conclave is fine the way it is.

[(XBOX)Dark SalvationX]

this pvp is basic. snipers 2 shot people. just like most games. yeah its a fast game. thats the way we like it. leaen to move.

Edited March 17, 2017 by [DE]Taylor
removed Coc violation

[Mcl_Blue]

20 hours ago, (XB1)DARK SALVATIONx said:

-snip-

Wow, that was a fast way to devalue everything you said.

Edited March 17, 2017 by [DE]Taylor
removed CoC violaton in quoted comment

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

so Im guessing laggers are fine too?

[Echorion]

Here is a list of all the things in PvP that are fine the way they are:

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

I agree. Leave PvP alone and focus on PvE's next quest. 

[Kai_Shiba]

If you think being able to spam the bullet jump trick like a headless chicken is fine, then I'll have to say that conclave requires no skill and should be tweaked.

 

[OniDax]

All I'm going to say is this: There's a reason Conclave is one of the least played game mode in WF, and there's a reason other AAA multiplayer games are much more popular than Warframe. Think about that the next time "Conclave is fine" pops into your head.

EDIT: You know what, I'll say more. I think the above is an indicator, to me, that Conclave isn't fine the way it is. I think it needs serious work. For starters, I think DE needs to look at what multiplayer games are popular and successful (yes, both are important imo). Understand the gameplay mechanics that make them successful. IMO, the problems with Conclave are 1) the movement mechanics (including running/sprinting animations and parkour) aren't suited for multiplayer gameplay, 2) the gunplay mechanics (particularly how the character moves when holding a gun) aren't suited for multiplayer gameplay, and 3) the game modes themselves aren't good enough imo (and I'll explain this).

For movement, I think it'd help if Warframe had motion-captured running, sprinting, and walking animations, and if these animations were IK-based (inverse kinematics). I think this would greatly improve the movement in the game (PvE and PvP) and make it smoother and less clunky. I also think Conclave would be much better without bullet jumping and aim gliding. Wall running/hopping/latching is fine, but I think Conclave should be more about gunplay, swordplay, and abilities than about bullet jumping and aim gliding across the room.

For gunplay, particularly how the player moves while holding a primary or secondary weapon, I think DE could look to traditional first and third person shooters for influence. Whether it's Call of Duty, Halo, Battlefield, Battlefront, Medal of Honor, Ghost Recon, or Rainbow Six, there's a pretty standard movement scheme that's proven to work: when you are moving side to side, left to right (i.e. strafing), your character's body still faces forward; when you move backwards, your character backs up instead of turning 180 degrees. While some players might not think it matters, it does because it affects your character's aim. Right now, in Warframe, when you move side to side, your entire body turns in that direction; when you're in the middle of shooting, it's clunky and affects your aim. When the character moves back (when you press S), the character turns all the way around, also affecting your aim. Maybe it's a trivial thing to some (and, imo, it certainly isn't as important as changing the movement system), but I certainly notice the difference when playing Warframe versus playing a game with a more traditional gunplay system. Oh, and I think PvP should be an exclusively primary/secondary system with quick melee. I don't think Warframe's current melee system is suitable for PvP. If they introduced a dueling system for melee, only then would I think it'd work in PvP.

As for the game modes, I just think that we could have some more interesting PvP game modes that could be better than what we currently have. Take a look at the current PvE game modes, particularly the older ones: Exterminate, Capture, Rescue, Assassinate, Defense, Mobile Defense. Now, imagine if these were put into Conclave, with their same PvE tilesets. Exterminate would simply be team death match, but on the PvE tileset. Capture would probably be a king of the hill/domination type game mode where each team is trying to capture and hold a target. Rescue PvP would be a mode where one team is tasked with guarding a target while the other team is trying to rescue them. The rescuing team would have to escort the target to extraction while holding them in one arm. Assassinate would be where one team has to defend one of their team members while the other team is trying to kill them; each player on the defending team would each get a chance to be the target before the mission ends. Defense would be where one team is defending a static objective, the other is attacking. Mobile Defense could be a game mode where the defending team has to defend a moving target that reaches certain check points, while the attacking team gets a limited amount of time at each checkpoint to attack and destroy the moving target (think Hijack without having to move the target with your shields). I think all of this would make for a much more interesting PvP experience than the current Conclave.

