Mod drain should be lower

[Witchydragon]

Right now, if I want to mod a weapon or warframe far beyond stock I require potatoes and usually forma. This also includes non-primed weapons which some players prefer in PVP, but have no use for in PVE. While this is theoretically not supposed to give me a direct advantage, being able to use gear that better complements my skill set does give an advantage. Since catalysts, forma, and platinum are all unattainable in PVP and progress towards them cannot be made in PVP, the mod drainage should match that design. I would suggest the following:

• All mods without downsides should be rank 0 mods with 0 drain.
• All mods with downsides should have reduced max drain, with total drain being balanced so that it's (at least nearly) impossible to go over 30.
• Blank polarities on all mods.

 

[taiiat]

i... guess i'd be okay with that. basic Mods costing no points certainly.
more 'corrupted' style Mods not as sure, while the paradigm perhaps - i imagine the intention is to not be able to Equip them all at once (or a lot of them w/e), and to must choose between some of them. point cost... sure is not as successful in this regard as is probably desired but....

i guess to really go 'all out', Conclave Loadouts could simply not allow Potato/Forma, and have all blank Polarities? then both Slot and Point Cost could be fine tuned if the intention is for both of these to be used as balancing metrics.

[Mk.1]

I think you should have specified that this is for conclave mods only.

[Kai_Shiba]

1 minute ago, Mk_1 said:

I think you should have specified that this is for conclave mods only.

Post is in conclave feedback, so yea

[Mk.1]

1 minute ago, Kai_Shiba said:

Post is in conclave feedback, so yea

I hadn't checked the location, I saw it in the [Topics] tab on the front page of the forums. I'd assume other people would click without knowing as well. Anyhow, thanks for correcting me.

[Witchydragon]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

 i imagine the intention is to not be able to Equip them all at once (or a lot of them w/e), and to must choose between some of them. point cost...

This can be done by making mods mutually exclusive (see Latron's Double Tap + Hydraulic mod). Point cost as a 'balancing' factor in this regard just forces players to use forma/potatoes to stay competitive/use all desired mods.

 

29 minutes ago, Mk_1 said:

I think you should have specified that this is for conclave mods only.

Anyone who reads the post will understand that the suggestion is for PVP. Anyone who posts and does not realize the suggestion is for PVP probably shouldn't be listened to.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

This can be done by making mods mutually exclusive (see Latron's Double Tap + Hydraulic mod). Point cost as a 'balancing' factor in this regard just forces players to use forma/potatoes to stay competitive/use all desired mods.

it can certainly be done other ways, wasn't providing a preference, just investigating plausibilities as to why it is like that in the first place, and what decisions may have been made for that.
knowing why it's the way it is now, could help how it could be better in the future.

[Kanaima]

I agree with this. Currently forma'ing my Lato for use in conclave, as most of the other weapons that I have an interest in using are filled with Madurai polarities, and therefore can't accept as many mods in conclave. It sucks that my choice of weapons for use in conclave is hindered by my choice in PvE. At the very least, since they have seperate builds for conclave, it'd be nice if weapons also used a seperate catalyst/reactor/polarity set, with conclave specific forma/catalysts/reactors being awarded rarely from end of match rewards/weekly/standing.

For example the same Lato with 2 conclave forma and a conclave catalyst would have 60 points and 2 Vazarin polarities, but in PvE would have 30 points and no polarity slots. While a 6 forma/catalyzed Soma in PvE, would be 30/30 with 2x Madurai (base) in conclave.

If this ended up being the case, it'd probably be a good idea to mirror the catalyst/reactor/forma of pre-existing weapons at the time of the change for people who specifically went out of their way to use said items for use in conclave.

Edit: One of each could also be awarded on each conclave rank increase, in order help keep things a little more balanced for new conclave players. Also it might be good if such a forma didn't reset the level of the item... anything to keep people interested in playing and not getting turned off by grind. I actually enjoy conclave on the rare occasion I get into a match with more than 1 other person...

Edited March 29, 2017 by TheDrunkenKanaima

[Nazrethim]

On 19/3/2017 at 8:59 PM, Witchydragon said:

Since catalysts, forma, and platinum are all unattainable in PVP

I have an idea to somewhat adress this:

Add Sortie reward tables (except for Anasa statue, 4k Endo and 'maybe' lenses) to the Conclave weekly for players who have completed TWW as a fifth reward. As for the platinum part... that could be somewhat adressed by making Conclave mods usable in PvE, and adding a Conclave Syndicate weapon and a Conclave Quest with a frame bp as reward and tradable parts for standing, then let trade sort things out.

