Major Mechanic Ignored?!?! : "Pseudo-Endgame", Encouragement and Discussion

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

28 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

There should be an endurance mode where scaling goes 10-15x faster and spawning rate ramp up 2x faster to compress 6hrs run into less than 2hrs run.

DE don't really know that someone ruined their health doing 6hrs+ session? Ohhh yeah it's by their own volition right?

I'm not sure how to respond to this, lol. Well, I'd like to say that I do enjoy speculating on your "mission duration multiplier".

What if there a sort of locker room mode in which you could choose the map and the starting point on the scaling chart? I'd find that to be entertaining indeed.

However, I feel it might be too big of a change to shoot towards at this point. 

And lols about the ruining of a persons health issue. Fortunately, it is doubtful that someone's health was significantly damaged by a single 6 hour run. Maybe if that was all they did. 

[IconianCat]

31 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

Okay. I would like say that I disagree, to some extent, on everything you said. First being that you can accomplish everything in the game effectively without paying a cent. It is simply less convenient and/or slower. Aside from certain exclusive apparel items, you can acquire everything without even trading, provided you are in a position to do so or you plan on playing Warframe for a very long time. I, in fact, DO. And I am prepared to wait years to acquire all the aspects of Warframe.

Second, the point of the game IS NOT an exorcise in breaking. That is only how some of us view it. 

Third, yes, at some point, everyone CAN be overwhelmed. But if there are people having difficulty with level 60 enemies, it because they did not intend, prepare, or understand how to deal with the issue In a sense, they weren't really attempting to reach "Endgame", which to the people I represent, is far beyond level 60 enemies.

That is something that needs to be understood. I am speaking in regards to those who like to play beyond the levels at whih the game is currently balanced at.

my point if you read the quote attached to that comment on the exercise in breaking is that it isnt an exercise in breaking. no matter how much you would like to view it that way fine. but there are always ways through.

i also never said endgame was  people struggling with level 60 enemies. as i said in another comment of mine, endgame to me is getting every achievement, every weapon, and doing every mission. and no technically you dont have to pay at all for anything. but the dev's have put some players in a position with little free time who want to play  (or even people with a lot of free time as in my case) in a position where they MUST trade or buy because the alerts NEVER show up when they can get on. the alerts from what ive seen. always. show up around the same time for rare blueprints which happens to be around midnight for me.

[IconianCat]

27 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

Yes, the game is realistically controlled by money and time. HOWEVER, enjoyment and discipline ARE ALSO relevant. The perspective you come from is only one of convenience and impatient decisions. This article is to look past that and address a problem that is centered in the nature of the gameplay, not the politics of the financial setup that is a part of the game. And regardless, the game itself is free and DE has to make money somehow. 

this is true im not disagreeing with that but my comment on the financial setup over something which roughly translates from 5$-3 units. could easily be made free. help players in late game or get to late game, and would not make a huge drop in the Devs income. im not disputing anything else said in this thread.

[Volinus7]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

I'm not sure how to respond to this, lol. Well, I'd like to say that I do enjoy speculating on your "mission duration multiplier".

What if there a sort of locker room mode in which you could choose the map and the starting point on the scaling chart? I'd find that to be entertaining indeed.

However, I feel it might be too big of a change to shoot towards at this point. 

And lols about the ruining of a persons health issue. Fortunately, it is doubtful that someone's health was significantly damaged by a single 6 hour run. Maybe if that was all they did. 

It's a sarcasm I already knew that they can do it but refuse to do it. This was suggested many times in the past already.

Mission starting point or multiplier reduces playtime but they want as much playtime and as many player count as they can get. Just business reasons to make game's profile looks good.

[Xzorn]

@(Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc

DE Steve actually made a small mention on his last stream about making later levels more accessible to players.

It was just a quick reply to a question but something might come of it.

I think some players mistake the time spent with the purpose of that time.

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

7 minutes ago, hainscat said:

this is true im not disagreeing with that but my comment on the financial setup over something which roughly translates from 5$-3 units. could easily be made free. help players in late game or get to late game, and would not make a huge drop in the Devs income. im not disputing anything else said in this thread.