 

There. I don't think Conclave is fine the way it is and I think that my suggestions could make it better. It'd certainly become a game mode that I would enjoy.

Edited March 18, 2017 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[IngridMello]

I will try to leaen to move, thanks for the advice!

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

20 hours ago, (XB1)DARK SALVATIONx said:

this pvp is basic. snipers 2 shot people. just like most games. yeah its a fast game. thats the way we like it. leaen to move.

This really is it, though. Few people spend enough time in conclave to become better and enjoy it. If people tried it more than a few matches, they'd start to enjoy it.

Edited March 17, 2017 by [DE]Taylor
edited quoted comment for CoC violation

[Aurea_Hiigara]

30 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CFE Discord said:

This really is it, though. Few people spend enough time in conclave to become better and enjoy it. If people tried it more than a few matches, they'd start to enjoy it.

You really don't get it, though.

If I eat something that I don't like, I'm not going to KEEP EATING IT until I start liking it - I will eat something ELSE. Similarly, if I play a game (mode) I don't like, I'm not going to KEEP PLAYING IT in the hopes that one day I'm going to change my mind; I'm just going to play something else.

[-Jackson]

Quote

You really don't get it, though.

If I eat something that I don't like, I'm not going to KEEP EATING IT until I start liking it - I will eat something ELSE. Similarly, if I play a game (mode) I don't like, I'm not going to KEEP PLAYING IT in the hopes that one day I'm going to change my mind; I'm just going to play something else.

Fair enough, but some things may take some time/adjusting before you like them (even food can grow on you sometimes) that's why we give some things a second chance. That being said, not everyone enjoys the same things and that's fine.

Edited March 17, 2017 by -Jackson

[brokentool]

IMO there is a difference between someone who wants to play PvP in Waframe, but doesn't like Conclave; and someone who simply tried out Conclave for, say, variety, and did not like it.

For the latter - more power to you, see you on [insert-favorite-node-here] =)

For the former - time makes a difference. You really do need to give Conclave some time, it does take practice and a little perseverance.

If you have played Conclave for some time, and still don't like it, that's a legit opinion I can respect, if not share.

[--.69-JP3GMD-69.nVbs.--]

13 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

usual to hard to learn let's neuter conclave post

 

Please spend more than 3 hours playing conclave and maybe you will appreciate it's beauty - we really don't need another CoD clone just because another player after 2minutes in it found it too challenging.

[(PSN)Radek-98]

I know that you are trying to show off your love for Conclave but I think you could have said that in previous post as a comment instead of a topic. While I do agree that Conclave is fine, this is not the way to say it because people make take it as a little hostile. Conclave does not need changes and if it needs a parkour change then might as well make the change to PvE too since parkour plays a bigger role in PvP because it is more important in there. Powers and mostly fine as well as weapons. Apart for a few tweaks here and there, Conclave is right were it is for those who bother enough to stay.

[OniDax]

6 hours ago, murdello said:

Please spend more than 3 hours playing conclave and maybe you will appreciate it's beauty - we really don't need another CoD clone just because another player after 2minutes in it found it too challenging.

Well, you keep up that condescending attitude if you want to. And while you're at it, keep complaining about how people don't appreciate conclave and how you wish more people would play it. Don't talk to me about how much time I've spent playing this game, PvE or Conclave, seeing as you only started playing in 2016. I've been here for Conclave 1.0, the failed Dark Sector PvP, Conclave 2.0, Lunaro, the Conclave-like Rathuum, and the Conclave-like Index. I've been here for all of that. It has never been popular in WF. It has never been successful in WF. And, IMO, it has never been good in WF. And I'm obviously not the only one who feels that way. If DE wants more players to play Conclave, then YES, it needs to change. Having a more traditional movement system isn't going to make it a COD clone. Having PvP game modes based on the actual, more popular, better designed PvE missions isn't going to make it a COD clone. It's just going to make it more like the Warframe that most players actually enjoy (and, based on the data Rebecca presented that showed which missions/game modes people played, yes, I can say "most").

