"Nerf" World On Fire by making Ember stronger

[Djego27]

2 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

Thing is, it took me 9 Formas to have viable endgame Ember, and she has received at least 2 "patches" in the last 2 years, so no, your suggestion does not make her more interesting, and even if it is more powerful it still trashes the standar and hardcore Ember player.

As a final thought I'll repeat this: The problem people have with Ember occurs on public matchmaking, nowhere else. That's the root of the problem.

It was actually more, while the accelerant fix is older than that(and was the most problematic one by far, given that you had to play a frame that is extreme reliant on CC with a accelerant that did not re stun targets that where still under the effect what made duration your worst enemy in the game at high levels) if my memory serves me right it started with the armor buff, speed buff, cast time on WoF buff and fire blast eximus wave. Then came the double base duration of accelerant(what was a god send given that you did run mostly negative duration back then) then the cast time speed buff on accelerant that made the WoF animation quick but odd looking, then the shield buff on the prime and endless WoF what also provided being immune to energy drain, then the nerf that you are like now always out of energy thx to stackable energy leech auras and eximus re spawning just as quick as you can kill them(aura stacking is horrible, it was horrible with the healers back in the days that could make each other nearly not kill able and it is still horrible, remove aura stacking and remove the ability to get aura protection on eximus units, you implemented it yourself before and it works bug free and with a positive effect on the endgame) and recently the flash accelerant buff.

I do not think public matchmaking is a issue in a co op game(afk leeching mostly done by high MR players, that know exactly that playing the mission yourself if a waste of time and there is nothing the other players can do against it, however is). If you take aside low level WoF nuking(what probably is the only thing 95% of the people that play the frame do) it is a fairly decently balanced frame that does all right at high levels in a very poorly balanced game(where everything one shots you, where animation lock or lag can make it rng at it's best and everything becomes massive bullet sponges at high levels). That used to have aim botting hit scan weapons against solo players or hosts(you missed a ton of fun where everything on the hole map did actually hit you non stop in grenier missions as long as it got line of sight and it was actually fixed halve a year after the fix that should deal with it, what it did not, with the spawning changes). Absurd enemy damage scaling is also bad and just as bad as giving players absurd frame powers to make that work in some wired way only DE could come up with(lets scale everything exponential and make the game the boring stand around and press a button at high levels or the invisibility, god mode or cheat death mechanic cheese because the damage is no where in line with the HP the players actually have). Future more Ember is more then other frames victim to DEs way of balancing guns, what is sometimes done actually good(like prisma grakata vs soma prime vs braton prime at high levels, or brakk vs detron, at least in the 2. try with the mara version). This is mostly because you do not need a gun that is broken on every single frame, you need a gun that can be modded in a specific way and is effective with that modding even if it is considered not that good(like the mara detron or boar prime that you never see, but the mara detron is rediculus good because it can be modded radiation\viral\fire that at least on Ember kills every faction till L100 with ease or the boar prime, if you got a riven to make it work on Ember you will forget that something like armor scaling is even in the game). Or you just throw all that out of the window and release stuff like the staticor that is the Tonkor\Synoid Simulor of status weapons(what is actually worse then dps weapons, because most status weapons got bad usability and utility and tons of drawbacks to them to justify her for most weapons not even existing better scalability, thx to massive crit and aoe dps power creep we seen during the last 2 years).

I did low level WoF framing with Ember when the frame was considered to be very bad at it(because pressing 4 3 hole time per minute and actually point your gun at stuff that should die quick is so much work) and I did 1h solo survival runs in the old void without WoF(since it was most of the time a death trap with the casting animation and more expensive/less reliable then just spamming accelerant). I do not see a big problem in reworking it as long as the CC still works as it does now, even if I would actually like to see something that actually helps a bit with the scaling(like having a another 60k dot damage on a target that you just hit for 140k with rakta cernos crit) because you really need that damage sometimes.

