The Pacifism Defect: Hotfix 19.12.1+19.12.1.1

[alanchat]

Would it be possible to increase the kuva resource ?

- We look for hours and use them very short seconds .

 - With round number of preference, No 666 or 999 456 etc ...            

 

The basic double would be non-negligible

 

thank§ You

 

[Zylofan]

why can't i see my clan on the leader board? did we not score high enough? the scores shown per clan seem much higher then what is shown on the top 10% too...

[BradKing]

Yeah the AI is painful in the event, we've had entire groups dropping through the floor and teleporting back to some point in their journey, mostly dieing/needed revive. If it happens twice you're basically losing points..

This spot is one that often breaks, they tend to go right (towards the exit) as if they could handle the parkour:

[Milinko]

On 3/3/2017 at 4:09 PM, [DE]Megan said:

The Resources available in The Pacifism Defect mission are now the same Resource table as the Orokin Derelicts! 

Better Idea just make it all mutagen samples and polymer bundles and we'll be happy.

[imoneoldfart]

Great idea, cut the mutagen sample drops to 1/4 of that it is. this isnt a joke, i am serious about this.

[KichiK]

It was said that the original numbers for the tiers were based on 50% clan participation, and given that the Victory tier is unchanged, let's run with that.

A shadow clan in 30 people at most
The limit they need to hit in combined best scores is 12,100
Half of 30 is 15
12,100 / 15 = ~807

Now, if you get a nice group together, sure, that's not too bad. But that's if you really focus on it, and try pretty hard. MOST clans, as far as I've seen, don't have 50% regular activity, and even if they do, you're assuming all active members actively try to get a really good high score. And the most inactive clans (aside from literally 100% inactive and abandoned ones) are usually groups of friends who just made a clan to get the benefits.

Wanna know how much of my shadow clan has logged in in the past week? I have a full shadow clan (downsized recently because of Hema research costs, and focused on only kicking people who hadn't logged in in 100+ days), of which 13 of our 30 members have logged in within the past 7 days. 2 of which were with my prompting to help with this. The 20th most recent login was a month and a half ago. I don't wanna kick people because life got in the way of game time, or even because they wanna play other things for a while. Hell, there's a lot of games coming out right now, so I really do understand why they wanna make sure they get time in on those before the next one comes out. To be fair, all of those 13 logins were within the past 2 days, meaning they all probably helped with the event. You know where we sit? 2,216. That means our average top score is ~170.

And all of that? That's before taking into account clans that are not full. Imagine a less than full clan, that also has a lower participation percentage than 50%, AND less desire to try super hard for high scores.

Say you had 15 people, you still have to upgrade to a shadow clan. Let's even still give the benefit of the doubt on a simple 50% participation statistic. 
half of 15, being generous is 8.
12.100 / 8 = ~1,513 for the average top score. 

According to your leaderboard, only your top 1300 players, ish, have achieved that kind of score, and that's not even accounting for how many of them are in the same clans.

That's a tiny portion of your playerbase. As far as I can tell, this is still blatantly unfair. And that's before we get into my last point....

Even though we are almost halfway into the event, let's look at how many points clans need for the "hardcore" tier, again, by your own leaderboards.

Huh, even assuming those scores TRIPLE by the end of the event, there's gonna be more clans obtaining the "hardcore" reward than the regular "victory" award. Let's do the math assuming they triple.

Moon:
107,180 x 3 = 321,540  Still less than the 403,000 needed for Victory tier.

Mountain:
31,200 x 3 = 93,600  Still less than the 121,000 needed for Victory tier.

Storm:
9,804 x 3 = 29,412  Still less than the 40,300 needed for Victory tier.

Shadow:
3,008 x 3 = 9,024  Still less than the 12,100 needed for Victory tier.

Ghost:
1,352 x 3 = 4,056 Just barely makes the 4,000 needed for Victory tier.

