The Second Stream Podcast: Mulling Melee, Clan comments, & other discussions!

[[DE]Drew]

Episode 11 was delayed due to the 72hour Charity Stream a couple weeks ago (details here: https://warframe.com/news/fan-channel-charity-stream), but we’re back now with a new recording for you to enjoy! We have a couple new guests from the Warframe community with us to discuss melee improvements, Clan greatness, and several other topics. Be sure to leave your comments on the Soundcloud link or in this thread!

Guests:

• Ceratia ( https://twitch.tv/ceratia )
• Hydroxate ( https://youtube.com/hydroxate )
• @NovusNova

 

Also available on iTunes & Google Music!

[Kylo.]

Ah nice, so there was a podcast \o/

[Kuestenjung]

If the Wraith would be recolorable, then you can just make them skins the next time.

[Darkvramp]

1 minute ago, Kuestenjung said:

If the Wraith would be recolorable, then you can just make them skins the next time.

yea it kinda makes no sense to have them as separate weapons when you can just tie the new stats to the skin and start a whole new issue on skins and stats.

[KIREEK]

Do you think Wraith items should be recolorable?

I think you should release a skin (pvp skin, event,.....) so that it can be applied to the wraith skin just like many ones that came before it, it should even give some incentive for players to play a certain thing like pvp, i played pvp for the skins and that help with the colorization of wraith weapons.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

fashion frame demands recolor 

[Forever_StorM]

Yay,more grindfest with mentally challenged AI bots,yo!

[taiiat]

2 - a mixture of interesting features to set it apart from other Equipment, and also a Stat theme that does make sure it is actually useful in Combat.
applies to all Weapons, not just Melee. unique traits are awesome. but don't forget that it should be a competent Weapon too!

3 - participation Rewards should require showing competence at the task presented, proving that you understand the features of it and can handle juggling what it wants you to.
but at the same time not requiring you be interested in diaper competitions. i've done my fair share of them, i know that they're not interesting for a lot of people.

6 - since they don't have their own Mesh, Wraith/Vandal Equipment only visually stands out because of the paintjob honestly... but at the end of the day so long as i do have the capability to retain the current looks they have if i desire, why not i guess.
though, can we have the materials for these updated for peanut butter? the metallic finishes could be.... shinier! :)

 

Edit:
comments on the topics covered:

Melee can always be more interesting, on both sides of the equation. even simple things can go a long way.

if lots of Players are highly inactive in a Clan - people don't have much to complain about. if your friend(s) only rarely play the game, then... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

gotta present information in a way that doesn't hide things to not get knee jerk that doesn't have all the facts. like uh, people play one Mission of Evactuation, then see that the third Mission requires 2000pts, and they think "wtf that's a s...load". but the second and third Mission actually multiply your scores.
why????????? it just adds extra complication to the numbers and hides information from Players. no offense but, with things like that, are you trying to confuse and frustrate Players? it's the same as always, gotta go to some Wiki or ask 20 people for information to know what the hell they're looking at. i manage fine because looking for information is something i just naturally do, but people shouldn't have to audit the game every step of the way to know what they should be doing or what's available.
lying by obfuscation is a thing. just avoid doing it.

it's very true that false opinions get spread around. not just in games, but everywhere.
hence why feedback shouldn't be so Politically Correct. just voting up or down doesn't say anything. if you can't give some sort of explanation WHY you feel that way, then your feedback isn't very useful. 
why do you like something? why don't you? do you like parts of it but not others? any ideas of what could make you like something more?
tl;dr you don't really like or dislike something if you can't actually explain why you do or don't. you don't need to write a scientific dissertation on a subject, just be able to explain your train of thought and to verify that you actually have an opinion.

 

also i'm obligated to say Rebeccas' song is terrible because banter & making fun of things is something i do. :^)

Edited March 6, 2017 by taiiat

[Krovakon]

People are actually voting to INCREASE the grind on the Participation rewards for clan events? Are you serious? Do you think people really enjoy doing the work of 10 people for a participation award?

Next thing you know they'll be releasing exclusive weapons that you have to PvP for and people will be singing praises of it.

