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Coming Soon: Weapon Balance Pass.


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31 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Since we are removing the main damage aspect of this weapon could you guys rewert the changes made to its effect?

Because with these theres no point in making its effect only work while equipping, since it doesnt deal any damage.

Agreed, make it available on quick melee

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21 minutes ago, Zrima said:

You can step back all you want, if you're using your Ogris from afar to take down some targets, and another warframe blocks your shot in front of your face, you will go down.

And they won't, and you're not the one playing badly there.

I'm all against the Tonkor in its current state, but let's be honest, it's hard to keep track of bouncy timed grenade in the middle of a fight.

Especially in this game where you have to be really mobile. You're bound to be hit by one of your own detonations. After the nerf, this one random hit will kill you. Sounds very unsafe to me, I'd take a Penta, even without tether grenades, over those timed disaster any day of the week.

Accidental troll is bad, yes, and i was cought by this as well. 

Tonkor's grenades now will be less bouncy, so i think it will help with random self-kills.

Other than that, i have never experienced a huge problems with self-damage.

There are still quite a lot of awesome AOE weapons that do not deal self-damage and still pretty op

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Why nerf the Tonkor and the Simulor ? Asking a real question here, in what those weapons disturbe you, felow haters ? Because if someone use them in your squad you can't be first DPS ? I'm sorry but I see no other reason..

They are "op" as you said, fine, sowat ? Is it a PvP game ? Nope, 99% PvE, so the balance isn't an acceptable argument.

Perhaps is it because you don't like to play with someone that has no time to waste in missions ? Then let me introduce you the wonderful buttont "solo" and his comrade the button "friends only", both of them will keep you away of people that like to play fast and good.

Or maybe you're just a 12yo thinking the internet belong to him, and complaining every single time someone doesn't act the way he wanted them to. Yup, probably that.

Its not like I really care about it, I'll keep playing tonkor, and my friend will keep playing simulor with Mirage, it is just another reason for us to not give a single more penny to DE.

Be happy haters, you won this round, enjoy your 1h+ sorties with braton and skana for a beautiful lens

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a few points to make, mostly for the nerved weapons (tonkor, synoid, telos boltace):

- it is a space game (it does not need to be realistic)

- it is pve mostly (the majority of players do not care if something is powerfull)

- there are a lot of issues in the game (scaling, endgame, etc.)

to go over the weapons for me personaly:

tonkor:

picked it up a while ago. i played it in sorties in the past. after the aoe crit headshot damage fix it was/is basiclly useless in higher level content. it is still strong, but there are definitly better options. my main use is for farming at the moment. it has aoe clear. you can pop the grenades down and clear stuff in low to mid level stuff. i only use it at hierachon to farm relics. it is definilty a good weapon for that, but other then this not used. so for me the decision to use a tonkor is mostly "utility", meaning i can not blow myself up. since if i'm dead i can not guard extractors. the other thing is it has aoe. we are in a horde game, so you need aoe.

so i personaly rarely see people use the tonkor anymore in sorties or other missions. some on relic farm, but that is rare too. so not sure if this nerv is coming from the use per player side.

for the balance things. the selfdamage alone will render this weapon a no go to many. it is the main thing for me personaly that makes it currently a standout weapon. even if the damage would not be as good. have a aoe clear with your primary weapon that can not kill yourself. yes please. so changing that will kill the weapon for me.

the other things are makeing it more complicated to use and remove some fun shooting around stuff mechanic, there are currently possible with the bounce. i feel you take out the fun mechanic and the press down mouse and release. a feature that some other weapons have already is okay. but poersonaly i do not like it as much. the simply mechanic of the tonkor is a big selling point of the weapon. yoou press fire and fire. there is no alt fire to detonate, no selfdamage to check where you shoot. it is simple and effective. the whole aim/fire/bounce chanmges will remove that and the more advanced fun stuff you could do with it.

so after basicly removing hughe factor why people used this weapon cutting the crit to 25 from 35%? is the damage of the weapon maybe a bit to much - yes. but the problem is it falls off later on and if you go late game you will use other weapons most of the time. to that comes the tonkor is a crit weapon. not everone has argon scope or/and a riven to make 25% reliable work on weapons. so if there above changes did not turn players away this definiltyy did.

what i do not get, why would one pick this up after the changes. the damage will be only okay. you will definitly still kill yourself all the time. the firering mechanic will be complicated. all this things are things that other launchers do too. so if i would be okay witht hat then the tonkor would be a weapon for me,but i could on the same not just choose another.

