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Coming Soon: Weapon Balance Pass.


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When i just found out about this i was very upset. And tbh i still am a little. But i will try to keep it nice and constructive. Most that i write here will be my personal experience and opinion and maybe some facts.

Here is what i like to run with atm and what is fun for me.

Ember prime (when im tired or lazy) or Inaros (when i need to relieve some adhd)

Synoid simulor on ember and only the tellos boltace on inaros

Some times when im asked i will play nova or some other support frame.

Sinds this is about weapon nerfs il try and keep the frames out of it, but imo you need to know to put the other stuff into context.

This game is about farming grinding and then some more farming. Endo, mods, kuva, poly, circuits etc etc. And i like that aspect of the game, tbh i love it. Some times i like to pay pubs or with friends, but most times i go solo into survival and dont come out until i see lvl 200 or higher. Killing thousands of grineer in an hour or 2 gives me joy. I get a big fat smile on my face when i run head on into an mob of infested with 1 or 2 Juggernauts, to emerge from the fight in victory.

The reason why i can do this solo is not because its hard, no tbh its still easy. The real reason i can do this is because i have spend hours and hours of farming parts, resources and affinity. Not to mention the plat i spend to get certain mods and/or frames. Given enough time every player who wants to can do this. And now all that was for nothing, In a few days i can put these weapons away to probably never use them again. 

I feel real bad for the players that have spend huge amounts of plat on Riven mods for the weapons that are going to be nerfed. Imagine this:

A new player start playing the game and one day he's in a mission with another player who's destroying the mobs and carries the team to the finish. He starts talking with him and gets the info he needs. He does his homework and get busy. He grinds to mr8 builds his weapon and spends more time, money and effort in making powerful. Few weeks or months later he comes at the point where he is destroying the mobs and carries the team. Feels good bro! all time, effort and money well spent. He was doubting to buy that Riven for 1500 plat but in the end it payed off. 1 week/day/month later he gets word that his fav weapon gets the axe. Feels bad bro! All he gets in return is a forma.

The way i see it the problem is not the weapon, not the mods and not the players. This guy got powerful stuff and wants to use it, the beginner does not have it and is pissed off cause he cant get kills. Perfectly understandable from both standpoints. There are way better solutions to this problem that will never end then nerfing and buffing weapons or frames. Here is my solution.

Add 1 or 2 High lvl ( start @ lvl 100?)missions to every planet and divide all mission types/factions between them. Lets call these mission Masters missions (or some other prestige name). Now remove the MR from those weapons and give them the "master" status and only allow the use of them in these Master missions. This way us fanatics (i dont know a better word lol)  can keep our weapons and the beginners get their kills and have a goal to work towards. This does not mean you cant go to Lith earth with your over power weapon, you can still do that, but only solo or as a premade group. But that also go's the other way around, you cant bring a non master weapon into a master mission (even though they might be good).

 This idea also creates the "end game" allot of us so desperately want. I am no programer but i cant imagine this be hard to implement because the mr is just a number and the Tile sets already exist. To start or test this you could even use just the Kuva fortress for this. Its a freaking beautiful tile set.

Please forgive my bad english as my native language is not english and i haven't slept in 24 hours or so.

TL:DR

Put OP weapons in OP missions, no more nerfs needed and it sucks to pay x amount of plat for a Riven that is now useless.

 

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Not gonna lie, the Tonkor was my favorite weapon. I moved on once I noticed I relied on it and nothing else. I had my fun with it. Rest in the many pieces you left in your wake...

This might sound odd but I am actually quite hyped for the panthera buff. As a concept it was amazing but it had trouble taking down grineer with alloy armor that were under level 10, it having a significant buff is very welcome.

Not sure how I feel about the simulor rebalance. I guess having the detonation do more than the merging makes sense but I feel the range may be a bit low.

Can we get a utility weapon that can do the AoE of the Telos Boltace but with just enough damage to break crates? Maybe with an altfire that spits the tonkor's current bouncy grenade but without the damage as well? Mostly because the utility of the telos boltace made them outstanding for me and the Tonkor gimmick was quite fun because it coule be used to extend jumps a little bit when done right.

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16 hours ago, AM-Bunny said:

Seriously. I've been in love with Attica since it released, just based on the design, and it's continued to get buffed into a formidable weapon.

I was overjoyed when its Rivens got buffed, but I never expected this. I'm just sad now since I don't have a crit-based Riven.

It is definitely a good change, now it acts as a more damage oriented counterpart to the status-based Zhuge which is good.

