Hydroid Needs to Be Reworked

[Kerberos-3]

When it comes to reworks, I divide them into two kinds. The first is the slight modification, when a frame is, for the most part, pretty good, but he could use some help to make his other strategies viable(Chroma comes to mind here, and no, he doesn't need to be able to switch elements on command to be good). And then you have the frames who basically need to be overhauled in order to be brought up to par, such as Zephyr and Oberon.

[(PSN)psycofang]

7 hours ago, SeaUrchins said:

wanna-be tank Ice Chroma

 

You mean the only real tank in the game?

[Asphaltwings]

9 hours ago, SharkPot said:

Zephyr doesn't even need a rework and nor does Limbo. Anyone who has actually spent time with those frames know it very well. If anything if I had to award to being the strongest frame i would give it to Zephyr.

I haven't played Zephyr enough to comment on her, but I definitely agree with what you said about Limbo, he's a very good frame as is. The rework they have done for him looks interesting and I will be trying it with an open mind when it goes live.

[AlendasNaro]

9 hours ago, SharkPot said:

Zephyr doesn't even need a rework and nor does Limbo. Anyone who has actually spent time with those frames know it very well. If anything if I had to award to being the strongest frame i would give it to Zephyr.

Actually friend of mine has said this quite many times: "Only things you need to do to Zephyr is integrate the Dive Bomb in to Tail Wind. Boom one free ability slot to play with. Nothing else is required on Zephyr" and you know... That sounds so simple that I am quite surprised how DE hasn't done this yet. Although yet again they are busy with other content right now so we can't blame them really also Limbo is in greater need of rework than Zephyr right now.

[SharkPot]

3 hours ago, AlendasNaro said:

Actually friend of mine has said this quite many times: "Only things you need to do to Zephyr is integrate the Dive Bomb in to Tail Wind. Boom one free ability slot to play with. Nothing else is required on Zephyr" and you know... That sounds so simple that I am quite surprised how DE hasn't done this yet. Although yet again they are busy with other content right now so we can't blame them really also Limbo is in greater need of rework than Zephyr right now.

The problem lies in the augment you see. If you integrate both abilities the augment will start to conflict with which ability it is too chose and will bug out. It ain't as easy said than done. Also I actually do prefer the standard mode as then i don't need to jump 20 feet high just to use my augmented second ability for a room wide kd. Instead just a light jump allows me to do so.

[AlendasNaro]

3 hours ago, SharkPot said:

The problem lies in the augment you see. If you integrate both abilities the augment will start to conflict with which ability it is too chose and will bug out. It ain't as easy said than done. Also I actually do prefer the standard mode as then i don't need to jump 20 feet high just to use my augmented second ability for a room wide kd. Instead just a light jump allows me to do so.

Huh,,, I didn't know that DE has created game with AI that rewrites itself if required order to update the game. Well... Something new every day. To be straight you honestly thought I forgot about the augments? Of course they are going to get a treatment to work properly. All other augments to Zephyr are not used except the Turbulence one. How the dive bomb is going to work in Tail Wind is that aim down and press 1 instead of casting Tail Wind you cast Dive Bomb.

Btw. Seriously. How an augment stops DE to work on making changes to Warframes? Tell me does the augments for Limbo stop reworking him?

[SharkPot]

21 minutes ago, AlendasNaro said:

Huh,,, I didn't know that DE has created game with AI that rewrites itself if required order to update the game. Well... Something new every day. To be straight you honestly thought I forgot about the augments? Of course they are going to get a treatment to work properly. All other augments to Zephyr are not used except the Turbulence one. How the dive bomb is going to work in Tail Wind is that aim down and press 1 instead of casting Tail Wind you cast Dive Bomb.

Btw. Seriously. How an augment stops DE to work on making changes to Warframes? Tell me does the augments for Limbo stop reworking him?

Well they have straight up gone for a clean up across the board for Limbo. Thus the augments don't matter.

The problem lies in the condition the augment should work. Thing is when mid air tail wind has one function ie. more in direction of pointer, whereas dive bomb is straight dive. Its much like how ground smash should work. But when you add extra factors it ends up turning a mess as now the dive bomb has to also cast the kd as well.

And we have gone off topic.