 

PS: You do NOT want "tactical melee combat" from enemy AI. This amounts to DE creating some stupid gimmick where you can only deal damage during very specific animimation frames with specific types of damage and being horribly punished if you try to play normally. God forbid we get more sentient enemies where it's GG if you don't bring highly specialized loadouts designed entirely around defeating an annoying niche gimmick.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Krovakon
Additional content.

[drakegt]

I think itd be cool if the wraith/vandal weapons had some cool effect (like prisma). 

[AXCrusnik]

22 minutes ago, taiiat said:

2 - a mixture of interesting features to set it apart from other Equipment, and also a Stat theme that does make sure it is actually useful in Combat.
applies to all Weapons, not just Melee. unique traits are awesome. but don't forget that it should be a competent Weapon too!

This. Interesting mechanics means nothing if the weapon hits like it's made out of packing foam.

[Cray]

#4: Bit of a side-track, but I think this is relevant: It was a mistake to make the Ignis Wraith be dependent on clan scoring.

 

It is an explicitly personal reward, and is not tied to the clan in any way other than the fact that the members of said clan happen to have it. My ability to get an arsenal item from a time-limited event should not be dependent on whether or not the rest of my clan is interested in running it.

What's more, imagine this theoretical: We're both in a clan together. I don't like you, and want to make sure you can't get the pre-built ignis when our clan reaches that goal. So I kick you. Now, due to circumstances completely beyond your control, it is now impossible to get that tier of reward. And it's not enough to say "you were in the clan when this started, so you'll get it anyway", because I could, before we even know what the event is or what it will bring, simply kick you right before it starts.

Fortunately, there's an easy solution to all of this: Clan-participation rewards should be tied to the clan itself. See: Event statues, and now research. These are items that remain with the clan no matter what happens to the people within, and absolutely make sense as clan-participation rewards. For future events, I would look at finding ways to reward the clan itself, where players can only partake in said rewards so long as they remain in the clan.

Edited March 6, 2017 by DeltaPhantom

[Reidmaster]

10 minutes ago, DeltaPhantom said:

It was a mistake to make the Ignis Wraith be dependent on clan scoring.

Event statues, and now research. ...absolutely make sense as clan-participation rewards.

 

I completely agree with this.

[mirx]

More melee weapons with Physx >:D

[Eldnacpeek]

Holy Times New Roman

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

Honestly? The podcast was ok but the part where everyone was praising DE for always fixing broken stuff and errors was way too exaggerated. 

No, DE doesn't always fix stuff and change things, even when complete failures are acknowledged, like with Hema, for which we got apologies, hinted changes and then suddenly a "nope, everything's OK, it's raining in the Derelict". 

Do very bad behaviors like that from DE happen more than the opposite? Nope. 

When they happen are they very bad on purpose? Not really. 

Still, there's no reason to overreact as much as there's no reason to over praise, because both sound silly. 

Did DE fix the current event in the best way possible? Definitely, fast, direct and even had the icing on the cake(resources drop tables change). 

Just please, don't treat us like idiots with "hey it's DE, you're obviously overreacting because they always fix and change everything, you have no reason to voice your complaints", because it's simply as much exaggerated as complaining before testing and acting like DE never does something right. 

 

Sadly, I still feel like the podcast with Brozime and @theclinton was the only true objective one so far. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Sir_Alex_Traffo

[Synx-Synx]

Regarding the first question:

Do it, but not to parasitic eximi

They are just as bad as nulies

[kubbi]

I think clan events are a bad idea. I guess you guys want only full and active clans where everyone cooperates and everything. As a casual befriended with other casuals we prever events where we work for or own rewards. Thats all I have to say about it.

[Othergrunty]

1. Would you like an enemy or enemies who require more tactical melee combat?

Really depends on what is meant with "tactical melee combat" here.

The way i see it. Warframe at it's core is still a shooter with special abilities, with melee being a backup feature. Everything looks like it was shaped around the basis of it being a shooter. The environments, the enemy AI, the regular enemy designs, the bosses (how many bosses can be taken out purely by melee?), the controlls, etc. Wether intentional these days or not (since the devs appear to be actualy enthusiastic about melee stuff too), shooting the enemy or using powers against them is the core and melee is a secondary feature at best.

