BiG CLANS HAVE NO FUTURE

[-VV-ODiN]

As title say: BiG CLANS HAVE NO FUTURE.

 Give me one reason why we (Vice/warlords) should continue to take care about high tier clan. We spent more time with recruiting, farming rare resource for insame cost of newest Weapon´s researches and recently boosting event´s score to get permanent Ignis wraith bp for our dojo, then regular playing for fun. Would be much easier take my best hardcore buddies and start new Ghost clan, because low Dojo´s prices + we can easily get high score in endgames for leaderboards.

 A Ghost CLAN need ONLY 5k mutagen mass for finish Hema research, after 8 weeks we (a Mountaine clan) are still 133K/150k.  A Ghost clans need 3 synthulas for each Stim, they got it in a single full squad run alert, we finished it near end of event...

DOJO RESEARCH IS ABSOLUTELY UNFAIR, we are not in equal situacion.
 In my opionin the cost should be the same, from the begin, no matter what TiER of clan, we are.
 Imagen there is a new dojo´s weapon called "Hema wraith", inicial research would be the same for Ghost/Moon clan, none rare resource necessary. When lab´s research is over, each clan´s member will be able access to it. In the moment to copy it, everyone would have to exchaneg BP for mutagen mass, First clanie would need 1k mut. mass, second 990, third 980 and so on. Cost would decrease, high tier clan would get advantage, because  - when 999 clanies already have BP/weapon "for hight knowledge" last clanie will get it only for 10 mut.mass. On another side Last Ghost clan´s member would have to pay 910 mut.mass "general knowledge of weapon is low", it never be less, because clan´s maximum is 10 members.

 In another words: if clan is a "house" and BP a "book-manual how craft weapon", WHY "big family living in big house" - high tier MOUNTAINE/MOON clan, HAVE TO PAY 30x/100x MORE, then other "smaller family living in small house"- lower tier GHOST clan, for the same book-BP!?

 The reason, why correct High tier Clan´s managment is NIGHTMARE.
We Vice/Warlords dont have tools to quick check clanies activity.
There are few classes of clanies: hardcore, casuals, long AFK and leechers. Hadcore - love game and spend a lot of hours with collecting and leveling, casuals - dont have time for hardcore, long AFK - quite game or just chill out and leeches. Leeches join clan only for copy BPs or to get free stuff from other clanies. 

Bigger clan = more clanies = more problems. 

 Personaly Im happy to help to every ACTIVE clanies (EXCEPT of leeches) with: Hosting taxi, give guide, explaine warframe abilities, usual go setups and give free basic "must have mods" (flow, continuity etc.). We should have a tool which would retrict to copy certaine BPs, inside Clan rank would allow or not copy particular (marked) BPs. LAST LOGGED ON detect AFKs, only. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The unbalanced research system failure came here, when DE introduce rare drop resource. None of our veterans with near 4k hours time played, had  big stock of mutagen mass...  hardcore ppls should be able get  BP fast, no matter what tier clan they are in, and leeches should not be able to leech only. 

When I wrote this post, about new research system, I went little bit fareway only for call the attencion.

Most fair would be:

 "Hema wraith", inicial research - the same for Ghost/Moon clan, none rare resource necessary. When lab´s research is over, each clan´s member will be able access to it. In the moment to copy it, everyone will exchange the BP for 500 mutagen mass. No matter what clan tier they are or how many members they have: (Ghost/Moon clan or 1-1000). Current system is "500 per each" so be it... It will be pretty fair SELF REGULATED SYSTEM.

From  my experience, I can´t blame clanies who have no Hema - mutagen mass farm on their top list, because they need get other BPs, first. On another hand IS NOT FAIR if other clanies, who want BP badly, are forced to farm 10x (5k+) mut. mass..

We can see many WTS Ignis wraith bp on trade chat, now. I check some trader´s profile, few of them has 0 event point. So they didn´t contribuite for top 10%, they leech Ignis BP and now they are making PL!? You have to be kidding! With the system I propose, those who want sell BP, will have to work on get those 500 mut.mass for each extra BP...

Everyone will get what deserve.

ODiN (-VV-Warlord)

Edited March 23, 2017 by -VV-ODiN
"system failure"+"final fair research" added

[chofranc]

Yeah, bigger clan are a headache to manage, the last year we were thinking on turn our clan into moon clan but we never did it because of that, is difficult to manage to much players successfully and require too much time and effort, with hema research cost we finally downgraded our clan to shadow clan to reduce its research cost, that and because most of our clanmates began to left the game or connect less often after the relics update or they began to lose interest in the game because of the lack of "durable" content.

