Make 'alt-fire' toggle at the weapon level to switch or fire secondary mode on all relevant weapons

[Xekrin]

Please read the entire thread.  Below is the unedited content of my original post and I feel it should be preserved as such as it sparked many other and better ideas.  Primarily the idea now reflected in the new title, which is we should have a toggle integrated at the weapon level similar to the "show appearance" toggle that allows us to choose between alt-fire working as a trigger and switching the fire mode to secondary fire.

Thank you.

Zarr and Stradavar set something of a precedent and that is tapping the alt-fire key (mouse wheel, or whatever) actually 'switches' modes rather than merely firing (such as on javlok) the alternate firing mode.

This would be amazingly useful on any weapon where the alt-fire mode is actually an entirely separate mode, rather than a quick release attack (again such as javlok).  

Weapons like Euphona and Panthera have completely separate modes of fire that are far more than just tap once and done.  Even Quanta users might argue it would be useful. I use Javlok (and Ferrox) as an example of a weapon that doesn't really need this change because of all the weapons with alt-fire mechanics, its one of few that doesn't need fired more than once.

 Penta and Buzlok are a couple more examples.  Quick taps of the alt-fire do one thing, and don't require rapid fire taps to function.  You cannot fire repeatedly so they don't switch.  Meanwhile Panthera alt-fire necessitates the need to actually hold it down to fire.

My suggestion is a toggle option (such as what we have for tap/hold mechanics in abilities) that switches between them that affects such weapons instead of getting weapons with dual modes and not knowing if alt-fire will switch or immediately fire.

I realize that adding toggles for everything isn't quick nor easy so this is just an idea to placate all sides.  Regardless, there seems to be two types of alt-fire weapons.

• Alt-fire triggers a specific effect or mechanic
• Alt-fire is a different attack altogether

The first category would include javlok, ferrox, penta, buzlok, harpak, paracyst and any weapon that performs a specific function.  These are fine as a quick tap to activate.

The second category includes weapons like Euphona, Zarr, Stradavar, Panthera, Quanta and possibly a few others that I don't recall.  These weapons are actually shooting bullets, and functioning as a different weapon and should be effectively utilized as such.  Specifically allowing us to use our primary fire button/key to shoot them.

Consistency is important in games, if one weapon does a thing, other weapons that work functionally the same should also work the same way.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Xekrin
edited title to update to a better concept

[Justice_Ember]

6 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Consistency is important in games, if one weapon does a thing, other weapons that work functionally the same should also work the same way.

Yes, I'm a Panthera user and it would be incredibly usefull to switch to Alt-Fire instead of pressing it constantly, after all right and left buttons on the mouse are for constant use while all the others should be for eventual use.

[AdunSaveMe]

This would not work for all weapons. The harpak, or the azima, for example.

It would be nice to have both options for weapons, with the only issue being keybindings.

Edited March 22, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[Panztr]

I disagree, I prefer that my secondary fire shoots right away. I hate the zarr and stradavar switch modes because it slows things down a bit and makes more annoying to manage. Why would you have a toggle on fire modes when you can just fire right away. I can understand switching modes if there were more than 2 states because controllers have a limited amount of buttons but since right now alt fire weapons have only 2 states there should not be a toggle.

[Zeyez]

i could agree with almost everything... except Quanta (Vandal) using the alt-fire to switch fire modes, since those cubes can interact directly with the beam, doing extra damage (basically, you need to use both fire modes quickly), plus this weapon can't rely on alt-fire all time since it cost an lot of ammo, unlike Euphona Prime, because this one, in general, ask you to keep using only one fire mode, since your mod customization only can min-max one of them, the other mode only will be used on exceptional situations, as result.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Zeyez
like this topic, everything in the world can be changed, it just need the right words... and the left ones too.

[Xekrin]

8 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

This would not work for all weapons. The harpak, or the azima, for example.

36 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

The first category would include javlok, ferrox, penta, buzlok, harpak, paracyst and any weapon that performs a specific function.  These are fine as a quick tap to activate.

 

5 minutes ago, Panztr said:

I disagree, I prefer that my secondary fire shoots right away.

36 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

My suggestion is a toggle option (such as what we have for tap/hold mechanics in abilities) that switches between them that affects such weapons instead of getting weapons with dual modes and not knowing if alt-fire will switch or immediately fire.

I realize that adding toggles for everything isn't quick nor easy so this is just an idea to placate all sides.

 

---

Feels weird, having to quote myself to respond to replies.  Its almost like you didn't read the entire post.  Feel free to do so now.

