Ferrox>Javlok = :(

[Mozer33]

So... the Ferrox looks rad and this is not a "nerf the Ferrox" thread at all. However it is a "buff the Javlok" thread. I feel like the Javlok deserves to be at least close to a side-grade, I may be mistaken but it looks like the 2 weapons aren't even close even though the Ferrox is sort of the Corpus counterpart. Can the Javlok get a little buffing? It could still have lower damage per shot and shoot faster but could it be brought up to be a little more in line? It seemed like the Javlok came out fairly recently, I went and forma'd it all up and got a riven for it that I rolled a lot to get it sweet and then it felt like it just got buried. Am I missing something with the overall damage output?  

[GreyDemon]

The javlok seems to have a great secondary throw while the ferrox's is lacking while the ferrox has a good primary damage while the javlocks is average. I think they have different focuses.

[Achromatic.]

The Ferrox has higher damage damage, higher crit stats, a quicker reload, and  nearly double the mag size of the Javlok.

Javlok definitely needs a boost if it wants to compete with the Ferrox. Javlok has higher status so I guess it's supposed to be the status-variant for spear-guns, but then why is its mag so low? I'm hoping they at least make the mag sizes and reload equal and give it some more damage.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Biter.

[StopherSylvia]

I would have to agree with the statement "Ferrox>Javlok", unfortunately.

While even as the weapons are I would still prefer Javlok over Ferrox, simply because I prefer status weapons (hence Daikyu being my fav bow). However, Javlok's primary fire is definitely lackluster in comparison with Ferrox's. Granted Javlok is a pure elemental weapon making its procs much more consistent and favorable, but because it is heat damage it can't get pure Viral damage nor pure Corrosive damage which would make its proc make up for the difference in dps. Granted I choose to go with Gas damage so the more targets I hit the more damage they all take, but against Sortie level Grineer high damage is superior to gas procs, hence a pure viral/corrosive build would make Javlok be a contender in the Speargun category, but it is not possible with a heat weapon so the its a moot point. While Javlok as AOE on its primary fire where as Ferrox does not (I assume) the radius is quite small making it more useful for not needing to be accurate versus making up for the low damage such as weapons like Ignis.

I am partial to agree that Javlok's secondary fire is superior, but if the pulling affect of Ferrox lingers after you reclaim the weapon then a punch through build on Ferrox would combine well enough with Ferrox's high damage to easyily kill a large group of enemies. I am not suggesting buffing Javlok to be the a gurranteed red crit and proc monster,  just somthing along the lines of increased damage or radius to try and compensate for the huge difference in Javlok and Ferrox's dps.

[Mozer33]

51 minutes ago, StopherSylvia said:

I would have to agree with the statement "Ferrox>Javlok", unfortunately.

While even as the weapons are I would still prefer Javlok over Ferrox, simply because I prefer status weapons (hence Daikyu being my fav bow). However, Javlok's primary fire is definitely lackluster in comparison with Ferrox's. Granted Javlok is a pure elemental weapon making its procs much more consistent and favorable, but because it is heat damage it can't get pure Viral damage nor pure Corrosive damage which would make its proc make up for the difference in dps. Granted I choose to go with Gas damage so the more targets I hit the more damage they all take, but against Sortie level Grineer high damage is superior to gas procs, hence a pure viral/corrosive build would make Javlok be a contender in the Speargun category, but it is not possible with a heat weapon so the its a moot point. While Javlok as AOE on its primary fire where as Ferrox does not (I assume) the radius is quite small making it more useful for not needing to be accurate versus making up for the low damage such as weapons like Ignis.

I am partial to agree that Javlok's secondary fire is superior, but if the pulling affect of Ferrox lingers after you reclaim the weapon then a punch through build on Ferrox would combine well enough with Ferrox's high damage to easyily kill a large group of enemies. I am not suggesting buffing Javlok to be the a gurranteed red crit and proc monster,  just somthing along the lines of increased damage or radius to try and compensate for the huge difference in Javlok and Ferrox's dps.