Edited March 10, 2017 by chofranc

[SolarDwagon]

Basically, the new changes mean that if you want to stay competitive, you downsize to fit actives and actives only.

[ChuckMaverick]

22 minutes ago, SolarDwagon said:

Basically, the new changes mean that if you want to stay competitive, you downsize to fit actives and actives only.

Hardly.

Based on the recent event, 20-50% full and active for your tier is enough.

[SolarDwagon]

8 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Hardly.

Based on the recent event, 20-50% full and active for your tier is enough.

If you want to stay competitive, you need 25-50% of your cap to be PROPERLY active more or less. Which means that realistically you need to be full of "actives"

[Chipputer]

Managing a large group of people is more difficult than a small one?

Alert the presses!

[Mk.1]

I hate to sound harsh but; drop the dead weight. I'm not going to say the clan system is perfect, or even great, but for the time being, having at least 75-80% of your clan be active is the best way to be successful. Most of the clans that complain about any new clan tech/event are Moon and Mountain clans, because your ratio of Active to Inactive players is so skewed that it's near impossible to achieve certain things. Using the Hema as an example, it required only 500 Mutagen from each player. The problem is that these big clans have a high number of inactive players and because of that, the active ones have to compensate and suffer. I left my old Moon clan and intead made my own Ghost clan with active friends and it's been a great decision so far. I'm not saying that's what everyone should do, but do try to keep that 75-80% active ratio no matter your clan size. 

[Radagosh]

I once managed a moon clan now I'm down to storm and with the upcoming operations I and my clanies were thinking of downsizing again. DE punishes big clans by thinking they are 100% full and 100% of the members are active and contribute to the clan.

DE atleast give us warlords some ability to see who contributes, especially during events, so that we can get rid of leeches. Personally, I didnt mind those people before but with this event and the upcoming operations I might just punish a lot of casual players because I cant differentiate them of the unhelpful leeches.

[CoffeePoweredGenocide]

These systems are one of the oldest in warframe, DE made it like this just to nerf the 8K players clans that once existed, those clanes were the only one with people, obviously,  that was bad for the game.

But today these systems became obsolete De should fix it soon, hopefully,  they will in this "year of clans" for instance they have to give management tools, like bots, to help you remove people that are afk forever, and more information in player's profiles that let you know their clan history, exist in warframe the bp ninjas, they join clans with new updates to get the bp and then they leave, and that suck.

DE give more tools... About the cost of big clans, when you are in a clan, the resources costs are calculating by how many players the max capacity is, by example hema research is 500 mutagen mass per players, so for 10 players clan is 5000 but Moutain 300x500= 150k. to make more clear if you are in a clan and the cost is calculate counting the players your max capacity is, it should auto deduce the resources from the clanmate inventory, not let him decide, this way you know that when you join a clan you have to contribute.

If the player doesn't have the resources, then the systems allow the rest of clanmates to decide if they wanna add an extra. when players that didn't have enough resources, want the get the bp from the lab, they have to pay their debt with the clan, and that amount of resources goes to the clan inventory. Also,  the cost should be calculated not under the clan's max capacity but from how many recruits you have, But this is something not that easy to grasp like what I say before, it opens other questions and it will break the competition mode of the game, so lets leave this matter for other topics.

Is an easy solution, but I don't think it will be implemented, DE is too focused in make good the new players experience, and I can understand and respect that, the game industry is a cruel world and they have to survive.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by -VV-mago_de_muerte
typo

[CoffeePoweredGenocide]

16 minutes ago, Mk_1 said:

I hate to sound harsh but; drop the dead weight. I'm not going to say the clan system is perfect, or even great, but for the time being, having at least 75-80% of your clan be active is the best way to be successful. Most of the clans that complain about any new clan tech/event are Moon and Mountain clans, because your ratio of Active to Inactive players is so skewed that it's near impossible to achieve certain things. Using the Hema as an example, it required only 500 Mutagen from each player. The problem is that these big clans have a high number of inactive players and because of that, the active ones have to compensate and suffer. I left my old Moon clan and intead made my own Ghost clan with active friends and it's been a great decision so far. I'm not saying that's what everyone should do, but do try to keep that 75-80% active ratio no matter your clan size. 