[Asphaltwings]

On 3/22/2017 at 8:21 PM, SharkPot said:

And we have gone off topic.

Well, let's bring it back to the topic at hand. As you don't agree with myself or the others who believe that Hydroid needs a rework, do you have any constructive criticism for how he could at least, be improved, something that could potentially make other players decide to stop overlooking him, etc?

[o.0-]

Hydroid does need tweaks, but not necessarily a full rework. There are a few spots where I can see improvements for Hydroid. Tweaks I'd consider:

Passive, Hydroelectric:

• Enemies drowned by abilities have a chance to grant a small bit of energy in some form, how can be up to the devs.

Tempest Barrage:

• Where the crosshair is pointed, a cannon emerges from the ground that attacks enemies horizontally, instead of from above. Maybe the cannon can burst in a radial style around it, or possibly be omni-directional cone of damage.

Tidal Surge:

• Costs less. Think 50 is too much, unless the Augment gets rolled into base ability and a new Augment is created.

Undertow:

• Able to cast the other abilities if Hydroid has the energy; Tidal Surge can move Undertow in the direction of the Crosshair, creating a synergy between the abilities.

Tentacle Swarm:

• Instead of the current setup, the Tentacles wrap around enemies, keeping them in their place and crushing/drowning them and doesn't do the caveman smash all over the place, to maximize the ability. Consider allowing Tentacles to seek a target and drag it towards Hydroid. So that as Hydroid moves around the Tentacles would be able to drag enemies towards Hydroid, using the navigation mesh that the AI uses.

[SharkPot]

18 hours ago, Asphaltwings said:

Well, let's bring it back to the topic at hand. As you don't agree with myself or the others who believe that Hydroid needs a rework, do you have any constructive criticism for how he could at least, be improved, something that could potentially make other players decide to stop overlooking him, etc?

Just one actually. Let Tidal Surge be able to cast when Im in Undertow. That would be the only thing I want from Hydroid. Other than that he is pretty good to me.

[Celthric317]

The things I'd change about Hydroid are:

1. He needs more Ehp, either with armor increase or more shield/hp

2. His 1st ability "Tempest barrage": needs to be pinpoint location. At the moment you cannot use it around corners and such, without it getting stuck on walls and doors.

3. His 3rd ability "Undertow": could use tweaking where either he regains some of his hp while under, or where enemies are slighty pulled toward the pool, similar to Inaros sarcophagus. 

 

Otherwise I think Hydroid is a really powerful Warframe with a lot of damage and CC, and I am strongly considering putting a potato on him and a bunch of forma.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Celthric317

[SharkPot]

1 hour ago, Celthric317 said:

The things I'd change about Hydroid are:

1. He needs more Ehp, either with armor increase or more shield/hp

2. His 1st ability "Tempest barrage": needs to be pinpoint location. At the moment you cannot use it around corners and such, without it getting stuck on walls and doors.

3. His 3rd ability "Undertow": could use tweaking where either he regains some of his hp while under, or where enemies are slighty pulled toward the pool, similar to Inaros sarcophagus. 

 

Otherwise I think Hydroid is a really powerful Warframe with a lot of damage and CC, and I am strongly considering putting a potato on him and a bunch of forma.

he has an augment for Undertow for healing btw.

[Asphaltwings]

21 hours ago, SharkPot said:

Just one actually. Let Tidal Surge be able to cast when Im in Undertow. That would be the only thing I want from Hydroid. Other than that he is pretty good to me.

That seems like a pretty fair addition to me.

I think the tentacles can be improved a little by not turning the game into waste of bullets VII when you try and shoot whatever they have grabbed. If you added both of these into Hydroid, I would be satisfied I think.

[kapn655321]

I love Hydroid the way he is.
He's my main.

Tip: Only 4 when reviving.

1, 2, 3 = Enemies cannot get footing. Ever.

Slow powerful guns work great.
Begin a reload before you Undertow. Will complete while under. Use Curative Undertow for heals.

1 AoE staggers/knockdown + CC, 2 directional movement + stagger/knockdown + CC, 3 stealth + heal + CC + reload.

But... people just 4 spam.
4 spam is what makes him bad.
Don't 4 spam.. try to actually use some skill.
He's Incredibly satisfying and well rounded, solo or party.