I haven't really used the secondary much on the Javlok tbh, it seems like sort of an overall output loss where reclaiming the weapon or even switching to secondary to wait for it creates too much of an interruption but I might just not be using it well. I think if anything the Javlok should have the bigger mag if it does less damage per shot and maybe add a physical dps type to it? Some impact would sort of fit with what the Grineer usually have but whichever, that or pump up the heat dps a bit. Another option might be reducing the cooldown on the Javlok alt-fire or even reducing the damage of the alt fire a lot and have it as a repeatable on a much shorter cooldown, meaning you wouldn't lose the weapon at all but the alt fire shots would take awhile, it would make it more interesting to be weaving in the alt fire with the main fire maybe, like it makes a cloud and then you lay in with main fire, it wouldn't really make sense to have it as a throw animation anymore, but a different fire mode. As it stands, it seems like straight powercreep on the part of the Ferrox more than anything right now and it bums me out. 

[Madkaris]

You can kill yourself with the primary fire mode of the Javlok... Unless you use it with a tanky frame.

[yles9056]

You can set Ember on fire with Javlok. That's the only reason why I'm using it.

[SprinKah]

5 hours ago, GreyDemon said:

The javlok seems to have a great secondary throw while the ferrox's is lacking while the ferrox has a good primary damage while the javlocks is average. I think they have different focuses.

 

it really doesn't...the Javlok secondary throw is able to kill you, it's slow and sometimes quite problematic to pull off, it deals like...30 more damage or so than the primary damage in a NOT-SO-IMPRESSIVE AoE.....and doesn't do much other than stagger nearby or knocking down A SINGLE enemy....also, it doesn't really come great in end-games like level 90-100 or so, if you throw one at the enemies, they'll stagger for like a second and maybe take out....1/4 of theri health bar then you'll have to come closer and take the thing and risk dying from their gunshots upclose.

 

The Ferrox HOWEVER...the thrown mecahnic despite having only 10% status....it doesn deal PURE ELEC damage which is quite good for statuses, you can maybe get to like 40% status, building for COrrosive+Heat or so, a bit of CC and damage (150 damage is pretty damn good, considering it has gradual armor-stripping corrosive procs ).

It can also TETHER enemies which is way better than staggering enemies for a second or so....

 

so yes...the Javlok's thrown mechanic is quite broing, risky and isn't really THAT effective and practical, not every good CC also...

let's not forget the fact that the Ferrox has higher crits, higher damage, higher magazine size and faster reload speed. the 10% status is quite bad but I mean....with its high damaging crits, I don't know if that'd mean anything at all...I do prefer status over crit but you get what I mean...

[._.-._.]

this is why derim zahn's weapon choice

[(PSN)lhbuch]

wet noodle > Javlok

[LascarCapable]

I remind that Javlok can fire more than twice as fast than the Ferrox. The Javlok is still fairly effective. Especially if you are able to use the throwing attack smartly. Yes, Ferrox has much more physical damage. But look at the fire rate. Meanwhile, Ferrox's thrown attack won't instantly kill anything, so when playing with friends you're better out with another weapon.

[Eldnacpeek]

21 hours ago, StopherSylvia said:

While Javlok has AOE on its primary fire where as Ferrox does not (I assume)

No AoE, but Ferrox has innate punch through on its primary fire, still making it superior to Javlok's outside of Status.

8 hours ago, D20 said:

I remind that Javlok can fire more than twice as fast than the Ferrox. The Javlok is still fairly effective.

You said it yourself; "fairly". With a mediocre magazine and painfully slow reload, I personally don't find the fire rate of all things to compensate those (given you're likely going to be emptying the magazine faster and facing the reload frequently) or any of the Javlok's flaws. But this is just me though.

Edited March 10, 2017 by LazerSkink
Moot point removed

[yles9056]

58 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

It doesn't though. The primary fire is really deceiving, only giving off the appearance of a wide AoE projectile, but in actuality being single target. It also has a range cap while Ferrox doesn't.

It does have AoE. It was added in Hotfix 19.11.5

Changes:

• Javlok's projectile collision size has been increased, making it easier to land hits while also dealing 50 Heat AoE damage in a 1.6m radius.

 

But it's currently bugged and missing.

Edited March 10, 2017 by yles9056

[SprinKah]

1 hour ago, LazerSkink said:

It doesn't though. The primary fire is really deceiving, only giving off the appearance of a wide AoE projectile, but in actuality being single target. It also has a range cap while Ferrox doesn't.

No AoE, but Ferrox has innate punch through on its primary fire, still making it superior to Javlok's outside of Status.

You said it yourself; "fairly". With a mediocre magazine and painfully slow reload, I personally don't find the fire rate of all things to compensate those (given you're likely going to be emptying the magazine faster and facing the reload frequently) or any of the Javlok's flaws. But this is just me though.

