BiG CLANS HAVE NO FUTURE

[disco_inferno6]

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So basically, they want us to have an at least half active clan if we care to get the Hema (irrespective of the Tier)

(In my opinion, the percentage should go a bit down as you climb up the Clan Tiers. maybe a 40% of members of Moon Clans for instance, in order to factor in the fact that it's not as easy to manage a higher Tier Clan) 

 

For casual or laid back players, it's not a big deal if they have the Hema or not.

But for non casual or non laid back, it poses a problem.

 

Solution:

Big clans can go around this problem by downsizing.

 

New Problems created:

1)Smaller clans with more personal ties among players (over the years) will have a harder or hard time downsizing. Some small Clans may not even be able to boot inactive players because of friendship ties. These people are caught between a hammer and an anvil. Boot your relatively inactive friends or be locked out from access to the Hema due to excessive grind ?

2)Bigger clans will have a hard time to keep track on who is donating resources. Warlords could (in theory) manage this partly by tweaking the access to donation on Clan management rank of members in order to keep track of who's donating. But that would be impractical for clan warlords that have 20, 30 or more clan members. (very time consuming)

 

Solution to the new problem:

Implement a list accessible to warlords to be able to see the amount of resources donated per clan member.

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by disco_inferno6

[---RV---Maniac]

14 hours ago, disco_inferno6 said:

Implement a list accessible to warlords to be able to see the amount of resources donated per clan member.

that has been mentioned in alot of posts before, and yes it would help Greatly the big clans.

[---RV---Maniac]

20 hours ago, SolarDwagon said:

Except it already is balanced. If you don't like the fact that running a moon clan takes effort, don't run a moon clan.

Now, if you were complaining that there should be an additional clan tier at say, 750... then maybe I'd be a bit more sympathetic. But this isn't a mechanics problem, it's a problem with people wanting moon clans but not running them in a manner appropriate to the mechanics.

 

There is no reason to run a moon clan if you can't run it properly. You can get everything a moon clan gets from a ghost clan.

I guess we will agree to disagree about the balancing part.

But just 1 thing, don't tell the guy that is a warlord of the moon clan that toped last pacifist operation, that he can't run a moon clan properly.

[-VV-ODiN]

18 hours ago, (PS4)chibi_matatabi said:

I am just laughing over this...

you say you like to help, well, advice on good frames and farming assistance go a long way, and much further than random invites

you say you do not want leeches... well that would pretty much remove your 'help to low MRs to get stronger'

but the icing on the cake for all of this, is the 'recruiting' post stating 'drama-free' and 'not a warframe children's nursery'

one answer is an alliance, using shadow or storm clans using the 'hardcore' playerbase that want it instantly, or perhaps you use the vice warlords you have, this way you can stay connected to the new players you wish to assist, delegate fairly simply, and not have to deal with the stress you have right now... or just make a discord...

big clans aren't effective as many inactives can hide fairly easily, so long as they log in once a week or so to remain 'active' this is a problem in smaller clans as well, but the larger the clan, the longer the chain of command, and thus more filtered the info heading to leadership is

@(PS4)chibi_matatabi 

I can´t belive, you make me lose time with this ..

"In computing and specifically Internet, a leech is one who benefits, usually deliberately, from others' information or effort but does not offer anything in return...", to be low MR doesn´t mean to be Leech

 'drama-free' for me is opposed to "to have fun" I don´t want in my clan Drama´s queen, you shouldn´t be looking for a problem when there is no problem, I´m 99% sure - you wouldn´t match well in our community (that 1% - never say never - there is a little hope you are nice guy with great sence of humor)

"children's nursery" is opposed to "BROTHERHOOD" - brotherhood of man... if you have been in army (again - 99% not your case) you will know excatly what I´m talking about

" to deal with the stress I have right now" this topic in under "Feedback/Feedback Category" right? the word Feedback explaine all..

