"Nerf" World On Fire by making Ember stronger

[Rolunde]

1 hour ago, DeadScream said:

Because some people agree ? 

 

But now I understand the issue ! The community is split between 2 types of players :

• Those who consider Warframe as an Action Shooter Game
• Those who consider Warframe as a farming simulator game and will cry if DE dare nerf their easy life tools

 

BINGO!

+1 given ;)

~R~

Now as to something on topic, again I will say I Do want to see WoF get reworked into something more interesting than just "toggle on and run to extraction/hide in a crate/meditate on the defense objective." 
But I don't want it to be nerfed just to make it go away, I'd love to see it made into something scalable and preferably something with rewarding synergy with the rest of her kit.

Saryn and Ash both got reworks for reasons that Ember's WoF seems to match.

Saryn can still nuke a map but you have to put some button pushing into it.

Ash's b.s. rework kind of highlights something about WoF.  On the DevStream Scott said they had wanted to let you keep Ash active while b.s. was in effect. But after testing it for a while decided it was "too OP" and settled on what we go instead.

But WoF basically just does the thing while Ember remains active (well or at least available for being active if you don't just AFK her to take a bio or grab a snack!)

And for people that really do like Ember, wouldn't it be nice if she were totally viable for Sortie-3 and beyond?! Instead of largely having a frame meta of
"only farm (re: 'speed run') low-level missions and frame swap if going over level 50".

Getting a rework that actually makes her more viable against level 80+ enemies would be amazing.

Cheers!
~R~

[Djego27]

On 3.4.2017 at 2:26 AM, Almagnus1 said:

Except that she's strictly inferior to my sortie Inaros build, doesn't do enough focused DPS to replace Exalted Blade Excalibur, is a horrible choice compared to an Irradiating Disarm Loki for spy missions, and Ember is starting to become less appealing than an Effigy Chroma build for Defense-type missions.  There's also a Speed/Slow Nova and Razorwing Titania in the works - not to mention the leveling of other warframes, but that's something you can see if you check my profile ingame.

Ember just happens to fill a very specific niche in my roster because of WoF.  I don't see a need for WoF to be changed because IMO WoF is fine as it is.

Way to make assumptions about the people that don't want to screw with Ember...

Well the thing about Inaros and Excalibur is simply that DE is very bad at balancing melee, so what you get is A useless or horrible overpowered with little in between. I actually run most of the sorti spy missions with Ember(or another frame) if it is not something like elemental resist, since you get some extra focus and standing for the kills from vault to vault and it is not really slower.

Ember is much better then Chroma in any kind of defence mission, for the simply reason that she got CC, while Chorma is more tank/weapon damage orientated for Survival.

Again you can do what people do with Ember with most frames that do damage with her 4 at lower levels just as good.

Like I did say, while I have all the frames(except Excalibur, was my starter 3 years ago and I sold the frame to make room for Ember, I still have one in my foundry but never had the itch to play it again) and all the weapons and also formaed them a lot. I just use Ember the most because if you did go the long way to get really into it, it was far better then anybody was giving it credit for since it was in all the guides unexplained outside WOF(most guides even miss to mention that accelerant works on all fire damage instead of just abilities, what was a major game changer for me looking at the frame). Imaging Ember back in the days as incredible broken dps frame at high levels, while having the general image of being terrible.

Quite similar to today's sorti defence, where single prisma grakata vs 3 soma prime does reinforce that you do not necessarily look for a scalpel as Ember, most times a big hammer will not only do 70%+ team damage it will also stop anything you look at for good at putting scratch a single scratch into your frame(yeah I left the mission with 0% damage taken as close range dps), quite different to the Nyx or Trinity in the mission that did go down multiple times with the almighty soma prime and her far superior defensive abilities(last time I played Nyx in soti people companied it was to boring).

Edited April 3, 2017 by Djego27

[DeadScream]

2 hours ago, Rolunde said:

BINGO!

+1 given ;)

~R~

Now as to something on topic, again I will say I Do want to see WoF get reworked into something more interesting than just "toggle on and run to extraction/hide in a crate/meditate on the defense objective." 
But I don't want it to be nerfed just to make it go away, I'd love to see it made into something scalable and preferably something with rewarding synergy with the rest of her kit.

Saryn and Ash both got reworks for reasons that Ember's WoF seems to match.

Saryn can still nuke a map but you have to put some button pushing into it.

