When DE will afford to host the games

[Vycooss]

I am ranting a bit here regarding the hosting issues that i consistently have. Why other players and myself have to host games, and than lose rewards, abort a mission after completing it, and having lag issues ALL THE TIME, not always, just when the host happen to have bad internet connection.  So much grievance, and upsetting experience i had with it, and sure others too. Every game a i played with other games, the publisher hosted the game servers with excellent quality. I feel it is time that DE takes the next step and hosts the games, and not crowd sourcing the the resources through it's player base. It is an excellent game, and it`s player base deserve a good quality.

[TaylorsContraction]

From what we've been told a lot of the net code will need to be rewritten for dedicated servers.  As such this is a very slow process that began with the relays. 

Next DE released dedicated servers for pvp.  The next thing are dojos.  As all of this is getting done,  they're monitoring the kind of traffic that goes through their servers to identify if dedicated servers is something they can support. Let's hope that it will come in time.

[Praxxor]

4 minutes ago, Vycooss said:

and having lag issues ALL THE TIME, not always, just when the host happen to have bad internet connection.

Set a strict ping limit and change to the region closest to you, these problems usually disappear, also enable the "show FPS" functions and get the hell out of any mission that gets ping spikes.

5 minutes ago, Vycooss said:

Every game a i played with other games, the publisher hosted the game servers with excellent quality.

Which ones? One big game I know that doesn't do this is CSGO, it uses a system similar to Warframe.

 

5 minutes ago, Vycooss said:

 I feel it is time that DE takes the next step and hosts the games, and not crowd sourcing the the resources through it's player base. It is an excellent game, and it`s player base deserve a good quality.

 

We all deserve to ride in Dodge Challengers and have Titan X-s with 6950x watercooled IMO, but that doesn't mean that we can get them, no?

 

 

So here's the thing, the games you're probably talking about are purely PVP games like Overwatch or LoL, where you ONLY need to sync about a dozen players and some entities, the rest of the world is usually very static and doesn't need much syncing, Warframe is VERY different, the whole map seed has to be shared, and then the server has to sync the entities and enemies between the players, it might need to do this for hours for each mission, because some missions last for that long.

Additionally, having a separate server means that you have to SEND data and sync between 4 players, while, if one person hosts it, you only need to send to and sync between 3 players, this can increase bandwidth and processing power needed to maintain a server by up to 20% (It won't be at 20% probably, more like 15% or so).

 

 

 

Also they need some money to do all that, but it grows on trees right? right?

[Mk.1]

2 minutes ago, Praxxor said:

deserve to ride in Dodge Challengers

lol'd

[ChuckMaverick]

Hosting costs can cripple developers/publishers, I'd much rather DE improved the P2P netcode and used their income on developing new content instead of trying to host all missions.

[Klavinmour]

10 minutes ago, Praxxor said:

 

We all deserve to ride in Dodge Challengers

I'll take a '98 Diablo thanks.

[Kereler]

17 minutes ago, Praxxor said:

Set a strict ping limit and change to the region closest to you, these problems usually disappear, also enable the "show FPS" functions and get the hell out of any mission that gets ping spikes.

Which ones? One big game I know that doesn't do this is CSGO, it uses a system similar to Warframe.

 

We all deserve to ride in Dodge Challengers and have Titan X-s with 6950x watercooled IMO, but that doesn't mean that we can get them, no?

 

 

So here's the thing, the games you're probably talking about are purely PVP games like Overwatch or LoL, where you ONLY need to sync about a dozen players and some entities, the rest of the world is usually very static and doesn't need much syncing, Warframe is VERY different, the whole map seed has to be shared, and then the server has to sync the entities and enemies between the players, it might need to do this for hours for each mission, because some missions last for that long.

Additionally, having a separate server means that you have to SEND data and sync between 4 players, while, if one person hosts it, you only need to send to and sync between 3 players, this can increase bandwidth and processing power needed to maintain a server by up to 20% (It won't be at 20% probably, more like 15% or so).

 

 

 

Also they need some money to do all that, but it grows on trees right? right?

Wait what do you mean CSGO has a similar system to Warframe? No it doesn't. CSGO relies on Valve servers strewn throughout the world for matchmaking hosting.

[Praxxor]

2 minutes ago, Kereler said:

Wait what do you mean CSGO has a similar system to Warframe? No it doesn't. CSGO relies on Valve servers strewn throughout the world for matchmaking hosting.

No, that's only some of the servers, you can actually host a server at home, and if it's not modified (like AT ALL) then it'll be used for matchmaking near you.

[Kereler]

Just now, Praxxor said:

No, that's only some of the servers, you can actually host a server at home, and if it's not modified (like AT ALL) then it'll be used for matchmaking near you.

