Another Prime released with still no changes validating the alleged "less grindy" aspect of the Relic System.

[TheLexiConArtist]

8 minutes ago, taiiat said:

it's mathematically easier to get an item you're looking for. but there's always someone that wants to insist otherwise without any scientific reasoning.

should the Pools for Keys be split apart more? quite perhaps. to reduce how wide of a spread for Keys you're looking at with any given Pool.
in addition it would be nice(and important tbh) to be able to opt on any Key Reward to instead roll for a lower Tier Key instead - because then Veteran Players don't need to play the boring Lv1 Missions and Et Cetera to get all of the Key Types they need.

but, you objectively acquire an item you're looking for faster, and with more variety in what you're doing and seeing, so... the goal is entirely achieved.

Wholly incorrect, I'm afraid. I can't think of a single part from the Void that took me 56 directed gameplay hours to acquire, and I can certainly say that different void tiles were more variety than straying from a single tile map every eight hours.

Mathematically, if you already have the relic and traces, you have better odds. You have 10% alone, or 34.39% in a group of four, for a given rare. Chances for a rare in the more bloated pools of the Void were estimated as low as 1-2%

Getting those relics and traces can be a completely different story. Using my time averaged for Axi V5, eight hours each drop, and assuming in favour of relics (I later learned that V5 only dropped in rotation C, thus treating the B/C Axi drops both as potential successes was inaccurate) it was shown that the odds worked out, accounting favourably for Interception round time, that the raw chance over invested time was lower for the relic than the gold standard for people's chagrin, good old Tower 3 Survival.

It's quite easy to identify the breakeven point where the odds overlap, based on the two different drop odds. Multiply the drop odds of the relic with a percentile chance of getting the relic to begin with, and see if that beats out the Void rate.

5.8% absolute minimum relic drop rate for radshares, and 20% absolute minimum for solo-rad runs, incidentally, using 2% odds for the Void drop rate.

13 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

Well it makes you bored, I don't get that thrill, so that part makes no difference to me, but Incidentally the other thing they didn't want was people farming up a treasure trove of prime parts from a single key, So that's also working as intended.

Sure, you aren't getting a bunch from one key. You just get a quarter of the rewards from a squad's run of four relics.

You might not get the thrill of anticipation, but I'm sure any sane person would feel the trepidation of another dull multi-hour grind looming over them if their pure luck just isn't favourable.

[MrDar1o]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)AleDiorio said:

60 min for 1 Axi B1!! OMG, after that I played the relic..... and.. nothing!!... ok, bad luck. I started again, 60 min 0 Axi B1... 60 min 0 Axi B1...

Let's look at old system.

60 min for 1 Void Key! OMG, after that I played the key for another 60 minutes... and... nothing!... ok, bad luck, I started again, 60 min for 1 Void Key and then another 60 minut survival, because key has rotations...

[(PSN)joshw1400]

36 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Nobody says that. The point is, after eight hours in the void with no luck, you're only 20 minutes away from another opportunity. Eight hours per relic means that a failed run means you're doomed to another eight hours, on average, of waiting for that next shot.

But it doesn't take 8 hours to farm a relic.

[rapt0rman]

18 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

 

Sure, you aren't getting a bunch from one key. You just get a quarter of the rewards from a squad's run of four relics.

You might not get the thrill of anticipation, but I'm sure any sane person would feel the trepidation of another dull multi-hour grind looming over them if their pure luck just isn't favourable.

No really, both grinds are the same to me, grinding for hours 20 minutes at a time with the old system vs grinding for hours 5 minutes at a time with the new system. Both systems rely on luck pretty much equally.

Edited March 1, 2017 by rapt0rman

[Chipputer]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)joshw1400 said:

But it doesn't take 8 hours to farm a relic.

It does when you try to find evidence to back up your already formed conclusion, instead of doing it the proper way!

It isn't perfect, but everyone who seems to be mad with relics seems to always just give me the impression that they're mad they can't mooch off of other people's keys as easily as before.

[GmG-ITA]

23 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Wholly incorrect, I'm afraid. I can't think of a single part from the Void that took me 56 directed gameplay hours to acquire, and I can certainly say that different void tiles were more variety than straying from a single tile map every eight hours.