This is the April fool 1h infested survival done solo, I really wish they handed out a primed ammo drum or a separate mod(can be as useless as ammo drum) just for the collectors value.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Djego27

[Justice_Ember]

47 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

I do not think public matchmaking is a issue in a co op game(afk leeching mostly done by high MR players, that know exactly that playing the mission yourself if a waste of time and there is nothing the other players can do against it, however is)

So ultimately the problem are the players that take advantage of a certain playstyle. Again, nothing to do with WoF

47 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

 If you take aside low level WoF nuking(what probably is the only thing 95% of the people that play the frame do) it is a fairly decently balanced frame that does all right at high levels in a very poorly balanced game(where everything one shots you, where animation lock or lag can make it rng at it's best and everything becomes massive bullet sponges at high levels).

It is a fairly balanced frame, however even if that percentage is something you took out of yer arse it is the predominant perception, that Ember only use is that of speedruns, and THAT is the issue.

[Djego27]

It is not really about pressing 4 and going afk, it is about actually just going afk while doing nothing, knowing that other players can not do anything about it, you still get all the rewards with a macro or just pressing a button from time to time and exploiting the weak stance towards it by DE. It is not really about the WoF, press 4 and run to the exit or run to the pod and press 4 game play. While I do not like that, because it is fairly passive and does not do a good job to make warframe a engaging co op game that got the most impressive movement and options how to engage(in most shooters you can just run and shoot, that is about it) and fairly good gun play for a non competitive shooter, it is in the game and a fair choice for people to use(like a lot of other weird stuff).

The number is what I kind of see online in the game in public matches, given that I can count the people on one hand that actively defend Ember as a fairly high DPS frame(justified to some degree but also often just fuelled by bias, rating Ember higher by personal preference instead of real power, I play Ember most of the time solo but I have no issues to switch to something that is really needed or useful in specific missions) on the forum compared to the amount of people that claim bad scaling(every single thread, every single you tube video, every single public display of the frame by random players in public matches). In my opinion the problem is mostly that Ember for most players is just WoF and every complain about Ember does not scale comes down to WoF does not scale as damage ability, while it actually is much much stronger as a accelerant weapon damage fuelled frame, while lacking a bigger amount of weapons that work(the reason why I suggest a base status chance buff on accelerant, what is unique and brings Ember back to what it used to be, a frame that can just add all kind of status effect to it's main source of dps, while losing like no dps with status weapons or status modding because you only scale with the fire damage on the weapon).

If a frame is called out for bad scaling overall(while that is actually not true) because of how a ability transforms from map clear to pure CC(what a lot of abilities on frames do, while WoF is actually significant stronger then things most other frames have when it comes to scaling, since you can combine it with accelerant and it scales twice as good with power strength) it could need some work. Just take Equinox, between the WoF rework and it's release it was actually doing the WoF thing Ember is currently doing better and was a very common sight because of the higher range and armor ignore by slash procs. However the funny thing is that this people did not even scratch the surface of it's power, while this is similar to Ember as well if you do not use status or crit/head shots to give your fire damage scaling, Equinox can scale a lot less limited by weapons(every weapon will do) and can be the best dps frame in endless mission with a 2. equinox what is way better scaling than Ember even with all the tricks and all the special weapons can hope to archive currently. You can not call out Equinox for bad scaling(people would laugh at you) you can't call it out of weapon incompatibility(status, damage, crit everything works) and you can not call it out for the lack of utility(because it got a metric ton of it).

Edit: The issue is mostly that Ember can be fairly good, but mostly it is not, because the real power is not based around your abilities like it is with any other frame but based around specific weapons and a kind of unconventional play style(not as much as much as solo melee only 1h void survival without life strike, without armor and without HP mods with mag before the rework, but fairly close by simply removing all normal restricions).