Back to main topic, I think lowering the 13 mods to 7-9 would be enough. I like the blank polarity thing too, specially for Stances, I'm currently Forma'ing all my melee weapons to 'blank' polarity on the Stance slot.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Kanaima]

28 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I have an idea to somewhat adress this:

Add Sortie reward tables (except for Anasa statue, 4k Endo and 'maybe' lenses) to the Conclave weekly for players who have completed TWW as a fifth reward. As for the platinum part... that could be somewhat adressed by making Conclave mods usable in PvE, and adding a Conclave Syndicate weapon and a Conclave Quest with a frame bp as reward and tradable parts for standing, then let trade sort things out.

Back to main topic, I think lowering the 13 mods to 7-9 would be enough. I like the blank polarity thing too, specially for Stances, I'm currently Forma'ing all my melee weapons to 'blank' polarity on the Stance slot.

The problem with adding rewards that are usable in PvE to conclave, is that people who hate conclave with every fiber of their being end up feeling forced to play the mode. I encountered far more toxicity in the 6 or so matches it took to complete the 2 events that rewarded ship decorations, than I have in the entire time I've spent in conclave otherwise, purely because a lot of people who despise conclave felt the need to acquire said items that don't even affect gameplay, and were absolutely miserable because of it. One person in particular was telling people the world would be a better place if they didn't exist because they played the mode as intended, instead of boosting the reward by drawing the match.

I actually enjoy playing conclave on the rare occasion I can get a match, and people are generally pretty friendly. I'd hate to see the tone of conclave change because suddenly people feel like they need to play it.

Edit: should mention I've also seen people actively avoid participating in a match, while sitting there complaining about how boring/broken conclave is and how toxic conclave players are, purely because they want the conclave skins for their favorite weapons. Perhaps DE should just allow these people to boost standing in private matches to lower the negativity in otherwise good games, I have no problem with them wanting or getting conclave cosmetics rewards without actually participating, provided it improves conclave as a whole.

Edited March 29, 2017 by TheDrunkenKanaima

[Nazrethim]

3 minutes ago, TheDrunkenKanaima said:

The problem with adding rewards that are usable in PvE to conclave, is that people who hate conclave with every fiber of their being end up feeling forced to play the mode. I encountered far more toxicity in the 6 or so matches it took to complete the 2 events that rewarded ship decorations, than I have in the entire time I've spent in conclave otherwise, purely because a lot of people who despise conclave felt the need to acquire said items that don't even affect gameplay, and were absolutely miserable because of it. One person in particular was telling people the world would be a better place if they didn't exist because they played the mode as intended, instead of boosting the reward by drawing the match. I actually enjoy playing conclave on the rare occasion I can get a match, and people are generally pretty friendly. I'd hate to see the tone of conclave change because suddenly people feel like they need to play it.

Mods are mostly sidegrades, and the ones that aren't have gimmicks attached to it or give little effect, so they wouldn't fit with PvE meta, making Conclave mods entirely optional (so far the ONLY mod that is a straight upgrade to anything on it's kind in PvE is... Rending Wind Machete stance..yeah)

A weapon can be implemented in two ways:

-Bp only trough Conclave Standing and the Platinum option on the market (like Simaris)

-Built weapon that can only be obtained trough standing, but it's tradable.

 

The Conclave quest could be a PvP-PvE hybrid quest, with the PvP matches being the equivalent of a training montage. The reward would be the main WF bp. The parts would be then obtained trough Standing and be tradable, or not tradable but added as drops from a new enemy introduced in said quest or whatever.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Kanaima]

20 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

-Built weapon that can only be obtained trough standing, but it's tradable.

I agree about the mods, most aren't particularly useful in PvE, although I wish they were; I find conclave mods to be some of the most interesting in the game personally.

A built weapon that can be traded seems like the most viable option, and I would personally like to see more conclave items added, I just don't imagine it'd go over well with most of the player base. But this is getting a little off topic so...