Granted, aim on 1 and 4 are a bit Janky.. I cast those with abandon.
1 spam is overall very useful if you're not relying on it to be accurate.
2 makes you temporarily invulnerable and unstoppable directionally.
3 is the best move in the game. Hands down.
4 is a panic button.

[Buddhakingpen]

Hydroid is lowkey high mid tier right now. No one really knows it, but his buffs over the past half year or so have helped him tremendously. Even a lot of vets i know are like "wow, when did hydroid get this good?"

First, they brought in the stealth multipliers on repeated knockdowns. Thats pretty key to his damage output. He gets stealth multipliers for using literally any of his moves. 

Then, they brought his tempest barrage rework and corroding barrage augment. So he can get guaranteed knockdowns over a respectable radius, while helping his team do more damage than they would otherwise

Then they made tempest barrage one handed, so you can spam it at your leisure. 

His 1 gives stealth finishers on top of ground finisher multipliers (if you choose to do them) is one handed, spammable, infinite cast range, can shred armor, and is one of the veeeerry few warframe powers in the game that poops on nullifiers. 

His 2 is on command invincibility, mobility, and cc(another knockdown, to keep enemies in an unalert state=Stealth multipliers). If you cant control it well, keep neutral duration

His 3 is certainly niche,, but once again, instantly puts all enemies affected in an unalert state. That shotgunner on mot got the drop on you? Press 3, re emerge and piss on his soul with op damage. 

His 4 is good supplementary cc. It wont be THE thing that keeps a team alive in an endurance run, but it slows the waves down just enough that other forms of cc become more effective. Also its interaction with unalert state works like rhino stomp, as in, if you get enemies into unalert state (which you will, because you will be spamming tempest barrage nonstop) then every enemy grabbed by a tentacle is suspended in an unalert state until after they get up when the ult is over. 

Hydroid is fine. People are just bad with him.  I would have agreed around this time last year, but things have changed. 

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by Buddhakingpen

[Ernestasx]

15 hours ago, Buddhakingpen said:

Hydroid is lowkey high mid tier right now. No one really knows it, but his buffs over the past half year or so have helped him tremendously. Even a lot of vets i know are like "wow, when did hydroid get this good?"

First, they brought in the stealth multipliers on repeated knockdowns. Thats pretty key to his damage output. He gets stealth multipliers for using literally any of his moves. 

Then, they brought his tempest barrage rework and corroding barrage augment. So he can get guaranteed knockdowns over a respectable radius, while helping his team do more damage than they would otherwise

Then they made tempest barrage one handed, so you can spam it at your leisure. 

His 1 gives stealth finishers on top of ground finisher multipliers (if you choose to do them) is one handed, spammable, infinite cast range, can shred armor, and is one of the veeeerry few warframe powers in the game that poops on nullifiers. 

His 2 is on command invincibility, mobility, and cc(another knockdown, to keep enemies in an unalert state=Stealth multipliers). If you cant control it well, keep neutral duration

His 3 is certainly niche,, but once again, instantly puts all enemies affected in an unalert state. That shotgunner on mot got the drop on you? Press 3, re emerge and piss on his soul with op damage. 

His 4 is good supplementary cc. It wont be THE thing that keeps a team alive in an endurance run, but it slows the waves down just enough that other forms of cc become more effective. Also its interaction with unalert state works like rhino stomp, as in, if you get enemies into unalert state (which you will, because you will be spamming tempest barrage nonstop) then every enemy grabbed by a tentacle is suspended in an unalert state until after they get up when the ult is over. 

Hydroid is fine. People are just bad with him.  I would have agreed around this time last year, but things have changed. 

 

Pretty much this.

I don't get it why people think he is weak while he is my favorite frame with Zephyr (i like the so - called underdogs, i guess).

The only changes to him that i would love would be the ability to cast your 2 when using the 3 for fluid succession, his 1, 4 get much faster animations and his 2 gets either wider or gets more responsive and could move more fluently.

These are all the things i want for him, but he surely is viable and really strong, people just expect him to be a 4 warrior or something. I never spammed 4 blindly, especially not on him when i have his other parts of the kit.