 

In our clan, we don't have inactive players they get drop like you say, but there are others that simply don't contribute and you cannot know who those are.

[Mk.1]

1 minute ago, -VV-mago_de_muerte said:

In our clan, we don't have inactive players they get drop like you say, but there are others that simply don't contribute and you cannot know who those are.

It would be nice if there was some system to show how much you have contributed to the clan.

[-VV-ODiN]

1 hour ago, Mk_1 said:

I hate to sound harsh but; drop the dead weight. I'm not going to say the clan system is perfect, or even great, but for the time being, having at least 75-80% of your clan be active is the best way to be successful. Most of the clans that complain about any new clan tech/event are Moon and Mountain clans, because your ratio of Active to Inactive players is so skewed that it's near impossible to achieve certain things. Using the Hema as an example, it required only 500 Mutagen from each player. The problem is that these big clans have a high number of inactive players and because of that, the active ones have to compensate and suffer. I left my old Moon clan and intead made my own Ghost clan with active friends and it's been a great decision so far. I'm not saying that's what everyone should do, but do try to keep that 75-80% active ratio no matter your clan size. 

Is not the same coordinate 10 man army, as coordinate 300 man army. If nothink change, We may see many Ghost´s clan and none or few High Tier clans in future.

Its quite funny to hear from you "try to keep..." , you are living example of what Im trying to say with " BiG CLANS HAVE NO FUTURE "...

Edited March 11, 2017 by -VV-ODiN

[TrollmeisterXD]

Honestly, I think the higher Research Costs are completely justifiable. I don't have the exact resource Numbers you need for researching stuff but, if you have a Clan that can have 10 players Max and a Clan that can have 100 players Max the Cost for the Research should be higher than the smaller Clan. Because every Player who wants Weapons should do something to get them, maybe the Cost shouldn't be a 1:1 Scaling Factor to calculate in some AFK or Casual Members. But well in my opinion everyone in a Clan should be actively trying to research new Items, thats what the Clan is for right now. If you got Leeches and longtime AFKs or Casuals then you have the Options to just ignore the fact that they are not Contributing or ask them to Contribute ... or well if its unbearable kick them and get new active Members. But you guys are right, the Clanleaders need some Sort of Insight in the Resource flow thats happening in the Dojo, we have to see who puts in efford and who doesn't. Otherwise its impossible to filter out whos just a parasitic Member.

[-VV-ODiN]

If Ghost clan´s cost is 1, Mountain is 30x, Moon 100x ...

My point is everyone should get what deserve: Hardcore ppls should be able to get BPs fast and leeches never. No matter - what clan´s tier you are. 

Current reaseach system put in disadvantage big clans, because those rare resources.

 

[ChuckMaverick]

On 10/03/2017 at 11:22 PM, -VV-ODiN said:

Is not the same coordinate 10 man army, as coordinate 300 man army.

If a single warlord is trying to coordinate an entire moon clan personally, then they're doing it wrong.

Delegation becomes increasingly important as the size of your clan grows.

[-VV-ODiN]

@ TrollmeisterXD,  @ ChuckMaverick

We do have Vicewarlords team here... I see from your profiles you are both in Ghost clan. I appreciate your opinions, but until you dont put yourself in my shoes, you wont fully understand what Im taking about.

You said " the higher Research Costs are completely justifiable .." what if there would be also second side of coins, lower tier - longer time for research/build, will that be justifiable?

I could understand, if a new dojo room has slightly higher cost, because power plant or similar, for high tiers clan. But to pay 30x/100x! MORE for the same piece of BP "tecnology", doesn´t enter to my logic.

To upgrade a clan should mean an advantage, some extra stuff (more decoration, diferent - better badges - acording tier etc.). The Upgrade system "from a village" - Ghost clan to "a capital city" - Moon clan have many games (strategy, RPG..). Every warlords-clan goal would be grow up. Current system of latest researches put us in huge disadvantage situacion.

I dont intend to put small clan to worst conditions, I only ASK TO BE IN THE SAME condition for all clans.

Edited March 13, 2017 by -VV-ODiN

[ChuckMaverick]

13 minutes ago, -VV-ODiN said:

@ TrollmeisterXD,  @ ChuckMaverick

We do have Vicewarlords team here... I see from your profiles you are both in Ghost clan. I appreciate your opinions, but until you dont put yourself in my shoes, you wont fully understand what Im taking about.

I'm the warlord of a small clan in Warframe, but I have run large guilds in several other games (for some reason I always seem to find myself running whatever guild/clan I join or start in most games), so I understand that position completely.