All things considered Ember could really need something to push people more into actually using  accelerant while lessening the issue that it will be even perfectly modded on the frame mostly pointless if you do not use the few weapons in the game that work really well with it.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Djego27

[RunningTree3]

Back to the original topic, my suggestions to improve Ember's kit without touching WoF at all would be:

1. Give Fireball combo-casting bonuses. e.g. Cast within 2 seconds for half energy cost, 2x damage. Combo a third time for quarter energy cost, 4x damage.

This would make Fireball the ability to use for concentrated firepower. It will also take advantage of the increased casting speed that Accelerant already can provide.

2. Let Fire Blast's ring be modified by Power Range mods.

This would make Fire Blast much more useful for area denial.

[Justice_Ember]

4 minutes ago, RunningTree3 said:

2. Let Fire Blast's ring be modified by Power Range mods.

This would make Fire Blast much more useful for area denial.

This is the only improvement I can get behind. Fireball 🔥 should stay the same as a first ability

[DeadScream]

2 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

This is the only improvement I can get behind. Fireball 🔥 should stay the same as a first ability

I don't understand why you are against many ideas that would in practice make Ember far stronger without even alterating her playstyle that much...

[Djego27]

2 hours ago, RunningTree3 said:

Back to the original topic, my suggestions to improve Ember's kit without touching WoF at all would be:

1. Give Fireball combo-casting bonuses. e.g. Cast within 2 seconds for half energy cost, 2x damage. Combo a third time for quarter energy cost, 4x damage.

This would make Fireball the ability to use for concentrated firepower. It will also take advantage of the increased casting speed that Accelerant already can provide.

While it is a one handed ability and ember already scales twice as much as other frames by power strength(with accelerant) I do not see how even 4 times the damage could help, since that would still be only 16k fire damage with 200% power strength, while the basic function and what it is normally used for is similar to a lot of other frames.

2 hours ago, RunningTree3 said:

2. Let Fire Blast's ring be modified by Power Range mods.

 

This would make Fire Blast much more useful for area denial.

The problem is more that only the edges(around 1m from the animation towards the centre) produce a heat proc, what does not really stop stuff, given that they just step through it slightly slower in practical game play.

[Justice_Ember]

6 minutes ago, DeadScream said:

I don't understand why you are against many ideas that would in practice make Ember far stronger without even alterating her playstyle that much...

At this point I'm honestly considering suggesting a new fire wf just to stop people complaining about Ember. 

[Djego27]

How would that solve the issue that many people do not like the AOE spam of Ember or other frames in nearly every low level mission and people complaining about bad scaling of the frame since years while you could replace the word Ember in pretty much any of that posts with World on Fire, because this is what people complain about?

I play ember every time I log in, with the exception of some sorti conditions that would make it pointless(mostly elemental damage resistance or bow/sniper only vs corpus where your CC is kind of useless by the nullifier spam and you do not have a weapon to bring down that bubbles quick) or farming focus on another frame with a different lens. I can get behind a WoF change, simply because it performs a bit to strong at low levels with pure passive game play(if you want to press a few buttons, including the left on your mouse button there are better options) and because people will kind of reduce Ember to WoF anyway(same as Rino with Iron Skin what is shame because all of his other abilities are amazing for what they do) so why not give that people what they ask for, a bit better scaling with WoF.

[DeadScream]

12 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

so why not give that people what they ask for, a bit better scaling with WoF.

because "hardcore" Ember players enjoy AFK farming xD 

nah, sorry, just trolling. 

 

If I can, I'll show myself sincere about this post. In fact, even my main Warframe Banshee's SQ should be completely overhauled in my opinion, for the same reasons as WoF for the most part...

[Djego27]

Well you can play Banshee perfectly fine without SQ, same as Ember without WoF. Then again SQ does fill a need at high levels(perfect AOE CC) at expense of having any real game play with the frame what is in many ways worse then WoF on Ember.