We now have things like combos, channeling, stances or finishers to make it more unique, but the very game feels like it refuses to make these viable compared to the good old ranged weapons. Well unless you abuse certain abilities or quirks in weapons (especialy slide attack spam).

There are so many enemies which downright punish you for trying to go into melee range against them. Like the ever so lovely knockdown attack in all it's flavors or some of the things eximus throw at you. Also the majority of enemies are shooting at you, so you have a situation where melee will only work as high risk/high reward attack if you use it normaly, but that's not often the case in Warframe.

Also as nice as the stances and their animations are, most of the time what a player needs is a simple melee attack that does an ideal job against a single enemy or several. All these flashy moves that certain combos have in stances might look great in an ideal scenario, like the test animations, but they often would rather fit a fighting game and not the quick and heated ranged combat of Warframe.

So "tactical melee combat" in my opinion should only ever be something simple, that works well into the flow of engaging enemies at range.

Like having enemies that are highly resistant to range damage unless you soften them up with melee strikes. But these should come with a situation where you aren't shot at by 10+ enemies at the same time too.

 

2. What interests you *most* about melee weapons?

Performance and design.

I might drop a good performing weapon if i don't like it's design. But i prefer a well functioning simple melee weapon over a very gimicky one that requires too many steps in order to get similar results.

For example i would welcome a good looking spear (with primarily stab attacks) over more weapons like the Mios.

 

3. In your opinion, how difficult should the participation reward(s) be to obtain in Clan Events?

There is that word again "Clan Events". Why is it suddently Clan Events, when it used to be just Events or better Community Events? The term Clan Events makes it sound like everyone else (who isn't in a full active clan) is just tollerated and not invited to participate. 

If Clans are now the focus of Events, at least allow non clanners or understaffed clans to form alliegance with "full" clans. So everyone feels like their participation is welcome.

Anyway. The major reward for everyone should require some good effort but nothing insanely power gaming.

 

4. In your opinion, how difficult should the competitive reward(s) be to obtain in Clan events?

Rather difficult. Requiring coordination, team effort, organization, etc.

However i also think they should be mostly to show off and not something that effects the game itself.

Statues. The names or logos displayed ingame (like on relays). Uniquely painted decorative bits. That kind of thing. Objects of prestige and not usefull ingame tools.

 

5. How much time do you think you'll spend using the "phot booth" feature?

Not a lot. I think i will mostly use it to inspect details on Warframes or enemies and do the occasional images for fun.

 

6. Do you think Wraith items should be recolorable?

I see Wraiths and Vandals primarily as trophies. So they should be marked as that. However if so many desire the performance boost (or in case of armor the objects itself) over the trophy element, perhaps allowing to slap the default skin on it would do the trick.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Othergrunty

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, AXCrusnik said:

This. Interesting mechanics means nothing if the weapon hits like it's made out of packing foam.

doesn't need to be (and for unique traits of the Equipment and unique traits of other Equipment to be relevant, shouldn't be) a planet cracker, either.

stats aiming for a theme, and reaching that point with some take/give mixture to be competent in Combat, but not feeling pointless or making everything else pointless either.

 

both ends of the Spectrum are boo, just as an example, Slug Mode on Euphoria Prime has entirely defeated the existence of almost every other Spike Damage Weapon in the game. 
or Glaxion aiming to be a debuff Weapon but having the one of the worst Ammunition Economy models in the game, and only being able to single target debuff, and having to work within the garbage Continuous Weapon model to apply Status to debuff (and not having enough unique debuff features to it), making for a complete failure as a piece of Equipment.
neither of that kind of stuff is helping things.

[Hydroxate]

1 hour ago, Sir_Alex_Traffo said:

Just please, don't treat us like idiots with "hey it's DE, you're obviously overreacting because they always fix and change everything, you have no reason to voice your complaints", because it's simply as much exaggerated as complaining before testing and acting like DE never does something right. 

It probably came off a bit different than what I was meaning. I meant that people overreacting at the launch of something before the dust has settled and hard info has become available need to wait a bit and see, not erupt into rioting. I get where you're your coming from, you can't just throw a blind eye and always have complete faith, but from previous experience I tend to have some trust!