 

recently DE DID add a 1.20 m or something AoE on the Primary attack....but deals only 50 damage though.

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, yles9056 said:

It does have AoE. It was added in Hotfix 19.11.5

Changes:

• Javlok's projectile collision size has been increased, making it easier to land hits while also dealing 50 Heat AoE damage in a 1.6m radius.

 

But it's currently bugged and missing.

 

Didn't catch that, thanks. 

[The_Splentforcer]

maybe they shall increase a bit the raw damage of the javlok, increase a bit that AoE feat for the primary fire and a damage buff + a radius increase for the secondary thing, so the secondary is worth to throw

 

Ferron : fixing the alt fire......god damn !

 

but i prefer having status with some crit chance, but if only javlok had more damage...

[Zaamel]

Not sure if it's intended or not, but I noticed today that the Javlok's primary fire now deals self damage as well, making it possible to oneshot yourself if an enemy happens by just as you fire it.

[Colyeses]

10 minutes ago, Zaamel said:

Not sure if it's intended or not, but I noticed today that the Javlok's primary fire now deals self damage as well, making it possible to oneshot yourself if an enemy happens by just as you fire it.

They really, really need to quit doing that. It's the primary reason why you generally don't want to use the Zarr's cannon mode or the Javlok's secondary fire. It's just too much of a drawback, being able to OHKO yourself if it snags on an unpredictable hitbox.

It needs to be changed to a knockdown, rather than a OHKO.

[Kainosh]

I dont have Ferrox yet....But i agree that Javlok need a buff. And not its primary fire, but SECONDARY.

   I mean...Direct hit with that explosive metal spear hits weaker than Paris arrows.  And considering how slow the "retrieval" can be... Meh.  

I think that if weapon have only ONE "bullet" per "mag" , it should pack a serious punch.  Explosion should deal minimum 500 damage....  And it should ragdoll and drag alive enemies on direct hits, releasing them after explosion.

 

 

[StopherSylvia]

Ok so after maxing Ferrox I can now say from experience, Ferrox > Javlok

While I still prefer Javlok that is simply because I prefer status over effectiveness (aka I am keeping it for entertainment purposes only).

Ferrox is essentially a (as stated before) power creep over Javlok, while Javlok has a reliable status chance, it matters not, because Ferrox's dps is so much higher. While Javlok's fire rate is higher it still lacks enough crit/basedamage to out damage Ferrox. I would argue against some others on this thread in saying that Javlok should NOT have physical damage added because it would hinder the proc rate of its elements, thus hurting the weapon's one upside

On 3/9/2017 at 4:48 PM, Mozer33 said:

Javlok should have the bigger mag if it does less damage per shot and maybe add a physical dps type to it? Some impact would sort of fit with what the Grineer usually have

1

Also while Javlok has a faster fire rate and AOE on the primary fire, the problem is Punch through is handier than AOE. Which anyone can see by going to a low level mission with Ogris and shooting enemies directly vs Lanka shooting through enemies, Lanka comes out on top because of the punch through as enemies are more often in a line then in a group. Obviously this is less true with the infested but still, that is 1 of the 4 main factions (Grineer, Corpus, Infested, Orokin/Corrupted).

As for the throwing of Javlok being hindering that is true, to an extent. Javlok's throw is better saved for 5+ enemies close enough together that you could throw javlok and kill them all, but Javlok's throw is its strongest attack which is hindering because it is not repeatable at a reliable rate in order to compensate for the difference between Javlok in general versus Ferrox's primary fire.

[majorcakey]

On 09/03/2017 at 10:47 PM, Mozer33 said:

So... the Ferrox looks rad and this is not a "nerf the Ferrox" thread at all. However it is a "buff the Javlok" thread. I feel like the Javlok deserves to be at least close to a side-grade, I may be mistaken but it looks like the 2 weapons aren't even close even though the Ferrox is sort of the Corpus counterpart. Can the Javlok get a little buffing? It could still have lower damage per shot and shoot faster but could it be brought up to be a little more in line? It seemed like the Javlok came out fairly recently, I went and forma'd it all up and got a riven for it that I rolled a lot to get it sweet and then it felt like it just got buried. Am I missing something with the overall damage output?  

I dont mean to be horrible about this so if it comes across that way i am sorry....

But just because thegame has a new weapon that makes your old weapon feel less useful doesnt mean you old weapon needs a buff.... you managed really well till this point with it and now there is something new you feel what cheated?

