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BiG CLANS HAVE NO FUTURE


-VV-ODiN
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59 minutes ago, -VV-ODiN said:

I don´t complaine, I give my opinion and a possible solucion = "FEEDBACK".

Alright, good for you, when did I say otherwise?

1 hour ago, -VV-ODiN said:

I propose SELF REGULATED SYSTEM, DE would not have to worry about the amounts of resources, we all will have the same possibilities. 

No, you are proposing an easy to abuse system that allows you keep the status of big clan with the benefits of a smaller clan.

1 hour ago, -VV-ODiN said:

I repeat again: " the problem is - many clanies have no Hema - mutagen mass farm on their top list.  Other clanies, who want BP badly, are forced to farm 10x (5k+) mut. mass.." Mountain/Moon clan need 6x-8x time more, then most Ghost´s clans for finish research the same BP (Hema, Stims).

So, again, that's not the problem, the problem is that the size of the clan doesn't reflect properly the active players

1 hour ago, -VV-ODiN said:

It´s funny to hear Ghost clan´s ppls saying research cost is OK + giving advice how to run high tier clan (delegate .. etc.), when most of you simply fly away from this problem.

Wow. This is so contradicting and condecending I believe you unlocked a golden trophy, sadly the new ToS prevents me from saying which one so just imagine it for now.

Finally, being dismissive doesn't prove you right, just proves the type of person you are.

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14 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Alright, good for you, when did I say otherwise?

No, you are proposing an easy to abuse system that allows you keep the status of big clan with the benefits of a smaller clan.

So, again, that's not the problem, the problem is that the size of the clan doesn't reflect properly the active players

Wow. This is so contradicting and condecending I believe you unlocked a golden trophy, sadly the new ToS prevents me from saying which one so just imagine it for now.

Finally, being dismissive doesn't prove you right, just proves the type of person you are.

You mean the new ToS is communism? Things never got better around here and the ToS isn't going to make this place less of a salt mine. If anything it forces the real vituperous crap to peripheral sites, and I'd dare say DE is not going to get same level of quality feedback they used to.

Also, trying to combat complaintiveness never saved a thread from a flame war. 

Edited by YourBusDriver
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18 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Alright, good for you, when did I say otherwise?

No, you are proposing an easy to abuse system that allows you keep the status of big clan with the benefits of a smaller clan.

So, again, that's not the problem, the problem is that the size of the clan doesn't reflect properly the active players

Wow. This is so contradicting and condecending I believe you unlocked a golden trophy, sadly the new ToS prevents me from saying which one so just imagine it for now.

Finally, being dismissive doesn't prove you right, just proves the type of person you are.

To be honest: if you ask me WHY I still keep "status of big clan", my answer will be: I like HELP (explaine: mecanics of WF, builds... bring them to EndGame) to low MRs to get "stronger" and enjoy this great game. Helping them makes me enjoy more Warframe... that should give you few clues about type of person I am.

And Bingo! Thank you for tellings us one of reason why many veterans are in a Ghost clan, now. Because "the benefits of a smaller clan" - that is why I wrote this post "BiG CLANS HAVE NO FUTURE". 

None should has an advantage to get Dojo´s BPs; to add personal part of research of BPs could fix the big problem we have, right now (read above).

How fast you get Dojo´s BPs, must depends only on how active each one is. All hardcores tennos would get it quick, casual players later and non-active leeches propably never...

 

Edited by -VV-ODiN
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3 hours ago, -VV-ODiN said:

To be honest: if you ask me WHY I still keep "status of big clan", my answer

I didn't ask tho. but for future reference, are you going to keep answering from a script?

3 hours ago, -VV-ODiN said:

Because "the benefits of a smaller clan" - that is why I wrote this post "BiG CLANS HAVE NO FUTURE". 

Again, you did it because "wah, big clan is hard to handle, DE gib stuff free, wah"

3 hours ago, -VV-ODiN said:

None should has an advantage to get Dojo´s BPs; to add personal part of research of BPs could fix the big problem we have

If you want no advantage how about removing clan entirely? And again, not a problem.

3 hours ago, -VV-ODiN said:

How fast you get Dojo´s BPs, must depends only on how active each one is. All hardcores tennos would get it quick, casual players later and non-active leeches propably never...

Here we disagree, strenght through union, is a driving force in this game so cooperation is the key. If YOU have leeches on YOUR clan don't try to make it a game problem when it's not. 