Oh, and by the way, if Conclave was the masterpiece that you and the OP think it is, then it'd be more popular among Warframe players. Until I see that happen, don't talk to me about what "beauty" Conclave is. Because you're obviously in the very-minuscule minority.

Edited March 17, 2017 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[OniDax]

16 hours ago, (Xbox One)CFE Discord said:

This really is it, though. Few people spend enough time in conclave to become better and enjoy it. If people tried it more than a few matches, they'd start to enjoy it.

No, they wouldn't. Conclave has been around since Warframe's inception; while it's gone through game mode changes, the mechanics have stayed the same. And since that time, it has not become much more popular. No, they aren't going to enjoy it more.

Edited March 17, 2017 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

17 hours ago, Aurea_Hiigara said:

You really don't get it, though.

If I eat something that I don't like, I'm not going to KEEP EATING IT until I start liking it - I will eat something ELSE. Similarly, if I play a game (mode) I don't like, I'm not going to KEEP PLAYING IT in the hopes that one day I'm going to change my mind; I'm just going to play something else.

I didn't like conclave at first either. I thought it was a terrible replacement for rails, but I decided to give it a try. I played it for about 10 matches and found that it was pretty good. Conclave is an acquired taste, it seems.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

1 hour ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

1. No, they wouldn't.

2. Conclave has been around since Warframe's inception;

3. while it's gone through game mode changes, the mechanics have stayed the same.

4. And since that time, it has not become much more popular.

5. No, they aren't going to enjoy it more.

1. Yes, they would.

2. No it hasn't. It got added in Update 10. I'd recommend you do some research before making claims like that.

3. Again, wrong. The mechanics of conclave have changed VASTLY from the original settings. It used to be possible to put on PvE mods in conclave. Players couldn't even respawn in the original conclave.

4. Do you have any evidence to back those claims ? More players are playing conclave now, than conclave back then from my experience.

5. See 1.

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)CFE Discord said:

1. Yes, they would.

2. No it hasn't. It got added in Update 10. I'd recommend you do some research before making claims like that.

3. Again, wrong. The mechanics of conclave have changed VASTLY from the original settings. It used to be possible to put on PvE mods in conclave. Players couldn't even respawn in the original conclave.

4. Do you have any evidence to back those claims ? More players are playing conclave now, than conclave back then from my experience.

5. See 1.

I agree with Discord. 

There is so much Anti-pvp attitude from the strictly pve side and quite frankly I dont understand it. 

Majority of us long time players can walk into a pve game, and without even trying, massacre all of the enemies. I grew bored of that rather quickly. Sorties and raids are easy and the only time I'm ever challenged is when I play conclave. Rails were difficult because I was against other players and it felt good to be challenged in this game that I have invested a TON of time and money into. I'm sure apollyon can relate to this as he is a founder as well. We both have seen this game from the beginning. 

Pvp not only needs to be developed more but also requires some new stuff. We lost our raid equivalent that was solar rails. 

As the creator of this thread said, it's fine snipers are a two shot and it's fast paced. It sets it apart from other pvp. In conclave there is a counter to everything. 

Majority of people who cry and complain about conclave spent maybe two matches in it and after they got completely kicked around becaue other players don't walk around aimlessly like grineer they want to change conclave. 

Rather than doing what the great players have done and PRACTICED they come here and complain. 

Not only did I practice but I asked known players for help. I learned from the top players. Even now I'm the number 1 known penta user in xbox. The other day I asked someone who is more skilled in conclave than I am to help me get better. 

You may be able to walk into other games and be instantly good or buy your way to the top but not Warframe. 

So yes for those who wish to change conclave for the negative or remove it altogether please stop. Many of us log into warframe specifically for conclave. 

When we get on here all we ever ask for is more stuff for us to do. Not to remove pve stuff or change pve stuff. We would like a bigger slice of pie from DE. 