the main thing i do not get, this weapon has been around a long time. as i understand it has been strong all the time (since i got it it certainly was strong). why was this not adressed earlier? things stay in the game forever broken. people accept it as part of the core mechanic. adjusting the crit of the tonkor is an easy number fix. this could have been done way earlier. assuming the other changes take a bit more time here. but doing simple fixes could have been done before, so why not do this so people do not invest so much into them.

simulor/synoid simluor

only used really the synoid variant. the normal was basiclly mastery fodders for me. the use for this was mostly to try it out. since i saw a lot of players using these. it was/is fun to use. it has okay damage and some cc in it. the main selling point for me is that your damage/cc stays a bit. but it is not really a super high used weapon in my arsenal. more a symbol to have and bring out from time to time. i do super rarely bring this to sorties. after a time i find the sound and lightning simply to annoying. thats the main reason this is not a staple weapon fore me.

so the changes will basilly bring this to an alt fire status weapon. so i dont see the firerate to be high enough for this to become a status weapon in the first place. the appeal of the weapon comes from the cc( which will be signicantly reduced in range) and some decent damage ( which is basilly gone). so the stratus could be fine, but yoou need to alt fire. making this a very slow firing weapon. the other thing is that i personaly like a simply weapon, shot and done. including alt fire from time to time in rare occassion is okay. but having it a requirement to do damage i feel kills the weapon. i thought it is called altfire because of Alternative fire? with how the stats look for the synoid this is not alernative, this is main fire = no damage/cc, alterfire = what you have to do to get anything out of the weapon. i feel this is the wrong way to go about things. please keep altfire as an alternative to your already good main firering option or as some cc/utility. not as a must to make the weapon even work. warframe is fast paced so having to fire then wait, then klick kills the flow of the game and the weapon.

telos boltace

when this first came out i did not pick it up. the optics of the slash aoe i found super annoying. after a time i came around to get it and it was fun to use. the damage was/is fine. but the mechanic killed it for me. sliding and meleeing the entire mission is fun... the first 5minutes. it then becomes super tirering and very fast just a pain to use on your hands. so i found this a overcimplicated mechanic, fun but a bit meh. in the long term use. i think i brought this once to a sortie to test it. it did well, but for the not enjoyable playstyle after a while it mostly sits in my arsenal and collects dust. i do not enjoy the tonfas weapon type as much. maybe that is just that, but not an appealing weapon for me. the most irritating thing i feel is the optics of the slash aoe. since it can get super annoying if people just slide in your field of view all the time. i feel jusst fixing that would help the weapon a lot, but okay...

the changes will probably kill this. i used this because it was fun to play around with. the damage is/was good too, so not only gimicky, but useable on higher levels due to the slash. changing that to a vortex thing makes this a  no go for higher content. so it will end up a gimick weapon, with the usual tonfa problems (clunky stance, weapon switching, attacking). so to effectivly use this you would have to do a normal melee build. in that case you could use any other weapon. the other thing is here if i can vortex enemys i can simply use another melee and just kill them. dead enemies are cc'ed enemies.

as for syndicate melee weapons most of them are not very good in the first place and have very niche uses. so removing one (or the only if you ask some) useable weapon  from this class makes syndicate melee not something you want to invest in. so in regards to that problem i feel you are doing them no favor in terms of giving players a reason to pick these up.

overall

in general i'm happy that something is moving in terms of balacing. i'm very dissapointed in the tonkor changes, since that together with the simluor remoces useable aoe primarly aoe clear weapons. assuming you do not wanne go up in flames. it is a sci fi space game. not all things need to realistic, like in game x, when you blow stuff up you need to get hit. space, sci fi fanatsy. things can get crazy, people can come out unharmed. it is a video game. people like this kinda stuff, thats why they play your game. not because i can blow myself up like in every other video game outthere.(insert selfdamage rant here^^) but on the serious note people like warframe because it is unique and because things are overpowered and you can become a god. it is an escape. so please please keep that in mind when doing all the balancing and you try to level the plain field. sometimes mountains are good ;)

i'm sad that this changes do not adress the elphant in the room. people want/need/use strong weapons because of the enemy scaling, how damage works. how enemy ai works. how warframe power work in higher levels. scaling in the late game is/was a problem. the changes are good, but they are again only bandages. why a bandage again?