Ash's b.s. rework kind of highlights something about WoF.  On the DevStream Scott said they had wanted to let you keep Ash active while b.s. was in effect. But after testing it for a while decided it was "too OP" and settled on what we go instead.

But WoF basically just does the thing while Ember remains active (well or at least available for being active if you don't just AFK her to take a bio or grab a snack!)

And for people that really do like Ember, wouldn't it be nice if she were totally viable for Sortie-3 and beyond?! Instead of largely having a frame meta of
"only farm (re: 'speed run') low-level missions and frame swap if going over level 50".

Getting a rework that actually makes her more viable against level 80+ enemies would be amazing.

Cheers!
~R~

Meh, you stole MY point of view ! :B

[Rolunde]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

quite different to the Nyx or Trinity in the mission that did go down multiple times with the almighty soma prime and her far superior defensive abilities(last time I played Nyx in soti people companied it was to boring).

 

Well, a bit off topic but Assimilate basically got nerfed so that's probably not much of a problem now. 

If they think it is boring all they have to do is damage the bubble a whole bunch draining all of Nyx's energy. =p

Unless they were complaining about Nyx's CC abilities, but how is that boring?! You still get to kill all the things!

~R~

[Almagnus1]

8 hours ago, DeadScream said:

Because some people agree ? 

 

But now I understand the issue ! The community is split between 2 types of players :

• Those who consider Warframe as an Action Shooter Game
• Those who consider Warframe as a farming simulator game and will cry if DE dare nerf their easy life tools

Eh, no - because you're missing a third category...  The people who are still building all the fun tools, and need to go farming so they can be better at the Action Shooter Game.

Some farming tools are nice because of the rare resources, like Orokin Cells for example, are a pain to acquire normally (I still need to farm out 85 Orokin Cells to build the prime items that I have collected the parts for - not to mention the forma I'm building).

And then you have the idiocy of the 5000 mutagen samples for the Hema Research in the Dojo.

So while I would just love to do nothing more than run around and shoot stuff (or in my case, do the occasional crawl like a ninja through a solo spy mission =D ), I realize that sometimes you gotta farm stuff, and having frames (like Ember) that make that easy lets me fast forward through the boring stuff and get back to the "Action Shooter Game" stuff.

It's not all black and white...

Edited April 4, 2017 by Almagnus1

[taiiat]

On 3/19/2017 at 3:12 PM, Djego27 said:

1. While LoS sounds like not taking away much, by the way LoS works in warframe makes it not that great. Gpull became literally pointless with the LoS change, compared to pulling stuff from a direction without LoS even in normal use. Even yesterday I was just scratching my head in a infested defence since the AOE explosion of Acid shells apparently also uses the LoS of the target, what means if you kill a charger at one side of the pod the 2 of this side will also die by it, while the charger on the other side of the pod, literally next to it behind a 0.5m wall will take no damage at all.

that's a simple to solve issue that Digital Extremes simply has never done - anything with AoE having two Ranges:

one Range, LoS abiding
a second smaller Range, non LoS abiding

then you can make sure it hits things that are "WTF IT'S RIGHT THERE", but still prevent things from hitting everything that exists at once.
problem solved, really.

19 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So while I would just love to do nothing more than run around and shoot stuff

hm... you can do that and collect the Resources you're looking for just fine. just so long as you play a variety of Missions across areas so that you get some of all of the Resources that you need and will need.
(that's what i've done, little to no dedicated grinding - ever - avoiding it whenever possible)

Edited April 3, 2017 by taiiat

[Vilmu]

On 20.3.2017 at 6:43 PM, DeadScream said:

And also, this is a multiplayer game. I see no reason why things shouldn't be done in a way where other players can play, while keeping them powerful enough for a good solo experience.

Just my opinion; but when someone using warframe X and/or weapon Y becomes a problem for you, the problem is you playing in a public and not the frame/weapon. Just change to solo/friends/invite only and your problems go away and you can kill stuff at your own pace. That's what I would do if there were frame/weapon combos I didn't want to see.

To me ember is fine as it is. Maybe add some ability scaling so the abilities deal damage at higher levels too, but it's the same for almost all damaging abilities.

But okay, so lets say that they rework WoF/whole Ember's kit, what next? Maybe maim, spores, avalanche, rhino stomp, sound quake, divine spears, reckoning, Ignis or zenistar is next on your list of things that kill stuff too fast and far for you? It's just endless cycle and soon all we have in the game is single target damage abilities and 1 round per second single target weapons...