[IcicleFerret]

I'll be honest, I spam the tentacles. BUT I've build him for it: Natural Talent, minimum energy cost, maximum power strength, and lowered duration let me mow down waves of enemies in survival missions just by aiming at the different points of entry. I'm working on a build that focuses on ability duration and range, the intent being to make him complete CC at the cost of damage, but I've yet to test it. That said, I think he's actually pretty good. His regular form has the defensive capability of a wet paper bag, (pun not intended?) which doesn't suit a lot of players' styles or those who expect someone as stocky-looking as Hydroid to be a tank.

[SharkPot]

6 hours ago, IcicleFerret said:

I'll be honest, I spam the tentacles. BUT I've build him for it: Natural Talent, minimum energy cost, maximum power strength, and lowered duration let me mow down waves of enemies in survival missions just by aiming at the different points of entry. I'm working on a build that focuses on ability duration and range, the intent being to make him complete CC at the cost of damage, but I've yet to test it. That said, I think he's actually pretty good. His regular form has the defensive capability of a wet paper bag, (pun not intended?) which doesn't suit a lot of players' styles or those who expect someone as stocky-looking as Hydroid to be a tank.

Go for max cast speed(natural talent+speed drift), max range and max eff. You will be surprised.

[Asphaltwings]

On 3/29/2017 at 8:39 PM, SharkPot said:

Go for max cast speed(natural talent+speed drift), max range and max eff. You will be surprised.

 

On 3/26/2017 at 6:24 PM, kapn655321 said:

I love Hydroid the way he is.
He's my main.

Tip: Only 4 when reviving.

1, 2, 3 = Enemies cannot get footing. Ever.

Slow powerful guns work great.
Begin a reload before you Undertow. Will complete while under. Use Curative Undertow for heals.

1 AoE staggers/knockdown + CC, 2 directional movement + stagger/knockdown + CC, 3 stealth + heal + CC + reload.

But... people just 4 spam.
4 spam is what makes him bad.
Don't 4 spam.. try to actually use some skill.
He's Incredibly satisfying and well rounded, solo or party.

Granted, aim on 1 and 4 are a bit Janky.. I cast those with abandon.
1 spam is overall very useful if you're not relying on it to be accurate.
2 makes you temporarily invulnerable and unstoppable directionally.
3 is the best move in the game. Hands down.
4 is a panic button.

So, I have returned after trying out the suggestions you guys have made, and I do have to admit, you have really given me a much better opinion of Hydroid. Paired with a frost or a Volt in defensive positions you're abilities make it incredibly difficult for enemies to function properly. Unfortunately I still find him a bit to fragile for higher level missions, but that may have just been some bad luck with my positioning when I was testing him in those missions. I have taken a real liking to keeping things CC'd with his 1&2 and running about with Ack and Brunt, using his 4 to lock down defensive positions like mobile defense objectives, etc. I don't find myself thinking to use undertow much, but i'm sure as I keep playing him I will figure out ideal times to work it in.

TL;DR: I'm admitting I was incorrect, Hydroid is a pretty great frame, and a lot of fun to play when you get him going. But a few tweaks would be nice, like being able to move in undertow with Tidal Surge and less wild tentacles.

[Air-mage]

dps+durations hydro is good, and puddle aside his whole kit is entertaining and quite good (its just meh, not bad, but meh)

[Air-mage]

10 hours ago, Asphaltwings said:

 

So, I have returned after trying out the suggestions you guys have made, and I do have to admit, you have really given me a much better opinion of Hydroid. Paired with a frost or a Volt in defensive positions you're abilities make it incredibly difficult for enemies to function properly. Unfortunately I still find him a bit to fragile for higher level missions, but that may have just been some bad luck with my positioning when I was testing him in those missions. I have taken a real liking to keeping things CC'd with his 1&2 and running about with Ack and Brunt, using his 4 to lock down defensive positions like mobile defense objectives, etc. I don't find myself thinking to use undertow much, but i'm sure as I keep playing him I will figure out ideal times to work it in.

