if 50 meter radius is not enough i would recommend that at least one of you run the Vazarin focus to add 17 more meters on that radius, that way you have 67 meter in both direction covering a 134 meter area around Trinity. If more is needed Vazarin can be "stacked".

 

Before this rework a Trinity "Player" could stand in a safe elevated corner and "spam" Blessing, this not only trivialized content when done by a self damaging Trinity but was also extremely tedious and boring, the new design is slightly better due to limited range therefore forcing her into or close to the area where action is occurring.

I will however voice my opinion against the new "design" on how much damage reduction is granted, i agree that it can not be "exploited" by self damage like the old one was. But it is also a lot less fun compared to actively saving allies and being rewarded for elevated risk.

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Rather than increasing the base range, I kinda want Well of Life to create another Affinity Range for Trinity that lets her earn Affinity from further away and extend Blessing to any allies inside as well.

Then any damage to the WoL target also healing all players inside both Affinity Ranges.

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