Nikana Bleed Build vs Galatine Bleed Build

[Allmantor]

Just wanted feed back on my two latest creations on warframe builder. Here are the links to the builds: Galatine Prime Build: http://warframe-builder.com/Melee_Weapons/Builder/Galatine_Prime/t_30_220020004_226-3-5-239-5-5-360-7-5-494-8-3-637-0-10-641-6-5-729-4-10-733-1-10-796-2-3_637-7-733-7-796-5-226-9-729-7-239-9-641-9-360-11-494-10/en/4-0-109/122854/

and : Nikana Prime Build:http://warframe-builder.com/Melee_Weapons/Builder/Nikana_Prime/t_30_242000002_226-4-5-239-5-5-360-3-5-364-8-3-637-2-10-641-6-5-733-0-10-796-1-3-802-7-3_733-7-796-3-637-7-360-11-226-9-239-9-641-9-802-9-364-10/en/4-0-99/122855/

Are these builds any good? Which one is better at getting the job done?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Read the description of the Galatine Prime build for more information.

[Kaotyke]

Destreza would trump both.

[Allmantor]

4 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Destreza would trump both.

Really? :o I though since these weapons have more base damage, they must thus have more all around scalability.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Allmantor
grammar mistakes

[aligatorno]

7 minutes ago, Allmantor said:

Really? :o I though these weapons had more base damage, and thus more all around scalability.

Destreza has guaranteed bleed procs for the first hits in a combo. While invisible, 2 hits from a combo are usually enough to put down a lvl 100 enemy only with the bleed procs.  Hold the attack button for 2-3 seconds and you are done. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by aligatorno

[Allmantor]

Oh, but I'm talking for really hard endgame, like maybe level 180 LOL.   And the Galatine is mainly to serve as a bridge between mid tier mobs and high tier mobs.

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

I would go with body count instead of fury. As soon as you crit, Berserker will give you plenty of speed. 

I don't really use the Nikana so no opinion there. 

[Allmantor]

Besides, I often get a slash proc after every time I do the Destined Path stance move  with Blind Justice.  The high attack speed and high status chance almost guarantees a slash proc after the first 3 stabs.

[DSR1DES]

6 minutes ago, Allmantor said:

Oh, but I'm talking for really hard endgame, like maybe level 180 LOL.   And the Galatine is mainly to serve as a bridge between mid tier mobs and high tier mobs.

 

I could be wrong but I believe Destreza would still get better bleeds here since they stack infinitely and ignore armor. That is a lot of stacked bleeds in a very short amount of time. Also if the bleeds are blind boosted.

Edited March 14, 2017 by DSR1DES

[Kaotyke]

10 minutes ago, Allmantor said:

Oh, but I'm talking for really hard endgame, like maybe level 180 LOL.   And the Galatine is mainly to serve as a bridge between mid tier mobs and high tier mobs.

 

[Allmantor]

6 minutes ago, DSR1DES said:

I could be wrong but I believe Destreza would still get better bleeds here since they stack infinitely and ignore armor. That is a lot of stacked bleeds in a very short amount of time

Same goes for the other builds no? especially the nikana build. The destreza is only doing two slash procs then you have to stop the combo and do to again to be able to do 2 more slash procs. With the combo counter up you might be able to match the procs done by the destreza with the nikana without stopping the combo. But I aswell maybe wrong.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Allmantor
grammar mistakes

[DSR1DES]

3 minutes ago, Allmantor said:

Same goes for the other builds no? especially the nikana build. The destreza is only doing two slash procs then you have to stop the combo and do be able to do 2 more slash procs. With the combo counter up you might be able to match the procs done by the destreza with the nikana. But I aswell maybe wrong.

 

 

You dont wait for the first procs to reset by stopping combo. The weapon itself has those but when used with its stance just spamming any combo will stack bleeds extremely fast. Just read up on Vulpine Mask proc count and multi hits.

Edited March 14, 2017 by DSR1DES

[(PSN)lhbuch]

Galatine: You use berseker + P fury to try to have as much speed as possible? You could switch P Fury for P reach or even mamimng strike if you plan to slide 

Nikana: Condition overload might be better than relentless.

Bleed procs scale of base damage and crits, more damage means harder slash procs.

Destreza might get a lot of bleed procs but not at the level we are talking about here in these weapons. The base damage is lower than both nikana and galatine.

Dont forget that ALL nikana stances also force slash in at least one of the combos beised Nikana been a slash weapon. 

[Allmantor]

2 minutes ago, DSR1DES said:

You dont wait for the first procs to reset by stopping combo. The weapon itself has those but when used with its stance just spamming any combo will stack bleeds extremely fast.

I see. Now that I look at it your right. But the question is, do my builds get any where close to matching those capabilities once the combo counter is high enough? It still looks like a close call to me. I can't tell.

[Allmantor]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Galatine: You use berseker + P fury to try to have as much speed as possible? You could switch P Fury for P reach or even mamimng strike if you plan to slide 

Nikana: Condition overload might be better than relentless.

Bleed procs scale of base damage and crits, more damage means harder slash procs.