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So let me get this straight, when people were asking for a reduced research costs for the Hema, after a week of silence, you said you won't do it because it would be unfair to players who put in the work. But now you're punishing players who spent in some cases months and multiple Formas on their Tonkor/Simulor/Boltace builds, to make them viable end game weapons? Alright, gotcha.

And as a Boltace main, I wonder how this new mechanic is even going to work, because the nature of slide attacks is that you're sliding, so the second attack is usually a good deal away from where the first attack was. So does the vortex stick to the player?
I'm just asking this, because you seem to have a habit of implementing stuff that no one ever really thought through (mission failure imminent, cough cough)

If I sound salty, it's because I am, but ultimately I don't care too much. There will be other OP builds that players like me will get used to, and other players will complain about until you nerf them as well and then the cycle will repeat, as it has for the last four years.

I just wish you would address the real issue why people are using these builds - high level enemy scaling and the mind numbingly tedious grind - instead of those band-aid solutions you come up with every time.

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20 minutes ago, Insane-Mana said:

When i just found out about this i was very upset. And tbh i still am a little. But i will try to keep it nice and constructive. Most that i write here will be my personal experience and opinion and maybe some facts.

Here is what i like to run with atm and what is fun for me.

Ember prime (when im tired or lazy) or Inaros (when i need to relieve some adhd)

Synoid simulor on ember and only the tellos boltace on inaros

Some times when im asked i will play nova or some other support frame.

Sinds this is about weapon nerfs il try and keep the frames out of it, but imo you need to know to put the other stuff into context.

This game is about farming grinding and then some more farming. Endo, mods, kuva, poly, circuits etc etc. And i like that aspect of the game, tbh i love it. Some times i like to pay pubs or with friends, but most times i go solo into survival and dont come out until i see lvl 200 or higher. Killing thousands of grineer in an hour or 2 gives me joy. I get a big fat smile on my face when i run head on into an mob of infested with 1 or 2 Juggernauts, to emerge from the fight in victory.

The reason why i can do this solo is not because its hard, no tbh its still easy. The real reason i can do this is because i have spend hours and hours of farming parts, resources and affinity. Not to mention the plat i spend to get certain mods and/or frames. Given enough time every player who wants to can do this. And now all that was for nothing, In a few days i can put these weapons away to probably never use them again. 

I feel real bad for the players that have spend huge amounts of plat on Riven mods for the weapons that are going to be nerfed. Imagine this:

A new player start playing the game and one day he's in a mission with another player who's destroying the mobs and carries the team to the finish. He starts talking with him and gets the info he needs. He does his homework and get busy. He grinds to mr8 builds his weapon and spends more time, money and effort in making powerful. Few weeks or months later he comes at the point where he is destroying the mobs and carries the team. Feels good bro! all time, effort and money well spent. He was doubting to buy that Riven for 1500 plat but in the end it payed off. 1 week/day/month later he gets word that his fav weapon gets the axe. Feels bad bro! All he gets in return is a forma.

The way i see it the problem is not the weapon, not the mods and not the players. This guy got powerful stuff and wants to use it, the beginner does not have it and is pissed off cause he cant get kills. Perfectly understandable from both standpoints. There are way better solutions to this problem that will never end then nerfing and buffing weapons or frames. Here is my solution.

You are right in the 1st part and bit wrong in second.

1st, constructivism is NOT about agree with all the changes. But you does.

2nd, if noob want kills - let's he would go and play solo - all kills will be his. Not, that noob want someone would CARRY him to the end but, at the same time, he didn't want to feel himself as pointless and useless wagon. Noob would never understand, that not weapon by itself does this, but the time, spent on bringing this weapon to that lvl.

 

There is alive humans playing this game. All normal humans would always seek the best way to do stuff.

Example: Weapon A is stronger than weapon B and another 300 weapons. Most players using it. Let's nerf weapon A - so all players would spread on the all 300 weapons? Not - they all would use weapon B. Let's nerf weapon B? Players would find and use weapon C then. And all the bad players will still be unhappy, coz that pesky PROs are stealing "their" frags anyway.

Let's nerf everything around? Let force all players to feel strong regression where they barely can kill one 100lvl monster with "extremely well designed" weapons? So players would leave this stupid game and noobs will still be unhappy, coz they can't do anything by themselves and there is no PROs to carry them anymore.

 

And still there is no 1hr survival video in the Void with Miter? Why? This is such wonderful weapon, wow!

Edited by SilverWF
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Now since you buffed the paracyst it comes to my mind that you should make the HEMA automatic, we already got that paracyst that does fire more or less the same way...( burst fire, projectile based, flight speed ewwww )

Now my dream would be an automatic hitscan hema but whatever.....