The Future of big clans lies in the potential to clean themselves from double accounts, leechers, inactive and casual players in order to be a force to be reckon with. If you can't and want to stay big for the sake of being big then guess what's gonna happen.

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@zzzNitro Small clans exist so people can play casually, sadly it appears that for DE that,  these are target players, and for that reason, they benefit the most this play style, wich is perfectly fine, everyone plays how they please. then we have big clans wich you have to take care of them, in every aspect and organize them so it works, besides you need to farm all the resources, and if there still time left, do your project of the day in the game.

It is easy to give an opinion on how you idealize a big clan should work better, but in reality is not that easy to have one. DE should totally focus on big clans since it is in those where people have the most fun in the game in my opinion. it sucks to have to reduce a tier just because the game doesn't have any management tools for the clan staffl, be able to organize such amount of people.

To put @-VV-ODiN ´s opinion in perspective is a ghost clan has 1 guy afk it means 500 mutagen mass, less and 10% of the clan activity. If a moon clan have 10% inactive is 50,000 mutagen mass, less. it is impossible to have everyone active all the time in the game. So it is not realistic to assume that big clans won't suffer hyper expensive researchers. My opinion to fix this problem is to auto deduct the resources from everyone inventory. I explained that in more details in my first reply.

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4 minutes ago, -VV-mago_de_muerte said:

It is easy to give an opinion on how you idealize a big clan should work better, but in reality is not that easy to have one.

Never said otherwise, actually what  I've said all along is that since it's difficult you should only do it if you can manage it.

5 minutes ago, -VV-mago_de_muerte said:

DE should totally focus on big clans since it is in those where people have the most fun in the game in my opinion.

Let's agree to disagree on this one.

5 minutes ago, -VV-mago_de_muerte said:

it sucks to have to reduce a tier just because the game doesn't have any management tools for the clan staffl, be able to organize such amount of people.

Management tools are a MUST during this year of "Clans". And again, completely agree.

7 minutes ago, -VV-mago_de_muerte said:

To put @-VV-ODiN ´s opinion in perspective is a ghost clan has 1 guy afk it means 500 mutagen mass less and 10% of the clan activity. If a moon clan have 10% inactive is 50,000 mutagen mass less. it is impossible to have everyone active all the time in the game. So it is not realistic to assume that big clans won't suffer hyper expensive researchers. My opinion to fix this problem is to auto deduct the resources from everyone inventory. I explained that in more details in my first reply.

While it's true that 10% of 10 and 1000 are obviously different, the presentation of the problem is wrong, 10% inactive on a Moon clan means 50,000 mm less, so the other 90% (900 players) must pick up 56 mm average more, gues how much each player in a Ghost clan has to pick up if that one guy (10%) doesn't contribute? It's the same 56 average.

Now, this guy posted a table that actually makes sense and it's not abusable as your clanmate's suggestion

 

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6 hours ago, -VV-mago_de_muerte said:

DE should totally focus on big clans since it is in those where people have the most fun in the game in my opinion.

In EVE Online, CCP (the devs) did focus a lot on big corporations (EVE's clans) and alliances, but it made sense there as the wars between big alliances made the news (occasionally even the national, non-gaming news) and drew new players to the game. The same can't be said for big clans in Warframe.

From a business perspective, DE should focus on the type of clans that represent the majority of players.

Although I don't have any hard numbers, I'd bet that the majority of Warframe players are in Ghost or Shadow clans.

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I don't agree with your ideia for research, I agree that DE could ease up the moon clan requirements just puting a 100x on everything is unfair, as keeping a full moon clan active will never be the same as keeping a ghost clan of 10 people active. But the ideia of having research cost the same for every tier is bad and then to tax members with mutagen samples as they take it besides the resources will use even more to build the actual weapon will make clan research way overpriced.

We are 1 of the most active clan moon clans on warframe, we proved this on last operation, and it took us a bit over 50 days to complete hema, which shows how it was way too many resources for 1 weapon and it's just not the same level of dificulty as a ghost clan will have, where 1 person can actually finish the research by themselfs. 

At the same time I like the ideia of clans geting together to complete research and specially on doing events, largers clans should also have higher requirements for clan related stuff (live events or research), they could however ease up a bit on these requirements instead of the old 100x everything rule, same thing of course would be aplied to mountain and storm clans. Every item of research proves your worth as clan and I don't think it should be made easy. 