 

This post is about problem we had with HEMA´s BP research, to see whole picture - simply compare those dates:

- very active Ghost clan finished Hema´s research in couple of weeks

- very active Moon clan in couple of months

DE should analize it and find solucion

[Justice_Ember]

18 hours ago, -VV-ODiN said:

This post is about problem we had with HEMA´s BP research, to see whole picture - simply compare those dates:

- very active Ghost clan finished Hema´s research in couple of weeks

- very active Moon clan in couple of months

DE should analize it and find solution

Alright, first of "very" is not a serious measurement. Now, we have stablished already that proportionally, equally active clans will have the same time/cost for any given research. 

Problem is, you want your solution rather than accept someone else's suggestion.

PD: All that stuff about how manly you and your community are, it has the same effect as driving a monster truck.

 

[(XBOX)SolarStingray90]

I feel the same way I know what you're talking about I'm a warlord but I have work just as hard because of lazy clan members who think they don't have to do anything at all it angers me

 

[-Exalted_Owl-]

I agree with the Threadstarter. We had a mountain Clan, and i was literally begging  2 weeks for contributions for the Hema gun, but either people didn't care what i was telling, only wanted to leech, or did something in small amounts. Management is a pain in the &#!, prices are horseS#&$... Bottomline is, i took my Officers and my best warriors, appointed a new warlord and started a new clan. We're shadow now, life's easier and game is fun again.

I still miss my 3 years old dojo.. but, it can't be helped. Time to move on...

[Rawbeard]

it's not unfair, since you are no longer forced to be a BiG CLAN. kick the corpses out the airlock and downgrade to a size you can manage.

[-VV-ODiN]

We have basicly 2 kind of answer from Ghost clan´s guys, here:

 - "the reasearch system is OK, it ha been here over years" or - "if you can´t deal with it downsize tier"

If you are not able to read all previous answers and you are not able to see whole picture, please ignore this post - don´t reapet over and over those answers.

Last Recapitulations:

Remnants of the Void 1 of the most active clan moon clans on warframe (very active clan) - took them over 50 days to complete Hema = about 8 weeks!

Very active Ghost clan can make it in about 2 weeks... 

compare 2 with 8 weeks, you should noticed, somethink is wrong...

Now, let face the true:

Indeed this system has been here for years, but that doesn´t mean - is perfect. In most case there is no problem, because many researches can be done by single or few hardcore/veteran ppl (no matter what clan tier, they are) because they have stock full of resources. The system failure is obvious, when rare resources with low drop rate are necessary. It happened in past with archiwings (Itzal if I rememeber well) in past... and Hema recently. And it gonna happen in future for sure.

DE has easy solutions in their hands... otherwise BiG CLANS HAVE NO FUTURE. (I´m pretty sure DE won´t make that happen)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Justice_Ember]

5 hours ago, -VV-ODiN said:

 

We have basicly 2 kind of answer from Ghost clan´s guys, here:

 - "the reasearch system is OK, it ha been here over years" or - "if you can´t deal with it downsize tier"

If you are not able to read all previous answers and you are not able to see whole picture, please ignore this post - don´t reapet over and over those answers.

 

"Everyone that doesn't agree with me is a Ghost clan" Geez mate, way to be dismissive.

5 hours ago, -VV-ODiN said:

Last Recapitulations:

Remnants of the Void 1 of the most active clan moon clans on warframe (very active clan) - took them over 50 days to complete Hema = about 8 weeks!

Very active Ghost clan can make it in about 2 weeks... 

compare 2 with 8 weeks, you should noticed, somethink is wrong...

Give % of active members or don't compare them at all, saying stuff like "the most" and "very" is not a proper way to debate. 

5 hours ago, -VV-ODiN said:

Indeed this system has been here for years, but that doesn´t mean - is perfect. In most case there is no problem, because many researches can be done by single or few hardcore/veteran ppl (no matter what clan tier, they are) because they have stock full of resources.

You are right the system is not perfect, but you are biting your own tail here, no one wants a clan (any size) that completes the research with one or a few veteran hardcore players, wait, there is a group that want that, Solo Clans....

[---RV---Maniac]

10 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Give % of active members or don't compare them at all, saying stuff like "the most" and "very" is not a proper way to debate. 

1st place on pacifist defect along with hardcore tier achieved should prove we are way above average and should be good enough. I don't know where you expect anyone to get specific % if there are barely any way of knowing of other clans activity. But just for you my dear, I will give you my clan statistics.