While adding forma/catalyst/reactor blueprints to the weekly rewards could solve the issue, I still feel like it could create a problem bigger than the one it'd be solving. I'd actually prefer if the weekly rewards gave conclave only mods, and something other than resources.

To be honest I'd also prefer if conclave mods didn't have ranks and therefore didn't require credits and endo. Conclave should be as little of a resource sink as possible to the casual player in order to get more people willing to give it a go.

Edited March 29, 2017 by TheDrunkenKanaima

[Nazrethim]

Just now, TheDrunkenKanaima said:

A built weapon that can be traded seems like the most viable option, and I would personally like to see more conclave items added, I just don't imagine it'd go over well with most of the player base. But this is getting a little off topic so...

After seeing a huge backlash for a ship decoration that didn't have any impact whatsoever in game, I'm honestly sick of swhiners. Also, yeah offtopic lol.

Just now, TheDrunkenKanaima said:

While adding forma/catalyst/reactor blueprints to the weekly rewards could solve the issue, I still feel like it could create a problem bigger than the one it'd be solving. I'd actually prefer if the weekly rewards gave conclave only mods, and something other than resources.

Not really. The weekly giving Conclave only mods means that you get either:

A) new and amaizing conclave mods...which could potentially become a balance problem or

B) the same mods you get from random matches and standing... which you will get anyway.

Adding the sortie tables minus the usual undesirable rewards (because it's a once a week thing compared to the daily sortie) would be the best option. I would like to know what's the 'bigger problem' you are talking about.

Just now, TheDrunkenKanaima said:

To be honest I'd also prefer if conclave mods didn't have ranks and therefore required credits and endo. Conclave should be as little of a resource sink as possible to the casual player in order to get more people willing to give it a go.

The ranks and credits cost is adressed by playing Conclave actually, as Conclave can be a pretty good source of credits and Endo. The only resource sink Conclave has is getting weapons and warframes... which is a PvE resource sink, you can actually do well in Conclave from begining to end with starting frames and Mk-1 weapons.

[Kanaima]

10 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Adding the sortie tables minus the usual undesirable rewards (because it's a once a week thing compared to the daily sortie) would be the best option. I would like to know what's the 'bigger problem' you are talking about.

The ranks and credits cost is adressed by playing Conclave actually, as Conclave can be a pretty good source of credits and Endo. The only resource sink Conclave has is getting weapons and warframes... which is a PvE resource sink, you can actually do well in Conclave from begining to end with starting frames and Mk-1 weapons.

The "bigger problem" was in reference to people (not?) participating in conclave matches, afk farming, boosting, etc. purely in order to get their weekly reward. People would absolutely find ways to acquire them with as little effort and participation as possible, using the excuse that they were "forced" to participate in an activity they don't enjoy, just so they have that 1 extra shot at a riven or lens or whatever else they think they might find a use for. Don't get me wrong, I play conclave and more rewards would be awesome for me personally, unless the toxicity got bad enough that I decide playing conclave isn't enjoyable anymore, in which case I'd rather get what we currently do.

Edit: this is the main reason I suggested adding conclave specific forma etc. PvE focused players who despise conclave will find ways to get said items from conclave if they can be used in PvE, and miserable people doing things they hate are unsurprisingly generally not very pleasent to be around.

As for second part of the quote, those are all good points. I'd actually forgotten you even get credits and endo from conclave to be honest, and the credit bought weapons (Braton, Lato) are some of my favorites for conclave use (besides Grinlok.)

Edited March 29, 2017 by TheDrunkenKanaima

[Nazrethim]

Just now, TheDrunkenKanaima said:

The "bigger problem" was in reference to people (not?) participating in conclave matches, afk farming, boosting, etc. purely in order to get their weekly reward. People would absolutely find ways to aqcuire them with as little effort and participation as possible, using the excuse that they were "forced" to participate in an activity they don't enjoy, just so they have that 1 extra shot at a riven or lens or whatever else they think they might find a use for. Don't get me wrong, I play conclave and more rewards would be awesome for me personally, unless the toxicity got bad enough that I decide playing conclave isn't enjoyable anymore, in which case I'd rather get what we currently do.

That kind of behavior wouldn't last much, since to get anything you need to run public matches, ergo those players will run into conclave regulars all the time. Over time the flood would cease simply because their resolve about it would crumble. I would like at least 1 month of Weekly mission giving Sortie table (minus the usual 'garbage' rewards) to see how it works. If things turn out to be good let it stay, if not, declare the experiment done for the time being and return to the current.

