"Nerf" World On Fire by making Ember stronger

[Gamma745]

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

Your "resource pot" is really http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Resource_Drop_Chance_Booster , right?

Nitpicking, I think he means these

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/b/bf/OrokinCellContainer.png/revision/latest?cb=20160922151833

https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/3/30/NeurodesContainer.png/revision/latest?cb=20160922151833

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/2/2f/NeuralSensorContainer.png/revision/latest?cb=20160922151833

 

Yes, these things appear far more than waiting for enemies drop, and Resource Booster chance don't affect how often they spawn.

[Almagnus1]

16 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

Nitpicking, I think he means these

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/b/bf/OrokinCellContainer.png/revision/latest?cb=20160922151833

https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/3/30/NeurodesContainer.png/revision/latest?cb=20160922151833

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warframe/images/2/2f/NeuralSensorContainer.png/revision/latest?cb=20160922151833

 

Yes, these things appear far more than waiting for enemies drop, and Resource Booster chance don't affect how often they spawn.

Oh yeah, the rare resource nodes... which is why I generally run Ember through solo spy and hive missions to go resource farming as I have (anecdotally) noticed more of the race resource nodes in Spy and Hive missions than any other mission type... it's also why using things like Animal Instinct + Thief's Wit + Master Thief + Loot Detector on said maps helps find those resources, while also getting me stuff to list on warframe.market...

So again, Ember's WoF helps me farm stuff, and it's kinda hard to grab those nodes if you're just AFK farming >.>

Edited April 6, 2017 by Almagnus1

[Djego27]

Getting resources since the nodes is actually easier then ever, I have not spend a few hours killing Alad V non stop for Neural Sensor since.

Orikin Cellls: If you done tons of void survival for C rotation drops it never was a issue back in the day, even today just as back in the days you can get a decent amount just playing Helene on Saturn(I liked the old map more) or just grab them on Drako back in the days(assuming you where not afk like literally 90% of the players where on the map).

Also if you look for resources, Atlas, Necros or Hydroid will be much better, if you go way back you could have also used the all mighty Ms. Greed herself not only to stomp the mission but also loot it at the same time.

[Almagnus1]

On 4/9/2017 at 11:35 AM, Djego27 said:

Orikin Cellls: If you done tons of void survival for C rotation drops it never was a issue back in the day, even today just as back in the days you can get a decent amount just playing Helene on Saturn(I liked the old map more) or just grab them on Drako back in the days(assuming you where not afk like literally 90% of the players where on the map).

And a vet bragging about how things used to be benefits newer players how?

On 4/9/2017 at 11:35 AM, Djego27 said:

Also if you look for resources, Atlas, Necros or Hydroid will be much better, if you go way back you could have also used the all mighty Ms. Greed herself not only to stomp the mission but also loot it at the same time.

For a newer player, assuming they don't spend platinum on the warframes, Atlas is off the table because it requires endgame content, Necros is also very difficult to acquire because you have to get to the derelict, and be able to kill Lephantis, and then there's Hydroid Zoidberg which is a punishment to the player if they're running THAT warframe.

Not to mention that Vay Hek is the worst boss in warframe to farm because of his immunity mechanics - which requires a warframe that can survive through the BS and then shoot him.

From a new player perspective, Ember's actually really good with where she's sitting in the star chart, and what she does, and how difficult she is to build until one of those frames can be farmed out.

[Djego27]

On 12.4.2017 at 2:59 AM, Almagnus1 said:

And a vet bragging about how things used to be benefits newer players how?

For a newer player, assuming they don't spend platinum on the warframes, Atlas is off the table because it requires endgame content, Necros is also very difficult to acquire because you have to get to the derelict, and be able to kill Lephantis, and then there's Hydroid Zoidberg which is a punishment to the player if they're running THAT warframe.

Not to mention that Vay Hek is the worst boss in warframe to farm because of his immunity mechanics - which requires a warframe that can survive through the BS and then shoot him.

From a new player perspective, Ember's actually really good with where she's sitting in the star chart, and what she does, and how difficult she is to build until one of those frames can be farmed out.

It is not bragging, you simply used to spend a very big amount of your time in the void survivals to get the latest prime access(took me like 40h T3S to get the last saryn prime part before I took my break). Also I levelled nearly everything on Helene instead of drako(because the amount of afk and people that could not care to bring at least one useful weapon or frame to the map), what drops 1-2 per single 20 wave run. Big bonus point was also that you could just do the first 20 waves with your levelling weapon, just slap a 1-2 fire damage mods on it and use it with accelerant that turns nearly every weapon in a BFG.

Hydroid was a all right solo frame(next to infinite ammo and energy plus extra loot) before the necros rework, that removed the biggest disadvantage for solo necros(not being able to wave your hand while you have to shoot stuff). Vay Hek is not to bad to solo with Ember, I did give lots of newer players in the clan a hand with that on Ember as well. It is just that most players do not play it a few times to figure out the mechanics.