I for 1 liked the ideia of ignis being for the top 10% clans, could have maybe made the requirement less strich maybe, but it's nice to see the clans that have been staying active (specially after the lack of content for clans previous to the operation) be rewarded in the long run.

The ideia that I would love and its been mentioned here, is a way to keep track of what clanmates donate and what for, specially for big clans it would help tremendously. I know for a fact that DE can keep track of members that been the longest in the clan and what time they join and stuff so I don't think that keeping track of people that donate for a single item in research should be that hard. This might open a way for clans to demand people to donate for certain stuff in research and then either kick them after donate or kick them if they don't, so it would be a gray area but those clans can be reported and won't last long in warframe.

Clans and dojos are geting a look this year, so Im happy for that, I will await and see what will happen, I think things are bound to improve.

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I hate to break it to you, but the effort is the same, you just need  to arranje the moon clan as if it's like several ghosts clans, so if 1 member is in charge of recruiting in a ghost clan, make it 100 in a moon clan, that measn each one only has to recruit 9 more.

Moon clans have popularity, but the recruitment only occurs when you agree on it, so that means you likely invited randoms just for the sake of it and now you suffer both penalties, you have a big clan and less players playing, that combo is really hard for those who are active in the clan.

I understand that you are active, but you must ensire the same on the other players, same way if i kicked 4 players from my ghost clan after the event (it was actually before the event ended to be more precise) that means you would have to ask your recruiters to kick 400 players and then invite 400 more.

This isn't a problem if you actually do this and if you have active recruiters, but again, up to the warlord to decide how he wants to run things, but you can't blame DE for the clan generalized laziness.

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9 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

I hate to break it to you, but the effort is the same, you just need  to arranje the moon clan as if it's like several ghosts clans, so if 1 member is in charge of recruiting in a ghost clan, make it 100 in a moon clan, that measn each one only has to recruit 9 more.

Moon clans have popularity, but the recruitment only occurs when you agree on it, so that means you likely invited randoms just for the sake of it and now you suffer both penalties, you have a big clan and less players playing, that combo is really hard for those who are active in the clan.

I understand that you are active, but you must ensire the same on the other players, same way if i kicked 4 players from my ghost clan after the event (it was actually before the event ended to be more precise) that means you would have to ask your recruiters to kick 400 players and then invite 400 more.

This isn't a problem if you actually do this and if you have active recruiters, but again, up to the warlord to decide how he wants to run things, but you can't blame DE for the clan generalized laziness.

somehow geting 100 recruiters on a moon clan is the same effort as geting 1 in a ghost clan? kicking 4 players in a ghost is the same as kicking 400 in a moon clan? it's not just a little bit more effort, its alot more effort, runing a ghost clan is alot easier than a moon clan. Don't say it like runing a moon clan is only slightly more work than a ghost clan. I have dozens of recruiters in my clan, I got strict offline policies and I make sure to everyone who is recruited, it get's mentioned that we expect activity regarding clan matters in whatever way may be possible to new recruits.

I don't think DE should make it so that moon clans require the same amout of effort to run as in a ghost clan, I don't think it would even be fair to get about 1000 members and have the same treatment as a ghost clan, you should expect more responsabilities the highest tier you go as a clan, but some stuff could get a bit more balancing. There's no way to control or to know every member in a 1k player moon clan, no way to keep track of them either, so there's always going to be members who will leech off and will do nothing for the clan (I have met litterally hundreds of examples of this), 

I would just be happy with a slight reduction on the expected requirements for stuff like research. Instead of 100x more why not just 80x or something like that, same thing for mountain and storm. The higher the clan tier, the higher the amount of players that will leech, be away for while or aren't able for some reason to help the clan in whatever might be needed. 

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@---RV---Maniac I have mentioned before that on a another thread there's a suggested table for requirements, with minimal % change from tier to tier which I believe is a good way to make it "easier" fot bigger clans. Also, every clan tier requires more tools for management that we currently have, I'm not saying we start using KPIs or anything but at the very least a tool for "battalions" inside a clan (different from alliances and clans) would make delegation a much easier aspect of it. 

@KIREEK While proportionally the effort is the same the scalability of a big clan is different, I agree that big clans that recruit just to keep the numbers should downsize but it'd be good for motivation to all tiers to have an incentive to strive for higher tiers.