 

56 offline for more than 10 days. And before you make more excuses, we have been this active way before hema came and have continued to be, only thing changing was an increase on mastery rank requirement. 

Oh and btw don't judge the online number too much, this is our lowest peak hour, since it was 2 am gmt 0 and we are mainly EU.

Edited April 4, 2017 by ---RV---Maniac

[Justice_Ember]

12 hours ago, ---RV---Maniac said:

1st place on pacifist defect along with hardcore tier achieved should prove we are way above average and should be good enough.

It seems you are confusing the concept of parameters with an insult to your clan, so let me paraphrase it  so that you can understand, unless you are willing to compare hard facts don't mention useless information.

12 hours ago, ---RV---Maniac said:

I don't know where you expect anyone to get specific % if there are barely any way of knowing of other clans activity.

That's the point, isn't it? Many players have been fitting this narrative without any concrete information other than "smaller clans got it first and that's unfair"

12 hours ago, ---RV---Maniac said:

But just for you my dear, I will give you my clan statistics.

How flattering! 

12 hours ago, ---RV---Maniac said:

56 offline for more than 10 days. And before you make more excuses, we have been this active way before hema came and have continued to be, only thing changing was an increase on mastery rank requirement. 

Oh and btw don't judge the online number too much, this is our lowest peak hour, since it was 2 am gmt 0 and we are mainly EU.

I haven't made any excuse, I've been presenting numbers... As for your numbers, 95% Activeness vs a difference of over 6 weeks means most of that % didn't contributed,right? Which in turn makes it harder on veteran/hardcore Players, so I'm asking you, if you compare to a ghost clan where the 90% is active(9 members) and those 9 contributed the same amount (515mm aprox) is it equal to 95% active on your clan? if it is, why didnt you finish it at the same time? 

This happens because there are not enough tools to manage a clan, activeness should be a standar KPI yet it's incredibly hard to get it, even more so contribuitions by player, 

[ChuckMaverick]

3 minutes ago, zzzNitro said:

This happens because there are not enough tools to manage a clan, activeness should be a standar KPI yet it's incredibly hard to get it, even more so contribuitions by player,

If DE are going to continue introducing non-trivial goals for clans that require real effort (and I hope they do, just in a more balanced way than the Hema costs), then they really need to support that with much better clan management tools and information for warlords.

[Justice_Ember]

@ChuckMaverick completely agree, so I've got this started, other warlords have started their own threads but the feeling is pretty similar.

 

[---RV---Maniac]

11 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

It seems you are confusing the concept of parameters with an insult to your clan, so let me paraphrase it  so that you can understand, unless you are willing to compare hard facts don't mention useless information.

Winning the event and achieving hardcore tier is a fact to prove activity and commitment of a moon clan, you still insist on dissmissing all of that and continue to go with everythng is the same level of a ghost clan.

11 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

I haven't made any excuse, I've been presenting numbers... As for your numbers, 95% Activeness vs a difference of over 6 weeks means most of that % didn't contributed,right? Which in turn makes it harder on veteran/hardcore Players, so I'm asking you, if you compare to a ghost clan where the 90% is active(9 members) and those 9 contributed the same amount (515mm aprox) is it equal to 95% active on your clan? if it is, why didnt you finish it at the same time? 

You didn't presented any numbers until now and that was just crap comparison, you just put nitpick everything and pretend somehow the moon clan requirement is somehow remotely fair compared to ghost one when it comes to research. Of course geting 9 members of a ghost clan to donate is gona be easier than get 900 members of a moon clan and confirming that all of them contribuiting, there's not gona be any moon clan capable of making sure that all members contribute thus the point of research requirement being too high on moon clans.  I had almost 10k samples myself, which means I would have finished the research right away in a ghost clan as a solo member, what's even your point with a 9 person ghost clan? 

A lot members from rank 8 to rank 18 did not have 500 mutagen samples, it might come as a shock to you but derelict defense and survival was worthless thing to do about the time hema hit and new players have barely any mutagens. Highly level players tend to get burnout at some point and theres no way for a moon clan to keep activity without a big range of middle level players. Besides alot of solo ghost clans finished the research on their own, on your logic 100 players on my moon clan should have been able to donate five thousand mutagen samples and finished it right away too.