Okay. I apologize for disregarding your perspective. What you say is valid and your free to discuss it. But could you possibly discuss it somewhere that it is more relevant? That, or find a way to better tie it in to our current discussion? Perhaps you have and I'm just not understanding. Would you mind elaborating a little more?

Edited March 17, 2017 by (XB1)Deathstroke52dc

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

5 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

It's a sarcasm I already knew that they can do it but refuse to do it. This was suggested many times in the past already.

Mission starting point or multiplier reduces playtime but they want as much playtime and as many player count as they can get. Just business reasons to make game's profile looks good.

Yep. I get the sarcasm. Just used to responding to posts with less humor. Thank you for your input, by the way. I DO think it would be a great addition to the game and I already have a few thoughts on it. I'm just going to focus on the recognition thing for the time being, however. Baby steps, if you will.

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

5 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

@(Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc

DE Steve actually made a small mention on his last stream about making later levels more accessible to players.

It was just a quick reply to a question but something might come of it.

I think some players mistake the time spent with the purpose of that time.

Really? I didn't notice it. Perhaps I will take a look  later. It would be fantastic if something DID come of it. 

And yes, it is very clearly a common mistake that is made by players. It's alright though. That's what I'm  trying to do with this discussion; Enlighten other about the difference and help them understand why. Then hopefully there will be more of a distinction and less confusion/backlash about it.

[IconianCat]

15 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

Okay. I apologize for disregarding your perspective. What you say is valid and your free to discuss it. But could you possibly discuss it somewhere that it is more relevant? That, or find a way to better tie it in to our current discussion? Perhaps you have and I'm just not understanding. Would you mind elaborating a little more?

its ok im aware i generally dont explain things well its a very unfortunate trademark of mine. i have issues fleshing out ideas properly. the conversation originally started out as how to help make later levels more accessible and you commented specifically on how the number of weapons and the arsenal of effective gear dwindles significantly later on. certain weapons just become ineffective, the ancients stop caring about that Dread bow or that Hek shotgun. what i was trying to illustrate was that if they made the reactors and catalysts more readily available made them more common it would expand however only slightly the total weapons viable for late game. right now 30 mod slots on a rifle is pretty small especially when you need to fight high level enemies and the mod capacity is needed to get the damage off to actually make a dent. i can say right now i would rather have a 60 slot attica than a 30 slot attica in my sorties which i do. but taking half the capacity would force me to find weapons with higher base damage to buff up with fewer mods. part of the solution to the late game accessibility COULD be but might not be necessarily fixed if they made the catalysts and reactors more readily available. i brought the finance bit in as part of my argument as to why it would be easy for them to make them a bit easier to get. its not a huge chunk of their income when it comes down to 5$. if theres anything i didnt quite clarify please feel free to tell me ill do my best to explain.

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

16 minutes ago, hainscat said:

its ok im aware i generally dont explain things well its a very unfortunate trademark of mine. i have issues fleshing out ideas properly. the conversation originally started out as how to help make later levels more accessible and you commented specifically on how the number of weapons and the arsenal of effective gear dwindles significantly later on. certain weapons just become ineffective, the ancients stop caring about that Dread bow or that Hek shotgun. what i was trying to illustrate was that if they made the reactors and catalysts more readily available made them more common it would expand however only slightly the total weapons viable for late game. right now 30 mod slots on a rifle is pretty small especially when you need to fight high level enemies and the mod capacity is needed to get the damage off to actually make a dent. i can say right now i would rather have a 60 slot attica than a 30 slot attica in my sorties which i do. but taking half the capacity would force me to find weapons with higher base damage to buff up with fewer mods. part of the solution to the late game accessibility COULD be but might not be necessarily fixed if they made the catalysts and reactors more readily available. i brought the finance bit in as part of my argument as to why it would be easy for them to make them a bit easier to get. its not a huge chunk of their income when it comes down to 5$. if theres anything i didnt quite clarify please feel free to tell me ill do my best to explain.