 

[Tain_OSkoom]

Rather than uncomfortably stuff weapons into categories, just put the preference at the weapon level (similar to the "does this show while unequipped?" toggles) rather than at the application level. Everybody wins.

[Ditto132]

I thought that Euphona Prime control scheme would be the same as Zarr, toggling to switch between slug and pellets. Why the inconsistency?
Being a player that uses controller, I would prefer Euphona Prime control scheme to be the same as Zarr, as it is very inconvenient to keep using the secondary-fire frequently when my playstyle is more toward using the secondary mode. This is especially true when the secondary-fire button is one of the face buttons (A, B, X, Y) since your right thumb is removed from the thumbstick to be able to press the button, thus unable to track the target and shoot.

Also, if secondary-fire is mapped to the right thumb stick button, frequent use of it would wear/break the thumbstick.
I had injured my left thumb due to this issue when sprint while moving by pressing the left thumbstick, and my thumbstick is behaving weirdly as if the 'W' key is being pressed most of the time, making my frame walking forward automatically.

DE should fix the resume sprint after performing any contextual actions and un-aiming down sight, so that players don't need to perform the unnecessary activation of the sprint. Lot of players have been requesting this feature/QoL changes for quite a long time already...

This issue should be looked into since it would also affect console players.

[Xekrin]

29 minutes ago, Tain_OSkoom said:

Rather than uncomfortably stuff weapons into categories, just put the preference at the weapon level (similar to the "does this show while unequipped?" toggles) rather than at the application level. Everybody wins.

I was just thinking that a few minutes ago.  Because of the wide array of weapons that have such functions and how players tend to have their own style.  It would also be great on the tap/hold toggle for abilities.  As some people are forced to constantly switch it for ivara versus vauban.

[Xekrin]

Since an argument can be made for pretty much every weapon this type of change would affect, and a universal toggle is a bit unwieldy, I propose something of a more unique solution.

This would affect all weapons with an alt-fire and could be easier and a bit more elegant than toggles pre-mission.

The idea is fairly simple: Tapping it, even rapidly simply fires the secondary attack mode.  However holding alt-fire for a second would immediately fire as normal but once held down automatically switches it over.

This can be done on the go for all weapons and wouldn't require much thought.  Weapons like panthera are a no-brainer.  Holding it down switches while firing.  Afterward it becomes the primary fire and the previous primary reverts to secondary fire.  

Weapons like Harpak, which are normally a quick fire and release can be switched to primary grapple hook mode with a fast burst shot on alt-fire.  Quanta can either be rapid tapped for a bunch of cubes quickly, or held to switch and have the lazer be alt-fire for immediate explosions.

This would of course require tweaking for certain weapons and probably won't make everyone happy with every weapon, but it allows the player to choose which mode is primary at a moment's notice rather than being stuck with it because of a toggle.

Well, I'm trying anyway.

[armedpoop]

I actually like the alt fire JUST firing the alt fire instead of it switching to it. I prefer not exploding because my Zarr isnt on the right mode. 

Honestly, the Zarr would be much better if alt fire was just a shotgun blast instead of a switch. I feel like an option for how alt fire works would be better than just a blanket change.

[Horonelius]

Maybe give us the option to switch between switchable fire modes, and using the alt fire mode with the alt fire button?

Put it in the upgrade screen somewhere?

Edited March 22, 2017 by Horonelius

[AdunSaveMe]

11 hours ago, Xekrin said:

 

 

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Feels weird, having to quote myself to respond to replies.  Its almost like you didn't read the entire post.  Feel free to do so now.

 

Reading is hard.

[Loswaith]

A toggle would be good for the stugg as well, having to hold alt-fire for the large glob (when it used to be just a charge action on the fire key) is cumbersome, so being able to switch it from auto fire (current fire way) to semi-auto (the old tap-fire or hold for charge fire).

Edited March 23, 2017 by Loswaith

[Yato69]

I absolutely agree with this topic. But there is more that i want added onto this, a node within the said weapon's mod loadout, where it will show you its stat changes for each fire mode, this would be great, because it would pave a road to a new way of modding, modding for either both fire mods, or one mode.

[(PSN)Brewwonder]

As long as we're talking about modes and stats... Can we please fix the weapon mod screen so that our tenno's head doesn't block the weapon stats?!? The new Ivara helmet is a serious offender. Possible DE???

[DrBorris]

I too want the toggle as a person who prefers Euphona's style due to having all-time bound to a side mouse button. It would make suidciding with Zarr due having the wrong mode on not a thing anymore for me. 