If you think adding management tools to clans is somehow going to fix moon clan research your wrong, it will help alot but it's not enough. I expect research to be harder on a moon clan, but adding a 100x multiplier when you ran a 1000 people clan with people constantly leaving, taking breaks or joining. No moon clan can compete with a ghost clan that play together and that know each other well, organizing a tight group of friends as ghost is always gona be alot better than a one thousand people clan, and that's why moon clans will always stay behind from a ghost clan but Im okay with that. All I want is a slight decrease from the 100x multiplier, even just 90x would bring a great relief.

[Justice_Ember]

9 hours ago, ---RV---Maniac said:

Winning the event and achieving hardcore tier is a fact to prove activity and commitment of a moon clan, you still insist on dissmissing all of that and continue to go with everythng is the same level of a ghost clan.

It's a fact, what it proves however it's not a solid percentage and that's what you are missing and the reason I keep comparing it to a ghost clan is to show how numbers work. the requirements per player are exactly the same for all tiers, the problem is lack of control (management).

 

As for the second part of your comment, I suggest you go back and read carefully all my comments, you'll notice that I'm against the premise and suggested alternative but I'm for a reduced requirement for bigger tiers, I even posted another Tenno's table from another post! Seriously man, did I trigger you or something?

[---RV---Maniac]

12 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

It's a fact, what it proves however it's not a solid percentage and that's what you are missing and the reason I keep comparing it to a ghost clan is to show how numbers work. the requirements per player are exactly the same for all tiers, the problem is lack of control (management).

Everyone here can deduct that the number is the same per player for all tiers, there's no point in doing to deep analysis on it, every player in the clan is expected to donate 500 samples we already know that.

12 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

As for the second part of your comment, I suggest you go back and read carefully all my comments, you'll notice that I'm against the premise and suggested alternative but I'm for a reduced requirement for bigger tiers, I even posted another Tenno's table from another post! Seriously man, did I trigger you or something?

Didn't actually see you agreeing with the reduced requirement, got lost on all of your posts I guess.

As for the triggering part, I'm just tired of people assuming we running moon clans poorly and/or shouldn't run moon clans. Like 

On 29/03/2017 at 1:46 AM, ---RV---Maniac said:

There is no reason to run a moon clan if you can't run it properly. You can get everything a moon clan gets from a ghost clan.

or

On 29/03/2017 at 1:46 AM, ---RV---Maniac said:

Except it already is balanced. If you don't like the fact that running a moon clan takes effort, don't run a moon clan.

People oblivious and that go out of their way to state stupid crap does make me triggered. Not your case exactly.

We have also ocupied enough of the thread so Im stoping here.

Edited April 6, 2017 by ---RV---Maniac

[-VV-ODiN]

@---RV---Maniac

you are absolutely right! Thank you, for your posts.

 DE had simply solutions for this system failure:

- to not add "500x rate" rare resource

- cut cost (there was no problem do it with Vauban prime) or just simply bring doble resource weekends

Cross fingers, to not see a new research "500x" Tellurium in future

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

On 3/13/2017 at 9:05 PM, -VV-ODiN said:

@ TrollmeisterXD,  @ ChuckMaverick

We do have Vicewarlords team here... I see from your profiles you are both in Ghost clan. I appreciate your opinions, but until you dont put yourself in my shoes, you wont fully understand what Im taking about.

You said " the higher Research Costs are completely justifiable .." what if there would be also second side of coins, lower tier - longer time for research/build, will that be justifiable?

I could understand, if a new dojo room has slightly higher cost, because power plant or similar, for high tiers clan. But to pay 30x/100x! MORE for the same piece of BP "tecnology", doesn´t enter to my logic.

To upgrade a clan should mean an advantage, some extra stuff (more decoration, diferent - better badges - acording tier etc.). The Upgrade system "from a village" - Ghost clan to "a capital city" - Moon clan have many games (strategy, RPG..). Every warlords-clan goal would be grow up. Current system of latest researches put us in huge disadvantage situacion.