AAAHH. I see I see. Disregard my earlier, probably viewed as derogatory comments. You do indeed have a point. It all depends on, of course how big the chunk out of DE's wallet it would be. But I do agree that by making these items more accessible to the community, at least as far as platinum goes, it could make weapon testing a more common occurrence and therefore encourage more players to see just HOW effective they are. Widen the player bases horizons, so to speak. This could also help deal with some of the complaints that items are "abusive" or "overpowered", when in truth they are matched by other items or don't entail so much drama.

It's a little hard for me to see EXACTLY what the consequences of such a change would be (good or bad), but you definitely have a point. That suggestion could work as it doesn't really affect the mechanics of the game. The next step to this would be determining how it would affect Warframe's financial status and that of DE. So more research should be put into that before we attempt to take action on it. Right now, I will focus on my recognition scheme. But I will definitely look into your suggestion.

Consequently, I will include this post in my referral section.

Edited March 17, 2017 by (XB1)Deathstroke52dc

[(PSN)leduanjohan]

On 3/15/2017 at 8:33 PM, Momaw said:

Except if you balance the game around infinite scaling and abusive tactics, then give incentives to play that way, you destroy the game for everybody that DOESN'T enjoy playing that way.  Warframe can be a beautiful game, stringing together mobility, evasion, guns, and melee, in a ballet of death.  But it's already not efficient to actually play the game that way, because AOE spam, invulnerability and hard crowd control is the meta. And you want to push it even further in that direction, to where we literally cannot experience the full game unless we throw out all the stuff that's fun and cool so that we can get on board the shadowstepping EV-sniping sewer-camping train. Or else rework the entire game from the ground up to include infinite scaling in its genes so that all forms of gameplay are equally viable...which is less like changing Warframe and more like building an entirely different game that's similar to Warframe.

For improving survivals and making them really competitive in a fun way rather than what they currently are (whoever has the most patience will get the 1st place on the leaderboards), we should have our powers be randomly removed every 10 - 15 min, until we can't use any of them and are forced to extract or lose the rewards. Players would have to adapt to the situation, would have to rely on non meta powers and their teammates. And of course completely rework shadow step (-_-).  A good pretext for disabling powers could be that the oxygen will be depleted if those powers are used LOL. The best times on the leaderboards will be heavily dependent on luck, but at least i think it should be more fun competing that way than going for extended periods of time for the only satisfaction of seeing level 2000 enemies.

Whenever i want to take some time away from the grind, I go to Mot with frames that don't have great cc abilities and try to do my best. Every time is a lot of fun, and the game is quite challenging without having to face level 200+ enemies. And of course no shadow step which completely destroys the fun of facing dangerous enemies and reacting to their attacks.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by (PS4)leduanjohan
spelling errors

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

5 hours ago, (PS4)leduanjohan said:

For improving survivals and making them really competitive in a fun way rather than what they currently are (whoever has the most patience will get the 1st place on the leaderboards), we should have our powers be randomly removed every 10 - 15 min, until we can't use any of them and are forced to extract or lose the rewards. Players would have to adapt to the situation, would have to rely on non meta powers and their teammates. And of course completely rework shadow step (-_-).  A good pretext for disabling powers could be that the oxygen will be depleted if those powers are used LOL. The best times on the leaderboards will be heavily dependent on luck, but at least i think it should be more fun competing that way than going for extended periods of time for the only satisfaction of seeing level 2000 enemies.

Whenever i want to take some time away from the grind, I go to Mot with frames that don't have great cc abilities and try to do my best. Every time is a lot of fun, and the game is quite challenging without having to face level 200+ enemies. And of course no shadow step which completely destroys the fun of facing dangerous enemies and reacting to their attacks.