Weapons do have different stats and roles javlock is fire and blast(?) and has a nice secondary throw and explosive balls, ferros fills a similar role to the opticor, a corpus bow, but has lower damage faster fire and more crit but alt fire is a kinda weak cc. 

if they fell to your demand or everyones demands, when this happens all our gear would be the same, skins which do the same damage. Because people would say, for example, my latron prime doesnt do as much dps as his boltor prime so it needs a buff ... it doesn't, if a weapon needs a buff it when its not fufilling its intend role, in the eyes of dev and community. but in this case you are compairing a cucumber to a baguette, both used to make a sandwich and both long and thin but you wouldnt use a cucumber to make footlong hotdog as bread and vica versa.

Edited March 16, 2017 by majorcakey
typo

[Mozer33]

On 3/16/2017 at 3:42 AM, majorcakey said:

I dont mean to be horrible about this so if it comes across that way i am sorry....

But just because thegame has a new weapon that makes your old weapon feel less useful doesnt mean you old weapon needs a buff.... you managed really well till this point with it and now there is something new you feel what cheated?

Weapons do have different stats and roles javlock is fire and blast(?) and has a nice secondary throw and explosive balls, ferros fills a similar role to the opticor, a corpus bow, but has lower damage faster fire and more crit but alt fire is a kinda weak cc. 

if they fell to your demand or everyones demands, when this happens all our gear would be the same, skins which do the same damage. Because people would say, for example, my latron prime doesnt do as much dps as his boltor prime so it needs a buff ... it doesn't, if a weapon needs a buff it when its not fufilling its intend role, in the eyes of dev and community. but in this case you are compairing a cucumber to a baguette, both used to make a sandwich and both long and thin but you wouldnt use a cucumber to make footlong hotdog as bread and vica versa.

Hi, I don't think disagreeing with me would make you "horrible", so no offense taken. However, I do feel you are creating a straw man argument out of my original post, which was specifically about the perceived imbalance between the only two spear/gun type weapons in the game, which were diametrically opposed based on their faction origins and released in short order of each other. Extrapolating what would happen if the devs actually took my complaint into consideration, as to how it would affect other balancing choices is just that - pure extrapolation, arguably somewhat dramatic extrapolation at that. They have buffed other weapons and frames before without everyone's stuff being homogenized by it. I am not entirely sure if you are concerned the the ferrox might get nerfed with complaints like mine, I can't see why a buff to the javlok would bother anyone but if that is the case, also, please re-read the original post, I only would like the javlok buffed. I didn't say I felt cheated, that is also an extrapolation. I was petitioning the developers, on the "feedback" forum, with my feedback on a weapon, in comparison to another weapon. I would argue that the javlok and ferrox are also much more similar thematically (to make balancing in context to each other more sensible) than the latron and boltor and that the ferrox and opticor are much more different although, that is my opinion. Thanks for your feedback on my feedback and for taking the time to read it. however I still feel the same way.  

[taiiat]

realistically Javlok is already quite encroaching on Bows and Sniper Rifles for precision Spike Damage, and Ferrox goes higher than that.
Ferrox presents itself as an outlier in that regard. the Crit Damage is a bit too good to be true.

On 3/9/2017 at 7:48 PM, Mozer33 said:

and maybe add a physical dps type to it?

why would you want to ruin a perfectly good Elemental Status Weapon by adding IPS into the Damage Types? why would you want to get non useful Status Types instead of the useful ones you get now?

unless your plan is to make it a dedicated Slash Status Weapon but that is clearly not the theme of the Weapon.

On 3/13/2017 at 8:03 AM, Kainosh said:

I mean...Direct hit with that explosive metal spear hits weaker than Paris arrows.

I think that if weapon have only ONE "bullet" per "mag" , it should pack a serious punch.  Explosion should deal minimum 500 damage....  And it should ragdoll and drag alive enemies on direct hits, releasing them after explosion.

???
1192 Base Damage with a 4.4x Multiplier?

if i skip Resistance Multipliers...
Paris Prime double Weakpoint Crits for 32,560
Javlok direct hits on a throw without a Weakpoint Crit for 25,710.3
Javlok direct hits on a throw with a Weakpoint Crit (assuming only the Spear gets a Weakpoint Crit, not the Explosion) for 34,280.4

and Javlok gets to have a 55% pure Elemental Status Chance, at the same time. (70% in my Loadouts but you're aiming towards Damage so one less Status Elemental and one more 90% Elemental)

you say minimum 500 Damage, it's already 450, with Crit Stats. the Crit Chance isn't as high for sure, but Damage capability is effectively the same.
i'm not sure how i feel about the Spears taking the Enemies with them, as that would make retrieving them more difficult/time consuming.