Edit: Including running a Heroic raiding guild in WoW, which involves way more coordination than any current Warframe clan activity.

Edited March 13, 2017 by ChuckMaverick

[--RV--D4VE-]

On 12.03.2017 at 2:01 AM, -VV-ODiN said:

If Ghost clan´s cost is 1, Mountain is 30x, Moon 100x ...

My point is everyone should get what deserve: Hardcore ppls should be able to get BPs fast and leeches never. No matter - what clan´s tier you are. 

Current reaseach system put in disadvantage big clans, because those rare resources.

 

My question is: why all out of sudden now it's a burden? The system been there for ages and it was fine back then and now? Sure, hema cost was harsh - but it was harsh for everyone - Ghost clan 5000 mut sample (most ghost clans as solo ppl) - that's harsh but still it falls under same rules as it did 2 years ago. Idk, maybe you are just salty tht you didnt get in the 10%?

No one said managing a clan with 300, 1000 ppl is easy. It's like being manager of a company. A warlord give work to vicewarlords and they to officers and so on. If your doing it all alone, you will get easily overflowed with work and messages and sht, and also like in a company - the ones that arent productive - get fired - that's how it is and how's it gonna be always. 

[-VV-ODiN]

@--RV--D4VE-

would be nice to know opinion some of your Vice/warlord, because you are not able to see whole picture. Your clan finished Hema research after near 10weeks, but propably you didn´t even notice, it is not in your arsenal (that may mean: - you didn´t contribuite or you are a casual - who doesn´t care)...

You mencioned this system has been here for years, "why change?"..

We have been using old starmap in past, aren´t we? why change?... that is call evolution.

The unbalanced research system failure came here, when DE introduce rare drop resource. None of our veterans with near 4k hours time played, had  big stock of mutagen mass...

Research system need update, hardcore ppls should be able get  BP fast, no matter what tier clan they are in, and leeches should not be able to leech only. 

DE will fix it soon or later, otherwise  BiG CLANS HAVE NO FUTURE

PS: we did top 10%

 

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by -VV-ODiN

[-VV-Phantom-Phoenix]

I kinda don't mind the high research prices tbh. It's not like i have any use for my resources, it's just there doing nothing.

I'll gladly donate my resources to the clan, just the other day I donated all my donite ampules to do the ignis wraith research. Sadly my updating was slightly slow and someone got the ferrox before me.

I don't even mind the hema really, I donate all my mutagen samples and to my surprise it still needed a lot more but it was a pleasant surprise. A goal for the clan to farm which hasn't really been a thing since farming purple. At this point if i really wanted a farming squad with boosters could get the resources to finish it in a day or two but then the goal is gone again.

Instead of research cost I think events pertaining to clans is what really needs to scale better. While running the event multiple times to put a large margin between the clans score and the !0% line was fun, it wouldn't have been good if more clans were full. 

Just looking at the events reward margins the issue is painfully obvious, the reward tiers are clearly making the assumption that clans are full. Take victory tier for mountain clans as an example, it needed 121,000 points for the victory tier, that's only about 400 points per person provided the clan is full, super easy. Mountain clans however are 101-300 people.

Look at every tier and you'll see that they all  only need about 400 points from everyone given the clan is full. When you look at the event leaderboards  this works out fine for ghost and shadow clans but even starting from storm clans up you can see how few actually reach this in theory easy to reach tier. Some of this can be seen as afk's in clans but a lot of it is due to clans not having their max capacity. As clan tier increases the gap widens, especially for moon clans, a half full moon clan (500) can't really beat a full moon clan (1000) but they're expected to achieve the same things. They could very well have 500 active players and downsizing to mountain would solve their issue but that means abandoning 200 active players.

In the end the fuller big clans will always dominate the top of event leaderboards like the last event and it's nothing but expected but the problem is basing reward tiers around such clans even though they're an absolute minority. Just look at the fact they reduced the score needed for participation tier. All that was needed initially was less than 150 points per person given the clan was full.

[Fugana]

Not to mention that the "event" rewards are pure trash and xp holders.

[--RV--D4VE-]

7 hours ago, -VV-ODiN said:

@--RV--D4VE-

would be nice to know opinion some of your Vice/warlord, because you are not able to see whole picture. Your clan finished Hema research after near 10weeks, but propably you didn´t even notice, it is not in your arsenal (that may mean: - you didn´t contribuite or you are a casual - who doesn´t care)...