Since when??? You can host third party servers for CSGO, but official matchmaking takes place on Valve servers, and VALVE SERVERS ONLY. I have never once heard about a server from a third party being used as an official MM server.

[SenorClipClop]

The quickest route to DE-hosted servers is giving them the funding to acquire servers, run those servers and pay the employees that would keep the servers running. The most common way MMOs do this is to have pay-to-play monthly subscription. Honest question, OP, is this something you want for Warframe?

[Vycooss]

57 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

The quickest route to DE-hosted servers is giving them the funding to acquire servers, run those servers and pay the employees that would keep the servers running. The most common way MMOs do this is to have pay-to-play monthly subscription. Honest question, OP, is this something you want for Warframe?

Truthfully, I would be ok with it, I buy Platinum almost every month, just a little to get cosmetics, potatoes, exilus adapters, warframe/weapon/sentinel/archwing slots etc, stuff that you cant farm easily. So the short answer is, I am perfectly fine with paying for an entertainment service, that i use regularly and enjoy, even more so if i get a better quality experience as a result. Lot of people like free stuff, but I personally like quality over free. 

[Vycooss]

1 hour ago, Praxxor said:

So here's the thing, the games you're probably talking about are purely PVP games like Overwatch or LoL, where you ONLY need to sync about a dozen players and some entities, the rest of the world is usually very static and doesn't need much syncing, Warframe is VERY different, the whole map seed has to be shared, and then the server has to sync the entities and enemies between the players, it might need to do this for hours for each mission, because some missions last for that long.

I am certain that DE has a talented team of developers, who can code a good solution. And i am more certain that it is about the money, not the difficulty of the code. If players host the games, DE don`t have to provide infrastructure for them. And that is a huge savings of money, unfortunately the price is we as player pay for it in terms of game quality.

[CeePee]

Well seeing as Ubisoft can't even do it, don't hold your breath. P2P has been mostly fine for me with some hiccups here and there.

[ComCray]

23 minutes ago, Vycooss said:

Truthfully, I would be ok with it, I buy Platinum almost every month, just a little to get cosmetics, potatoes, exilus adapters, warframe/weapon/sentinel/archwing slots etc, stuff that you cant farm easily. So the short answer is, I am perfectly fine with paying for an entertainment service, that i use regularly and enjoy, even more so if i get a better quality experience as a result. Lot of people like free stuff, but I personally like quality over free. 

The monthly subscription fee would kill the game. Pretty sure the majority of tenno out there play this game for it's free nature. If monthly subscription becomes a thing, these will migrate to other free games. Because they have already done all there is to do in this game and paying for same-old-same-old won't do.

The servers you'll have will have excellent connections and service because they will be mostly barren.

[Vycooss]

2 minutes ago, ComCray said:

The monthly subscription fee would kill the game. Pretty sure the majority of tenno out there play this game for it's free nature. If monthly subscription becomes a thing, these will migrate to other free games. Because they have already done all there is to do in this game and paying for same-old-same-old won't do.

The servers you'll have will have excellent connections and service because they will be mostly barren.

I do agree with you point, and that`s the sad truth. 

However, what if there is an option. Free to play, peer hosted, and an optional paid service with the benefit of DE hosted good quality servers. I think that`s a win win.

[ComCray]

1 minute ago, Vycooss said:

I do agree with you point, and that`s the sad truth. 

However, what if there is an option. Free to play, peer hosted, and an optional paid service with the benefit of DE hosted good quality servers. I think that`s a win win.

Here's what will happen:

Initially there's be a substantial amount of current players move to the server platform (sWF). Many of them the Whales that bring fresh platinum into the game. In the three following months that amount will be gradually decli.. decimated until there's a meager 20/30% left.

after the first month people who just thought to see how it worked will be gone

after the second, most of those that realize paying for same-old-same-old isn't their cuppa tea

after the third month people who really like to play with others are leaving because of the lack of exactly these people

What is left is a select group of elite-high-brow-OP-meta-veterans with as much patience for newb's as they are showing now (that is: very little), apart form a few lost souls that are really trying or are really deluded.

On the P2P side of things there'll be a relative shortage on fresh platinum hitting the market, which causes a mild inflation after a month or two. The initial emptiness from people leaving for the sWF will be felt but will gradually become better after a month because of those that come back to p2pWF.

In the mean time DE has spend serious development time into sWF together with their other departments coming under a strain because they have to figure out one or more subscription models, including how this adds revenue and how that fits into their current tax and other financial plans. Apart from this, they now have to support two more development-paths for the PC, which means more testing, more bugs. The p2pWF netcode optimization path has slowed down considerably and part of their IT is now devoted to communication and planning for sWF.