New players will get the biggest bang for the buck out of Rino, since the frame does work without any mods and is incredible good once you get your mods(high dps with roar, very good team based utility, god like CC and fairly durable and mobile). I for myself stopped using Rino nearly completely over Ember 3 years ago early on(in a time where accelerat could not re stun and playing Ember at high levels was Russian roulette) because I really like Ember. However I would not suggest that to a new player, if you are not ready for a vertical learning experience.

Ember in contrast to that is the complete opposite, she starts with incredible weak defences, offences and utility and is only used for a passive AOE damage that falls off fairly quickly. Just look at your own experience with the frame or put in "Ember scaling" in the search and you will see your opinion repeated for years(well not years, since even for AOE farming Ember had a bad rep before the channelling change, while you could actually just the same as you do now before, just required a different mod setup and scaled a bit worse). Even if you manage to figure out Ember, it takes a metric ton of framing to get what you need for the frame to work well and the result is far less broken then a lot other things in the game. 50% of the limbo damage done in today's sorti interception, next best player had 1% damage done on his name, however while it is fair to assume that DE will tune down Limbo p4tw, nobody will nerf Ember dps, since I am nearly sure not even DE knows where Ember is dps wise between other options since high level dps Ember is so rare that it falls through any kind of use statistic for sure(I not seen a single Ember that was not below average for dps output at high levels in the last 3 years).

Ember is gear dependent what is a massive problem for newer players, since the frame in her hands is actually fairly weak and can not scale well, what should be lessened in my opinion(the reason why I suggest adding status to accelerant and scalability to WoF, even if both things are hardly any use to myself since you can overcome all this issues with specific gear). I do not agree on all the "Ember falls off at level X", since I hardly notice the difference between kuva flood/sorti and a normal mission with my Ember(you actually do, this is because of the power of your CC what prevents hits and weapons like the boar prime do low damage but have nearly infinite scaling, what means you will not notice the difference between a L50 and L100 heavy gunner, because the gun takes the same time to disable the armor and the HP under that are only 4-1% of the actually EHP, weak to fire and de buffed to take insane fire damage), however I know where it is coming from, why it is the common image of the frame and that it should be looked at by DE.

[Grilleds]

Oh an Ember thread... She needs a complete rework as far as I'm concerned. I don't understand how people can call Warframes like Oberon trash, when Ember is still a frame that's only good trait is killing low level enemies inefficiently. 

Ember is actually one of my favorite frames, but  I simply can't justify picking her. Oberon sees more play out of me because at least he can do the whole "not die" thing with Rage and Equilibrium. 

Ember however is a squishy mage like character whose damage output is terrible and is locked behind some impractical abilities with inefficient synergy, and yet despite that, she's left in the dust by other squishy mage characters who have the benefit of scaling, less awkward to use abilities and often some sort of psuedo-survival ability to rely upon. She's killed too easily at lower levels. At higher levels her damage output is easily matched much more quickly and vs a higher number of enemies by other caster frames. Heck even some tanky frames's press 4 to win ult's will get more done than WoF.

 

That said, as the posts here indicate, her 4 does bring consistent and high damage output with very little effort. Problem is it doesn't do much to elite units past level 25ish, and it starts to be inefficient past level 40. HOWEVER Ember's 4 does have one key benefit that I think people tend to overlook. It follows her. This gives her a niche use when rushing missions as she will have a secondary consistent source of damage while she run and guns. It would be REALLY great if her other abilities didn't revolve around literally the exact opposite form of playstyle.

 

That's where I think she needs to be focused. As a mobile consistent damage dealing frame, she'd have a nice niche. That said, there are other buff ideas I think could work. This game has plenty of flexible frames that are quite frankly better than her (Excalibur), so maybe simply buffing her abilities rather than a total rework could work, but don't think that's the way to go. I also don't think nerfing WoF is a good idea either. The fact that she can kill some low level enemies with no effort isn't something exclusive to Ember, and therefore shouldn't be reason enough to nerf her. It might be the sole reason people pick her, but it's not enough of a crutch to save her either.

 

Also I disagree that Ember's ease of acquisition is a good excuse for her to suck. The various warframes potential don't really correlate with how easy they are to acquire... Also Excalibur is a starter frame and quite frankly I find he does Ember's job better.

[Almagnus1]

@Djego27 Please be concise and please stop reminiscing, as it's not helpful to the issue at hand.  As far as Boar Prime goes, it's a fun weapon but not very good unless you're doing:

 

11 hours ago, Grilleds said:

Oh an Ember thread... She needs a complete rework as far as I'm concerned. I don't understand how people can call Warframes like Oberon trash, when Ember is still a frame that's only good trait is killing low level enemies inefficiently. 

Eh, I think that's because Oberon generally gets outclassed by Trinity - that and it's next to impossible NOT to build Oberon because of all the pieces you accrue from playing.

I'm not sure there's really a "trash" warframe... although there are several that take a fair amount of effort to make shine.