I do not think that there is a "hardcore" Ember player base, since you can do what people do with Ember at low levels just as good or in some cases better with other frames, it is just something what is currently suggested online as the "best way to do it", same as it was called bad for a long time where seeing another Ember was fairly rare, even if the frame could do more or less the same thing as it can now at lower levels. It is just the current meta thing, it will go away like all metas do and I would prefer it to go away by solving some issues(less low level hands free killing power and a bit more scalability) instead of just being replaced by the next best thing and then not looked at it again for the next 1-2 years.

[polarity]

Rather than make small changes to what is basically 'push 4 to walking simulator' for much of the game, I'd rather see something completely different for Ember's ultimate, that actually requires something of the player in order to set up some huge damage.

Maybe something that turns Ember into the epicenter of a fire tornado for the duration, like a mobile Vauban Vortex but with less pull strength (enough that enemies can't avoid being drawn in, but no flying into it) and more damage in a really focused area.  That would go well with her glass-cannon feel, where instead of Vortex being defensive, as it keeps enemies away from you, fire tornado is far more offensive, at the risk of being overwhelmed by the number of enemies drawn in.  It would synergise well with accelerant and ring of fire, as you'd need a stun to protect yourself from enemies that are stuck near you, and ring of fire would damage enemies before they got to you, as they crossed its damage area.

Alternatively some kind of backdraft/flashover ability could give a big burst of damage over a larger area, depending on a charge-up time.  When activated an area could grow around Ember where fire starts burning, but oxygen is kept out filling the air with soot and yellowish smoke.  Enemies in this area would have a small chance of getting affected by a relatively low damage fire proc, which increases the longer the ability is charged up, as does the radius of the slow burning area (energy is consumed while charging).  Beyond a threshold charge time enemies would also suffer from the lack of oxygenin the area, providing a more reliable CC (threshold point could be affected by stats to vary builds).  When the charge-up is released a flashover rushes in towards Ember's location, causing high damage to everything in the previously soot filled space, and knocking it down/sucking it towards the center.  This ability would also synergise with pre-casted accelerant or RoF, provided it wasn't charged up for longer than either of those last.

Edited March 27, 2017 by polarity

[(PSN)Korgahn_]

Ember is my main frame. From a long time ago now.

I agree that her ultimate is "to easy".

It could also be change to a close quarter type by reducing its range a lot and increase the status so this will be deadly with melee weapons. The combo with accelerant will be more strategic.

But it will not be World of Fire anymore but "Ignite" because of its range. Like a kind of burning anger.

[Wevi]

WoF has gotten way too many changes. If people are calling a power that don't scale pass lvl 50 infested op then you might as well put a power strength cap on every single frame in the game.

[Shockwave-]

On 3/20/2017 at 0:43 PM, DeadScream said:

The whole problem is the game being completely unbalanced. 

However if you read the OP you will see my suggestions would make Ember more interesting and, in fact, more powerful than what she is currently. 

 

And also, this is a multiplayer game. I see no reason why things shouldn't be done in a way where other players can play, while keeping them powerful enough for a good solo experience.

Then you should nerf Equinox, Banshee, and Saryn first. All three outkill ember by basically standing there.... when they are done, hopefully DE will have fulfilled their nerf quota for the whiners and leave ember alone.

[DeadScream]

20 hours ago, Wevi said:

WoF has gotten way too many changes. If people are calling a power that don't scale pass lvl 50 infested op then you might as well put a power strength cap on every single frame in the game.

On one hand, you have Nidus who, with some effort, can build a very interesting strenght and resistance so he stays useful and viable in front of enemy scaling. On the other hand, you have Ember who ruins low level missions experience just by walking, while not being able to scale pass lvl 50. And you dare telling the problem is not Ember ? 

 

9 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

Then you should nerf Equinox, Banshee, and Saryn first. All three outkill ember by basically standing there.... when they are done, hopefully DE will have fulfilled their nerf quota for the whiners and leave ember alone.

SQ and Maim are the worst things, even more SQ with this stupid augment. Saryn... I don't know, maybe she is too strong on low levels too. 

Well, if you want Ember to stay weak I guess you have your reasons.