Refer to the DE Hosted Conclave tournement thread down below this one. It's just another example of the ways I personally would like a bigger slice of the Warframe pie. 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by (XB1)Aeries Vendetta

[(XBOX)Y0DA PRiME]

Warframe is a Beautiful balance game that consists in pvp n pve most of us pvpers that is defending the honor of the PvP Community really started off playing PvE first than decided to play pvp but when we got really good at it became fun. So lets just say you went into PvP about 2 months than go back to pve you will see alot of change in your mobility. Me personally training with CFE and Vendetta ive got 10 times better in PvE. All im saying the mobility side of PvP will help you survive in Rails N PvE. I understand it can get frustrating with the movements speed trust me i know about it but now me going into high lvls missions by my self is much easier.

Edited March 17, 2017 by (XB1)LYCANPRiM3

[(XBOX)Dark SalvationX]

i see alot of positive people., thats good. i don't care who offend im tired of seeing good games get destroyed because of the less skillful crybabies. if conclave is changed alot people like me that enjoy it will end up moving on to other games.

all the people that love conclave for the beautiful game it is will not enjoy it being changed. and the crybabies will stiil be bad a continue to cry because there is no satisfying some people that just never win,  plain and simple. after that nobody will play it.

i have been in other games that end up like that because they try to keep everyone happy. guess what, there is no such thing pleasing everyone.

what some of you are asking is absolutely Ridiculous. Removing the Ability to jump? You would be dying every 5 seconds. Most people are very accurate with weapons That one shot people.

 

[Heckzu]

On 3/16/2017 at 3:07 PM, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

I think DE needs to look at what multiplayer games are popular and successful (yes, both are important imo). Understand the gameplay mechanics that make them successful

Pray tell, what aspects of current popular multiplayer games would be successful in Warframe?

Call of Duty is a low TTK FPS game, where kills occur in as low as 0.0 seconds with sniper rifles. Warframe is a TPS. Nobody would want to play a TPS where you literally die instantly.

Battlefield is an FPS game with large maps and wide variety of vehicle usage. In Warframe, vehicles would be obsolete, and large maps would be counterproductive as there are only up to 8 players per match.

CS:GO and Rainbow 6 Siege are Attack and Defend FPS games. Warframe had an attack and defend game mode called Solar Rail Conflicts, but due to balancing issues that was removed without a clear planned date of re-release.

League of Legends, Dota2, Smite, etc. are of the "MOBA" category where all progression begins and ends within each individual match. That's completely different from Warframe.

Starcraft 2 is an RTS game in which players control multiple units and a base, with the objective of building up that base and eliminating the enemy. I don't think anything can be gained from looking to RTS games.

Hearthstone is an online card game. Unless you want Conclave to turn into a Magic The Gathering spin-off, there is nothing to gain from looking there.

On 3/16/2017 at 3:07 PM, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

IMO, the problems with Conclave are 1) the movement mechanics (including running/sprinting animations and parkour) aren't suited for multiplayer gameplay, 2) the gunplay mechanics (particularly how the character moves when holding a gun) aren't suited for multiplayer gameplay

There were a few relatively successful and popular multiplayer games from before Warframe's inception that featured high mobility gun/sword play, namely GunZ The Duel and S4 League with mid air dashes, flips, wall jumping, and rolling. The high mobility movement mechanics are perfectly fine for multiplayer gameplay; being uncomfortable with something doesn't constitute it as unsuitable.

If anything, what isn't suited for multiplayer gameplay is the oddly shaped static crosshair, the camera position and inability to shift the camera position, and how the player avatar is always opaque.

On 3/16/2017 at 3:07 PM, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

While some players might not think it matters, it does because it affects your character's aim

It might affect your immersion, but it doesn't affect your aim at all; your spread and recoil values stay the same regardless  of what animations are used to turn.

On 3/16/2017 at 3:07 PM, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

When the character moves back (when you press S), the character turns all the way around

If you're zooming in or in a combat stance, your character will walk backwards when holding 'S'. If you are in a non-combat stance, your character will turn to the direction you wish to move in. This is common practice in TPS games because it would be silly to have a character sprinting full speed while running backwards.