[Almagnus1]

1 minute ago, Vilmu said:

Just my opinion; but when someone using warframe X and/or weapon Y becomes a problem for you, the problem is you playing in a public and not the frame/weapon. Just change to solo/friends/invite only and your problems go away and you can kill stuff at your own pace. That's what I would do if there were frame/weapon combos I didn't want to see.

To me ember is fine as it is. Maybe add some ability scaling so the abilities deal damage at higher levels too, but it's the same for almost all damaging abilities.

But okay, so lets say that they rework WoF/whole Ember's kit, what next? Maybe maim, spores, avalanche, rhino stomp, sound quake, divine spears, reckoning, Ignis or zenistar is next on your list of things that kill stuff too fast and far for you? It's just endless cycle and soon all we have in the game is single target damage abilities and 1 round per second single target weapons...

This exactly.

Too many special snowflakes don't like Ember, so they complain about her.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

1 hour ago, Vilmu said:

Just my opinion; but when someone using warframe X and/or weapon Y becomes a problem for you, the problem is you playing in a public and not the frame/weapon. Just change to solo/friends/invite only and your problems go away and you can kill stuff at your own pace. That's what I would do if there were frame/weapon combos I didn't want to see.

To me ember is fine as it is. Maybe add some ability scaling so the abilities deal damage at higher levels too, but it's the same for almost all damaging abilities.

But okay, so lets say that they rework WoF/whole Ember's kit, what next? Maybe maim, spores, avalanche, rhino stomp, sound quake, divine spears, reckoning, Ignis or zenistar is next on your list of things that kill stuff too fast and far for you? It's just endless cycle and soon all we have in the game is single target damage abilities and 1 round per second single target weapons...

Nice slippery slope argument. 3/10.

If someone else just playing the game with the tools that are there does enough to decrease your enjoyment of said experience, why the frak are they able to play in such a way? They nerfed Tonkor and Simulor on that logic, so what makes Ember so special? She's not the only cheese-frame, as you pointed out, but she is by far the biggest example of it.

[Me.KayOh]

On 3/19/2017 at 11:57 AM, Rolunde said:

WoF is incredibly boring (outside of "higher level" content you can literally go AFK) and looking at some of the Reworks done by DE (Mesa, Saryn, Ash) I'm kind of surprised it hasn't gotten an overhaul like that yet. 

 

This. it kinda seems unfair to me how long some things are allowed to go uncheck before something is done. Case in point Saryn and Ash. Nova was nerfed right into the ground not long after her release, but Saryn and Ash's press4towin persisted for a very long time after, until eventually they were reworked.

EDIT: dont get me wrong. I love using each frame as they are now. I'm just saying how things occurred.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Church002

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, XanaSkullpulper said:

Nice slippery slope argument. 3/10.

If someone else just playing the game with the tools that are there does enough to decrease your enjoyment of said experience, why the frak are they able to play in such a way? They nerfed Tonkor and Simulor on that logic, so what makes Ember so special? She's not the only cheese-frame, as you pointed out, but she is by far the biggest example of it.

Eh, no.

If I choose a color scheme and happen to be in the relay doing my usual stuff, and someone happens to be deeply offended by my color scheme to the point that it's a negative impact on their gameplay experience, what should happen in that scenario?

[Vilmu]

8 hours ago, XanaSkullpulper said:

Nice slippery slope argument. 3/10.

If someone else just playing the game with the tools that are there does enough to decrease your enjoyment of said experience, why the frak are they able to play in such a way? They nerfed Tonkor and Simulor on that logic, so what makes Ember so special? She's not the only cheese-frame, as you pointed out, but she is by far the biggest example of it.

Again, if what someone else is doing or using is a problem for you, why are you playing in public? Isn't your (slower?) playstyle part of the problem? As long as there are any type of aoe attacks in the game, these people are able to kill your "enjoyment". Heck, I was probably killing someone's enjoyment during the fissures I did yesterday as I was doing nearly all(70-95%) of the kills/damage in them, while using valkyr and secura lecta only. Does that mean valkyr and sLecta should be nerfed? Or perhaps nerf slide attack damage? Well, if you ask me, the problem wasn't what I was using, problem was me being faster than anyone else. To me it sounds like the right solution would be to put a checkbox in navigation that reads: "[ ] I want 15minute exterminates" rather than nerfing more stuff.

