Removing Serration

[nonaboyskill]

As we all know, mods like serration and multishot mods are mandatory for almost all weapon builds. A way to get rid of these band-aid mods is to have a weapon with its normal base damage when its unranked and have its damage increase as it levels. When the weapon hits max rank it would have the damage equivalent of a maxed serration equipped. Same idea can be applied with hornet strike with secondaries and pressure point with melees.

Maybe multishot as well?

[Kalvorax]

IIRC, that was exactly what Damage 3.0 was going to be before it got canned for the (useless and unneeded) proposed exmius "invulnerability"

at least that is what i got from the dev stream a few weeks ago (not sure on the number)

Edited March 21, 2017 by Kalvorax

[-FV-Metheria]

The issue: Weapons become even more powerful unless you remove a weapon mod slot since there is a new free slot opened up. In other words: You cause mass power rise for free, or you remove a weapon mod slot and you may as well have a permanent mod installed.

Edited March 21, 2017 by -FV-Metheria

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

Raw damage mods, multishot mods, elemental damage/status, critical chance/damage mods they're all mandatory and those occupy 75-90% of all weapon builds, by removing those you're left with next to nothing...

Edit : as FV said above, you're left with 7-8 new open slot to put another layer of mandatory mod.

Edited March 21, 2017 by (PS4)XxDarkyanxX

[ashrah]

primed serration and primed split chamber would be really cool

[shyguyk]

They should remove serration, make multishot split damage between bullets like the cernos prime, and turn all physical/elemental mods into conversions.

for example, equipping equipping a 30% toxin conversion (Infected Clip) would convert the sybaris's damage from 23.1 impact, 23.1 puncture, and 23.8 slash to 16.17 impact, 16.17 puncture, 16.66 slash, and 21 toxin damage.

[Loobiz]

That's what Damage 3.0 was supposed to be, but they said a few devstreams ago that it was now out of the table..

Although i would like to be able to put other mods instead of serration, it is true what they are saying, you take serration/multishot/crit chance out and then elemental mods/damage type mods become a must have cause they are the next ones on the line and it will always be like that, you will always have mods that are more useful in the meta than others. Taking them away doesn't fix anything, it simply changes the name of the problem.

I used to belive that having serration on all weapons was a must have and therefor a problem in the game. After thinking about it for some time I've came to the conclusion that it is not a must have, it's a decision I'm making to have that mod, to follow the meta.

 

[cx-dave]

Higher ranked players can already install max Serration and Multishot mods when the weapon is R0. I'd rather keep that then walk around with a useless weapon every time I Forma it.

To change this in any meaningful way would require a complete overhaul of the mod system. Things get complected really fast when you have to account for the investment in mods and time that players have put into the current system. I don't think an "easy" fix such as removing a mod and or slot is viable.

[Xekrin]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

Edit : as FV said above, you're left with 7-8 new open slot to put another layer of mandatory mod.

Not really, I mean there are 'mandatory mods' for specific weapons but not any that are mandatory for all weapons.  It would certainly diversify builds and make weapons in general more powerful over all but unless you know of a singular mod that MUST BE equipped on every weapon like what we currently have, then this is pretty much false.

Besides, we have rivens now which essentially could replace 2 or 3 mods in a single stroke.  But whatever, we won't know until it happens, and they are too afraid to do it yet.

34 minutes ago, Kalvorax said:

proposed exmius "invulnerability

eximus changes are a separate thing from the theoretical changes being labeled "Damage 3.0".  Those changes would cover the middle ground of enemies and make tactics and strategy a thing for npcs, basically NPC A.I. rewrite, which if done well would be very good for the game in general.

Still holding out hope they someday fix the lesser used (ie worthless) mods like IPS and status among others that are way outclassed by dual stat versions and rare set mods.

 

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

12 minutes ago, Loobiz said:

I used to belive that having serration on all weapons was a must have and therefor a problem in the game. After thinking about it for some time I've came to the conclusion that it is not a must have, it's a decision I'm making to have that mod, to follow the meta.

 

^ That. The problem isn't those mods, it's punch through, which, while also optional, trivializes enemies. The AI is tactical, we just never see that because it ends up dead before even being able to do anything. Just think, if DE changed punch through mods to only affect enemies instead of the environment, cover would become a priority again, and no amount of multishot or damage would be able to trivialize that. Of course, some weapons should keep their innate environmental punch through, like snipers to give them a role in the game, but other weapons *cough* Ignis *cough* would only be able to hit multiple enemies. If DE changed that, the game would suddenly have a lot more difficulty and abilities would once again become important to use and thinking becomes a necessity. Also on the chopping block, universally increasing swapping speed for small to medium weapons, removing/ changing Nullifiers specifically, buffing or nerfing/ reworking frames as needed, and introducing/ changing lore and weapons, and of course the usual bugfixes. Those are some things DE should get onto.