Quote

That said, as the posts here indicate, her 4 does bring consistent and high damage output with very little effort. Problem is it doesn't do much to elite units past level 25ish, and it starts to be inefficient past level 40. HOWEVER Ember's 4 does have one key benefit that I think people tend to overlook. It follows her. This gives her a niche use when rushing missions as she will have a secondary consistent source of damage while she run and guns. It would be REALLY great if her other abilities didn't revolve around literally the exact opposite form of playstyle.

That's the niche that I find so useful on the low-level spy/hive mission resource farming (that and using Firequake with the mod to handle the CC).  I do use 2 => 3 to do a short damage burst in an area, but the problem that I find with Ember is that her damage abilities just aren't that good past about level 40 enemies unless you have a primary weapon that you can lean on to compensate for the damage falloff.

The 1 is complete garbage though, and that's something that should be changed.

Quote

That's where I think she needs to be focused. As a mobile consistent damage dealing frame, she'd have a nice niche. That said, there are other buff ideas I think could work. This game has plenty of flexible frames that are quite frankly better than her (Excalibur), so maybe simply buffing her abilities rather than a total rework could work, but don't think that's the way to go. I also don't think nerfing WoF is a good idea either. The fact that she can kill some low level enemies with no effort isn't something exclusive to Ember, and therefore shouldn't be reason enough to nerf her. It might be the sole reason people pick her, but it's not enough of a crutch to save her either.

While I generally agree with you, the mobile damage aura is what is calling people to nerf Ember... because Ember can tear through minions faster because of the aura.

Quote

Also I disagree that Ember's ease of acquisition is a good excuse for her to suck. The various warframes potential don't really correlate with how easy they are to acquire... Also Excalibur is a starter frame and quite frankly I find he does Ember's job better.

No, but Ember should be able to fill the CC/Mobile damage niche until you can get the other options farmed out.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Almagnus1

[Djego27]

I am sorry for actually type out my thoughts on the forums and explain a bit more precise how stuff works and why it works and why changes should be made or not.

Just ask your fellow you tuber if he did at least 100+ solo 1h+ survivals with the boar prime, then ask if he even did one. The answer you get will be the same and there is a reason why I complained for nearly 2 years about the status nerf on the boar prime while others point out that blast/corrosive is super good in her simicarium tests while in reality it is utterly crap in practical applications(the knock-down kills your dps vs groups and blast is utterly inferior to fire when it comes to deal with non armoured HP, the reason why I only need 7 rounds to kill that thing that the guy in the video spend 40 on). If you put a proper used vhek against that L145 target you will see for yourself what kills faster, hint it is not a corrosive/blast Boar prime at L145.

While you find the video yaw dropping, I find it terrible and it is people like this, or people get her opinion from videos like this that comment on how good the boar prime is while having literally no real experience with the gun itself what drives me insane every time it I start a topic about it. A corrosive/blast boar prime is utterly bad compared to a proper modded Tirgris(all of them) or the vhek in literally every practical application for Warframe players, what is the reason you always see the vhek and Tigris in sortis and that is it. You next to never see a boar prime and the chance to see somebody that out damage you with a boar prime is literally me and maybe 5 more people in the hole game ending up in the same sorti like you, this is how much of a niche gun it is.

TLDR: Boar prime you tube videos are just as bad as Ember videos. Watching people in videos talk about corrosive blast boar prime is like watching a fire quake Ember video.

Edit: Did you ever consider the chance that people on youtube might be just wrong in regards of Ember or nearly every single status weapon in the game? Because they actually are from my experience.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Djego27

[(PSN)AtomicEyekon]

[DeadScream] "the low-mid level issue still stands here : walking on a straight line and making everything burn with zero effort is a bad thing. It makes people lazy, other players tired, and most of game's content useless"

 you must have been one of the people who asked for the changes to Ash Bladestorm or valkyr hysteria you sir are not my friend we play a game which we already call Nurframe the point is to stop the Nurf's not continue them. when you make something you make it right you make it one time I understand and agree to revisit old things to add a new twist to it example limbo ty DE

 regarding Ember she is perfectly fine, don't   touch   something   that  is not   broken!

[Grilleds]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)AtomicEyekon said:

[DeadScream] "the low-mid level issue still stands here : walking on a straight line and making everything burn with zero effort is a bad thing. It makes people lazy, other players tired, and most of game's content useless"

 you must have been one of the people who asked for the changes to Ash Bladestorm or valkyr hysteria you sir are not my friend we play a game which we already call Nurframe the point is to stop the Nurf's not continue them. when you make something you make it right you make it one time I understand and agree to revisit old things to add a new twist to it example limbo ty DE

 regarding Ember she is perfectly fine, don't   touch   something   that  is not   broken!

I want to point out that the anti-nerf attitude led to some pretty massive power creep that had to be fixed throughout a number of updating starting all the way back with Damage 2.0. Nerfing is good. Keeps balance of everything roughly in line so we don't end up with the same lopsided game we had before Damage 2.0, or immediately after Damage 2.0 where farming consisted of finding the perfect combination of frames to gather together to press 4 repeatedly with.