The nerfs on Simulor and Tonkor weren't that big in my eyes. I mean yes, their on paper DPS got lower, but their burst potential stayed the same. Simulor still does the same aoe damage, it's just slower as you have to stack and detonate for it (fire, fire, detonate, repeat instead of fire, fire, fire, repeat). Tonkor damage is still the same as it was before for anyone who didn't have argon scope, you just can't shotgun-mode with it anymore or you'll kill yourself. You can still pull the same things off with the weapons (or use something else, like Ignis), you just have to work more for the same results. So  if you asked me, I would say DE did the changes to shut the whiners up, not because they saw the weapons as huge gameplay issues. I mean, if they really did see them as a problem, they surely would have nerfed the actual damage rather than just making them slower/harder to use and done the changes much faster.

Ember isn't any bigger really, it's just more common because you can get her as early as Saturn and has mastery rank req. of 0. So anyone is more likely to see Ember rather than any of the others.

To repeat myself; if something needs to be changed, it's the scaling (but then again that's issue for almost all of the warframes and their damaging abilities) and to make her 3 more useful or rework it completely. Other than that, I think she is fine and there are frames that are more in need of help/change.

 

Ps. I bet that at least half of the whiners (="nerf this, nerf that") would go away if they removed damage done and kill counter from the statistic screen. And no, my Mirage/Ash/Boltace/Tonkor usage is at 0-2% so I'm not butthurt with the changes, I just didn't think any of these needed changes nor were they problems if someone used them in my public games. Yes, my Simulor usage much higher at 18%, but that's mainly because it was the only fully forma'ed weapon I had for the longest and played alot of endless so its in-mission time is much higher than others even though I've been mainly using other weapons for the past 6+ months. 

Sorry for any typos, just woke up :)

Edited April 4, 2017 by Vilmu

[Djego27]

On 3.4.2017 at 7:59 PM, Rolunde said:

And for people that really do like Ember, wouldn't it be nice if she were totally viable for Sortie-3 and beyond?! Instead of largely having a frame meta of

"only farm (re: 'speed run') low-level missions and frame swap if going over level 50".

Ember is kind of a comfortable frame to do your daily sorti solo if you really like the frame with the downside, that I explained before in the topic, that the frame is very gear depended and archive it's scaling with accelerant and weapons specificity build around that ability. Make no mistake Ember can be a incredible powerful CC frame with status weapons(that can solo all kinds of defence stuff with it) while being a very hard hitting damage frame at the same time. It is just that how to archive that is:

A: not being obvious, while not being broken for people that figured it out(like I did say farily balanced dps frame, that does perform quite balanced compared to other damage frames, like Saryn)

B: Status is hardly used this days so people are not that familiar with all the things you can do with it and that accelerant by it's single damage type bonus scales better on status weapons than damage weapons what you see above, chewing through L100 nearly as fast as though L20 grenier with a shotgun that got so much spread and so little base damage that it is hardly used at all, even as prime weapon.

C: Ember does require a player with a good understanding of when to play offensive and defensive as well as very quick HP and shield regeneration to work(you will still die to one hit damage, till DE figures out that unlimited scaling of things that already should hurt on lower levels is one of the main things that turns a overall enjoyable shooter with super powers into boring sessions of standing around and pressing buttons at higher levels).

People are actually right if they complain that the frame, if you only use WoF, is no big use at higher levels, while the way around that is complex and ultimately only leads to something that is quite comparable with other damage frames for punch. Keep in mind Ember was much more potent then most other damage frames back in the days before certain weapons, crit mods and frame rebalances, one of the reasons why I play it as main. It is in some ways a bit disappointing given that playing Ember right is difficult and that it is pure glass at high levels, however it is unlikely to ever see that kind of Ember again outside of a damage 3.0 done right, what is again very unlikely. However she still keeps her added benefit of far better CC as a trade off that you have to compensate very good for your low HP to stay on your feet.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Djego27

[Djego27]

On 3.4.2017 at 7:49 AM, Medane said:

That really doesn't help any of those frames cases and in fact, highlights another problem entirely.  The problem with many of the older Warframe skills is that they were built to compliment and serve as their own damage in addition to firearms and melee.  (I don't think the devs expected people to play to the infinite scaling meta early on, of which I think the meta is cancerous anyway). Slash Dash, Radial Javelin, etc, Fireball, WoF.  WoF's only significant change is that it does damage (and actually doesn't do much on grineer heavies past 28 anyways, but that's another story.)  That's only bandaided out with the augment mods that gives it knockdown to reduce enemy damage, which really doesn't contribute much to her damage.  The only other ability she received was the change of her 2, from a 90% damage reduction to the firebuff/CC we have now, which is basically the only skill you described that's used for damage.  Not very thematic at all, and frankly a waste of her (again) 1 and 3 abilities which are left in the dust.  I'm not saying she alone should be carried by her abilities, but that's exactly what her four does to begin with (to a negative extent), which ends up being nullified in usefulness later on from scaling (damage wise.)  Then, her only useful gimmick from there is her 2.  Most frames do have two trash abilities anyways, but Ember suffers from it far more because they're almost literally useless at scaling.  

((ALSO, CAN I SAY IT'S REALLY NICE TO ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO WRITE LONG TEXTS WITH THOUGHT AND HAVE REASONABLE DEBATES HERE?  You're all awesome for not devolving this to over-generalizations for the most part.))

@ literally the entire thread, this won't be solved until Ember is completely reworked.  WoF is effective but requires too little effort at lower levels but is completely unrewarding at higher levels.  However, the reason most people don't want to change ember is 1: her current place in the meta that most people do not want to disrupt, and 2: her other abilities flat out suck (effectively useless past certain levels), meaning that any changes to WoF results in tentative debates on imbalance.  We can't go anywhere unless we rip it all out from the roots and rework her entirely.  

Depends, I do not consider being relaying on gun play to be a flaw, it is a co op shooter with super powers in the end,

Most of the abilities scale a bit higher than you might assume. WoF in particular is subject to double scaling by the accelerant mechanic, if you add status from weapons to the mix 18k fire damage(can up to 44k+ with viral vs flesh/light infested) per hit with the dot is quite good, even at L100.

It is correct that accelerant is the main ability to give Ember punch in high level content and to stay alive at the same time. I actually would call it very thematic, since different to any other damage buffing ability it only does cover the element of your frame, what makes it kind of a personal damage buff in pugs, since people not suddenly start to run around weapons build around fire damage, even with the amount of Embers around.

As for Fireball, it does the same what most 1 abilities do, it is a quick CC what you can do during reload. Could it be more interesting and useful? Yes, it could but then again DE would have to redo the 1 on a lot of frames. Compared to them it is actually fine(scales a bit better to).

Fire Blast is a niche AOE denieal tool that just does not work and is hardly used outside of revives(where the  push back is more useful to protect you a few seconds from melee units). Make the hole ring burn by default and give it a high status chance to slow down stuff with a fire proc. Make the augment triple the duration and set the status chance to 100% so it becomes just as chilling globe a good area denial tool(back in the days of duration snow globe the trick was not to put a snow globe on the excavator but snow globe all the spawn points towards the excavator, where you can play L200+ excavation with hardly firing a singe shot outside of energy cell carriers that you need to kill to progress).

The extra CC and damage is quite worth it to run WoF at high levels, different to before the rework where you did die in the cast animation quite a lot and it was not really worth the energy, given that it only lasted 8s. You basically played Ember at high levels without WoF, similar to how you play Ember melee, you just spam accelerant since WoF disables rage what is a massive blow to your QT survivability, does next to no CC, has no range, no damage and gets you killed guaranteed. The reason I have no issues with changes to the current WoF is that the false expectation of safety at higher levels can make it just as lethal to you as it is to low level units.

While it is correct that most frames got 1-2 dominant abilities and the rest hardly used, Ember is not really a exception to that. What you describe as a scaling problem of her abilities is like I stated before more a issue how good or bad Ember scales with certain weapons and building around accelerant. Basically people that complain about Ember stops being effective at L50 and me pointing out you can solo all your sortis with it are both right, since Ember can be all of that at the same time, this is how much gear instead of ability use plays a key role with the frame. The scaling is there, it is just hard to impossible to acquire for most people and does not really produce game breaking results but something that is more or less in line with other damage frames while being a bit different in application.