[Mozer33]

12 hours ago, taiiat said:

realistically Javlok is already quite encroaching on Bows and Sniper Rifles for precision Spike Damage, and Ferrox goes higher than that.
Ferrox presents itself as an outlier in that regard. the Crit Damage is a bit too good to be true.

On 3/9/2017 at 5:48 PM, Mozer33 said:

and maybe add a physical dps type to it?

why would you want to ruin a perfectly good Elemental Status Weapon by adding IPS into the Damage Types? why would you want to get non useful Status Types instead of the useful ones you get now?

unless your plan is to make it a dedicated Slash Status Weapon but that is clearly not the theme of the Weapon.

The point (and title) of the post was comparing the javlok to the ferrox, not the javlok to bows, or the ferrox to bows or any other weapons. There are two spear/gun weapons in the game, the second one released seemed to be powercreepy in comparison to the first one. The paris prime has lagged behind for awhile, and if you want to really get into the weeds, you might as well add shotguns and how they are eclipsing bow dps, I would call the tigris prime a precision weapon. Maybe bows need an overhaul, which would be a different thread.

The physical dps suggestion was a thought, meant to provide something constructive to the critique, if my intention was to "ruin" the weapon, I would suggest that they reduce dps and convert it entirely to impact... The reason I suggested impact was just that, it is not a very desirable damage type, which would make it a modest proposal, instead of something like slash. On a side note, if you want slash to fit the theme, just write something like "the javlok fires superheated shrapnel", it's a high sci-fi fantasy game, with a lot of room for explanations.

Sniper rifles don't seem to be very effective compared to anything tbh, so I think you could argue that a lot of things encroach on their territory. Maybe if stuff within the scope was slowed or something? 

[Kainosh]

11 hours ago, taiiat said:

realistically Javlok is already quite encroaching on Bows and Sniper Rifles for precision Spike Damage, and Ferrox goes higher than that.
Ferrox presents itself as an outlier in that regard. the Crit Damage is a bit too good to be true.

why would you want to ruin a perfectly good Elemental Status Weapon by adding IPS into the Damage Types? why would you want to get non useful Status Types instead of the useful ones you get now?

unless your plan is to make it a dedicated Slash Status Weapon but that is clearly not the theme of the Weapon.

???
1192 Base Damage with a 4.4x Multiplier?

if i skip Resistance Multipliers...
Paris Prime double Weakpoint Crits for 32,560
Javlok direct hits on a throw without a Weakpoint Crit for 25,710.3
Javlok direct hits on a throw with a Weakpoint Crit (assuming only the Spear gets a Weakpoint Crit, not the Explosion) for 34,280.4

and Javlok gets to have a 55% pure Elemental Status Chance, at the same time. (70% in my Loadouts but you're aiming towards Damage so one less Status Elemental and one more 90% Elemental)

you say minimum 500 Damage, it's already 450, with Crit Stats. the Crit Chance isn't as high for sure, but Damage capability is effectively the same.
i'm not sure how i feel about the Spears taking the Enemies with them, as that would make retrieving them more difficult/time consuming.

Wat? 1192?  Its base throw damage is 150 (phys).  Standart Paris bow deals 180.  You get hit by metal spear - 150. You get hit by arrow - 180.   Crit is nearly same.  And there is no need to pick up Paris arrows.

Thats pretty simple. I dont know what 4x multipliers are you talking about....     Their crit mults are same.

I mean...Spear is bigger and heavier that arrow. It should deal MORE physical damage.  Even if its not that sharp and penetrating.

Explosion is a different story.  It only triggers when surface is hit. Means you cant headshot with BOTH phys part and explosion most of the time....i doubt its even possible.

 

I say minimum 500 because of Lanka.  525 damage and fires MUCH faster than one can throw Javlok repeatedly.  Pure elem and status/crit swag. 

I want Javlok throw to at least do as much as a SINGLE Lanka bullet .    Considering that its throw is not affected by multishot....Unlike Lanka bullets.... You know.  Javlok throw is lame.