[(PSN)AtomicEyekon]

This sounds like a perfect topic to vote on when you sign into warframe go to your news and this topic will be up you can vote on the topic. Sounds perfect I know,PC can have there changes & platforms can have theirs :)

[Djego27]

On 28.3.2017 at 0:37 AM, (PS4)Kubbes said:

Ember is my main frame. From a long time ago now.

I agree that her ultimate is "to easy".

It could also be change to a close quarter type by reducing its range a lot and increase the status so this will be deadly with melee weapons. The combo with accelerant will be more strategic.

But it will not be World of Fire anymore but "Ignite" because of its range. Like a kind of burning anger.

Well you do not really use WoF in a melee build, since after modding for rage, armor and survivability WoF is just very expensive and short ranged anyway. Also before high levels it would kill stuff before you get there what makes building and keeping the melee counter up harder.

 

On 28.3.2017 at 0:05 PM, Shockwave- said:

Then you should nerf Equinox, Banshee, and Saryn first. All three outkill ember by basically standing there.... when they are done, hopefully DE will have fulfilled their nerf quota for the whiners and leave ember alone.

The meta whiners are actually much worse then people that point out what they think could be improved in the game they play. This is simply because they never present a argument what could be discussed.

For Equinox I actually do agree, Banshee not so much since while you can solo with it like with any frame it is mostly build around filling a specific support role at high levels, similar like Frost and Trinity. As for Saryn, I can no put my finger on it if people imagine Saryn to strong or Ember far to weak, probably a mix of both.

On 28.3.2017 at 9:43 PM, DeadScream said:

On one hand, you have Nidus who, with some effort, can build a very interesting strenght and resistance so he stays useful and viable in front of enemy scaling. On the other hand, you have Ember who ruins low level missions experience just by walking, while not being able to scale pass lvl 50. And you dare telling the problem is not Ember ?

Ember can scale past L50 without any issues, however WoF not so much, assuming you want it as your main tool for killing stuff. In my opinion the problem is basically that Ember is not explained very well(look up any youtube video and they will state that Ember can not scale), is incredible gear depended(much more then other frames) and is not really broken for dps at high levels to actually justify that(you could stay it was a edge case years ago with specific weapons, before syndicate weapons and crit power creep, but this days are long gone), I would actually call it a fairly honest and balanced dps frame at high levels.

On 28.3.2017 at 9:43 PM, DeadScream said:

SQ and Maim are the worst things, even more SQ with this stupid augment. Saryn... I don't know, maybe she is too strong on low levels too. 

Well, if you want Ember to stay weak I guess you have your reasons.

In Saryns case for the most part not really, since most of the tools of the frame do not work on low levels(spore spreading), AOE melee, massive HP reduction ability, simply because stuff dies to quick. Hammering just 4 after the changes last year is more or less as effective as on other frames. I for myself never really liked the Saryn changes, not because I used it all day and suddenly lost my frame to do that, but because it did not really make a one dimensional frame less one dimensional. While Saryn from time to time can be fun, I for myself find the dependence on Zenruik or rage(because of the very high energy use if you have to spam miasma for CC), the very poor single target damage, a molt that loses most of it's purpose at high levels by getting one hit killed, the lack of quick CC on spores like it is present on nearly every 1 in the game and halve a melee ability for the sake of "because it is AOE" could really need some more work.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Djego27

[Medane]

Here's my take on Ember and frankly most people attempting to balance abilities.  Keep it simple, keep it fun, don't focus on balancing excelspreadsheeting DPS because you can get 90% of the items in the game without needing to anyways.  I could care less about what happens past level 70 and sorties aren't ever going to be balanced/fair experiences without meta-gaming the heck out of them, but you don't need to do them so whatever.  