Edit: In many ways Ember is considered bad because there is so much OP stuff and since it is a rather balanced frame in a totally unbalanced game, what diminishes her strength and show off her weaknesses, compared to frames that do not come with any because of bad balance, compared to perma invisibility, god mode, unlimited scaling damage and dps weapons that make status weapons look like a joke even far beyond L100. Back in the days Ember was not better by doing more damage then now, it was better because other people had limitations just as you, while having a harder time to overcome that limitations, since Ember in the end has not only the flaw to be gear depended(similar to power strength) but also scales better then other frames with it. This means you do not solve a problem you run into with Ember at level X, you kind of solve it for all levels, what means you run around with the same low dps weapon at L10 as you do at L100, while it kills nearly at the same speed, because there is no other frame in the game is so much status depended, it has the bigger benefit to Ember as on other frames(no you can play Saryn without gas, and it is just as much if not more dps as with it) and comes at zero damage cost what is different to any other damage frame in the game. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Djego27

[Xana_Skullsunder]

17 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Eh, no.

If I choose a color scheme and happen to be in the relay doing my usual stuff, and someone happens to be deeply offended by my color scheme to the point that it's a negative impact on their gameplay experience, what should happen in that scenario?

Ha. Nice try. It's like you're trotting out the weakest counters you can imagine. There's a pretty big difference between "wow who colored this frame" and "I am unable to PLAY THE GAME because of this player's actions". Trying to equate the two is intellectually dishonest at best.

[Almagnus1]

23 hours ago, taiiat said:

hm... you can do that and collect the Resources you're looking for just fine. just so long as you play a variety of Missions across areas so that you get some of all of the Resources that you need and will need.
(that's what i've done, little to no dedicated grinding - ever - avoiding it whenever possible)

Now we're running into one of the issues that a lot of long time vets don't quite get (which also happens to be an issue for off and on players like myself):

If you've been around and been playing a lot every day for years, you're going to have significantly more of all the basic resources (perhaps even Nitain) than someone who has either just started, or doesn't play consistently.  For the long time vets, they're so used to their higher resource counts that they're not really cognizant of issues that newer players have with the rarer resources because it's been a long time since they've had to deal with them.

There needs to be catch up mechanisms in place so that a newer player can somewhat rapidly get the resources needed - which is why Old Draco was such a good place to grind out weapons (because it also dropped a ton of Orokin Cells).  That's where a frame like WoF Ember comes in handy.

12 hours ago, Vilmu said:

Ps. I bet that at least half of the whiners (="nerf this, nerf that") would go away if they removed damage done and kill counter from the statistic screen. And no, my Mirage/Ash/Boltace/Tonkor usage is at 0-2% so I'm not butthurt with the changes, I just didn't think any of these needed changes nor were they problems if someone used them in my public games. Yes, my Simulor usage much higher at 18%, but that's mainly because it was the only fully forma'ed weapon I had for the longest and played alot of endless so its in-mission time is much higher than others even though I've been mainly using other weapons for the past 6+ months. 

I'm betting that's at the core of this issue.

"Someone did X better than I did, therefore they must be nerfed!"

1 hour ago, XanaSkullpulper said:

Ha. Nice try. It's like you're trotting out the weakest counters you can imagine. There's a pretty big difference between "wow who colored this frame" and "I am unable to PLAY THE GAME because of this player's actions". Trying to equate the two is intellectually dishonest at best.

Well, you said the problem was to "decrease your enjoyment of said experience", does it really matter what happens if enjoyment of the experience is decreased?

You're the one that started down the intellectually dishonest path, I'm just pointing out the idiocy of your argument =/

[(XBOX)Slimm qp ReapeR]

I don't understand how WOF needs a nerf considering its damage fall off is instantly noticeable when you get to level 40-ish enemies. A rework maybe but her 4th is not OP. It may seem that way to the casual player though

[DeadScream]

11 hours ago, (Xbox One)Slimm qp ReapeR said:

I don't understand how WOF needs a nerf considering its damage fall off is instantly noticeable when you get to level 40-ish enemies. A rework maybe but her 4th is not OP. It may seem that way to the casual player though

Dood, did you read the post ? :p 

It's clearly OP on low-mid levels because it's basically able to steal Ember's own kills because it burns everything before you even see it. 

This rework thread is about making it stronger but less AFKable. Simply that.

+ some fancy things about Fire Ball and Fire Blast but nobody noticed lol

[Djego27]

On 4.4.2017 at 0:33 AM, taiiat said:

that's a simple to solve issue that Digital Extremes simply has never done - anything with AoE having two Ranges:

one Range, LoS abiding
a second smaller Range, non LoS abiding

then you can make sure it hits things that are "WTF IT'S RIGHT THERE", but still prevent things from hitting everything that exists at once.
problem solved, really.