What I believe is the right aproach is to 1.- Make it so that research time/cost lowers the higher the tier (15-20% difference between tiers 1 and 5) and 2.- In-clan battalions with it's own insignias/identifier that serves a piramidal hierachy making it similar to regular real life businesses/companies.

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2 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

@KIREEKould downsize but it'd be good for motivation to all tiers to have an incentive to strive for higher tiers.

What I believe is the right aproach is to 1.- Make it so that research time/cost lowers the higher the tier (15-20% difference between tiers 1 and 5) and 2.- In-clan battalions with it's own insignias/identifier that serves a piramidal hierachy making it similar to regular real life businesses/companies.

I'll have to disagree with the cost reduction.

You see, i manage my ghost clan because i can't gather enough interested players to make the clan grow and i have numerous road blocks to see if the player plays or has interest such as mandatory missions every week, rejecting players that want to join but disagree about the 100% tax and rejecting players that ask about hema as they want the research already done, gameplay time and previous clan experiences (why they got kicked for example), this means that there is a significant amount of players that don't see clans as clans, but ways of getting stuff they want, so they jump around, clan after clan until they find a clan that is relaxed enough.

Among the clans that have very soft restrictions are the moon clans, so they gather far more uninteresting players because they have to, they want numbers at all costs, they have a core of worthy players that doesn't scale as it should, if a moon clan has 100x more space than a ghost clan, then the core, the worthwhile players should be 100 atleast, not 15 guys.

Same way, they should have 100 recruiters, not 10 and when it comes to dealing with inactives, don't kick just 10, kick 500 and then make the commitment to recruit, you have to take care of things in a serious matter

We already have moon clans that are moon clans for the sake of it, if we reward them with lower costs then things will only become worse, players will join because they know less effort is required from them.

I am struggling to find players that have worthwhile interest and where talking about a ghost clan, just a few members is hard, how can moon clans with soft restrictions even gather 900 players that are competent, those leaders are completely crazy and have lack of common sense, if i can barely find 9, how can moon clans find 900

They gathered all the junk that is out there, now they deal with the consequences, yes the easy way out is for the clan to remain big but be easier on the worthwhile members and sadly i can't agree with rewarding laziness, laziness to kick, to invite, to recruit, to have a decent amount of recruiters, to contribute, to play, to demand effort.

Edited by KIREEK
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@KIREEK Take the Hema (which is all people seem to care for now) and it's 500k MM cost, 80% of that is 400k, that's still super high for a clan bigger than it needs to be, and it promotes downsizing to fit the current clan activity, as for an active moon clan it will be easier and faster to build but at the same time if your inactive margin is 20% there's no gain, now to @-VV-ODiN this should actually sound reasonable since it takes into account both issues discussed previously.

As for the roles you mention, do you honestly feel like you have all the tools required to manage a clan properly?

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8 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

As for the roles you mention, do you honestly feel like you have all the tools required to manage a clan properly?

I would be happy just to have something to track down resources donations and have a console where you can directly add resources to your clan vault.

Honestly, just first 1 would make me happy and help filter the long time leechers.

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8 hours ago, KIREEK said:

You see, i manage my ghost clan because i can't gather enough interested players to make the clan grow and i have numerous road blocks to see if the player plays or has interest such as mandatory missions every week, rejecting players that want to join but disagree about the 100% tax and rejecting players that ask about hema as they want the research already done, gameplay time and previous clan experiences (why they got kicked for example), this means that there is a significant amount of players that don't see clans as clans, but ways of getting stuff they want, so they jump around, clan after clan until they find a clan that is relaxed enough.

Your strugling to get good members for your ghost clan, yet you expect  a moon clan, who has to recruit 100x more people than you, to keep up with the outrageous resource demands that requires several high level people (who are willing to donate for dojo) to actually get the research done? Also if everyone had high standards like yours, noone would recruit the new players and help them through the game.  

8 hours ago, KIREEK said:

then the core, the worthwhile players should be 100 atleast, not 15 guys.

So we clear, most players at rank 20+, will have about 750- 2000 mutagen samples, no was doing derelict until this was launched. So the ideia that a moon with a core of 100 "worthile" players will still not be enough to finish hema, atleast not inside this century. We had to actively do clan groups farming to get in done. It was pure cancer.

Also on a side note, why the hell you get 100% tax, like WHY?