whats up with the aoe primary weapon purge? yes there are still some aoe clear primarys out there, but you seem to try to get rid of them. maybe there is an overall plan here to move away from the horde game. but currently the game is a horde game. people play the game after these changes would go live and will search, use and need aoe weapons against the enemys. so if you make these gradual changes please keep this in mind. so that th game will still be playable even after bigger weapon balance changes.

the one forma+booster... not sure what to say here. but people have put way more into these weapons. the changes would prevent them from putting anything into these weapons in the first place. giving one forma and a booster seems really like a slap in the face. you loved the weapon we just nerved into the ground. well here you go have a forma and a booster and go pick a new one, but we will come and balance it again. so please give all back or just say you get nothing. because the changes will kill the weapons, especially for players that used them a lot. people know there need to be balance changes that part of the game, but please not with such a disrespectful gesture. since i feel ginving one fomra to let us believe just the reload was adjusted by 0.1 secounds and we can switch out a mod to make the weapon what it was is not the case.

in the end i would love to see a more buff/balance adjust the weaker stuff. there is always the mentality that if something is strong it needs to be nerved, there is no otherway around it. but in fact there is, just look at the reasons why people use the currently strong things and get working on the weak ones. buff them, adjust them. it is a pve game, there a lots of things strong in warframe.

the for reading and welcome to the shotgun meta^^

fight on tenno =)

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6 minutes ago, Pixoniatus said:

Why nerf the Tonkor and the Simulor ? Asking a real question here, in what those weapons disturbe you, felow haters ? Because if someone use them in your squad you can't be first DPS ? I'm sorry but I see no other reason..

They are "op" as you said, fine, sowat ? Is it a PvP game ? Nope, 99% PvE, so the balance isn't an acceptable argument.

Perhaps is it because you don't like to play with someone that has no time to waste in missions ? Then let me introduce you the wonderful buttont "solo" and his comrade the button "friends only", both of them will keep you away of people that like to play fast and good.

Or maybe you're just a 12yo thinking the internet belong to him, and complaining every single time someone doesn't act the way he wanted them to. Yup, probably that.

Can't say better!

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How about making Twin Gremlins great again?

It is an interesting weapon that requires some farming and I feel that it should be buffed to make all that effort worth it.
Plus, it would give players some incentives in using projectile weapons, rewarding their accurate shots and more enjoyment pinning enemies.
Make it as awesome as this:

 

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42 minutes ago, Pixoniatus said:

Why nerf the Tonkor and the Simulor ? Asking a real question here, in what those weapons disturbe you, felow haters ? Because if someone use them in your squad you can't be first DPS ? I'm sorry but I see no other reason..

They are "op" as you said, fine, sowat ? Is it a PvP game ? Nope, 99% PvE, so the balance isn't an acceptable argument.

Perhaps is it because you don't like to play with someone that has no time to waste in missions ? Then let me introduce you the wonderful buttont "solo" and his comrade the button "friends only", both of them will keep you away of people that like to play fast and good.

Or maybe you're just a 12yo thinking the internet belong to him, and complaining every single time someone doesn't act the way he wanted them to. Yup, probably that.

Its not like I really care about it, I'll keep playing tonkor, and my friend will keep playing simulor with Mirage, it is just another reason for us to not give a single more penny to DE.

Be happy haters, you won this round, enjoy your 1h+ sorties with braton and skana for a beautiful lens

Agreed. If other people killing stuff is a problem, play solo/invite only/friends only, not a public game.

Personally I don't really care that they are getting nerfed nor did I care if someone used one in a public game, Other than Simulor, I don't use the weapons much at all, and even that was mainly for the energy restore proc.

As the changes are currently for Simulor, it doesn't change much. Mirages can still clear whole maps with it. Now they have use alt fire every 1-2 seconds instead of just left clicking. And there are other aoe weapons too that Mirages can use to achieve the same results, so it's not like this will change much. Nerf Mirage instead since that's about the only reason I see people cry about the Simulor.

edit: I will still likely use my Simulor if the current changes are what goes live. It will be basically penta without self damage and slightly shorter range.

Edited by Vilmu
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1 hour ago, SilverWF said:

So why u can't live if someone uses Symulor or Tonkor? Huh?

 

Dude, not everybody needs you spamming that one lil' metagun to stay alive.  You can keep teams on their feet and in the fight at LEAST as well with a bit of care and a half-decent healer (alright, needs to be a fairly good Oberon).  Heck, use a 'Frame with good CC and lock the map down.