Ember's 1 and 3 are arguably the most useless abilities on her set and contribute very little to her capabilities and have little usefulness beyond low level combat unless you want to actively gimp yourself.  If we're all for making Ember more powerful, just make her 1 and 3 different and/or more powerful.  They're an AOE with an AOE on top of a more energy efficient and powerful ultimate AOE.  First off, either keep the WOF's AOE as an AOE, not some camera centric nonsense where I need to look to make enemies explode, or change it entirely.  It's fun to make enemies explode all around you without being constrained.  Abilities and their usages should be some level of catharcism; which is why I hate Mesa's new ultimate where you aim a continually shrinking camera where you're pressured to use your ability instead of having it act as a "now I have a moment of calm and cool."  The energy efficiency on WoF is something ridiculous though. so the problem with it has to stride balance between something arguably "balanced" without removing the catharcism of the ability.  That said, it also doesn't scale past level 50 because of its raw damage 0 utility build.  I unfortunately can offer no immediate solutions to WoF's current state unless we want to wipe WoF away and rework her ultimate completely.  Better to start with a new, solid foundation rather than a rickety outdated one, yes?  

Second, change it so that 1 and 3 are actually useful and fun.  Right now, they're hilariously inefficient and don't do much more than serve as fancy graphical assets.  Her 2 is a mote of a CC and a decent damage buff for her abilities that alleviates, but ultimately falls to scaling once more.  @Djego27 though, I find it amusing you say she scales well past 50 but is "incredibly gear dependent."  All that says to me is that she's carried by her weapons that can compliment her mediocre utility that's only implemented by her bandage ability mods.  At level 50+. she no longer feels like a fire caster, just another frame that falls to the issue of scaling.  

Fun ideas time, because IDC about spreadsheeting.  The idea is making the fire caster a fire caster without being limited by the constraints of the game's mechanics that reduces them to traditional wizard utility.  Also, stacking fire procs because why not.  

One of the amusing ideas I had was to replace her 4 with something like the Madurai's 5.  Pure beam of fire damage, maybe it knocks back enemies, but also has a guaranteed unique fire proc to reduce armor and stack fire.  Obviously, it falls to scaling but it removes AOE redundancy.  Another fun idea I had as to just make fire procs stack.  Short term but very bursty damage, but it doesn't go through shields like slash does.  I'd also change her passive so that she resists fire damage to around 90% and can recharge shields through the fire procs.  Maybe give her the ability to set herself on fire at some points with self inflicted AOEs (this would have to be balanced for obvious reasons) or just give her charge attacks +50% fire damage with a sexy fire effect.  Make her 1 function like magic missile and send a single projectile that functions like the original FB that doesn't track, but have 1/2/3 other projectiles of equivalent power fly out and strike enemies with a guaranteed and unique fire proc that permanently reduces their armor by a set, nonscaling percentage along with a smaller AOE.  Melt armor or something, also slows them down cause it hurts.  Make her 3 more powerfully explosive (more raw damage+knockback), and make it so that the little ring does as much damage as WoF.  It also does damage inside the ring instead of just the outside.  As for her two, I don't know?  Maybe keep it the same?  Damage and more damage to the Damage Fire Mage while giving some utility on top of damage, without a passive ring of death, solving WoF's issue of being too effective at low levels with too little interactivity.  No more passive AOE wipes, but compensated by buffing other abilities to be stronger with some element of utility, further compensated by stacking fire procs.  Also lets her make use of her natural high power pool.

Obviously I didn't care about making this balanced because no matter what you suggest, it's always going to be shot down by some guy who excel spreadsheets the current meta for level 300 enemies.  

Edited April 2, 2017 by Medane

[Almagnus1]

IMO Ember's fine as is.

She's my goto farming frame and her AoE actually works well when I'm playing with my friends that <3 CC frames.

I mean, if I'm doing high level content, I'm going to go with a different frame, and even when I need to bring the CC, Ember's not my first choice.  She's got a great niche as a farming frame, and screwing with WoF is going to force me to go find another frame.

Yeah, I get that on the lower level star chart missions WoF essentially deletes the mobs there, but that's what makes her good as a farming frame...