[ashrah]

On 3/22/2017 at 5:01 PM, AdunSaveMe said:

This would not work for all weapons. The harpak, or the azima, for example.

It would be nice to have both options for weapons, with the only issue being keybindings.

i miss old system we had m22 alt fire.. and zoom

[Madway7]

I was disappointed the Euphona Prime was like this when I finally got it.

In the case of the Harpak it's fine as that's more for utility rather than another way to shoot things down.

I heard this is an issue with the Hind aswell after it got it's new fire mode, they kinda did a similar thing to the Stradavar where 1 mode is better than the other, but in the Hinds case the better mode is locked behind constantly pressing the alt fire button.

[MudShadow]

I don't understand why you'd want to toggle switch instead of just alt firing straight away.

With Euphona you can just shoot a slug to an enemy which is far away and then press alt fire to instantly shotgun a enemy which runs into your face. And then go back to firing slugs by just pressing the fire button.

With a switch mode. You'd shoot an enenmy with a slug, then have to press a button to switch modes. Then press fire button again to shoot the shotgun mode.Then have to press a button again to switch back to slug mode.Then press the fire mode to shoot slug. 

It's a less efficient and worse desgined process.

[Xekrin]

20 minutes ago, MudShadow said:

I don't understand why you'd want to toggle switch instead of just alt firing straight away.

You mean why would anyone want to use a shotgun?  Or Zarr's alt-fire for more than a single click?  Have you ever used Panthera's alt-fire?  Besides, the predominant suggestion is to add it to the weapon level (similar to show/hide weapon) so each player can choose their own method. If you prefer using alt-fire on every weapon, that'd be your decision, it shouldn't be made for all of us on random weapons.

DE introduced the alt-fire switch with stradavar and zarr, they should make use of that mechanic more.  There are those who'd like to see zarr's alt-fire work as a trigger mode, others prefer it the other way around.

Its fine if you like it that way, but that should not be the reason for not letting others play how they would like to play.  When they introduced the tap/hold mechanic with Ivara, they used it on Vauban's revamped 2nd ability.  People did not appreciate that they had to hold to throw mines, DE gave us the option of a toggle.

The ideal is the same here.

[(PSN)DBR87]

On 3/22/2017 at 9:04 AM, Panztr said:

I disagree, I prefer that my secondary fire shoots right away. I hate the zarr and stradavar switch modes because it slows things down a bit and makes more annoying to manage. Why would you have a toggle on fire modes when you can just fire right away. I can understand switching modes if there were more than 2 states because controllers have a limited amount of buttons but since right now alt fire weapons have only 2 states there should not be a toggle.

Because us console peasants have to use right stick for alt fire. The same stick we use to aim we have to hold down to activate Pantera's alt fire.

It's incredibly cumbersome and annoying, especially since Zarr and Stradavar don't work that way.

If I had to sacrifice a mili-second in order to switch firing modes for better ease of use/comfort I would. They should at least make it an option.

[VictorVonMagnum]

On 27.5.2017 at 8:57 PM, Madway7 said:

I heard this is an issue with the Hind aswell after it got it's new fire mode... in the Hinds case the better mode is locked behind constantly pressing the alt fire button.

I agree with the original proposition exactly because of the Hind. Semi-automatic fire seems vastly superior to the 5 round burst, and thus it would be a quality of life improvement to enable a fire mode switch for it.

I cannot comment on the other weapons mentioned, however making it an option (perhaps accessible through the game menu) would allow all users to have the final say on the matter, which seems like the smart approach.

[PrivateRiem]

So we'd go from

-Having one button strictly for primary fire

-Having one button strictly for secondary fire

to

-Having one button for Primary and secondary fire

-Having one button that changes the function of the other button between primary and secondary fire

 

Seems like a huge hassle just to make things less functional.

Bonus: It would completely ruin my controller setup, and would make it impossible for me to get something similar to what I currently have.

[Xolgys]

agreeing with the topic. on something like the javlok its okay to have it as is because its not something like a rapid fire mode. but on panthera or tenora its highly annoying and during movement even a bit impractical depending on which key u have alt fire bound. on the javlok for example as mentioned its logic because its a situational throw which is not something done with a high frequency. but the question is...whats the benefit or logic using such a firing mechanic on weapons like tenora or panthera ? it would be much more logic and practical (and fun) to use the same mechanic as on the stradavar for example. tenora and stradavar are actually quite similar...both have an assault rifle primary and a more sniperish/latronish 2ndary fire mode.