Mathematically, if you already have the relic and traces, you have better odds. You have 10% alone, or 34.39% in a group of four, for a given rare. Chances for a rare in the more bloated pools of the Void were estimated as low as 1-2%

Getting those relics and traces can be a completely different story. Using my time averaged for Axi V5, eight hours each drop, and assuming in favour of relics (I later learned that V5 only dropped in rotation C, thus treating the B/C Axi drops both as potential successes was inaccurate) it was shown that the odds worked out, accounting favourably for Interception round time, that the raw chance over invested time was lower for the relic than the gold standard for people's chagrin, good old Tower 3 Survival.

It's quite easy to identify the breakeven point where the odds overlap, based on the two different drop odds. Multiply the drop odds of the relic with a percentile chance of getting the relic to begin with, and see if that beats out the Void rate.

5.8% absolute minimum relic drop rate for radshares, and 20% absolute minimum for solo-rad runs, incidentally, using 2% odds for the Void drop rate.

Sure, you aren't getting a bunch from one key. You just get a quarter of the rewards from a squad's run of four relics.

You might not get the thrill of anticipation, but I'm sure any sane person would feel the trepidation of another dull multi-hour grind looming over them if their pure luck just isn't favourable.

 

Bo handle

Syndicates didn't exist when it was released

Dropped form T4 exterminateyou had to do 4 waves of interception for 1/3chance to get the key  (the rotation gave T4 MD / T4C T4E)

You had to do at least 50 run to get it.

 

 

[Ozamchist]

Remember when you would get things like fusion cores and orokin cells as rewards from the old void system?

I do.

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

It does when you try to find evidence to back up your already formed conclusion, instead of doing it the proper way!

It isn't perfect, but everyone who seems to be mad with relics seems to always just give me the impression that they're mad they can't mooch off of other people's keys as easily as before.

More accurate would be to say that it can, and if it can then it's important to factor that in when determining the investment you're asking of your playerbase.

Not everyone suffered 8 hours between Axi V5 drops, no. But I did, and multi-hour burdens were stated several times in the unsuccessful runs I did partake in.

Many paths taken to the same end, my friend. It's all we can do unless DE graces us with specifics of the odds and rotations upon which Relics drop. Hence why I worked back and reasoned that if any relic ever fell below a 5.8% drop chance, it was inadequate and proved the Void superior - and that's for full scale Radiant shares, without accounting for specific mission time and ignoring the trace farming..

 

Define mooching? Is it mooching if I use someone else's T4 Exterminate key because I got a T4 Capture key, but I host an open run up with that T4 Capture at a later time?

To me, that sounds like ameliorating personal RNG into a community. The guy with Exterminates but unfortunately no Captures gets Cap runs, and vice versa. Can't do that with relics, without grossly sacrificing the actual draw of the system - the refinement and squad-stacking of those refined odds.

6 minutes ago, GmG-ITA said:

Bo handle

Syndicates didn't exist when it was released

Dropped form T4 exterminateyou had to do 4 waves of interception for 1/3chance to get the key  (the rotation gave T4 MD / T4C T4E)

You had to do at least 50 run to get it.

You had to? No, but it was possible. But those other keys, you had to give back while you "mooched" (see above) people who had Exterminate keys available. Even if not immediately, you had those keys ready for the next item that was placed in them, and suddenly you're Mr. Popular Host giving people rides to all the MDs and Caps they needed while Exterminate is bereft of anything new.

7 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

Remember when you would get things like fusion cores and orokin cells as rewards from the old void system?

I do.

Sure I do. I also remember when endless missions were stuck in a cycle of permanently giving Forma Blueprints, and I swear I've only just gotten down to my last 14 of them.

Good times, man.

Good times.

[Va1kyr]

Farming on Xini is @(*()$ dumb, use infested salvage with 2 or 3 players. wth are u pulling 8 hours for a relic from?

Edited March 1, 2017 by DapperMasquerade

[TheLexiConArtist]

14 minutes ago, DapperMasquerade said:

Farming on Xini is @(*()$ dumb, use infested salvage with 2 or 3 players. wth are u pulling 8 hours for a relic from?

Eight hours was my average over seven drops when Axi V5 was fresh. Again, I don't claim that's the overall average, but it was consistently mine up until I didn't need to keep track, which is enough for the sake of highlighting the potential for problems.

 

Also, I'd love to take your advice, except I have some qualms with accepting guidance for celerity from someone recommending to use multiple players in a mission objectively slowed down by multiple participants compared to efficient solo play. You don't wait for as many tickdowns on rounds and you can keep everything fully working through transitions.

 

That aside, the actual drop rates suck and you only get one Axi drop opportunity at that. More likely you'll be stuck with Trick Mag, Trick Mag, Streamline or somesuch. Honestly, if the drops were on par with Interception (fixing the unreliable Rot B and if Rot C wasn't dedicated to Niddles) I would absolutely farm Salvage. It's at least more engaging than interception is.