 

That said, I don't think Ember is perfectly fine. I'm of the opposite opinion of a lot of the complainers here in that I think she's underpowered.

[Almagnus1]

7 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Edit: Did you ever consider the chance that people on youtube might be just wrong in regards of Ember or nearly every single status weapon in the game? Because they actually are from my experience.

If everyone on YouTube is "wrong" and you're "right", maybe you're the issue?

[Djego27]

Why? Should I join the "status is useless" and Ember is only useful for pressing 4 at low levels club because it is the public opinion?

While you might think I am just try to be "edgy" with calling youtube videos bad just compare this two:

The first on is actually a fairly good guide, explaining how the higher fire rate of the mara adds some issues for mouse wheel or full auto macros, how high level modding is done and why you would build around certain elements. I actually could add to the first one that the higher fire rate also has it's advantages like proc/s if you fully status mod it. The reason why this option is not used in the first video is because it is a massive damage loss outside of Ember, however on Ember it comes at close to no damage loss whatsoever and a very big utility and damage buff. It is a guide done by somebody where you can see that the person knows the weapon fairly well and uses it himself probably a lot.

The second one is just "is it worth the effort" video like everybody does this days, staring weapons they probably do not use and just thrown a few forma on for a demonstration of how they think the weapon works or not. Given that it can not deliver in her hands and it is not in the broken level of weapons but a fairly balanced one the answer is no, it is just a waste of forma and time to them.

While second video the maker likes to point out how bad it is, in the video before it apparently does absolute fine against high level stuff.

I for myself also happen to use the mara detron more then any other secondary in the game and if you negate stuff like the staticor that is just incredible poor balanced given how much stronger it is then nearly every secondary and primary status weapon in the hole game while throwing the core advantage of innate radiation damage in the mix as well, the mara detron is a very powerful high level weapon if used correctly and can blaze through sortis solo without much issues.

I for myself 100% agree on the last note of the first video "The detron is a nearly perfect example of what a strong weapon should be, without being a no brainier or just overpowered." even if the weapon is considered in any other guide as plain bad.

Edit: The reason I used the detron for this example is that there actually is not a single good guide for the boar prime, it is A: "weapon does so much less damage then my Tigris and is crap" or B: "the corrosive/blast thing" what is similar bad if you actually put it to the test and try to solo a sorti with that in a glass cannon frame. On Ember it is exactly the same, it is "duh WoF is good at low levels since I do not have to do anything, but Ember does not scale." or "Firequake f2w" in every single content video that google manages to find.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

31 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Why? Should I join the "status is useless" and Ember is only useful for pressing 4 at low levels club because it is the public opinion?

Ok, so if this assumption about my stance on status is true, why is this my default secondary?

http://warframe-builder.com/Secondary_Weapons/Builder/Akstiletto_Prime/t_30_32222003_193-4-5-204-1-10-206-5-5-209-0-5-263-6-3-487-7-10-543-3-10-605-2-10_209-6-204-7-605-7-543-6-193-6-206-11-263-7-487-8/en/3-0-80

[Djego27]

I mean mostly the stance towards status of most popular youtubers and how poorly reviewed most status weapon are on youtube.

As for the akstilleto prime, most likely because it is a poorly balanced weapon, that even in a status build hits harder then most soma prime builds without having any real drawbacks to justify it's power.

Edit: If you want, you can test that for yourself, switch out pathogen rounds for pistol pestilence, throw 200% power strength on your Ember and jump into the next anti armor sorti, press 2 instead of 4 and look at the numbers. Now repeat the same thing, but chang the crit mods for dual status mods to make corrosive, add scorch and seeker. You might realize the reason why people like the akstilleto prime that much is crit, even if you might notice(if you have enught experience with status weapons to rate it correctly among others) that it is actually already one of the strongest status weapon in the game but hardly used as such in favour of it's crit stats.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

6 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

I mean mostly the stance towards status of most popular youtubers and how poorly reviewed most status weapon are on youtube.

Maybe you should stop linking them then?  Why give them free PR if they're doing a shoddy job?

6 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

As for the akstilleto prime, most likely because it is a poorly balanced weapon, that even in a status build hits harder then most soma prime builds without having any real drawbacks to justify it's power.

Or perhaps it's because it's a status machine gun that has just enough crit to mow down anything in it's path?

I was experimenting with the Akstiletto prior to the release of the Prime, and saw that it's firing characteristics were actually really solid and appealed to me, and saw that the stats for the weapon made it into a better secondary as the non-primed version suffered from a smaller magazine and firing too fast - coupled with the obvious lesser damage.  Given what corrosive, fire, and slash status procs can do combined with what impact damage does to shields, is it no surprise that the Akstiletto Prime just melts stuff?

As far as drawbacks go... to get the most out of Akstiletto Prime, you absolutely need three primed mods.  Otherwise you're going to hit a wall in the second and third sorties where your DPS starts to fall off because you can't pull enough DPS out of the secondary.  Not to mention that you have to hunt down five parts and the BP to build Akstiletto Prime, I'd say the weapon is pretty balanced considering what you have to do for acquisition, what you have to get to make it awesome, and how it starts to fall off in the sortie missions if you don't have the three primed mods.