So you are, assuming scores triple, giving less than 10% of your players the Victory tier rewards, and notably closer to 10% of your players are getting the Hardcore tier. While I don't offhand know whether we can expect scores to rise that much, given the weekend will be over soon, I think that will be a good judge of it, since beyond that, things will probably slow down.

And while the top 10% of clan limit will go up, the question is how much, correct? Well, why don't we see how the #1 best clans in each category are doing, as well as where the limits stand for getting Hardcore tier. While the clans that are doing averagely well could improve to bring up the score, the top clans probably won't go up THAT much. I mean, most seriously dedicated clans have already found optimal strategies, done rallying attempts to get everyone to participate, etc. Again, we'll do this according to your own leaderboards, and using the same numbers above.

Looks like no moon clans are gonna get that 403k so far, even if more than the top 10 will attain Hardcore tier.

I guess one mountain clan will get 121k+ at least, though more than the top 30 (as far as your leaderboards go) will get the Hardcore tier. Also, that's a hell of a difference between 1st and second places.

I guess 3 storm clans will pass the 40,300 mark, though well beyong the top 100 (again, as far as your leaderboards go) will get the Hardcore tier. And again with the HUGE difference between 1st and 2nd.

Had to cut later, but I guess the top 40 shadow clans will manage it, though even well past the 300th best will get the Victory tier.

The top 299 ghost clans will attain Victory tier, though well past the top 1000 will get the Hardcore tier.

The numbers for Victory tier are unreasonable. If you cut them down by 2/3 (to 33% of their original value), you'd at least be giving some of the groups that mostly play socially a chance, while still asking them to work for it, though at the current rate of increase, that will probably still only be barely more than the 10% getting the Hardcore tier.

• (All leaderbaord stats were from a version of http://content.warframe.com/dynamic/pacifismDefect.php loaded at around 12:00 noon, Mountian time, 3/5/2017.)

Edited March 5, 2017 by KichiK
Adding more info. Also reduced redundancy.

[Maziani]

1 hour ago, KichiK said:

Huh, even assuming those scores TRIPLE by the end of the event, there's gonna be more clans obtaining the "hardcore" reward than the regular "victory" award.

.

.

.

 

The numbers for Victory tier are unreasonable. If you cut them down by 2/3 (to 33% of their original value), you'd at least be giving some of the groups that mostly play socially a chance, while still asking them to work for it, though at the current rate of increase, that will probably still only be barely more than the 10% getting the Hardcore tier.

Thank you for doing this math. This raises a good point about the disconnect between DE expectations of player behavior and actual player behavior.

I've bolded the sentence that really stood out for me.

I agree with your assessment and I think that's just sad; it also shows how inappropriate the thinking is (whoever is actually coming up with these numbers.)

 

 

 

Also, I'm pleased by the decision to lower the barrier to entry for the 'casual' reward. If not for the finding that the 'hardcore' reward is actually going to be given to more people than the 'victory' reward, I would have just accepted this concession and moved on.

 

I'm also pleased by the decision to add mutagen samples to the event. I hope that this is extended to somewhere else more permanent, or that mutagen samples are included in future event drop tables (and thus you can periodically boost play behavior by making mutagen samples more accessible for those attempting to climb Mount Hema.)

[KichiK]

18 minutes ago, Maziani said:

Thank you for doing this math. This raises a good point about the disconnect between DE expectations of player behavior and actual player behavior.

...

I'm also pleased by the decision to add mutagen samples to the event. I hope that this is extended to somewhere else more permanent, or that mutagen samples are included in future event drop tables (and thus you can periodically boost play behavior by making mutagen samples more accessible for those attempting to climb Mount Hema.)

I mean, I mostly just did it cause it felt really off to me. When I misread and thought those were cumulative totals, not "top score total" numbers, I had thought Well, that's manageable, but as soon as I realized my mistake, it basically became immediately apparent I may as well give up, and this was just me pointing out why. And I even realized, after porting that, a further issue that I've edited in about the amount of clans, according to DE'S own leaderboards, that are currently getting the Victory tier rewards.