I dont intend to put small clan to worst conditions, I only ASK TO BE IN THE SAME condition for all clans.

yeah but a village is more managable than a city, you let non working people in the city and your city collapses. same with bigger tier clan, bigger clan looks good but if you a clan full of inactives oreech then you are not managing it properly.

remember 4 lions beats a thousand sheep.

[(PSN)Nek_Food]

They (DE) need to improve some things related to the sizes of the clans and needed resourses/scores for research/event. That is a fact we have acknowledge in the hard way both from the hema research and the pacifist defect event outcome, where for the hema research the bigger the clan the more time needed to make the reseach, and from the event where many ghost clans managed to acquire the slotted/catalyst wraith ignis (even day on one) while in consoles none of the moon clans achieved that goal and on PC where just 2 of them. So they have to find a way not to punish the big clans for being the home of new warframe players or the place where someone (warlords and "generals") has to always watch for inactive players and kick them immediately in order to recruit and fill their shoes with new more active and useful tennos. If I had my own clan - ghost one - as a MR23 everyday player I could build and research almost everything in no time even starting now from scratch, with just one friend in the same MR and playing habits it would just be like a walk in the park. Now as a member of a big clan, I am bound to wait for other players to contribute their fair share of "everthing" needed for research and events alike. So do I stay and be patient knowing that not all contribute the same (or not at all too) or should I leave for a small, less demanding clan which I could care only for myself and not have to wait other player's contribution for something new?

It should be better to be a member of a big clan, the bigger the better... Sorry to say but in warframe's case that is currently just not true. At this time, its better for higher MR and everyday players to be on their own, having their own ghost clans, not caring about anything else but themselves than to be members of big clans.

[Justice_Ember]

On 5/4/2017 at 10:16 PM, ---RV---Maniac said:

As for the triggering part, I'm just tired of people assuming we running moon clans poorly and/or shouldn't run moon clans. Like 

I suggest you audit yourselves then, the saying goes "if the river sounds, there must be stones". I honestly and wholeheartedly think that if instead of taking the time to bash the cost and scream "injustice!" you took that same time and effort to get an even better look at yourselves you could come up with something to counter high cost research.

 

[ChuckMaverick]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nek_Food said:

and from the event where many ghost clans managed to acquire the slotted/catalyst wraith ignis (even day on one) while in consoles none of the moon clans achieved that goal and on PC where just 2 of them.

That's simply because there are many more ghost clans than moon clans. Without knowing the % of each clan tier, rather than the absolute number, that achieved the Victory reward it's impossible to compare.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nek_Food said:

It should be better to be a member of a big clan, the bigger the better...

Why? Unless there's a genuine reason to value being bigger?

And if there is a genuine reason then it should need no additional incentive.

[---RV---Maniac]

12 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

I suggest you audit yourselves then, the saying goes "if the river sounds, there must be stones". I honestly and wholeheartedly think that if instead of taking the time to bash the cost and scream "injustice!" you took that same time and effort to get an even better look at yourselves you could come up with something to counter high cost research.

I know I said I wouldn't keep this up, but this was just on a new level of stupid.

And this is why Im triggered, here it is, another one telling me what to do about something I know much more about and have been doing already. Stop pretending you know anything about running a moon clan.

My clan is 1 of the fastest if not the fastest moon clan to finish the research. We already have done everything we can to have the most active clan with people participating on it that we can. We are at the top there's no mistaking it. Part of the reason why we didn't finish it sooner, was we were convinced there was a mistake in resources  and we assumed they were going to fix it. Over 1 month we got confirmation that they weren't decreasing it, and that's a bit after we actually started to go for it.

Even then, it would have taken us over one month to research it as one of the most moon clans on warframe as oposed to a few hours on alot of ghosts. If you don't see the issue here, then there's no point in talking anymore, I might aswell go talk to a wall. 

I could have easily turn my back, pretend everything is fine cause we did finish it early compared to all other big clans, and just proceed to bash every single other moon clan for not geting it and just say my clan is better. But I'm not an idiot, I can see when something is unfair specially when Im right in the middle of it. And since I do spend alot of time on warframe nowadays just running the clan is the reason why Im trying to promote more fairness and solutions. 