Again, you're notion of "balance" has me scratching my head.

[Djego27]

Why should I not link them? Wouldn't it just defeat the hole purpose of the discussion here if you could not watch them yourself and come to your own conclusion why the opinion about the same thing can be vastly different?

As pointed out before you can use the akstilleto without any crit mods and it will easily punch through a L100 sorti like butter status modded(especially on Ember, since again status modding comes at no downside on the frame by the way fire damage scaling works), at this point it is still vastly superior to every status rifle in the hole game, weapons that also can blow through that L100 sorti missions reasonable well, even if nobody uses them for that, given that there is a metric ton of weapons that are just easier to use and do the job as good or mostly better.

Balance means you are presented with a lot of choice and the designer treats you as a intelligent person that can judge for himself what is good and what not. Imbalance like with the akstilleto prime means there is no real choice. It is simply better then any status rifle in the game, it is better than any crit rifle in the game and you do not have to be intelligent to figure it out, given that difference is quite big and very obvious. Yes it is a very good status weapon and can overcome high level units with status(especially armored ones), however that is often negotiated in favour of the crit stats that are also on the weapon.

In contrast to that look at the prisma grakata. There is no crit or status on the weapon, it only works with crit and status at the same time, because the base damage is otherwise to low to make it shine at the very high levels by it's status mechanics. If you just crit build it, it is inferior to the soma prime(ammo use, accuracy, damage), if you just status mod it is inferior to the braton prime, since the braton prime has higher base damage and is not modded for crit. It is only good in very specific builds, where it does out scale other status rifles and the crit ones, yet it is in general considered as fairly bad weapon because people do for the most part not know that, there is no video about it that explains the mechanics and it is not even overpowered if you know how to use it, because it actually is the only rifle in the game that has something like spread and is ridiculous ammo ineffective what is a problem especially at L80+. This is balance done well, what is unfortunately the exception instead of the norm for most stuff in the game.

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Djego27

[Almagnus1]

Maybe the problem here isn't that the Akstiletto Prime is so good, it's the mods to support a Crit/Status build on Rifles as almost all builds are going to run Heavy Caliber, or the Acolyte Mods to up the DPS of said rifle because there's no rifle equivalent of Lethal Torrent.  Also, the IPS values for the Prisma Grakata are **REALLY** bad as you really want high slash damage on the weapon, and that's one of the reasons why the Braton Prime is a better pure status rifle than the Prisma Grakata - because the percentage of slash damage on the Prisma Grakata is really low.  The slash proc is just that good, and that's where the Prisma Grakata falls flat.

If you're gonna complain about stuff, at least know what you're complaining about so you can talk intelligently about it rather than babble around the point.

[Djego27]

The prisma grakata got the higher innate fire rate what makes it the better status rifle in situations where it comes down to proc/s(what is vs armor) compared to the braton prime. The idea that you need the added damage of slash damage procs is a incredible naive way to look at the prisma grakata, given that the only thing they do is add some dot(what will be not that much given the kill speed and the low base damage) and ignore armor what again is fairly pointless if your gun already removes the armor.

To follow up on your request, I am not complaining, I am just highly irritated by people that defend a quite questionable AOE low level farming method(not even the quickest, just the one with the least amount of effort required) since it is as far the public opinion goes the only thing a player can do with the frame, want to point out that they apparently have a good understanding of status/frame based interactions by putting a single status mod on her secondary that does not even need a single status mod on it to play through a sorti solo and halve afk and should look up some academic lecture regarding balance to be on the same page as others talking about it(mostly to understand the definition of the therm itself).

I guess since you want me to do so, I will be as direct as I can:

You are defending a lazy low level farming method, because it suits you, while others hate it(me included as somebody that plays the frame more than anything else), you know not enught about the mechanics of Ember and status to find any use for it outside of the 4 button what in return makes you believe that you lose something important or even any use for the frame if DE would change WoF into something that is no longer used to semi afk finish low level missions. Something that is objectively not true, since you can play with Ember quite effective at L100 as dps frame against any faction in the game, where WoF is just CC and that is good enught.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Djego27

[DeadScream]

13 hours ago, (PS4)AtomicEyekon said:

[DeadScream] "the low-mid level issue still stands here : walking on a straight line and making everything burn with zero effort is a bad thing. It makes people lazy, other players tired, and most of game's content useless"

 you must have been one of the people who asked for the changes to Ash Bladestorm or valkyr hysteria you sir are not my friend we play a game which we already call Nurframe the point is to stop the Nurf's not continue them. when you make something you make it right you make it one time I understand and agree to revisit old things to add a new twist to it example limbo ty DE

 regarding Ember she is perfectly fine, don't   touch   something   that  is not   broken!

I don't really care if you are my friend or not mate, but we don't play the same game and I can say you didn't read my post. 