On 3/21/2017 at 10:17 AM, zzzNitro said:

At this point I'm honestly considering suggesting a new fire wf just to stop people complaining about Ember. 

Then they'll complain about the next frame until everything is nerfed but their favorite gear...

Best thing is for DE to do nothing because WoF is fine as is.

[Djego27]

On 2.4.2017 at 9:44 PM, Medane said:

@Djego27 though, I find it amusing you say she scales well past 50 but is "incredibly gear dependent."  All that says to me is that she's carried by her weapons that can compliment her mediocre utility that's only implemented by her bandage ability mods.  At level 50+. she no longer feels like a fire caster, just another frame that falls to the issue of scaling. 

That is not entirely true. Sure a strong weapon helps, like on any frame but the effectiveness of a weapon for you is entirely depended on how good it can improve fire scaling and not really how powerful it is in the hands of other frames. This weapons do not even have to be top of the line, however most of them are fairly specific, so are the mods you need.

Take the Mara detron. Do you think another frame would have a good time with a status modded radiation/viral/fire shotgun pistol with a ridiculous spread as it's only weapon while soloing a tier 3 infested Excavation sorti? I don't, you would have a incredible bad time with that gun in that mission. On Ember however it is the best thing since sliced bread against Infested, not because it is the best weapon in the game but it actually does add aura ignore to all your frame based fire damage, your weapon damage as well as preventing your CC to get sucked up by healers, what is incredible powerful and makes Ember actually really really good at dealing with high level infested(different to common believe Ember is actually considerable weaker vs infested then any other faction at high levels because Healers do not only reduce your damage to nothing, they do the same with your CC).

It is also not only weapons, but also figuring out how to make a squishy frame able to take some serious beating at higher levels, what can not be archive by mods per see but has to be archived by constant and very rapid shield and health restoration, the reason why I use a raksa kubrow and specific build glaive prime is just that.

It is a bit like not calling Saryn a caster because things stop to die when you press 4. What you do is press 1 and shoot stuff with AOE gas weapons or what is actually even quicker and scales probably a lot better then it should with a acid shell sobek(45% of the total HP damage on kill  as AOE is fairly powerful if you have the hole map at 50% HP and dots ticking on them, even beyond L100).

Volt, Mag, Saryn, Nova etc. there are many Frames that actually relay on weapons to give certain abilities scalability. It is just a bit different on Ember and for the most part much more extreme.

 

On 2.4.2017 at 10:42 PM, Almagnus1 said:

IMO Ember's fine as is.

She's my goto farming frame and her AoE actually works well when I'm playing with my friends that <3 CC frames.

I mean, if I'm doing high level content, I'm going to go with a different frame, and even when I need to bring the CC, Ember's not my first choice.  She's got a great niche as a farming frame, and screwing with WoF is going to force me to go find another frame.

Yeah, I get that on the lower level star chart missions WoF essentially deletes the mobs there, but that's what makes her good as a farming frame...

It is not really a niche when a lot of frames can do it(yeah even rino can run through a exterminate and press 4 ever 40 meters). It just requires less button pressing, movement and thinking in the end, what is the main reason it is used so much. Then again if you look into ranges, builds and what damage you need for certain levels most people actually should use Equinox instead of Ember(bigger range, armor ignore, self heal, press 4 if something refuses to die, ability to redirect weapon damage that is more single target, like a tigris prime as massive AOE by the press of a button).

I play Ember every day and I would not ditch her over a WoF change, I did play her every day when she was considered terrible as well, even if you could do exactly the same thing back then with the frame as you can do now. It is kind of funny, because people actually did next to no damage back in the days without tonkors, simulors, gamacores, syndicate weapons, broken crit mods, while Embers dps did not change that much over the years. It is peaty much "If everybody is special, nobody is!".