[(PSN)WetPollito]

1 hour ago, MrDar1o said:

Let's look at old system.

60 min for 1 Void Key! OMG, after that I played the key for another 60 minutes... and... nothing!... ok, bad luck, I started again, 60 min for 1 Void Key and then another 60 minut survival, because key has rotations...

I didn't compare with the old system... and bc the old system was bad, I have to say now it is perfect??.. Srry but this relic system is not perfect, is not funny and is bored and tedious, I said and I say what I see/feel in the game, not what DE wants to listen.  

 

[Ozamchist]

11 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Sure I do. I also remember when endless missions were stuck in a cycle of permanently giving Forma Blueprints, and I swear I've only just gotten down to my last 14 of them.

Good times, man.

Good times.

Except see now you only have the forma to worry about, before you had to additionally worry about: credits, fusion cores, more keys, orokin cells.

Were dealing with 80% less fluff in our keys now, with the bonus of not having to deal with the same exact missions in the same exact tile sets over and over again.

[Rawbeard]

it is less grindy though.

[NightmareT12]

I think some people are confusing less grindy with "I want new released item they sell me for $$$ on DAY 1".

When next tuesday hits, if you've been playing Warframe regularly this week, chances are you'll have the Prime Access items already. Without losing your sanity, too.

Meanwhile, before, it meant you could go running the same thing forever in a bad luck strike that could last you for a month. Never forget the 3 months it took me to get Frost Prime back in 2013.

I personally thank DE for making it more fair, more accessible and more fun (10 reactant infinite Tigris ammo yay!).

It's not perfect, but it's leagues and heaps above than where it was.

[DrBorris]

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Tell me, if twenty 20 minute runs makes you feel hopeless, how do you feel after a failed Radiant run on a relic you spent eight hours grinding for?

How about the fifth time you fail it, still running that average time per relic drop?

 

It took me seven for Axi V5. I'd sit in void survivals all goddamned day sooner than have 56 gameplay hours spent in boring missions (plus time for trace farming) just for 35 minutes of mission where I was actually in a position to get what I was seeking.

Twenty 20 min runs does make me feel hopeless... and also irritated because I am tired of the same shiny tile-set.

Where are you getting 8 hours from? If this is math, I'd love to see it. But I assume it is just a random number for dramatic effect... You told someone to not consider the lucky 1%, so please avoid hypocrisy and ignore the unlucky 1%.

 

None of these numbers make any sense, and you are still stating your opinion like fact. I like the gameplay loop of the new system, I like its psychology, obviously you don't. This is fine though, people will like/dislike things, but you are toting that the "psychology" of relics as objectively worse than keys, but that is only your personal view.

 

2 hours ago, Elyann said:

I'm sorry....I don't get your logic....I don't actually think there's any in this sentence...

You are missing OP's point by a mile with this statement, even though I get it's not what you meant.
If you want to make a comparison you should compare 1 hour in hell by suffering extremely to two hours in hell by suffering moderately.....if you just compare S#&$ to cookies like you did everyone will obviously pick cookies.
OP's logic isn't limited to "It's faster" , they are saying that it's less grindy and so more efficient...it might be more boring for some of us, it might not for others but that's all up to a personal prefernce, OP expressed theirs, you expressed yours.

I am sick and tired of people crying about burn out because they refuse to play anything besides "the best". Yes, my example was (very) extreme, but the premise showcases the biggest issue I have with the community. This is a game, a game where you are supposed to have fun. If you are committing yourself to get stuff as fast as possible without any concern for your enjoyment, that's on you not the game.

For a more realistic example, let's look at Sovereign Outcast. If you want to go the most efficient route, I am pretty sure running Kuva Siphons over and over is more efficient because of the high spawn rate of Kuva Heavy Gunners as well as not having to deal with the 8 min at the beginning of a Survival (not sure how long for def) when Heavy Gunners don't even spawn. So, if I wanted to get Sovereign Outcast as fast as possible I would play Kuva Siphons. However, I love Grineer Survivals. I play extended pub Survivals all the time for no reason other than fun, so while it will take me longer (I still don't have the mod) to get the mod from Survival I will gladly spend more time "grinding" because I find it fun.

 

This is of course just my take on Sovereign Outcast, some may prefer running the shorter mission types, and that is the beauty of Warframe. More often than not there are many ways to approach a grind. You don't have to make the grind a chore, you can have fun playing the game while simultaneously "grinding". Sure, it may not be as fast, but this is not a job with a deadline, it is supposed to be a pastime.