And giving Eximus units invulnerability & weak spots is just a laughable @(*()$ band-aid, glad that idea got shot down.

Edited March 21, 2017 by 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

Just now, Xekrin said:

Not really, I mean there are 'mandatory mods' for specific weapons but not any that are mandatory for all weapons.  It would certainly diversify builds and make weapons in general more powerful over all but unless you know of a singular mod that MUST BE equipped on every weapon like what we currently have, then this is pretty much false.

The problem I see with that is most likely the fact that there aren't many mods that are actually worth it. You end up with the new mandatory layer :
Reload speed, fire rate ( For slow weapons )
Other type of damage improving mods ( Status, Single damage mods ( slash,puncture,impact ),punch through )
Unique mod ( The one that add damage/critical/status upon doing a certain action )

Of course it's "Different" from the blunt raw damage mandatory that we have, but it sounds just about the same.

[V45H]

removing all base dammage mods pressure point serration and hornet strike is on the agenda for DE and there changing multishot at somepoint so that for each multi (shotted?) bullet it uses more for whatever you multishoot lol which sucks for some things but im not afraid of change so

[CarrotSalad]

Unless DE do something radical like relase a super weapon that takes up all 3 weapon slots and uses its own or certain type of mod set.  i think serration is the only mod that should be removed. Theres a strong mindset in the community that (serration before status/critical) and so it will always to eat up 14+ mod capicity. Which means those weapons that players consider mastery fodder (unpotatoed) are less likely to actually be experimented with.

In saying that Serration is a key part of gear development ingame. So i dont think theres any urgency aslong as the gear gap between new and old players isnt steep.

[Dahx11]

Looks like somebody has never heard of Damage 3.0

[Cazzzz]

Or maybe people can stop complaining about 'mandatory mods' when there are bigger matters that need addressing.

Solar Rails were released in U13, and we still have them in a technically unplayable state. Some frames need reworks before people even forget they exist (Lookin' at you Hydroid). I bet someone else could add to this list here of things that have some issues. 

Still don't understand what makes this whole "Damage 3.0" system so relevant. If you guys can't tell, DE is trying to Band-Aid it right now so they can focus on things that need the attention. Rivens exist for what purpose if not this or power-creep?

[Chewarette]

11 hours ago, -FV-Metheria said:

The issue: Weapons become even more powerful unless you remove a weapon mod slot since there is a new free slot opened up. In other words: You cause mass power rise for free, or you remove a weapon mod slot and you may as well have a permanent mod installed.

That shouldn't be so hard to "replace" Serration (165%) by a flat passive buff like +100% at max level to compensate for the damage buff of the extra mod.

But still, I don't really support a simple removal of "mandatory mods" without complete rework of the system. Removing all those mods (Serration and Multishot) will just make other mods "mandatory" and you'll never ever have to make any choice again. 

In my opinion, the main problem with the mods as of today is the existence of Rivens. They should be completely overhauled, because they simply suxx and don't bring anything to the game.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Chewarette

[EinheriarJudith]

9 hours ago, Chewarette said:

That shouldn't be so hard to "replace" Serration (165%) by a flat passive buff like +100% at max level to compensate for the damage buff of the extra mod.

But still, I don't really support a simple removal of "mandatory mods" without complete rework of the system. Removing all those mods (Serration and Multishot) will just make other mods "mandatory" and you'll never ever have to make any choice again. 

In my opinion, the main problem with the mods as of today is the existence of Rivens. They should be completely overhauled, because they simply suxx and don't bring anything to the game.

i agree with a complete rework of the system would have to be in order with the removal of damage mods. i also agree that said damage mods should be removed. the only things that should be modded on weapons are their utility/behavior. 

[Sloan441]

Damage mods are mandatory for things that do damage. Serration and the like aren't going anywhere in the near future, if at all.

The real question here is should weapons scale in and of themselves, or should it be through the player upgrading features. In this game, the decision was to go with the latter. Half a dozen of one, six of another.

I can about guarantee if base damage mods are removed, weapon upgrade slots will go with them. All you'd achieve otherwise is just adding more damage types. No one is going to give up damage mods if they don't have to.