The only niche that Ember fills is being the least understood dps frame in the game, to a point where people relay on one ability that does what they define as the function of the frame by the press of a button and it's rng AOE mechanic. Ember was quite powerful without WoF back in the days and even now she does all right without it. The problem is just that why would you play a fairly different frame, with different weapons, that is a bit harder to play then most if there are so many options that can do the same thing just as good. The answer in my case would be simply because I never really looked into other options, because you could do things with Ember well enught. How is yours?

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

50 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

The only niche that Ember fills is being the least understood dps frame in the game, to a point where people relay on one ability that does what they define as the function of the frame by the press of a button and it's rng AOE mechanic. Ember was quite powerful without WoF back in the days and even now she does all right without it. The problem is just that why would you play a fairly different frame, with different weapons, that is a bit harder to play then most if there are so many options that can do the same thing just as good.

Except that she's strictly inferior to my sortie Inaros build, doesn't do enough focused DPS to replace Exalted Blade Excalibur, is a horrible choice compared to an Irradiating Disarm Loki for spy missions, and Ember is starting to become less appealing than an Effigy Chroma build for Defense-type missions.  There's also a Speed/Slow Nova and Razorwing Titania in the works - not to mention the leveling of other warframes, but that's something you can see if you check my profile ingame.

Ember just happens to fill a very specific niche in my roster because of WoF.  I don't see a need for WoF to be changed because IMO WoF is fine as it is.

50 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

The answer in my case would be simply because I never really looked into other options, because you could do things with Ember well enught.

Way to make assumptions about the people that don't want to screw with Ember...

[Medane]

6 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Volt, Mag, Saryn, Nova etc. there are many Frames that actually relay on weapons to give certain abilities scalability. It is just a bit different on Ember and for the most part much more extreme.

That really doesn't help any of those frames cases and in fact, highlights another problem entirely.  The problem with many of the older Warframe skills is that they were built to compliment and serve as their own damage in addition to firearms and melee.  (I don't think the devs expected people to play to the infinite scaling meta early on, of which I think the meta is cancerous anyway). Slash Dash, Radial Javelin, etc, Fireball, WoF.  WoF's only significant change is that it does damage (and actually doesn't do much on grineer heavies past 28 anyways, but that's another story.)  That's only bandaided out with the augment mods that gives it knockdown to reduce enemy damage, which really doesn't contribute much to her damage.  The only other ability she received was the change of her 2, from a 90% damage reduction to the firebuff/CC we have now, which is basically the only skill you described that's used for damage.  Not very thematic at all, and frankly a waste of her (again) 1 and 3 abilities which are left in the dust.  I'm not saying she alone should be carried by her abilities, but that's exactly what her four does to begin with (to a negative extent), which ends up being nullified in usefulness later on from scaling (damage wise.)  Then, her only useful gimmick from there is her 2.  Most frames do have two trash abilities anyways, but Ember suffers from it far more because they're almost literally useless at scaling.  

((ALSO, CAN I SAY IT'S REALLY NICE TO ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO WRITE LONG TEXTS WITH THOUGHT AND HAVE REASONABLE DEBATES HERE?  You're all awesome for not devolving this to over-generalizations for the most part.))

@ literally the entire thread, this won't be solved until Ember is completely reworked.  WoF is effective but requires too little effort at lower levels but is completely unrewarding at higher levels.  However, the reason most people don't want to change ember is 1: her current place in the meta that most people do not want to disrupt, and 2: her other abilities flat out suck (effectively useless past certain levels), meaning that any changes to WoF results in tentative debates on imbalance.  We can't go anywhere unless we rip it all out from the roots and rework her entirely.  

Edited April 3, 2017 by Medane

[Justice_Ember]

How is this still a thing? 

[DeadScream]

4 hours ago, zzzNitro said:

How is this still a thing? 

Because some people agree ? 

 

But now I understand the issue ! The community is split between 2 types of players :

• Those who consider Warframe as an Action Shooter Game
• Those who consider Warframe as a farming simulator game and will cry if DE dare nerf their easy life tools