If your team can't stay in a group, can't focus on the objectives, AND can't keep themselves alive throught their own stupidity, then it's neither your fault nor responsibility.  You can't blaim other people's skill on the gun you brought anymore than you can say they're dying JUST because you don't have it.

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Oh cool, ONE FORMA. wanna know how many it was combined ? in all of these weopons combined i had 18 forma. Good thing i get FOUR back. also thanks for removing simulor& synoid simulor from the game (note: this nerf = removal). seriously ? a 50% damage nerf would be harsh already, nono let's make it a 92% damage nerf, you now shoot cotton balls. did i mention we were planning on making enemies harder ?

sincerely DE, revisit your game making strategies over revisiting your money making strategies.

Many loves, a now ex-tenno

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1 minute ago, Cytobel said:

Dude, not everybody needs you spamming that one lil' metagun to stay alive.  You can keep teams on their feet and in the fight at LEAST as well with a bit of care and a half-decent healer (alright, needs to be a fairly good Oberon).  Heck, use a 'Frame with good CC and lock the map down.

If your team can't stay in a group, can't focus on the objectives, AND can't keep themselves alive throught their own stupidity, then it's neither your fault nor responsibility.  You can't blaim other people's skill on the gun you brought anymore than you can say they're dying JUST because you don't have it.

That's what I said before: until this changes I have my fun, I can carry the mission even with pointless randoms. After that nerf - I wouldn't. At the prev page I brought an example of high lvl monsters against Miter - please, go and watch it. Then come back and give me your suggestions.

And yes, Oberon is pointless crap, Trinity is far better in terms of healing the team.

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Self damage needs to be removed or changed. If you refuse to remove self damage, at least make the Tonkor's firing more controllable like it is with the Zarr and the Penta. The Penta let's you control the when, the Zarr let's you switch to something less suicidal. These proposed changes will just make the Tonkor a liability. This is a game, surfaces do not have 100% real world physics predictability, the Tonkor grenades can and will bounce off surfaces in ways that make no sense whatsoever. Enemies can be dealt with, as annoying as they may be, but allies getting in the way, certain warframe abilities, and random nonsensical bounces due to terrain mapping weirdness shouldn't result in untimely deaths. Self damage is a punishment not a risk. It is a punishment for bad aim and random shenanigans outside the player's control. It needs to be fixed in a way that doesn't sacrifice fun or screw over players who don't have perfect aim.

PS: The rocket jumping mechanic is what makes the Tonkor a unique weapon. I don't care if it isn't 'functional' it's fun. Also, I feel like the current self damage system turns the player into a glorified grenade turret.

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1 hour ago, KyoBladezen said:

The point is to have fun. Having a setup that is over-optimized and perfect at clearing rooms takes all the fun away from your teammates, which is fine if you're playing with friends, but terrible for a game designed for randomized squads. 

There doesnt have to be a point to it so long as it is fun. 

Yeah people like you are the reason I go afk for 5 mins every 10 mins to watch youtube, so that they can have their fun while I do 50% of the damage.

See how I'm so considerate of noobs?

 

 

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1 minute ago, SilverWF said:

That's what I said before: until this changes I have my fun, I can carry the mission even with pointless randoms. After that nerf - I wouldn't. At the prev page I brought an example of high lvl monsters against Miter - please, go and watch it. Then come back and give me your suggestions.

And yes, Oberon is pointless crap, Trinity is far better in terms of healing the team.

I've seen good Oberons.  Stuff the stupid.  They're rarer than unicorns, but they are real.  Sort of like really good Volts, in Sorties great Oberons trivialize a surprising array of threats.

I'm not interested in Miter or Panthera ANYTHING.  I'm not even sure if there's a buff strong enough for them, but I'm gonna wait and see.  DE's shocked me before.

I'm happy to see that my Buzlok and Paracyst are getting love, not the least because of how much I enjoy them (no accounting for taste).

For the record, I'm COMPLETELY against self damage in this game.  As to the rest of it, I think you can do better for a team than just a Synoid Simulor, and I'm pretty sure the T-bolts are dead and GONE.  I'll wait and see (because I don't have much other choice, do I?).