You mencioned this system has been here for years, "why change?"..

We have been using old starmap in past, aren´t we? why change?... that is call evolution.

The unbalanced research system failure came here, when DE introduce rare drop resource. None of our veterans with near 4k hours time played, had  big stock of mutagen mass...

Research system need update, hardcore ppls should be able get  BP fast, no matter what tier clan they are in, and leeches should not be able to leech only. 

DE will fix it soon or later, otherwise  BiG CLANS HAVE NO FUTURE

PS: we did top 10%

Yes, it took us almost 2 months to research Hema - I never said the was easy and pleasant, on the contrary I said multiple times it was harsh and brutal. Hema is sittign in my foundry to be claimed cuz I got better things to do than level a burst rifle, but that doesn't rly matter as I'm a "casual who doesnt care" right? 

The new starmap we have now is everything BUT evolution, as you'd like it to be. The purpose of the new starchart is to slow down ppl's progress through the game, because apparently DE didn't figure out yet what's their new game gonna be, and WF will be entering EOL state in like 2-3 years from now. DE has to add new stuff for ppl, but they can slow down general progress in other ways.

IMO what's wrong with your idea is that it wouldn't help to actually solve the problem, it would extend it even more - some players in clan would have the research and some not, that could possibly make 2 classes within a clan and lead to splitting of it. The research cost is not the actual problem, the actual problem are clan tiers. The ones we have now, we're introduced  4 years ago and if you play long enough you know the reasons why it was introduced. That should be reworked in the first place.

 

[-VV-ODiN]

@ dave

Fair enought about Hema.

I can´t agree with you about classes, the only difference will be between: Leeches and rest active ppls. IMO Leeches don´t deserve any extra "free" stuff, because they don´t play.

When I wrote this post, about new research system, I went little bit fareway only for call the attencion.

Most fair would be:

 "Hema wraith", inicial research - the same for Ghost/Moon clan, none rare resource necessary. When lab´s research is over, each clan´s member will be able access to it. In the moment to copy it, everyone will exchange the BP for 500 mutagen mass. No matter what clan tier they are or how many members they have: (Ghost/Moon clan or 1-1000). Current system is "500 per each" so be it... It will be pretty fair SELF REGULATED SYSTEM.

From  my experience, I can´t blame clanies who have no Hema - mutagen mass farm on their top list, because they need get other BPs, first. On another hand IS NOT FAIR if other clanies, who want BP badly, are forced to farm 10x (5k+) mut. mass..

We can see many WTS Ignis wraith bp on trade chat, now. I check some trader´s profile, few of them has 0 event point. So they didn´t contribuite for top 10%, they leech Ignis BP and now they are making PL!? You have to be kidding! With the system I propose, those who want sell BP, will have to work on get those 500 mut.mass for each extra BP...

Everyone will get what deserve.

Edited March 19, 2017 by -VV-ODiN

[Justice_Ember]

As the Warlord of a Ghost Clan, that left a Shadow Clan that had Left a Storm Clan (in reverse order, Oshawer, No Gamer, Forsaken Inquisitors) I don't agree with making research costs the same for every tier. If your clan has a huge percentage of inactive people kick them and downsize. It is that simple.

I do agree however that there is a need of tools for Warlords to manage clan activities. I'd also like to see something like a Batallion/Troop/Squad creation for Clans, I managed to implement something similar in No Gamer(Shadow Clan) and it made things a lot easier. The key word is Delegate, if we had better options to do so in-game we wouldn't complain so much about research costs.

Those are my two cents on this. If the Batallion/Troop/Squad idea gets traction I'll do a full post about it. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by zzzNitro
Mispelled the name of a clan

[-VV-ODiN]

@zzzNitro 

I don´t complaine, I give my opinion and a possible solucion = "FEEDBACK". I propose SELF REGULATED SYSTEM, DE would not have to worry about the amounts of resources, we all will have the same possibilities. 

.. we do expel long AFKs - death weights...,

I repeat again: " the problem is - many clanies have no Hema - mutagen mass farm on their top list.  Other clanies, who want BP badly, are forced to farm 10x (5k+) mut. mass.." Mountain/Moon clan need 6x-8x time more, then most Ghost´s clans for finish research the same BP (Hema, Stims).

It´s funny to hear Ghost clan´s ppls saying research cost is OK + giving advice how to run high tier clan (delegate .. etc.), when most of you simply fly away from this problem.