 

I played a lv 35 defence the other day, there were 2 Embers and 1 Equinox. 

So what was I supposed to do ? Struggle on trying to get enemies before they get nullified, with the only failure perspective being "someone else will kill them if they pass" ? 

Sometimes I just feel like actually playing the game has become too mainstream, and people DON'T   WANT   TO    PLAY    ANYMORE. 

 

Ember is fine for a farming/walking simulator game if you want. Until she becomes the "struggle hard to pretend doing something and die" on later levels.

[Almagnus1]

8 hours ago, Djego27 said:

The prisma grakata got the higher innate fire rate what makes it the better status rifle in situations where it comes down to proc/s(what is vs armor) compared to the braton prime. The idea that you need the added damage of slash damage procs is a incredible naive way to look at the prisma grakata, given that the only thing they do is add some dot(what will be not that much given the kill speed and the low base damage) and ignore armor what again is fairly pointless if your gun already removes the armor.

Please refer to http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Status_Effect and refresh yourself on the status effects.

The biggest problem with having a ton of impact damage is the staggering status proc from Impact damage - which can make you even more inaccurate on a weapon that's not very accurate to begin with.  Again, that's one area where the Akstiletto Prime beats out the Prisma Grakata because the Akstiletto Prime, like the Soma Prime (even with Heavy Caliber), are accurate enough to use at medium and long ranges... whereas the Grakata series of weapons generally aren't IMO.  Coincidentally, the same can also be said for blast - which is why I generally prefer Corrosive/Fire for DPS and Corrosive/Blast for CC.  I'm ignoring the ammo efficiency issues with the weapons as I'd generally run Carrier Prime as my sentinel if I'm using any of the three because of Ammo Case.

IMO, the procs you really should be building around are Slash, Toxin, Heat, Corrosive, Viral, and/or Gas.  The Cold proc is also potentially really good because it can allow for some pretty absurd damage (as seen here):

Going through the rest of the procs, while Puncture, Radiation, and Electricity are good on paper, most of the time the target should be dead fast enough that they don't really get to do a lot of work (granted, there are exceptions).

Magnetic's the only proc that's not really useful because you can either tear through shields fast enough that they basically don't exist or use status procs that bypass shields and armor and outright kill the target while they have full shields.

9 hours ago, Djego27 said:

You are defending a lazy low level farming method, because it suits you, while others hate it(me included as somebody that plays the frame more than anything else), you know not enught about the mechanics of Ember and status to find any use for it outside of the 4 button what in return makes you believe that you lose something important or even any use for the frame if DE would change WoF into something that is no longer used to semi afk finish low level missions. Something that is objectively not true, since you can play with Ember quite effective at L100 as dps frame against any faction in the game, where WoF is just CC and that is good enught.

No, I think she's generally fine, but as I said earlier:

On 4/5/2017 at 10:55 AM, Almagnus1 said:

I don't think there's a way to pull that off without a complete overhaul of the ember kit.  However...

The 1 is useless, but I use 2 then 3 quite a bit, as that provides a pretty good burst and annihilates a group of guys on most of the start chart missions that I'm running ember on.

So I would argue that the 3 isn't useless, it's just useless without casting 2 first.

The 1, on the other hand, only gets used for the affinity quest.

I think I have a good enough grasp on what her 2 and 3 can do to appreciate what the frame can do.  IMO, there's other frames that do sorite level content much, much better than Ember/Ember Prime can - which is fine because she's good enough for most of the star chart content and that's just fine by me.

IMO, as Ember/Ember Prime is basically a star chart warframe, there's no need to nerf the abilities because her AoE damage isn't good enough for sorties.  Ember's fine as is.

[Djego27]

On 14.4.2017 at 10:00 PM, Almagnus1 said:

Please refer to http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Status_Effect and refresh yourself on the status effects.

The biggest problem with having a ton of impact damage is the staggering status proc from Impact damage - which can make you even more inaccurate on a weapon that's not very accurate to begin with.  Again, that's one area where the Akstiletto Prime beats out the Prisma Grakata because the Akstiletto Prime, like the Soma Prime (even with Heavy Caliber), are accurate enough to use at medium and long ranges... whereas the Grakata series of weapons generally aren't IMO.  Coincidentally, the same can also be said for blast - which is why I generally prefer Corrosive/Fire for DPS and Corrosive/Blast for CC.  I'm ignoring the ammo efficiency issues with the weapons as I'd generally run Carrier Prime as my sentinel if I'm using any of the three because of Ammo Case.

Going through the rest of the procs, while Puncture, Radiation, and Electricity are good on paper, most of the time the target should be dead fast enough that they don't really get to do a lot of work (granted, there are exceptions).

Magnetic's the only proc that's not really useful because you can either tear through shields fast enough that they basically don't exist or use status procs that bypass shields and armor and outright kill the target while they have full shields.