Destreza might get a lot of bleed procs but not at the level we are talking about here in these weapons. The base damage is lower than both nikana and galatine.

Dont forget that ALL nikana stances also force slash in at least one of the combos beised Nikana been a slash weapon. 

Good ideas, I need to try these.  And yes, that is why I have all the speed, to get more procs. Good idea about Putting Primed Reach for a more crowd control centered approach and more combo counter.  I will put all the good ideas you all give me into the description of the builds and will give you all the credit for them :D. Once again thanks for all the useful information :).

Edited March 14, 2017 by Allmantor

[DSR1DES]

3 minutes ago, Allmantor said:

I see. Now that I look at it your right. But the question is, do my builds get any where close to matching those capabilities once the combo counter is high enough? It still looks like a close call to me. I can't tell.

2

In overall usage they probably will end up stronger with all the ramp up that combo provides with their stronger damage. However, with all those forced bleeds and some attack speed if you add relentless combo it still makes the Destreza a great weapon with extremely fast combo generation. I see it as Nikana and Galatine are very strong but the overkill strength can take some time to ramp while the Des looks weaker at first but with dots and massively accelerated combo gain it can catch up.

[Allmantor]

4 minutes ago, DSR1DES said:

In overall usage they probably will end up stronger with all the ramp up that combo provides with their stronger damage. However, with all those forced bleeds and some attack speed if you add relentless combo it still makes the Destreza a great weapon with extremely fast combo generation. I see it as Nikana and Galatine are very strong but the overkill strength can take some time to ramp while the Des looks weaker at first but with dots and massively accelerated combo gain it can catch up.

Yes indeed, all weapons have there uses, and the destreza is definitely a solid weapon that anyone should use if they like it :).  But right now I am working on making an excellent bleed build that will help those crazy people with all their time on there hands to destroy all previous records and with greater ease :P.

[Vrcross]

Drop Buzzkill. It does not effect the damage of bleed procs. I would use Primed reach(but I always used primed reach on all my melee weapons) as it allows you to get more hits in faster against groups. Also Life strike depending on what you're doing (might not be needed if you are just planning to naramon cheese all the time). True steel would also be better than buzzkill.

Edit: Get relentless combo on the galatine too.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Vrcross

[DatDarkOne]

I have all three Galatine P, Nikana P and Destreza.  Of the three, I prefer the Nikana P with Blind Justice stance as my preferred high damage Bleed procing weapon of choice.  Why, because of the speed that the Blind Justice stance gives there really isn't any need for any speed mods on the Nikana.  That's right, no need for Berzerker at all.  Those same slots can be used for boosting slash, damage, crit, and/or status.  Works extremely well with Healing Return. 

[zehne]

Buzz kill is a waste, it increases slash damage but not slash PROCS, while it does help with procing slash over other types (impact/puncture/elemental), Galatine and Nikana are soooo heavily slash that you'll rarely see impact/puncture procs.

Also, Relentless combo is a waste, since you'll either run out of enemies with higher damage (and the combo will reset) or you'll end up hanging out in the 3.5x combo counter for ages anyways. (remember it takes tripple the hits to go up to the next combo counter)

You really really want at least one 60% elemental on the weapons.

A 60% elemental on either of them will take it from(including drifting contact/weeping wounds):

40.6/46.9/53.2/59.5/65.8/72.1 Status @ 1/1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5 combo counters to:

58/67/76/85/94/103 Status @ 1/1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5 combo counters

And yeah you'll get elemental procs in there too, but elementals are weighted 1/4th of IPS as far as procs go.  So you'll get 1.6 the number of procs by adding a 60% elemental, but only ~~13% will ever be elemental.  (in other-words if before you got 63 slash procs in 100 hits, now you'll get 100 procs in 100 hits, and out of that 87 will be slash procs, meaning you get ~~28% more slash procs by adding in a 60% elemental)

 

Blood Rush, Weeping, Drifting, Berserker, 60% elemental, Organ Shatter, Reach, Pressure Point.

The very best you could put together for Nikana/G-Prime imo.

Reaches near 100% status quickly, never really overshoots 100% status (how often do you get to a 4.0 combo counter really?) And has only mods that maximize the potential of the Damage & Slash procs. (all mods benefit all aspects of the weapons)

[Allmantor]

20 hours ago, zehne said:

Buzz kill is a waste, it increases slash damage but not slash PROCS, while it does help with procing slash over other types (impact/puncture/elemental), Galatine and Nikana are soooo heavily slash that you'll rarely see impact/puncture procs.

Also, Relentless combo is a waste, since you'll either run out of enemies with higher damage (and the combo will reset) or you'll end up hanging out in the 3.5x combo counter for ages anyways. (remember it takes tripple the hits to go up to the next combo counter)

You really really want at least one 60% elemental on the weapons.