 

So, if the OP burns himself out on Xini, it is on him and not the game. There are many other places to farm relics, and while Xini is the best, it does not trump the other options by so much that they are irrelevant (this is an issue that modding and weapons have, but that is a topic for another time).

 

However, could Relic acquisition be better? Of course, they should honestly drop from all mission types. And, as somebody pointed out earlier, the acquisition of low tier relics needs to be looked at because as a vet it is not super enjoyable to play level 5 missions (ODS is the current way to avoid that, but one node should never be the solution cough*Hema*cough). As a whole though, Relics are better AND have more promise than keys.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, TermiteFrame said:

Except see now you only have the forma to worry about, before you had to additionally worry about: credits, fusion cores, more keys, orokin cells.

Were dealing with 80% less fluff in our keys now, with the bonus of not having to deal with the same exact missions in the same exact tile sets over and over again.

Missing the point entirely about how the issue lies with getting the (specific) key itself. Alternatively, citing that other guy recommending Salvage - the fluff is in all those Trick Mags and Vitalities that drop in lieu of relics, merciful missions with guaranteed drops on rotations B and/or C aside.

1 hour ago, NightmareT12 said:

I think some people are confusing less grindy with "I want new released item they sell me for $$$ on DAY 1".

When next tuesday hits, if you've been playing Warframe regularly this week, chances are you'll have the Prime Access items already. Without losing your sanity, too.

Meanwhile, before, it meant you could go running the same thing forever in a bad luck strike that could last you for a month. Never forget the 3 months it took me to get Frost Prime back in 2013.

I personally thank DE for making it more fair, more accessible and more fun (10 reactant infinite Tigris ammo yay!).

It's not perfect, but it's leagues and heaps above than where it was.

It took me 7 tries at 8 hours per opportunity, averaged, to get the rare from Axi V5 radiant shares.

That is 0.6561^7 = 5.2% chance of failure by that point.

Apply the same timeframe in 20-minute increments against a 2% drop rate:

(56*60)/20 = 168 opportunities. 0.98^168 = 3.3% chance of failure by that point.

The RNG is still an RNG, bad luck is still bad luck. Only now you have more points of failure and, quite likely, a much longer downtime between shots at the ultimate goal.

In my case there, due to the nested RNG, mathematically relics proved to be inferior. That is inarguable. For everyone that can say "Well relics aren't that bad, I got mine every <x> long and it only took me <y> tries", there's another that can say something similar about the Void of old.

 

This time, B1 hasn't been quite so bad (possibly because it's available on B rotations instead of purely C)... but I've still had a 3-hour interval. Which is still quite ridiculous downtime.

 

38 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Twenty 20 min runs does make me feel hopeless... and also irritated because I am tired of the same shiny tile-set.

Where are you getting 8 hours from? If this is math, I'd love to see it. But I assume it is just a random number for dramatic effect... You told someone to not consider the lucky 1%, so please avoid hypocrisy and ignore the unlucky 1%.

None of these numbers make any sense, and you are still stating your opinion like fact. I like the gameplay loop of the new system, I like its psychology, obviously you don't. This is fine though, people will like/dislike things, but you are toting that the "psychology" of relics as objectively worse than keys, but that is only your personal view.

My average was eight hour intervals with Axi V5. This is not everyone's average. My current average for B1 is three hour intervals. This is still not everyone's average.

If DE blessed us with the rotation details (B, C, both?) and drop odds, we could make a strict judgement by extrapolating the time taken to complete, say, a round of Interception. Lacking that, we criticise based on the impact of bad luck. We use anecdotes, fully knowing that they may not be representative of the overall average, to form an idea of how bad it can be, and what it means when that happens.

 

Hence the psychological connotation. If the price of failure (failure you have no control over, being an RNG drop) can be several hours until another opportunity arises, that is going to feel worse than the price of failure being 20 minutes until your next opportunity.

 

I'm going to analogise here with a reference to WoW. Specifically, super-rare mount drops.

Void analogy: Once in 100, maybe even once in 1000, the boss at the end of a dungeon, easily clearable in maybe half an hour at worst by an overleveled player, drops a mount. _{Baron Rivendare, your deathcharger if you please.}

Relics analogy: Every single time some super-rare world enemy spawns, it successfully drops a mount. However, the spawn rate can be literally days if not weeks because it's a rare replacement on a rare spawn (nested RNG). The chance can still be missed, because another player might run across it before you discover it after spawning. _{TLPD, my baby.}

 

Who feels worse when they knowingly miss their chance? The one who can exit, refresh and try again over the next 30 minutes, or the one who has to monitor the spawns for the next obscene duration in hopes that they catch the next time the super-rare replaces the normal-rare?