It is a point blank rifle, you do not use it at medium range for more then CC at high levels. This is possible on the grakata because it does CC 100% reliable with fire/impact procs you can stand in front of L100 unit without any issues, because you do not get shot. I have called the prisma grakata the best status shotgun in the game for 1.5 years because this is how you use it, what it does better then other rifles and both of our old status shotguns are only good if you invest a massive amount of time and a riven into them or use something like Volt to fix the reload speed issues on the strun wraith.

You should try your carrier plan one day in person, given that even maxed primed ammo mutation(still a metric ton better then the normal one, where you did see issues at the 40 minute mark) is not enught on a prisma grakata to solo 60 minutes into a armor survival without ammo restores on a frame with a very high self damage buff(what is incredible handy on ammo ineffective weapons) and sentinels are compared to kubrows incredible prone to die at high levels.

As for the video, the bug that status procs continue during the frozen state and the target becomes immune to new ones is very old and should be fixed since it prevents Frost from using any status weapon at high levels what is utterly annoying. You do not use the weapons like the prisma grakata or status shotguns outside of her niche at high levels(what is against armour, because it needs the highest amount of status effect stacking to remove that, hence you pick weapons with the highest proc rate in the game). Slash, toxin, gas builds are pointless on most of the weapons that naturally lead them self to that, because they scale of base damage per bullet or pellet what is not a strong side of nearly all high status/s weapons(staticor is a massive out liner, while the akstilleto by the higher base damage and the added crit scaling also breaks this general limitation of this weapons). The armour ignore mechanic on slash or the toxin dots are not really relevant to you, because you remove that armour damage reduction what makes other people struggle and fire damage is incredible strong to deal with the flesh under that armour.

You can read for yourself what amount of cheese people come up with just to do a L80 grenier survival, where I for myself did not look at the level and only noticed it 12 minutes into the mission getting one shot killed by a balista. This is because you normally do not get shot by your strong CC based defence and there is no big mechanical change in shooting a L50, L100, or L150 armoured units with Ember, assuming you use a status weapon like the boar prime it will take roughly the same amount of time(give or take a few bullets), because armour scaling is removed from the table and grenier do not scale as aggressive as for example Infested heavy units in HP. You can hardly tell the difference between 5k HP under the armor or 50k HP if even a single shot out of the lowest damage per shot primary shotgun(if we ignore the Kohm) does already 25k+ damage against cloned flesh. You can even ignore status and use any of the weapons that are considered top tier and use crit/head shot damage scaling like people normally do. My vhek that does like 70k+ just in fire damage per single shot on a 245% power strength Ember, before you even take head shots or crits into consideration at what point you still 1-2 shot grenier in sortis.

On 14.4.2017 at 10:00 PM, Almagnus1 said:

No, I think she's generally fine, but as I said earlier:

I think I have a good enough grasp on what her 2 and 3 can do to appreciate what the frame can do.  IMO, there's other frames that do sorite level content much, much better than Ember/Ember Prime can - which is fine because she's good enough for most of the star chart content and that's just fine by me.

IMO, as Ember/Ember Prime is basically a star chart warframe, there's no need to nerf the abilities because her AoE damage isn't good enough for sorties.  Ember's fine as is.

If you ever did high level missions with Ember you would realize that the ability to CC while reloading with Fireball is very useful or in general if you use a vhek or a rakta cernos that do not bring continues CC to the table like Embers status weapons do.

Fire blast is a niche tool that does not work in that niche what should be addressed, assuming we talk about levels where the damage component is irrelevant.

It is not used on the star map because it is more effective then other ways to accomplish quick missions, it is mostly used because people are lazy and it comes at the expense of people that like to play Warframe as a co op shooter, where you know actually shoot your guns. While it was back in the days mostly drako and a few farming missions where nearly everything was AOE nuked, you can hardly go into any mission this days without seeing a Ember for WoF spam.

Ember should be changed, because even for me as somebody that plays everything with Ember it is annoying. Given that the "Ember is bad at high levels" general opinion has not changed in the last 3 years that I play the game and the frame, DE should look into basic stuff like giving extra base status chance to accelerant and scalable fire dots, reducing Embers dependency on specific gear. It also prevents Ember from being at mercy of bad reworks of hole weapon classes(like our shotguns 2 years ago) that massively over buff top tier shotguns while making status shotguns utterly bad at the only thing they are good at, high level anti armour use. I for myself do not need that rework because all this issues are fixable with the right gear, gear that I did acquire, test and judge myself if that works on Ember or not because there is no such thing as a real Ember guide, however I consider that gear dependency excessive and one of the main reasons why Ember in the hands of most players does actually perform not that good as damage frame.