On 3/16/2017 at 3:07 PM, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

I think PvP should be an exclusively primary/secondary system with quick melee. I don't think Warframe's current melee system is suitable for PvP. If they introduced a dueling system for melee, only then would I think it'd work in PvP.

How would removing an entire medium of combat help? If you don't like the melee system, don't use it.

[OniDax]

20 hours ago, (Xbox One)Aeries Vendetta said:

Pvp not only needs to be developed more but also requires some new stuff. We lost our raid equivalent that was solar rails. 

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on everything else, but regarding this one statement: Making the Solar Rail/Dark Sector system PvP is what ultimately killed it, IMO. It was better, IMO, when it was PvE.

 

4 hours ago, Heckzu said:

Pray tell, what aspects of current popular multiplayer games would be successful in Warframe?

The actual movement mechanics/animations, and how you move when holding a gun (what I already described in my post), which are pretty standard in first and third person shooters. That includes motion-captured and IK-based animations. That includes your character backing up when shooting, regardless of whether you're zooming in or not. The current system, for me, is jarring and does affect my aim (not the same as the spread and recoil values. I'm talking about my aim as a player).

Yeah, I think taking out melee and bullet jumping/aim gliding from pvp would help, because it would focus the mode around the gunplay.

You know, I respect that you like Conclave, and I'd very much be ok with Conclave existing alongside a more traditional Multiplayer mode with the mechanics I've described (including mission types based on the PvE missions). But I think that if DE wants to attract more players to PvP, then it'll have to be a more traditional, standard multiplayer mode. Conclave could still remain the niche game mode that it is, but having a more standard, traditional multiplayer alongside Conclave would give Warframe PvP something that the current Conclave-haters could possibly enjoy. Conclave will never satisfy the majority of players as long as it keeps its current gameplay mechanics. I'm sorry if the minority of players who like the current Conclave disagree with that statement.

 

And, just for clarification, I'm saying the "minority" of players like Conclave because of that data DE presented that showed what percentage of players played which game modes.

PvP. 1.07%. I just want to put that there in case anyone takes offense to my saying that PvP players are a great minority. I'm not trying to be rude. I'm just stating what has been presented to us as fact.

Edited March 18, 2017 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

21 minutes ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on everything else, but regarding this one statement: Making the Solar Rail/Dark Sector system PvP is what ultimately killed it, IMO. It was better, IMO, when it was PvE.

 

The actual movement mechanics/animations, and how you move when holding a gun (what I already described in my post), which are pretty standard in first and third person shooters. That includes motion-captured and IK-based animations. That includes your character backing up when shooting, regardless of whether you're zooming in or not. The current system, for me, is jarring and does affect my aim (not the same as the spread and recoil values. I'm talking about my aim as a player).

Yeah, I think taking out melee and bullet jumping/aim gliding from pvp would help, because it would focus the mode around the gunplay.

You know, I respect that you like Conclave, and I'd very much be ok with Conclave existing alongside a more traditional Multiplayer mode with the mechanics I've described (including mission types based on the PvE missions). But I think that if DE wants to attract more players to PvP, then it'll have to be a more traditional, standard multiplayer mode. Conclave could still remain the niche game mode that it is, but having a more standard, traditional multiplayer alongside Conclave would give Warframe PvP something that the current Conclave-haters could possibly enjoy. Conclave will never satisfy the majority of players as long as it keeps its current gameplay mechanics. I'm sorry if the minority of players who like the current Conclave disagree with that statement.

Pve has over 300 modes in which they can select from. They have the sorties and the raids. 

We have 3 game modes, about 8 maps. We did have solar rails which were our way of launching full scale battles to those who were interested. 

Rails didn't fail. It was put into armistice to correct some blaring issues with bugs that came up. It needed a rebalance. There were glitches that were exploited that needed to be corrected. 

Give us something man. You and i have been around for a long time. I've been around since 5.0 and conclave feels like it has the same content as back in 5.0. Kicking out the same vent in the same few tilesets but at different angles. 