Regardless, this is a moot point. Damage 3.0 is no longer a thing. DE is looking at AI behavior instead.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

Damage 3.0 should be about other issues on the damage system because:

1) If you remove Serration, everybody will use the next better mod and this will be the new mandatory mod. It wont change anything. 

2) If you remove serration and now a weapon with level 30 has the power of that weapon with serration, that weapon can be more powerful than it was before 

3) Problems that Damage 3.0 should be about:

    - Continuous weapons are ruined. The damage per tick, the stats per second... 

    - Snipers rework didnt change anything, They still dont have a place in a hoard based game, the zoom mechanic sometimes allow you to see inside enemies nostril. It just feels like giving the soldiers in the front some snipers so they can be swarmed by enemies and try to get the Zoom bonus

     - Older weapons are just forgotten. Last time I used Stug, the balls stuck in mid air not at the enemy for example. 

     - Status procs are absolutely out of balance. When you face corpus, it is just better to have a toxin proc in most of the cases because you can ignore shield, making the magnetic proc almost useless. Punture proc is a joke. Impact proc can be usefull but in a game where you have CC in all kind of forms, you almost dont need it. Slash procs destroy the world...

     - Armor scalling...

 I have list that could go on and on but just removing mandatory mods is a simplification of a much bigger picture. 

If you want to have 300 weapons in a game, you need to balance them in a way where at least they can fit in some situations. Or people will just pick 10 Meta weapons and forget about the rest... Damage 3.0 should be about balancing the hole system

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

     - Older weapons are just forgotten. Last time I used Stug, the balls stuck in mid air not at the enemy for example. 

Indeed, both sentences are a serious problem. The power creep is insane, buffs to older weapons are few and far between (I think the last old weapon buff was the Sicarus Prime buff), and the Stug had (has?) that annoying bug where balls that hit other balls don't stick to the enemy and just float there while the enemy runs

[Loobiz]

So we all agree (or almost all) that removing mods / mod slots is a bad idea and we are happy they stopped thinking about that.

We also agree damage system needs fixing in other ways but that there are more important things to take care of.

[RICK_BO]

I think a lot of the people saying "Removing serration because it is a 'mandatory mod' is useless because the next best mod will become mandatory" are missing the point. Every rifle I have gets serration because I need guns that do enough damage to dispatch enemies quickly. I don't customize my guns to balance weaknesses or min-max their strengths but merely raise damage with serration (and the like). I like the idea of including serrations 165% damage increase by weapon rank and removing the mod entirely. 

This way my weapon customization would actually be weapon customization. I've been filling my inventory with weapon slots in the case some weapon is used as materials for another in the future, so most of my weapons don't get catalysts. Which means almost half the mod capacity is spent on serration to try to keep some of these oddball weapons relevant. With only 30 capacity I might work on reload speed and fire rate, I might work on crit chance and damage, maybe go out for status. But I can't very well do that with serration in the way. What's the point of building my Grakata for crit when I'm multiplying 3s and 4s? Why buff my Supras firerate when I'm slinging peas? That serration is necessary means all my weapons might as well only have 16 capacity. The only weapon I can think of that doesn't benefit from it is an Ignis used as a status cannon and nothing else. Some weapons don't need fire rate; some don't need additional reload speed; but all weapons need (or at least; can use) damage increase.

Spoiler

On 3/20/2017 at 8:31 PM, cx-dave said:

Higher ranked players can already install max Serration and Multishot mods when the weapon is R0. I'd rather keep that then walk around with a useless weapon every time I Forma it.

To change this in any meaningful way would require a complete overhaul of the mod system. Things get complected really fast when you have to account for the investment in mods and time that players have put into the current system. I don't think an "easy" fix such as removing a mod and or slot is viable.

And you just don't want to give up your cushy laz-e-boy seat to Forma a weapon. A process that's supposed to be "A sacrifice that will make the item even more powerful"

 

[EinheriarJudith]

4 hours ago, RICK_BO said:

I've been filling my inventory with weapon slots in the case some weapon is used as materials for another in the future, so most of my weapons don't get catalysts.

this is rather an annoyance imo. if i use a weapon that has a catalyst it should carry over. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[Nurmetya]

Uh I may be mistaken but didn't DE put Damage 3.0 on the "its dead Jim" list? Cause I do recall them saying multishot and serration weren't gonna get the axe like they were thinking off doing. Granted this was also a little over 6 months ago and we've not heard squat on this topic from them in some time now and DE changes their minds all the time.

[Tora.Prime]

NO!