I'm MR23, I've done just about everything this game has to offer, and while me and 3 buds MIGHT be able to do this together as a group in a ghost clan, it's just not even worth trying aside from that. I also realize DE cannot cater to me without frustrating my friends, and as a social gamer, this means by catering to me, and frustrating my friends to the point of giving up on the game, they'd lose me too. And trust me, with things like the Hema and this event, they're getting reeeeaaal close.

Personally, I think the greater solution to the Hema is to stop asking players for stupid amounts of resources for one-time builds, and retroactively lower the cost on existing ones. I KNOW the reason they did it was because they were hoping to give high-end players SOMETHING to use their resources on, but the current solution favors the hardcore players at the cost of anyone playing even semi-casually. If DE really wants to give players a way to spend all those resources they're building up cause they're out of things to build, I'd suggest some form of consumable. Preferrably something small, but enough to be worth spending resources that will otherwise lay around uselessly. If they offered an unlimited use BP that would let me spend 10k credits, and 1k each of alloy plate, salvage, ferrite, and nano spores to get a ten-pack of one-time-use sentinel respawners, you could safely bet money I'd funnel my resources into that. The energy/health/shield/ammo regen pads already see a ton of use from me, cause it's not like I'm using those resources elsewhere. If anything, the current implementation actually ENCOURAGES me to leave resources lying around, because of the fear that they'll release something that needs 500k of the just barely past 1mil alloy plate or something like that.

BUT that's neither here nor there. This is a thread about the update, so in discussion on that basis that relates that topic in, I say this event is a visible indicator of an ongoing trend of DE listening to the most vocal hardcore players at the expense of a huge portion of the rest of the player base. Casual players will probably not build all the weapons, like I have, but if they see the list of weapons that are currently available and want one, they should stand a reasonable chance of getting it without grinding for the amount of time some people spend on a real RPG's story.

Edited March 5, 2017 by KichiK
wording and adding a note about a further edit to the previous post.

[Dommino66]

partisipation reward should be personal reward based on a set contrabution twords clan score say 1k or above that would allow it to include all members of even inactive clans you try hard and put in the work you get the reward not you try hard put in the work and still get nothing as it is now

Edited March 5, 2017 by Dommino66

[KichiK]

6 minutes ago, Dommino66 said:

partisipation reward should be personal reward based on a set contrabution twords clan score say 1k or above that would allow it to include all members of even inactive clans you try hard and put in the work you get the reward not you try hard put in the work and still get nothing as it is now

Another good point I failed to mention. As is, this actively discourages active players from trying to help a mostly inactive, socially based clan, and rather, encourages them to jump ship and find a more active clan that has space left. As you said, someone trying to be cooperative and help those with less time/skill actively screws over their own chance to get rewards.

Edited March 5, 2017 by KichiK
grammar is a thing. Also clarifying wording.

[ShadowBroker-X11]

Please adjust the required points for victory tier, make it scale to active members. 

[8r8kSpider]

I don't even have anything to say that hasn't been covered by the users above. I'm Shogun of a Ghost clan that has been active since the Beta went public 3+ years ago and all this event is doing is actively punishing people for having Social clans instead of Game Hours based clans, and frankly; that's insulting.

I have literally spent 3700+ hours in this game, and this recent trend of punishing clans with inactive or briefly active players isn't encouraging anyone in my clan to get on and play- the people who are inactive in your game are inactive because of the excessive grind being discouraging.

I have had no less than *three* of my less-active members actively decline to help with the event because "sorry that just sounds too grindy", "that sounds like it isn't worth it".

You are not encouraging people to play your game, you're discouraging inactive players from coming back, and you are encouraging active players to leave, too. The frustration I felt at knowing my personal grind for the sake of my less active clan-mates meant nothing was nothing short of absolutely crushing.