That there are much much much better frames for sortis is also just your opinion, based on a lack of experience how the frame works outside of situations where WoF plays the game for you. However you are not alone, you are a member of the majority of Ember players since the WoF changes. In my experience Ember is one of the best solo sorti frames, combining a high level of CC that allows you to defend stuff effective with a damage output that is similar or superior to other weapon based elemental frames(like Frost or Saryn). You are also not relaying on overpowered weapons, invisibility or god mode cheese or team based tactics what is very convenient if you prefer to play Warframe as a shooter.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Djego27

[ShadowStalker]

well nerfing ember should mean nerf banshee to :) and saryn aswell because ember isnt the only one that makes people lazy nerf all 3 of these frames and warframe would be a great place

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

<very long ramble>

Ok, if Ember is so awesome, explain how Ember is superior to a well played Inaros running Soma Prime (or Tigris Prime), Akstiletto Prime, and a Covert Lethality Dagger using Naramon focus with a Carrier Prime sentinel.

[Djego27]

Well to be 100% objective I did all the sortis with Inaros and the 3. one also with Ember(for reference after today it is extra armor survival on the kuva fortress).

Objectively I had less issues with life support on Ember, but that might been as well just the map and the spawn points given that I am not really familiar with the kuva title set it is hard for me to tell and the kill speed is fairly similar(watching a finisher animation vs shooting 4-5 boar prime rounds into a target).

I actually do enjoy to play the game like it was once kind of intended, so I like the Ember game play more, but this is just a personal opinion. In the end Ember is much easier to solo for defensive missions by the much more consistent AOE CC because it comes from her abilities and weapons at the same time(the mobile defence was kind of painful with Inaros, getting saved by the time with like only 1k HP on the 2. Console left) and also never runs really into life support issues for me. Also I do not like relaying on completely broken mechanics like shadow step, on demand finishers and CL that will be fixed sooner or latter(since it is DE most likely later) and a highly overpowered melee frame. For me basic game mechanics and halve way balanced frames and weapons are more satisfying.

It is hard for me to understand how somebody could endure the bore fest that Inaros is(press 1, watch a finisher animation, repeat for 60-120 minutes straight and it becomes really frustrating for me). Increase that with Naramon and CL makes it probably worse in regards to offer any enjoyable game play. It is not even needed given that Inaros at L100 even in the old T4S was still nowhere in danger to die, because at the non existent cost of no shields(that are absolute pointless for melee runs outside of mag anyway) you get: overpowered CC for a melee frame(compare it with Valkyr, Chorma, Ash...), unlimited instant finishers that do not even need CL to one shot kill everything in sorti or long survivals and 100% HP heal on any single channeled finisher with a proper weapon. Keep in mind DE also did give Inaros 14k EHP before even using QT, because the threat to die with super good CC is for some reason still much higher then on other melee frames so we give it more or less the highest HP pool in the game. DE balance...

Not really sure what this has to do with the akstilleto or Tigris prime, given that there is hardly any reason to use a gun on Inaros anyway while weapons on Ember are usually used to add things the frame does not provide like more CC, armor ignore or healer aura ignore, non of this is needed on Inaros.  You have armor ignore with the finishers anyway and melee scales better then most ranged weapon even without his 1 since the crit event mod and body count, at least on normal frames. Ember again is a bit of the exception since you run out of mod space, lucky flash accelerant can add at least some heat damage to corrosive or viral modded status/crit weapons without needing a mod slot on the weapon. A similar thing is true for my raksa kubrow, since a carrier would simply not provide sufficient shield restore and CC to succeed with a squishy frame like ember at high levels. Yes Carrier prime is not good enught on Ember, even before you look into the flaw that it dies relatively easy at L100.

Bottom line, playing effective with Ember is like a puzzle of gear and mods that you have to put together correctly to work without any guide that tells you what you should do(I actually like that, even if I am fully aware of that what I do with Ember was never intended by the devs) and does provide a very enjoyable experience while being reasonable effective to play high level missions solo. Inaros in comparison is just boring to me, even before you add naramon and CL to make it even more boring for whatever reason you feel that it is needed, since it lacks any kind interesting drawback that you have to overcome as a player.

Edit: 3.5 years ago when I started the game, public opinion was that Ember is really bad after the overheat removal and DE adding accelerant. I sold my Excalibur starter frame to make room for it, accelerant did not re stun what early in my experience helped me to toss out all the useless duration setups at higher levels to relay more on power strength driven weapon damage builds and weapon based CC. It only took like a month for me from completely let go of playing rino and instead focusing on getting better with Ember, because I actually liked and still do like that your tool of ultimate destruction has a lot of downsides, is very easy killed by a single player mistakes while it does not offer super powers that clear the hole map. Over the years every time there is a new mod or item you acquire it and look if it improves what you enjoy the most in the game and after all this time I am still here, as a Ember main player that effortlessly punches through a L100 extra armor sorti while the frame is still considered useless at any level where WoF fails to do the job of the actual player. While you think I want to nerf my most used frame, because I do not care(what is correct since WoF damage means nothing to me, given that it is irrelevant to what you actually can do with the frame as dps player), I want to buff you and other players, removing a big part of the incredible grind that Ember actually is and giving you the ability to perform with it as well as I do what in return might or might not give you the opportunity to enjoy it as much as I do.

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Djego27

[Helljack84]

Is there any point in creating endless walls of text that repeat "use firedamage buff with fire damage" and "strip armor from armored units" again and again?