Sure, technically a 1 in 1000 drop at 30 minutes each takes an average of almost 21 days to acquire, but you're never more than 30 minutes away from possibly seeing it, which softens the blow. 'Oh well, try again'.

[Ozamchist]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Missing the point entirely about how the issue lies with getting the (specific) key itself. Alternatively, citing that other guy recommending Salvage - the fluff is in all those Trick Mags and Vitalities that drop in lieu of relics, merciful missions with guaranteed drops on rotations B and/or C aside.

Oh no I understand you issue. Your real complaint is that you miss the old investment with the void key system. You could have a T- whatever key and it would always have the potential to contain the latest hottest product in the future. This meant you could just stockpile and stockpile and stockpile keys until you had so many keys you wouldn't have to worry about them in a loooong time and wouldn't really need to to go outside of the void except for a select few places.  But that's gone now and every time the latest hottest product a new prime comes out you have to go out and farm for new keys/relics, oh how dare they. However this perspective is limited. It doesn't take things like vaulted items into account. See before items that would be vaulted would be gone, you couldn't farm for them no matter what keys/relics you or somebody else possessed, the would be gone. Now however those keys stay in your inventory and contain those vaulted parts meaning you don't have to rush to get x prime before it goes away for ever, now you can just gather keys/relics and farm them whenever you leisure afterwards. Also the latest hottest product will eventually become available in more keys as the next latest hottest product rolls in. Another boon is that you can open and go fishing for the stuff inside your keys/relics in any available as long as its the corresponding tier so you can cherry pick your mission type. No longer do you have to put on the rubber gloves and say "Oh boy time for another heking T4 intercept again" you can just wait for another T4 flavor, hek you can even wait for the faction of your choice might take a while, but you can. Furthermore whenever you run a key you have 80% less fluff to worry about as the only non primed part you can get is forma (which not going to lie isn't even all that bad really, stuff is right useful for upgrading all your stuff and unlike fusioncores/endo it doesn't drop off of enemies and show up in every mission you play).

So yes I understand your Opinion, but I very much disagree with it. And if I'm still missing your point then maybe... just maybe... the point your trying to make is too complex for us plebeians, and maybe should dumb it down for us so we can see what you are trying to say.

Edited March 2, 2017 by TermiteFrame

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

The part that I find disheartening isn't missing a rare on a relic, it's getting the goddamn void traces to refine them. If I have an Axi B1, and it's radiant, and I don't get New Frame Prime, I'm disappointed but I get it. The odds are low - the breakdown is what, 10% for the rare, and 649% for a Forma blueprint? So I don't expect the drop. 

What is discouraging as hell is gathering void traces, and burning up the crap relics just do do so. That's what colors the larger issue of not getting that one radiant Axi to give you the juicy stuff. Instead, I burn dozens of Lith V2 or whatever, knowing going in that "nothing good will come of this." 

I can't compare the Old Way versus the New Way; I didn't start until late December. The New Way has provided me with numerous prime items, but I have no idea if the old way would have given me more. If I could ask for 1 change, it would be to set base void trace amounts per fissure class, with a bonus added on top of that. So 10, 15, 20, 25 base, just for showing up to the mission with pants on. Then whatever else you had on top. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[RistN]

Biggest problem I personally have is putting insignificant mods and other stuff into rotations rewards pool where relics also drop.

Isn't there enough relics already to make rng hard enough to get a new relics?This other stuff in rotations pool is a finger in our eye when we farm relics.

I like new system better but I do understand some players that are still old void fans.DE did everything right except the part of acquiring relics.Acquiring prime parts is easier than getting relic for them.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

As I understand it, the rotation model is AABC - AABC - AABC and repeating like that. I think they should cycle out the "early" reward rotations over time. Instead of AABCAABC... ad infinitum, it should be AABC-ABBC-BBBC-BBCC-BCCC-CCCC

And yes, I think that if you've the patience to stay in for 85 minutes/whatever waves/whatever excavators that is, you've earned the right to get Rotation C rewards for the rest of the run. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[Volinus7]

Well the true purpose of relic is to reduce the amount of prime parts in the system, with easier pRNG seeding as a cherry on top of the cake.