Stop using your condescing tone about people "bashing and shouting injustice", you been shuting down everyone on this forum that has a diferent opinion than yours like your life depends on it, promoting your own post. Do you even run a clan at this point? 

Anyway Im done with you, I guess we agree on disagree.

Edited April 11, 2017 by ---RV---Maniac

[(PSN)Nek_Food]

21 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

That's simply because there are many more ghost clans than moon clans. Without knowing the % of each clan tier, rather than the absolute number, that achieved the Victory reward it's impossible to compare.

Why? Unless there's a genuine reason to value being bigger?

And if there is a genuine reason then it should need no additional incentive.

There are more than 10000 ghosts clans on PS4 as far as I can say. From those 338 managed to achieve the Victory Tier. Lets say 3% of all Ghosts clans (even those with 1 person not playing anymore).

10000x10 players max (not necessary for Ghosts as most of them are selfish one man clan) = 100000 Tenno x 3% = 3000 got the Ignis as a reward

There are more than 110 Moon clans at PS4. From those NONE achieved the Victory Tier. So 0%.

110x1000 players max (has more meaning being full as a moon clan) = 110000 Tennos equal or more to those of Ghosts clans and NONE of them got the Ignis as a reward.

--------------

To be a part of a big community is always best than to be a lone selfish tenno. In big clans we help each other and specially the newcomers, give them advises, help them in missions, even giving them some stuff they need to get going, or you just continue to play alone if you need that noone is going to bother you. In a Ghost one man clan its always about you and no one else, always those selfish people looking just for themselves, maybe recruit a couple of "friends" just to feel masters of few but king to just one. Been there, seen it, hated it, so I left and joined a big clan and now I can say to you why the DE system is not working as it should.

If we as humanity we don't value the big communities then we would just stay in caves in small groups of less than 10 people and never achieve even half of what humanity has achieved. So the path is to create a small Ghost clan, then make it a little bigger with some friends and then a bit bigger again until you reach the pinnacle of clans: the Moon clan. No its much easier to stay small and research everything day one in a Ghost clan, than to be a part of a Moon clan and depend to other tenno.

The system as it is, its not rewarding anyone but actually punishes the players that join the big clans. Been there, seen it, know it. Need to change but not by punishing those who want to stay small but rewarding those who make big communities thus giving motivation for more to join big clans. Now its neither really, most punishing almost everyone, except those few high MR players in Ghosts clans, that is what we learned the hard way, first with Hema then with the Victory tier on the Pacifist Defect event.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nek_Food said:

There are more than 10000 ghosts clans on PS4 as far as I can say. From those 338 managed to achieve the Victory Tier. Lets say 3% of all Ghosts clans (even those with 1 person not playing anymore).

As I understand it, the leaderboards and event scores only considered clans that actually participated. So ghost clans of a solo player who doesn't play any more don't feature in the numbers at all.

As the event only ran for a week, it's highly likely that there were more semi-active ghost clans who didn't 'participate' simply because they missed the event, that's much less likely to happen in higher clan tiers as the chances of at least one player participating rise massively.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nek_Food said:

To be a part of a big community is always best than to be a lone selfish tenno. In big clans we help each other and specially the newcomers, give them advises, help them in missions, even giving them some stuff they need to get going, or you just continue to play alone if you need that noone is going to bother you. In a Ghost one man clan its always about you and no one else, always those selfish people looking just for themselves, maybe recruit a couple of "friends" just to feel masters of few but king to just one. Been there, seen it, hated it, so I left and joined a big clan and now I can say to you why the DE system is not working as it should.

That's just your opinion, the fact that you put "friends" in quotes only demonstrates your bias. Why can't a group of 2 to 10 friends play together in a ghost clan?

Bigger is not always better, and many players prefer to be part of smaller communities where they know everyone rather than another faceless member amongst 1000.

DE should offer tools to effectively manage clans of all sizes, but there should be no "social engineering" incentives to force players to play a particular way or in a particular size of clan.