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9 hours ago, taiiat said:

no fixes for the mechanical problems that make Miter and Paracyst useless?
Charged Miter Blades are like 1/20th the size as uncharged, and Paracysts' aiming convergence makes shots go all over the place.
the former should just be fixed, the latter can be addressed by having the Projectile streams aim in a 'triangle' pattern, rather than completely converging on the aim point. i.e. shooting a triangle pattern that will adjust its size based on the distance of the target point, rather than having the Projectile streams intersect at the aiming point.

Tonkor Grenades being less bouncy? but how will i make sick trickshots then? that's my favorite part about the Weapon, bouncing Grenades off of half a dozen walls and Headshotting Enemies. :/
seriously, this is the best mechanical feature of the Weapon, that the Grenades are so awesome for Trickshots. please don't ruin that?

Ogris AoE should be even bigger.

no numbers at all about a Hind Semi-Auto Mode? also not really sure why a Burst Weapon would benefit from this.

if things like Panthera Alt-Fire are still going to use the Continuous Weapon Damage Model, at least increase the Status to 50 or 60%. so that it'll always be capping out the status.

- - - - - 

Harkpak is already tied as the king of Burst Weapons, with Sybaris Series. it doesn't really need the Crit Chance boost.
but okay.

increasing Crit Stats of Buzlok AND having Beacons give a Crit Bonus is overkill. i approve of the Beacon bonus, just don't stack it with increased Crit Stats by default as well.
or atleast only increase Crit Damage, and leave the Crit Chance increase to the Beacon?
additionally the Damage increase is a bit steep, better off at 50.

it sounds like you've probably made Attica a direct upgrade over Zhuge now. reversing the problem doesn't solve it.
one of these is a medium/heavy Crossbow, the other a light Crossbow. pick which one it is, and give Damage/Crit Stats to reflect that, as well as a Magazine Size to reflect that.
so one that puts down a lot of covering fire, another that hits hard.

 

- - - - - 

everything else looks good.
Simulor Series, unbeknownst to most of the Community, does have a lot of great unique features, and these adjustments will actually encourage Players to use those strong features, rather than ignoring them for simply mashing the fire button.

Boltace stuff sounds quite interesting.

The buzlok getting base crit is so that you don't have to tag an enemy to deal damage. The base crit stats are enough that modding for crit will give the best damage, and then when you find a high value target you tag them and put your deeps into overdrive.

That said, I think a little more QoL would be nice. The tag is still a projectile, and doesn't have fixed accuracy. This punishes you for using heavy caliber, which should be a perfect mod for buzlok; the 'dream' is to build pure damage with no regard for accuracy, then use the tag to get your accuracy.

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As I have several formas in those weapons that will reach the Rubico in the never-to-be-used section, you should redeem ALL that was put in these (Catalysts, Formas, you can remove them from the said-weapons, we will put them back in if we want).

Oh, and this nerf on the top-tier weapon will only give one thing : Naramon or GTFO. Such an interesting "choice"

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4 hours ago, StinkyPygmy said:

Not how balance works. You cannot buff everything exponentially. Otherwise you end up with a constant and completely pointless eternally increasing cycle of doing nothing but increasing the numbers and scale used, for literally no reason. Thus, you never actually achieve anything. Things would remain just as unbalanced, but with larger numbers.

They end up with reverse cycle of ever going nerfs which devaluate completely weapons and our efforts pun in those weapons. To me increasing cycle would be even if as useless but at least not as annoying. Ideal balance would be if they now do much more buffs because of dozens of nerfs they did already last year. Buff to many weapons to a good level instead of killing a few good weapons people did put effort in would be wise decision instead of making people feel like they got robbed.

Don't you think people would like to feel they progress bit further instead of feeling they are regressing?

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The main problem for me is the lack of understanding by both the developers and the pro nerf guys that every time there are weapons or frames that gets purely nerfed without a real rebalance or giving them a proper mechanics rework, have been built and leveled for a certain use by the players through effort put in the game and the nerf is seen end felt like a punishment for playing the game, even if in some cases a nerf or a rework could be objectively necessary. This discourages people in playing the game and put effort in it, or choosing to develop in a specific way a weapon or a frame that has a peculiar mechanic for the fear of seing their efforts erased and the consolation prize of a forma and 3 days affinity buff for something that got deprived of a purpouse to be used it's not only pointless but feels disrespectfull towards a large part of the game comunity.

 

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Just an idea but on the Telos Boltace, maybe instead of alternating effects the pull could be a walk speed attack and the push could be a sprint speed attack. Just a bit more control on how it works.

Edited by LazyRivers
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