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

24 minutes ago, Hydroxate said:

It probably came off a bit different than what I was meaning. I meant that people overreacting at the launch of something before the dust has settled and hard info has become available need to wait a bit and see, not erupt into rioting. I get where you're your coming from, you can't just throw a blind eye and always have complete faith, but from previous experience I tend to have some trust!

Thanks for replying and explaining your words. 

I think it's never easy, sadly, for both sides: think of the current event, even without the perfect knowledge of the actual mission mechanics a few started to riot about the score and who knows, maybe it was because of that fire being lit so fast that the changes came so quickly. 

Not saying DE would have left the event in the release state for too long(Hema is one of the worst pages in Warframe/DE's relationships with the players but luckily I don't remember many of that level in 4 years), but maybe they would have missed the Friday release and fixed it on Monday? No one can tell, but sometime the way things are fixed is directly related to how they are voiced and not always in the way you'd expect(constructive feedback=best DE response). 

I play this game since 4 years so the time when I was reacting before testing is(luckily) quite gone, which is funny because now my knowledge of the core mechanics could probably allow me to see things way before testing, but still that's not something I like to do!

The faith I have in DE is what keeps me considering Warframe my gaming home, supporting the game with money and doing regular giveaways, but to keep the faith real I have to keep on questioning and solving my doubts! 

Side note, I understand that being on a podcast is not easy; I consider myself a(way too) direct person, but I'm not sure how I would act if I was to have tête-à-tête with DE. My thoughts about the podcast are not to offend any of those who participated, I just would love to see those involved being as much objective as possible since they have the luck to represent us all. 

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Sir_Alex_Traffo

[Casardis]

3 hours ago, Kuestenjung said:

If the Wraith would be recolorable, then you can just make them skins the next time.

I don't see why making them recolorable would mean that they should simply be skins. Following your logic, all Prisma and Syndicate weapons should be made into skins instead of separate weapons.

Wraith and Vandals are meant to be stronger versions of some weapons, kind of like Syndicate weapons, Prisma weapons and even Prime in a way. While I dislike the idea of having so many versions of one weapon with different color tint channels, that's just how it is.

@DE: That being said, the non-recolorable aspect of these items, in my opinion, is a completely outdated artistic standard that DE kept to this day for some reason. Back then, IIRC, it had to do with its metallic texture treatment or something, similar to how Prime Gold used to be unrecolorable (which isn't the case anymore). However, with PBR treatment, the new skins, whether it's Tennogen skins, Syndicate skins, Prisma and so on, there's absolutely no reasonable arguments to keep this "tradition" the way it is.

If you want them to be "iconic," you simply have to make the texture and decals give that feeling, as you did with certain Syndicate weapons and Prisma weapons. The colors alone won't make them "iconic" at this stage of Warframe's development.

Please make them all recolorable. including Vandal weaponry.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Casardis

[AXCrusnik]

47 minutes ago, taiiat said:

doesn't need to be (and for unique traits of the Equipment and unique traits of other Equipment to be relevant, shouldn't be) a planet cracker, either.

stats aiming for a theme, and reaching that point with some take/give mixture to be competent in Combat, but not feeling pointless or making everything else pointless either.

 

both ends of the Spectrum are boo, just as an example, Slug Mode on Euphoria Prime has entirely defeated the existence of almost every other Spike Damage Weapon in the game. 
or Glaxion aiming to be a debuff Weapon but having the one of the worst Ammunition Economy models in the game, and only being able to single target debuff, and having to work within the garbage Continuous Weapon model to apply Status to debuff (and not having enough unique debuff features to it), making for a complete failure as a piece of Equipment.
neither of that kind of stuff is helping things.

Not advocating for power creep either, but playing with a nerf bat, even if it makes a cool noise and makes things you hit dance, is going to get old fast if nothing dies when you use it.

[(PSN)kaibloodedge1]

I would definitely love an enemy that makes you focus and use melee in a tactical way. I primarily use melee, since that is what's comfortable for me coming off of ARPGs and Musou style games. I was sad when i saw that there was no boss or field boss that made melee an absolute must. As a newer player getting used doing sorties and preparing to solo tier 4 void, i feel a tiny bit disappointed that there aren't many opportunities (besides choosing to go melee only) to test the combat style that i prefer.

Edited March 7, 2017 by (PS4)kaibloodedge1