TL;DR: I'm admitting I was incorrect, Hydroid is a pretty great frame, and a lot of fun to play when you get him going. But a few tweaks would be nice, like being able to move in undertow with Tidal Surge and less wild tentacles.

just use wave forms to skip damage and rush to safety or single strong targets you can cc with melee

[Air-mage]

On 2017. 03. 22. at 3:55 AM, AlendasNaro said:

Actually friend of mine has said this quite many times: "Only things you need to do to Zephyr is integrate the Dive Bomb in to Tail Wind. Boom one free ability slot to play with. Nothing else is required on Zephyr" and you know... That sounds so simple that I am quite surprised how DE hasn't done this yet. Although yet again they are busy with other content right now so we can't blame them really also Limbo is in greater need of rework than Zephyr right now.

As a zephyr main i agree with your friend, (also she would need some parkour-interaction fix)

[Air-mage]

On 2017. 03. 21. at 6:01 PM, SharkPot said:

Zephyr doesn't even need a rework and nor does Limbo. Anyone who has actually spent time with those frames know it very well. If anything if I had to award to being the strongest frame i would give it to Zephyr.

zephyr nose dive would most definitely need a rework, or even better, an integration to tail wind+melee ground smash or crouching, so she could have an actual wind like spell on her second which could push or pull her enemies in her tornadoes

[SenorClipClop]

On 3/21/2017 at 1:06 AM, Asphaltwings said:

Lets be honest, Hydroid is one of the less played frames, and doesn't seem to particularly great at anything. The question is does he need a complete rework or should he just be buffed? Who deserves a rework first, Hydroid or Oberon? I don't have any great ideas for how Hydroid could be improved at this point, apart from replacing his ability to become a puddle, which is just boring.

What do you guys think?

I really don't think Hydroid needs a rework. He's thematically interesting, effective and (for me) fun to play. I even get really good damage with him. (The important thing is to respect that his powers are all utility and should not be relied on for damage, but are great for setting yourself to maximizing weapon damage.) He may be fairly unpopular because of his lack of highly damaging powers, and maybe because he drops from arguably the most frustrating boss fight in the entire game. He could be improved, absolutely, but I don't think he needs anything so strong as a rework. Maybe just a minor update.

Undertow is a little bit... niche, and on top of that it's not hugely engaging. It's useful for grouping a line of enemies into one spot to prep them for his 1 and 4, but it might be a bit more interesting if he could lay down a Duration-based trap instead, or at least have something within the power that gave the player more agency when using the skill.

Beyond that, I think that just a little more clarity would go a long way. Having specific circumference indicators on his 1 and 4 to show exactly the area of effect (just a thin cicrular line of energy) would be nice. And also a little more consistency with those powers would work wonders. I've seen a few instances of enemies walking right through Barrage and Hentai Swarm without a scratch.

[kapn655321]

On 4/1/2017 at 1:07 AM, Asphaltwings said:

 

So, I have returned after trying out the suggestions you guys have made, and I do have to admit, you have really given me a much better opinion of Hydroid. Paired with a frost or a Volt in defensive positions you're abilities make it incredibly difficult for enemies to function properly. Unfortunately I still find him a bit to fragile for higher level missions, but that may have just been some bad luck with my positioning when I was testing him in those missions. I have taken a real liking to keeping things CC'd with his 1&2 and running about with Ack and Brunt, using his 4 to lock down defensive positions like mobile defense objectives, etc. I don't find myself thinking to use undertow much, but i'm sure as I keep playing him I will figure out ideal times to work it in.

TL;DR: I'm admitting I was incorrect, Hydroid is a pretty great frame, and a lot of fun to play when you get him going. But a few tweaks would be nice, like being able to move in undertow with Tidal Surge and less wild tentacles.

The day Curative Undertow came out was the absolute best.

To fix the fragility, I gave him Rage + Quick Thinking, Vitality, and Curative Undertow...
well, I say that, but the whole build I have is around tweaking his durability.
His abilities do what I need them to power wise.. I don't expect them to kill. I do that part.
So the point went to longevity. This is how I set it:

Energy Siphon. Handspring
Rage. Quick Thinking. Constitution. Fleeting Expertise.
Curative Undertow. Natural Talent. Rapid Resilience. Vitality.

This is 500+ hours of game play with Hydroid,
so it is absolutely deeply late game viable.
Just takes some easing into.
...He might get to dangerous low health fast,
but that balances with being able to puddle heal,
and CC when he comes up to, "turn the tides."

Favorite frame, no doubt.

Edited April 2, 2017 by kapn655321
Typos, completing a thought