 

I honestly don't know where "reduce the grind" originated from.

Did DE state it in the past?

[GoneBlank]

I can tell you one thing....actually playing the game to rotation C was far more enjoyable for me than sitting in Recruiting chat and trying to organize lobbies for missions that seem to last a few minutes at most. I literally spend more time in recruiting chat than I do playing the game....I'm over it.... I think this time I'll just be buying everything with plat in a few weeks. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by GoneBlank

[Ranchpig]

Some good debates going on here for sure.   Love OP's mathematical perspective.  Always impressed by the big brains of the community.  

I think there are positives/negatives with both systems.   Relics do seem to reward the actual part pretty quickly.  But again that's provided you have the relics, traces, etc.   If you do not... well... it's worse than old system, even though I had a really bad go with Trin's systems ... I think it was T3MD... took 35 goes before I got it.   Then I got it again the very next go.   So that's truly an outlier.

My biggest gripe isn't about the RNG of the system, as stated that will never change, it's the way these relics are actually implemented.   First, who the heck came up with the naming system?   Really S1 or V3 or X5... it's so arbitrary, and when you're actually trying to keep up with recruit chat it's pretty damn easy to miss.    Why they couldn't have started with A's then B's then C's, etc   but whatever.   Secondly and most frustrating is finding squads.   Oh it's not such a big deal on the day of the release, there's so many people gunning for it.   But a week later??   I actually hate recruit chat, but that's a different story.    Thirdly, why the cap on traces?   Raise it at minimum.  1250 is 13 or 14 refinements at best.     Lastly,  the Fissure mission types are pretty crappy in general.   Wish they had put a little more thought into it than just having a bunch of corrupted's voiding in.   Pretty lame.   And for those players that say "oh now there is variety"  then you don't play much.   Not one mission on star chart besides salvage, kuva fortress, that any vet doesn't know every nook and cranny and how to play it mindlessly. 

Anyway, good debate, lots of thought put into it.   All in all, relics isn't horrible, just not that polished.

[JalakBali]

Grindiness is not clear (and IMO it's the same amount of grindiness) but the current process is objectively more casual friendly. You no longer have to stomach certain missions like Survival or Defense just for certain parts. You pick whichever mission that has fissure. You don't need to pre-form groups except for a radiant party just to get a prime part. The relic you farmed stays with you instead of the drop table changing like in keys so you don't need to quickly spend your keys before parts get vaulted. You can spend your time improving your chances on getting the part you want with radiants unlike before.

[deltas5]

Old void system:

• everyone got the same reward usually had to party up with others to do the endless missions "keyshare" to make it go easier and allow the party to go on longer and do the mission multiple times.
• You had the possibility of someone mooching off of your group without using their key and leaving after the first run or two.
• Endless mission gave orokin cells and fusion cores in the rotations as well. So it was possible to go through a T4 Surv or Def and get 1 Orokin Cell or Fusion Core.
• All the rewards obviously had a set probability to drop, so there was no way to "even the odds" of the rewards.
• The Keys were all mission specific so I hardly ever did T4 Endless mission, but when I did I hardly ever did 2 rotations of C.
• <Insert Pro or Con I forgot here>

New system:

• downside is farming the relics and getting void traces for radiant. Can't say I actually farmed intently for the relics yet but I do usually buy one to two relic packs from the syndicates per day.
• I can choose what mission type I want to play. If I want to I can "rad share" and basically get a total of 4 opportunities in one mission or cycle for what I want (in endless).
• If I decide to go public party I might end up getting a rare or uncommon I wasn't specifically farming at the time and finish or start another set.
• At the end of the mission everyone used their relic (unless someone didn't pick up all their void traces )
• Endless missions I can choose a new relic every rotation if I want which can be bad if I don't have enough of the relic or good because I can keep going for the same reward. Same with my group members if "rad-share" or in public I can change it up and go for a different prime part.
• Not a big fan of the fact there is a cap on void traces
• EDIT: <Insert Pro or Con I forgot here>

Overall in my opinion I say I like the new system more than the old one based on the fact I get to choose what mission I want, I can "even the odds" a little for what I want, can basically get a total of 4 opportunities in one mission to get what I want (if rad-share), or get something I wasn't farming for but was something I haven't gotten or what I need for a different prime.

Also I don't like endless mission styles at all. No matter what time of day it is I always end up nodding off and/or falling asleep. I can honestly say I actually slept with my eyes open in a solo survival mission. Weirdest experience EVER.

Edited March 2, 2017 by deltas5