A 60% elemental on either of them will take it from(including drifting contact/weeping wounds):

40.6/46.9/53.2/59.5/65.8/72.1 Status @ 1/1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5 combo counters to:

58/67/76/85/94/103 Status @ 1/1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5 combo counters

And yeah you'll get elemental procs in there too, but elementals are weighted 1/4th of IPS as far as procs go.  So you'll get 1.6 the number of procs by adding a 60% elemental, but only ~~13% will ever be elemental.  (in other-words if before you got 63 slash procs in 100 hits, now you'll get 100 procs in 100 hits, and out of that 87 will be slash procs, meaning you get ~~28% more slash procs by adding in a 60% elemental)

 

Blood Rush, Weeping, Drifting, Berserker, 60% elemental, Organ Shatter, Reach, Pressure Point.

The very best you could put together for Nikana/G-Prime imo.

Reaches near 100% status quickly, never really overshoots 100% status (how often do you get to a 4.0 combo counter really?) And has only mods that maximize the potential of the Damage & Slash procs. (all mods benefit all aspects of the weapons)

It is not a waist because, though you do slightly less slash procs if your math is correct, the procs will give you more damage because 120% is 2 times better than 60% and you will only get slash procs. And this build is made for those who do get to 4 combo counter boi, if I wasn't going to get to 4 combo counter I could drop relentless and Buzzkill for one 90% elemental and one dual stat mod and proc a bunch of corrosive.  Come to think about it, that is a good idea, I'll put that in the Nikana prime suggestions.

[Allmantor]

21 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I have all three Galatine P, Nikana P and Destreza.  Of the three, I prefer the Nikana P with Blind Justice stance as my preferred high damage Bleed procing weapon of choice.  Why, because of the speed that the Blind Justice stance gives there really isn't any need for any speed mods on the Nikana.  That's right, no need for Berzerker at all.  Those same slots can be used for boosting slash, damage, crit, and/or status.  Works extremely well with Healing Return. 

This is true, but the end result is about the same, at this point it depends on play style. But I'll incorporate your idea as a suggestion because it is good :).

[Allmantor]

21 hours ago, Vrcross said:

Drop Buzzkill. It does not effect the damage of bleed procs. I would use Primed reach(but I always used primed reach on all my melee weapons) as it allows you to get more hits in faster against groups. Also Life strike depending on what you're doing (might not be needed if you are just planning to naramon cheese all the time). True steel would also be better than buzzkill.

Edit: Get relentless combo on the galatine too.

That is true, life strike would be a good replacement if you are soloing. But True Steal, LOL no way.

But that is a good suggestion, dropping fury for primed reach and putting relentless. That would work very well. I'll give you credit and add that idea.

[Vrcross]

16 minutes ago, Allmantor said:

That is true, life strike would be a good replacement if you are soloing. But True Steal, LOL no way.

But that is a good suggestion, dropping fury for primed reach and putting relentless. That would work very well. I'll give you credit and add that idea.

You missed the main point. Drop Buzzkill!!!

[zehne]

27 minutes ago, Allmantor said:

the procs will give you more damage because 120% is 2 times better than 60% and you will only get slash procs.

Going to stop you right there.

22 hours ago, Allmantor said:

Oh, but I'm talking for really hard endgame, like maybe level 180 LOL.

You mean like 180?

You know where grineer have damage reduction against slash damage AND enough armor to make only the slash procs matter damage wise?  In which case more/bigger procs = more damage.  But you're insisting that less procs is better.  The damage/damage types don't matter in the grand scheme of things when your enemies have 90% + damage mitigation.

The higher levels you go against, the higher % value your damage comes from slash procs instead of weapon damage.  This means that if you're actually focusing on high level content like you said you were, you wouldn't care about raising the non-base weapon damage because you'd know that it won't actually do anything for you damage wise.

 

But be my guest, double that 5% of damage (a ~~5% total damage increase), or add another ~~20%.  Personally I think 20% is larger than 2x 5%.

Edited March 15, 2017 by zehne

[Vrcross]

@zehne

You're wrong about Relentless combination. I have tested a lot with this sort of bleed build, and relentless combination gets your combo to ridiculous heights. I have gotten to a 4.5 multiplier with the Dual kamas Prime in mere minutes. Relentless helps you scale faster with growing enemy level.

[Allmantor]

3 minutes ago, zehne said:

Going to stop you right there.

You mean like 180?

You know where grineer have damage reduction against slash damage AND enough armor to make only the slash procs matter damage wise?  In which case more/bigger procs = more damage.  But you're insisting that less procs is better.  The damage/damage types don't matter in the grand scheme of things when your enemies have 90% + damage mitigation.

The higher levels you go against, the higher % value your damage comes from slash procs instead of weapon damage.  This means that if you're actually focusing on high level content like you said you were, you wouldn't care about raising the non-base weapon damage because you'd know that it won't actually do anything for you damage wise.

 

But be my guest, double that 5% of damage (a ~~5% total damage increase), or add another ~~20%.  Personally I think 20% is larger than 2x 5%.

You couldn't be more right, with all the damage mitigation, the damage type doesn't matter as long as you have as much base damage as possible for those 245% Base finishing damage slash procs.  A mod that provides 120% more base damage is more valuable than a mod that adds 90% or 60%.