The problem is most likely that DE only uses one point on a target(most likely in the centre of the unit or item) to what makes even small objects block LOS. While units should have multiple points on them to check for LoS to prevent lessen this problems your walk around of combining full AOE at for example the first 10m would already help a lot, given that you see so often that targets halve around the corner but literally next to the target you shot are not affected by the AOE or even a small cover protects against LOS mechanics.

[Almagnus1]

5 hours ago, DeadScream said:

Dood, did you read the post ? :p 

It's clearly OP on low-mid levels because it's basically able to steal Ember's own kills because it burns everything before you even see it. 

This rework thread is about making it stronger but less AFKable. Simply that.

I don't think there's a way to pull that off without a complete overhaul of the ember kit.  However...

5 hours ago, DeadScream said:

+ some fancy things about Fire Ball and Fire Blast but nobody noticed lol

The 1 is useless, but I use 2 then 3 quite a bit, as that provides a pretty good burst and annihilates a group of guys on most of the start chart missions that I'm running ember on.

So I would argue that the 3 isn't useless, it's just useless without casting 2 first.

The 1, on the other hand, only gets used for the affinity quest.

[taiiat]

21 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

For the long time vets, they're so used to their higher resource counts that they're not really cognizant of issues that newer players have with the rarer resources because it's been a long time since they've had to deal with them.

There needs to be catch up mechanisms in place so that a newer player can somewhat rapidly get the resources needed - which is why Old Draco was such a good place to grind out weapons (because it also dropped a ton of Orokin Cells).  That's where a frame like WoF Ember comes in handy.

hm.... i'm not out of touch, i always represent the same group as Newer Players from avoiding AFKFarming whenever possible - i have stockpiles of everything for sure, but these stockpiles continuously increase on a regular basis.
because Rare Resources are available, you need only actually play Missions where you can get them from time to time. if you wait until you need this or that to build something right now then it's your fault, not that the game isn't letting you have those Resources.

and with Resource Pots, objectively the Resource Costs of crafting things actually should be going up across the board in particular for Rare Resources, because they're multiplicatively more common than they were before then....
Resource Pots are nuts, what Players that mistakenly on their part didn't plan ahead would have been doing in the past to get Rare Resources, such as one Rotation on Defense or Survival(so about 20 minutes give or take)... instead now they play like a handful of Capture Missions, and have several times more Rare Resources on average, in all of like 5, 10 minutes tops.

 

you want 'catch up' ? well you got it, Rare Resources are everywhere in high volumes. tons of them. objectively. again, Resource Pots are nuts.
if you don't consider that a way to 'catch up', then perfect - you don't need one, with how common these Resources are.

 

but i'm just a long time Player that thought that Control Modules were very fair when other Players were whining endlessly about them, when the Hyena Boss Fight at the time gave you one ~1/5 encounters, which since each encounter would take but a few minutes, was not much being asked for in Gameplay.
and nowadays you have the same sort of relation, except instead of a boss you're smashing Resource Pots. and getting more Rare Resources than that, notably more.

Edited April 5, 2017 by taiiat

[Almagnus1]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

hm.... i'm not out of touch, i always represent the same group as Newer Players from avoiding AFKFarming whenever possible - i have stockpiles of everything for sure, but these stockpiles continuously increase on a regular basis.
because Rare Resources are available, you need only actually play Missions where you can get them from time to time. if you wait until you need this or that to build something right now then it's your fault, not that the game isn't letting you have those Resources.

Oh great, the "you don't know what you're doing, therefore your argument is invalid" argument...

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

and with Resource Pots, objectively the Resource Costs of crafting things actually should be going up across the board in particular for Rare Resources, because they're multiplicatively more common than they were before then....
Resource Pots are nuts, what Players that mistakenly on their part didn't plan ahead would have been doing in the past to get Rare Resources, such as one Rotation on Defense or Survival(so about 20 minutes give or take)... instead now they play like a handful of Capture Missions, and have several times more Rare Resources on average, in all of like 5, 10 minutes tops.