Just now, TheDrunkenKanaima said:

 (besides Grinlok.)

*Kills someone*

"You have been [Grinloked]"

[-Jackson]

Agreed, I've had to add extra formas on top of gear I had already finished forma'ing for PvE due to mismatching polarities with certain mods, or just simply not having enough polarities for particular mods. While for some players this isn't a big deal, I don't think any player, especially newer ones should have to worry about potato'ing/polarising their gear just so they can use all the mods they want to use for PvP; PvE should not interfere with PvP in this manner.

[Witchydragon]

7 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Add Sortie reward tables (except for Anasa statue, 4k Endo and 'maybe' lenses) to the Conclave weekly for players who have completed TWW as a fifth reward. As for the platinum part... that could be somewhat adressed by making Conclave mods usable in PvE, and adding a Conclave Syndicate weapon and a Conclave Quest with a frame bp as reward and tradable parts for standing, then let trade sort things out.

No. While this may allow players to make progress on their weapons and warframes, it also makes Conclave much more lucrative to farm, rather than to play. While there will be players who opt into buying Conclave syndicate items right off the bat, there will also be a huge amount of players who play strictly to get the syndicate items to sell. The captura scenes had this effect, but to a small degree since they're only captura scenes. Syndicate frames and weapons would create such a huge influx of players farming for the rewards that it'll be Quick Steel all the time- people abstaining from the gameplay because it's 'broken' and throwing fits whenever someone wants to frag some people for fun.

8 hours ago, TheDrunkenKanaima said:

At the very least, since they have seperate builds for conclave, it'd be nice if weapons also used a seperate catalyst/reactor/polarity set, with conclave specific forma/catalysts/reactors being awarded rarely from end of match rewards/weekly/standing.

There are literally more than 200 weapons and 32 warframes + variants. This would just increase the conclave specific grind so much that players who have been playing conclave more have a much greater numerical advantage over those who haven't. I'd prefer there to be less reasons to grind conclave and more reasons to play it.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Witchydragon said:

No. While this may allow players to make progress on their weapons and warframes, it also makes Conclave much more lucrative to farm, rather than to play. While there will be players who opt into buying Conclave syndicate items right off the bat, there will also be a huge amount of players who play strictly to get the syndicate items to sell. The captura scenes had this effect, but to a small degree since they're only captura scenes. Syndicate frames and weapons would create such a huge influx of players farming for the rewards that it'll be Quick Steel all the time- people abstaining from the gameplay because it's 'broken' and throwing fits whenever someone wants to frag some people for fun.

That's a fair point. Not that I agree, mostly because I see Conclave as another syndicate and part of the game, not a separate thing, so I think it's okay that Conclave gets what the other syndicates do and viceversa. On the topic of people farming, I think it wouldn't be that bad, because as we've seen with Nidus' grind, many opted to buy the damn thing rather than farm for it, and if the weapon(built) and frameparts bps are tradable, that already takes out a chunk of the would-be farmers who would rather trade for it than farming for it. Quick Steel had way more people because it was seen as a temporary thing, so they were on the "MUST DO IT NOW!", but with something that it's just there forever, the influx of players will be much lower.

[Kanaima]

4 hours ago, Witchydragon said:

There are literally more than 200 weapons and 32 warframes + variants. This would just increase the conclave specific grind so much that players who have been playing conclave more have a much greater numerical advantage over those who haven't. I'd prefer there to be less reasons to grind conclave and more reasons to play it.

Yeah, I agree it isn't an ideal solution, and I do prefer your original suggestions, but it doesn't seem like anything in this game comes without grind, hence the "at the very least."

I just don't see them making it that easy. It would be nice though.

[Witchydragon]

2 hours ago, TheDrunkenKanaima said:

I just don't see them making it that easy. It would be nice though.

The rest of the game is grindy because there's no other way to progress. However Conclave has an alternative progression mechanism: player skill. Rather than resource sinks, item acquisition or syndicate level, people spend time in Conclave to get better or to have fun, and so the extra grind created by a need for potatoes and forma only serves to hinder players. There's no reason to not 'make it that easy'.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Witchydragon
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