 

For the record my personal best score is 1045, so this is not a case of me being "unable" and crying about it.

Edited March 6, 2017 by 8r8kSpider

[theraot]

I have got a message saying windows is running out of memory before the game crashing, this has happened twice already. Both in long sessions playing the pacifism defect.

Great way to get no points...

At least those messages suggest the game may have a leak, that needs fixing.

[Playboy187]

When is the Chroma deluxe skin coming ?!?

 

[Plasma_Panda]

"*New clans formed or newly joined members during the Operation will be eligible for this since this is the first time Clan presence is needed for an Operation Weapon."
 

does this mean that anyone i recruit during the event can contribute to the group total of mission 3 scores? i can't get a definite answer anywhere.

[BladeRambler]

2 hours ago, theraot said:

I have got a message saying windows is running out of memory before the game crashing, this has happened twice already. Both in long sessions playing the pacifism defect.

Great way to get no points...

At least those messages suggest the game may have a leak, that needs fixing.

I have received this error too. Twice now actually: once doing the first mission of the event, then a second while doing the third mission (on an endurance run). I got about 110 heavily-armed pacifists saved before the game started minimizing/crashing during the third mission. Game finally crashed right as I extracted and was stuck on the end-mission screen. Luckily I still got the credit, but this makes me think twice about trying a super long mission to boost my clan standing. Rig has 8GB of RAM and never had this problem before on long endless mission runs.

[djtotato]

1 hour ago, Plasma_Panda said:

"*New clans formed or newly joined members during the Operation will be eligible for this since this is the first time Clan presence is needed for an Operation Weapon."
 

does this mean that anyone i recruit during the event can contribute to the group total of mission 3 scores? i can't get a definite answer anywhere.

new joined will count towards participation rewards, not victory and hardcore.

[maddragonmaster]

can anyone make heads or tails with this right now my personal score is 288 and i am in a ghost clan so is that going to garentee me getting ignis wraith?

[Shade-Nightclaw]

If you use Atlas and cast his rumblers aka his 4th power during the event the game glitches and acts like they are objective markers, i am not sure if it does this in other maps but i figured id let you know

[FU_Fighter]

Hi!

I have finished the 3rd mission in the event, and wonder if i have enough to get the weapon..

The problem is that I`m alone to do this event in the clan.... can i still get the numbers right so i can get the weapon?

if so how much do i need. my current numbers are 3450/2000 

[Myscho]

4 minutes ago, FU_Fighter said:

Hi!

I have finished the 3rd mission in the event, and wonder if i have enough to get the weapon..

The problem is that I`m alone to do this event in the clan.... can i still get the numbers right so i can get the weapon?

if so how much do i need. my current numbers are 3450/2000 

In what clan tier you are ? And your Personal best is ?

Ghost Clans must earn: 260 Points. 
Shadow Clans must earn:  760 Points. 
Storm Clans must earn: 2,520 Points.
Mountain Clans must earn:  7,560 Points.
Moon Clans must Earn: 25,200 Points.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Myscho

[FU_Fighter]

Just now, Myscho said:

In what clan tier you are ?

Ghost Clans must earn: 260 Points. 
Shadow Clans must earn:  760 Points. 
Storm Clans must earn: 2,520 Points.
Mountain Clans must earn:  7,560 Points.
Moon Clans must Earn: 25,200 Points.

im in ghost clan... i just wonder what it takes to get the weapon with everything

 

[Myscho]

Just now, FU_Fighter said:

im in ghost clan... i just wonder what it takes to get the weapon with everything

 

You having Personal best 4000 pts

[FU_Fighter]

Just now, Myscho said:

You having Personal best 4000 pts

so i really need to save 4000 in one mission????

 

[Myscho]

Just now, FU_Fighter said:

so i really need to save 4000 in one mission????

 

Nope, only 1000, because in mission 3 is 1 kavor = 4 pts