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11 minutes ago, ---RV---Maniac said:

Your strugling to get good members for your ghost clan, yet you expect  a moon clan, who has to recruit 100x more people than you, to keep up with the outrageous resource demands that requires several high level people (who are willing to donate for dojo) to actually get the research done? Also if everyone had high standards like yours, noone would recruit the new players and help them through the game.  

So we clear, most players at rank 20+, will have about 750- 2000 mutagen samples, no was doing derelict until this was launched. So the ideia that a moon with a core of 100 "worthile" players will still not be enough to finish hema, atleast not inside this century. We had to actively do clan groups farming to get in done. It was pure cancer.

Also on a side note, why the hell you get 100% tax, like WHY?

He expects a moon clan to put the effort in to be a moon clan, not to complain that they can't deal with being a moon clan because they're trying to run it like a ghost clan.

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16 minutes ago, ---RV---Maniac said:

Also on a side note, why the hell you get 100% tax, like WHY?

Road block, either the user doesn't play that much to begin with or the cost is so low that it's insignificant, once someone complains about the tax, that already tells me how much the player plays

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6 minutes ago, SolarDwagon said:

He expects a moon clan to put the effort in to be a moon clan, not to complain that they can't deal with being a moon clan because they're trying to run it like a ghost clan.

 

On 26/03/2017 at 5:00 AM, SolarDwagon said:

You're completely right, but that's not DE's problem, it's yours. Deal with it or don't run a clan you can't manage. Simple as that.

Your answers are amazing. Your them basically is "You got a problem, then fix it yourself". God forbid if we use the forums for complaining about anything or try to balance anything. 

2 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

Road block, either the user doesn't play that much to begin with or the cost is so low that it's insignificant, once someone complains about the tax, that already tells me how much the player plays

I guess that works, altought whenever I join a dojo with a tax at 100%, I usually take them as greedy but maybe there is a better reason after all.

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1 hour ago, KIREEK said:
2 hours ago, ---RV---Maniac said:

Also on a side note, why the hell you get 100% tax, like WHY?

Road block, either the user doesn't play that much to begin with or the cost is so low that it's insignificant, once someone complains about the tax, that already tells me how much the player plays

Maybe it's because I play to have fun and only 'farm' when I have a specific goal, but 1 million credits of extra tax to trade a single primed mod is not insignificant to me.

Also, what would you even use those credits on? There's nothing you could build that needs so much that I am aware of.

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2 hours ago, ---RV---Maniac said:

 

Your answers are amazing. Your them basically is "You got a problem, then fix it yourself". God forbid if we use the forums for complaining about anything or try to balance anything. 

I guess that works, altought whenever I join a dojo with a tax at 100%, I usually take them as greedy but maybe there is a better reason after all.

Except it already is balanced. If you don't like the fact that running a moon clan takes effort, don't run a moon clan.

Now, if you were complaining that there should be an additional clan tier at say, 750... then maybe I'd be a bit more sympathetic. But this isn't a mechanics problem, it's a problem with people wanting moon clans but not running them in a manner appropriate to the mechanics.

 

There is no reason to run a moon clan if you can't run it properly. You can get everything a moon clan gets from a ghost clan.

Edited by SolarDwagon
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On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 7:34 PM, -VV-ODiN said:

To be honest: if you ask me WHY I still keep "status of big clan", my answer will be: I like HELP (explaine: mecanics of WF, builds... bring them to EndGame) to low MRs to get "stronger" and enjoy this great game. Helping them makes me enjoy more Warframe... that should give you few clues about type of person I am.

I am just laughing over this...

you say you like to help, well, advice on good frames and farming assistance go a long way, and much further than random invites

you say you do not want leeches... well that would pretty much remove your 'help to low MRs to get stronger'

but the icing on the cake for all of this, is the 'recruiting' post stating 'drama-free' and 'not a warframe children's nursery'

one answer is an alliance, using shadow or storm clans using the 'hardcore' playerbase that want it instantly, or perhaps you use the vice warlords you have, this way you can stay connected to the new players you wish to assist, delegate fairly simply, and not have to deal with the stress you have right now... or just make a discord...

big clans aren't effective as many inactives can hide fairly easily, so long as they log in once a week or so to remain 'active' this is a problem in smaller clans as well, but the larger the clan, the longer the chain of command, and thus more filtered the info heading to leadership is

Edited by (PS4)chibi_matatabi
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