 

 

An interesting thought. But then, the "top" players would be defined by luck more than anything (as you stated) and the only reason for such a change would be because YOU PERSONALLY believe that it would be more fun. Now opinions are NOT a bad thing, and, to an extent, we need them. I do not suggest that what I suggest is not opinionated, for it most certainly is. But I have also noted plenty of others who share my thoughts and interests and seek the same ends. But if your opinionated suggestion would actually hurt one group (the group I am trying to speak for), then I cannot agree with it. Causing abilities to randomly become useless would do three negative things:

1) Frustrate players who don't necessarily play endurance runs but DO participate in endless missions. This is due to the fact that NO ONE (in their right mind) would enjoy something being taken away from them by a RNG that is completely out of their control. You know those missions you do that somehow get's completely messed up by a bug after you've accumulated enough rewards to be concerned of their loss? You're essentially asking for something like that to become a normality. That we have to play the game under the stress of knowing that everything could all fall apart without being able to stop it or even predict it. Negator bubbles are already a MAJOR obstacle to overcome, especially nowadays when fissures can drop them on your head at random. How well do you think it would go over if our abilities simply disappeared mid endurance run when we already spend a fair amount of effort keeping them from doing so via negatory affects? 

2) Cause utter chaos and make well made plans become obsolete in a millisecond. Not to mention that In high levels, this mechanic could very well completely shut down an endurance run completely, assuming the abilities are taken away long enough for a person to die repeatedly. Especially when THERE ARE NOT EVEN MEDIOCRE WAYS TO SURVIVE EXTENDED ENDURANCE RUNS WITH WEAPONS ALONE.

3) Discourage anyone from attempting endurance runs. Let's face it. PEOPLE LIKE CONVENIENCE. And those of us that like to work under pressure like to do so because with proper planning, execution, and understanding, the distance we can reach is in our control. If this mechanic were to be implemented, I can guarantee there will be less and less people doing endurance runs unless there is something else to counteract or balance it.

Regardless of what you and I think of this idea, the point of this discussion is to find middle ground between ALL perspectives. Even if that's realistically impossible, what we CAN do is try to include as many as we can in the end result. I hear so many ideas that would directly and negatively affect a certain group of people. Major change SHOULD NOT be made  in an instant. There is a process to everything. And skipping that process causes conflict and collateral damage. While this change you suggest might even be where this game goes, implementing it so bluntly and without process would be foolish. Randomization of something SO ESSENTIAL is too big and too fast.

That is why in my post, I DO NOT suggest something that would implement a major mechanic or change the game from what it currently is. I am only suggesting that avenues that are already available be more thoroughly explored, so that those that enjoy those avenues currently can continue to do so.

[(PSN)leduanjohan]

11 hours ago, (Xbox One)Deathstroke52dc said:

An interesting thought. But then, the "top" players would be defined by luck more than anything (as you stated) and the only reason for such a change would be because YOU PERSONALLY believe that it would be more fun. Now opinions are NOT a bad thing, and, to an extent, we need them. I do not suggest that what I suggest is not opinionated, for it most certainly is. But I have also noted plenty of others who share my thoughts and interests and seek the same ends. But if your opinionated suggestion would actually hurt one group (the group I am trying to speak for), then I cannot agree with it. Causing abilities to randomly become useless would do three negative things:

1) Frustrate players who don't necessarily play endurance runs but DO participate in endless missions. This is due to the fact that NO ONE (in their right mind) would enjoy something being taken away from them by a RNG that is completely out of their control. You know those missions you do that somehow get's completely messed up by a bug after you've accumulated enough rewards to be concerned of their loss? You're essentially asking for something like that to become a normality. That we have to play the game under the stress of knowing that everything could all fall apart without being able to stop it or even predict it. Negator bubbles are already a MAJOR obstacle to overcome, especially nowadays when fissures can drop them on your head at random. How well do you think it would go over if our abilities simply disappeared mid endurance run when we already spend a fair amount of effort keeping them from doing so via negatory affects? 

2) Cause utter chaos and make well made plans become obsolete in a millisecond. Not to mention that In high levels, this mechanic could very well completely shut down an endurance run completely, assuming the abilities are taken away long enough for a person to die repeatedly. Especially when THERE ARE NOT EVEN MEDIOCRE WAYS TO SURVIVE EXTENDED ENDURANCE RUNS WITH WEAPONS ALONE.