That's why I've been running spy missions with Master Thief + Thief's Wit + Animal Instinct, as Spy and Hive have been a fairly reliable way to get the rare materials - at least from my experience.  Where WoF makes that easier is by allowing me to basically keep the mobs at a minimum because I'm hunting for the rare resource nodes (and tend to come across several through the course of a mission).

And then there's always time spent grinding out bosses for the warframes and weapons, which helps a lot.  The real problem with weapons comes from the Prime weapons, which (on average) requires 10 orokin cells for Lotus only knows why.

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

you want 'catch up' ? well you got it, Rare Resources are everywhere in high volumes. tons of them. objectively. again, Resource Pots are nuts.
if you don't consider that a way to 'catch up', then perfect - you don't need one, with how common these Resources are.

And those require platinum or Baro being around - which means the newer players can either choose to spend plat on the boosters, or on forma, exilus adapters, or potatoes to get their frames and weapons up to par.

While it does solve the problem, it's not optimal in the least.

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

but i'm just a long time Player that thought that Control Modules were very fair when other Players were whining endlessly about them, when the Hyena Boss Fight at the time gave you one ~1/5 encounters, which since each encounter would take but a few minutes, was not much being asked for in Gameplay.
and nowadays you have the same sort of relation, except instead of a boss you're smashing Resource Pots. and getting more Rare Resources than that, notably more.

That must have been before my time...

The other problem I sense running throughout this thread is that "it should be just as hard for them as it was for me".

[taiiat]

44 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

The real problem with weapons comes from the Prime weapons, which (on average) requires 10 orokin cells for Lotus only knows why.

And those require platinum or Baro being around - which means the newer players can either choose to spend plat on the boosters, or on forma, exilus adapters, or potatoes to get their frames and weapons up to par.

The other problem I sense running throughout this thread is that "it should be just as hard for them as it was for me".

so instead of 10 or 20 minutes to press Craft without having planned ahead, half an hour or an hour tops.

Plat for what? not a single word i was talking about had anything to do with spending Plat.

 

it already isn't, by far - with those Resource Pots, Rare Resources aren't Rare anymore. Blueprints all set around before Resource Pots, but now Rare Resources are ~6x as common, Et Cetera.
which means that those Blueprints are changed significantly from when the costs were set.

options are good, non Endless Missions being relevant for Resources is good. but that's better than Endless Missions, so the same thing happens in reverse, one is simply better than the other.

 

the other problem i see running throughout is "it should always be easier/faster, i should get it all now because because".

Edited April 6, 2017 by taiiat

[Almagnus1]

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

so instead of 10 or 20 minutes to press Craft without having planned ahead, half an hour or an hour tops.

.... What?  Please make sense...

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Plat for what? not a single word i was talking about had anything to do with spending Plat.

Your "resource pot" is really http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Resource_Drop_Chance_Booster , right?

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

it already isn't, by far - with those Resource Pots, Rare Resources aren't Rare anymore. Blueprints all set around before Resource Pots, but now Rare Resources are ~6x as common, Et Cetera.
which means that those Blueprints are changed significantly from when the costs were set.

Weapons that I have crafted/in queue that use a lot of Orokin Cells:

Bo Prime, Dakra Prime, Glaive Prime, Orthos Prime, Reaper Prime, Scindo Prime, Nikana Prime, Venka Prime, Galatine Prime, Fragor Prime, Bronco Prime x2, Lex Prime x2, Sicarus Prime, Vasto Prime, Spira Prime, Hikou Prime, Braton Prime, Latron Prime, Burston Prime, Soma Prime, Vectis Prime, and Boar Prime.  That's a total of 261 orokin cells to make all of those items by the way.

Then there's the "fun" that is gathering the materials to make Vauban Prime and Nekros Prime.

So I think I might know a thing or two about farming, so please stop trying to "educate" me...

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

the other problem i see running throughout is "it should always be easier/faster, i should get it all now because because".

Riiiight...

If that were the case, why am I **NOT** complaining about having to wait until C rotation on defense, survival, and interception missions before you start getting mass amounts of the rare resources?  Because I'm not.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

.... What?  Please make sense...

Your "resource pot" is really http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Resource_Drop_Chance_Booster , right?

instead of the 10/20 min one would normally spend to get a few of a Rare Resource, if you need just shy of a dozen at some point, then you just double up that time and that's really not much.

no, Resource Pots are Pots that drop specific Resources. there's one for every type of Resource. yno, like these?

(Pots being a term dragged from the old days of Zelda - smashables)