Pve became gorgeous but now pvp needs to be developed and our raid restored without too much pve involvement or at least give each individual clan the ability to choose either pve or pvp rails. 

If they took out the bullet jump it would reduce the ability for people to escape an onslaught. It would be a massacre for players who are not top tier. People can fight back against me because they can use speed to attempt to flank me. Take that away and im going to wreck them because I can hit people across the map of they give me a chance to line the shot right.

Edited March 18, 2017 by (XB1)Aeries Vendetta

[OniDax]

25 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Aeries Vendetta said:

Pve has over 300 modes in which they can select from. They have the sorties and the raids. 

We have 3 game modes, about 8 maps. We did have solar rails which were our way of launching full scale battles to those who were interested. 

Rails didn't fail. It was put into armistice to correct some blaring issues with bugs that came up. It needed a rebalance. There were glitches that were exploited that needed to be corrected. 

Give us something man. You and i have been around for a long time. I've been around since 5.0 and conclave feels like it has the same content as back in 5.0. Kicking out the same vent in the same few tilesets but at different angles. 

Pve became gorgeous but now pvp needs to be developed and our raid restored without too much pve involvement or at least give each individual clan the ability to choose either pve or pvp rails. 

If they took out the bullet jump it would reduce the ability for people to escape an onslaught. It would be a massacre for players who are not top tier. People can fight back against me because they can use speed to attempt to flank me. Take that away and im going to wreck them because I can hit people across the map of they give me a chance to line the shot right.

Rails were PvE before DE changed them to PvP. When they did that, people stopped playing them. Maybe you don't remember that, or maybe you weren't here (judging by your forum join date). Idk. But if you were here as long as you say, you know that Dark Sectors came with Update 13 in April, 2014. DE added PvP Solar Rail Conflicts in July, 2014. It was put into Armistice on March 19, 2015. It was PvE. They turned it into PvP, and then people stopped playing it, and then they put it into Armistice partly so they could roll out their PvP 2.0. So yes, IMO, PvP killed Dark Sectors. It was better as the PvE system imo. It wasn't yours (PvP) but DE took it away from the PvE community and gave it to the PvP community.

IMO, Conclave doesn't just feel like it has the same content. It feels like it generally has the same mechanics, which it does. As I said in an above post, I'm glad there is a niche community who likes the current conclave. I don't, and I would like for Warframe to have a more standard multiplayer mode with more standard gameplay mechanics and features, something based off of the PvE missions.

Despite the condescending, toxic, and rude comments of some posters here, my issues with Conclave aren't that it's "too hard" or "too challenging." I don't like Warframe's inadequate movement system and I don't like the aiming mechanics in the game. I think the problems with it are exacerbated in Conclave. I think the movement animations are clunky because they're hand animated. If they were motion-captured and IK-based, the movement would be a lot smoother. I think the bullet jumping is excessive. It's fine if Conclave players like it, but I'd like a multiplayer game mode where you can't do that, so that the focus is on your gunplay and not on your parkour. I honestly notice how movement while shooting affects my aim, especially when running left and right, and when running backwards.

I've played a lot of multiplayer games, some with crazy movement like Warframe, and some with more traditional movement systems like the well-known AAA shooters. I prefer the movement in games like Battlefield and Ghost Recon. Maybe it's just the tactical shooter fan in me that likes the emphasis on gunplay. idk. But think that if you had a multiplayer mode focused on your weapons, and not on your speed and your bullet jumping and your aim gliding, where the movement were more standard, then you wouldn't have to worry about players not being able to fight back, because what would be most important would be your weapons, not your ability to bounce around the map while performing slide kills and knockdowns. And I think if the PvP missions were based on the PvE ones (defense, capture - like an actual NPC target, rescue, assassinate, mobile defense, etc) then you'd have much more interesting PvP modes than just TDM and Capture the Cephalon.

Again, that could exist alongside Conclave. It wouldn't have to replace it. But I think it would benefit Warframe to have such a multiplayer system in the game.

Edited March 18, 2017 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n