3) Discourage anyone from attempting endurance runs. Let's face it. PEOPLE LIKE CONVENIENCE. And those of us that like to work under pressure like to do so because with proper planning, execution, and understanding, the distance we can reach is in our control. If this mechanic were to be implemented, I can guarantee there will be less and less people doing endurance runs unless there is something else to counteract or balance it.

Regardless of what you and I think of this idea, the point of this discussion is to find middle ground between ALL perspectives. Even if that's realistically impossible, what we CAN do is try to include as many as we can in the end result. I hear so many ideas that would directly and negatively affect a certain group of people. Major change SHOULD NOT be made  in an instant. There is a process to everything. And skipping that process causes conflict and collateral damage. While this change you suggest might even be where this game goes, implementing it so bluntly and without process would be foolish. Randomization of something SO ESSENTIAL is too big and too fast.

That is why in my post, I DO NOT suggest something that would implement a major mechanic or change the game from what it currently is. I am only suggesting that avenues that are already available be more thoroughly explored, so that those that enjoy those avenues currently can continue to do so.

There is no need for any change in mechanics when you can alleviate the problem by adding new mechanics in the form of new game modes. For example, what I suggested. Make a variant of survival where your powers are randomly disabled; another variant could be to disable them in an order so that it is more predictable and teams can plan ahead; another one yet, could be speeding up or accelerating the scaling rate so that people don't have to spend so many hours to do their testings and experiencing really high level enemies. This last variant I believe is what could make more players attracted to high level content. The current duration it takes for reaching high levels is what discourages players from trying that content in my opinion. I mean, who doesn't want to obliterate a level 3000 bombard xD

The developers don't have to change anything. They can just add stuff in the form of variant game modes based on those we already have. Lunaro and archwing were not very appealing additions, so why not expand, as you say, content that already works like survival and defense.

I talked about survival in specific as the leaderboards are completely pointless for this game mode. I don't have the same problem with defenses where a team or player can choose to do a set number of waves, a time will be given for that number of waves, and others may try to beat the same number of waves in a better time. Survivals, as they currently are, offer no serious competition. And I and many others consider competition end game.

[(XBOX)Deathstroke52dc]

7 hours ago, (PS4)leduanjohan said:

There is no need for any change in mechanics when you can alleviate the problem by adding new mechanics in the form of new game modes. For example, what I suggested. Make a variant of survival where your powers are randomly disabled; another variant could be to disable them in an order so that it is more predictable and teams can plan ahead; another one yet, could be speeding up or accelerating the scaling rate so that people don't have to spend so many hours to do their testings and experiencing really high level enemies. This last variant I believe is what could make more players attracted to high level content. The current duration it takes for reaching high levels is what discourages players from trying that content in my opinion. I mean, who doesn't want to obliterate a level 3000 bombard xD

The developers don't have to change anything. They can just add stuff in the form of variant game modes based on those we already have. Lunaro and archwing were not very appealing additions, so why not expand, as you say, content that already works like survival and defense.

I talked about survival in specific as the leaderboards are completely pointless for this game mode. I don't have the same problem with defenses where a team or player can choose to do a set number of waves, a time will be given for that number of waves, and others may try to beat the same number of waves in a better time. Survivals, as they currently are, offer no serious competition. And I and many others consider competition end game.

In the light that your suggestion takes the form of separate game modes, then I have no qualms with your suggestion. As long as It doesn't take away something from what we have currently, I don't disagree. If anything, it sounds like an intriguing and wonderful idea. And I'm sure a lot of players would enjoy it:)

The leader-boards to me aren't a concern; I could care less about them. The competitive defense would be interesting to engage in. I see a few modifications that would be have to be made to accommodate it, but nothing major enough for me to be in opposition of. The game could benefit to an extent from a proper introduction to competitive play, as long as it was simply another way to enjoy Warframe. 

One last thing. What I mentioned about the leader-boards; I don't view survival in a competitive light. I like making plans, having a team that communicates well, using the previous attributes to accomplish something, and having fun:) So when I suggest what I do about acknowledging endurance runners, I don't do so in a competitive context.

Thanks for your input.