Due to the declining player base on sWF they will have to start making the players still in the program pay more, which will turn away even more people. 

In the end the wasted effort put by DE into this project will come to the attention of the share-holders, who are not amused by the amount of man-hours lost, not to mention the revenue that is not coming the way marketing had envisioned it (this ALWAYS happens). Some decide to pull the plug entirely because of, what they perceive as ineptitude on the part of DE's business decisions. 

What happens next is anyone's guess. Will DE survive this hemorrhaging of funds to save their game? Will they find another businesspartner that will help them to keep their head above water? Will they finally have to lay-off Sheldon Carter? Or will the last Warframe be a beggar? 

Who knows.. who knows... Stay tuned for our next episode of "Silly Things DE Could Do To Kill Warframe"...

[F8ted]

1 hour ago, SenorClipClop said:

The quickest route to DE-hosted servers is giving them the funding to acquire servers, run those servers and pay the employees that would keep the servers running. The most common way MMOs do this is to have pay-to-play monthly subscription. Honest question, OP, is this something you want for Warframe?

Yeah... Most MMOs are not pay-to-play monthly subscriptions. Some of the more popular are, but by the numbers freemium MMOs are much more common than subscription models. Most make more money than subscription models. Not out of the realm of possibility from a marketing perspective of a freemium game like Warframe. The main problem warframe has is players are more often trading platinum between each other than caring about the market. Most cash-shop items are paid for with currency not transferable between players. This was a quirk of a decision from the beginning but hey, their game.

That said, I too would like DE hosted servers. Sounds like they could boot up some office computers and run some conclave servers currently at the moment. If they actually acquired infrastructure, they could make PvP realistically competitive. Maybe people would care to play it. It may even fix that silly Network Not Responding problem finally. Or they could not upgrade the system to be consistent with current options, and lose out on the customers that value such a system. I've been here a while, so I'm probably staying. Granted I played Diablo 2 right up to the release of Diablo 3, so I'm one of the patient ones. 

[Zeclem]

2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

The quickest route to DE-hosted servers is giving them the funding to acquire servers, run those servers and pay the employees that would keep the servers running. The most common way MMOs do this is to have pay-to-play monthly subscription. Honest question, OP, is this something you want for Warframe?

most common way? you sure about that "most common"? since mmos that make the most money are completely free. theres a reason those p2p mmos are all going f2p.

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, F8ted said:

Yeah... Most MMOs are not pay-to-play monthly subscriptions. Some of the more popular are, but by the numbers freemium MMOs are much more common than subscription models.

Yes, I know this. What I said was that if an MMO hosts player games on their own servers, subs are a common method for maintaining a steady income for the game (FF14, EVE, etc.).

[Soulden]

Not to mention, most publishers run about 30 other different games in order to subsidize server RENTING costs.
But out of those games they develop zero and support is close to none.

And to top it off, most will just dilute the player base by creating multiple channels, think matchmaking is bad now?
Try playing on a server, broken in to 8-20 channels and play the channel switching in order to speed the matchmaking system.

But yeah, if DE could ever manage to switch to dedicated servers, that will be the day.

As for right now, it is what it is...

[Tesseract7777]

I would prefer that DE just made hosting games more robust for the host. Let us create the mission custom/decide tile/enemy level/etc,. etc. Let us host up to 8 people (or more eventually) if we are a good enough host to handle it ourselves. Allow those with really good hosting to do it for them. I still think DE should host a lot of major nodes themselves, but that would take a lot of stress of their servers and give us way more choice. 

Imagine if you had good enough hosting and you could set up your own eight person survival or something somewhere, all with your own custom conditions and tileset? That would be sweet. 

[TalonBlue]

Topical. Considering the problems with P2P with For Honor it would make sense at some point this game move away P2P. If they can afford it.

[ChuckMaverick]

49 minutes ago, TalonBlue said:

Topical. Considering the problems with P2P with For Honor it would make sense at some point this game move away P2P. If they can afford it.

What's the relevance of For Honor's P2P problems (a game that's been around for about five minutes) to Warframe, a game that's been around for over four years with better P2P hosting?

[Vycooss]

Well the question is, that from the Platinum income, in the current F2P model, would it be possible to host servers? Or maybe setup hosting for accounts who pay a monthly subscription fee, and keep the current player hosting for the free accounts.

[Rakosta_Kai]

I would imagine that their hosting capability is increasing with talk of hosting dojos (hopefully this is an option and not a requirement) but this game is far from being able to reasonably require subscription fees.

Hosting is prohibitively expensive and I don't expect it ever. That said though, Gazillion has server hosting (if I remember correctly) and only a couple of  games all being f2p so it's possible.