I know you can do it IF and WHEN you wanna do something

:awkward::crylaugh:

 

 

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Simulor had to be nerfed to the oblivion, but one step at a time I guess.

I'm very happy with the Tonkor nerf as well. 

 

I guess I'll unshelf my Buzzlok and Attica after so many years, as well as my ogris and glaxion.

 

More of these weapon buff/nerf/reworks please. 

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So, over-all, the changes here range from "ooh, I like that" to "I don't use that weapon.  Maybe I should take another look."  There are a couple relatively minor thoughts that I feel the need to bring up.

Harpak & Paracyst

Have you considered adding the ability to use the harpoon secondary fire to pull yourself around the map (akin to Valkyr's Rip Line)?  Not exactly a must have, but it seems like a little bit of utility that might be worthwhile (and with an existing ability to use as a model, hopefully not too much of a pain to add?).

Ogris

Any chance of getting the Ogris to not hit friendlies?  One of the biggest problems that the Ogris runs into is the risk of an ally - another player, kubrow, sentinel, specter, or operative - running into your line of fire and causing the rocket to detonate prematurely.  While this doesn't damage the ally (barring Radiation procs), it greatly increases the risk of being caught in one's own explosion - especially given the amount of running, sliding, jumping and rolling in odd directions that goes into avoiding incoming fire) even when aiming at enemies that are a safe distance away.

Tonkor

These changes seem reasonable, but interact very badly with a bug of the Tonkor's.  Currently (I can't give a time-frame on when this first cropped up), Tonkor's grenades are extremely prone to detonating as soon as they clear the barrel of the gun.  With the current mechanics, that means wasted time and ammo, and a slight risk of being launched somewhere you don't want to be, but with self-damage being brought up to match the other launchers, this the result is almost guaranteed to be death for most frames.  I wouldn't expect to see too many people keep using this weapon when it's more likely to kill you through bugs than whatever you were aiming at.

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10 minutes ago, plastictrash said:

players who spent in some cases months and multiple Formas on their Tonkor/Simulor/Boltace builds

Even a full forma tonkor will take a few days, maybe a week to complete. Not months. And they already said they'd give you some forma back, which should give you a head start on whatever google slaps you with as the new OP META GOD BUILD 

:) good luck

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16 hours ago, Rubicon2.0-EGT- said:

Dear Rebecca,

 Would you look/check the damage  system/mechanic of Synapse ? I just dont understand why i am doing few shots with 10-15k red critical damage and most of the  shots are 500-1000 red critical damage. So this mean Synapse has incredible higher chance to do low-damage ?

 

Synapse build

  Hide contents

2n9J1D6.jpg

 

The 10-15k damage ticks are your 14% double-red crits.

-----

Please note that this isn't a complaint, just a reality check / clarification of intentions:

A forma for every nerfed weapon is a nice gesture, broadly speaking.
"You put time and resources into these weapons we've weakened, so here - a bit of a refund."
Which, again, is a nice gesture. It's just that it's counter-realistically weak.

 

kSDze9d.jpg

Very few weapons (basically only melee, in the days before Primed mods) can get away with 1-or-less forma to max them out.

As such, I assume that it's meant more as a 'We've changed how these weapons work, and we realise this might force you to change your builds somewhat, so here - a forma and booster to make it less painful'?

Either way, thank you for the gesture.

Edited by Chroia
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Just now, Sigmas71 said:

Even a full forma tonkor will take a few days, maybe a week to complete. Not months. And they already said they'd give you some forma back, which should give you a head start on whatever google slaps you with as the new OP META GOD BUILD 

:) good luck

I don't really care about the Forma, I do a lot of endless Void Fissures, and I'm constantly building Formas in the foundry, so I have at least 5-10 at any given time.

When I say months, I don't mean months to level up a weapon, I mean tweaking builds to get the maximum amount of damage and usability out of a weapon.

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3 minutes ago, Sigmas71 said:

Even a full forma tonkor will take a few days, maybe a week to complete. Not months. And they already said they'd give you some forma back, which should give you a head start on whatever google slaps you with as the new OP META GOD BUILD 

:) good luck

Is there some source of the free formas, huh? They said they would give back ONE forma and nothing else - no catalysts or lenses.

And if someone were so unhappy to buy some reaven mods for 1k+ pls - let he would go and F himself now.

This is headstart to buy more stuff in the shop only - their greed and nothing else.

Edited by SilverWF
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55 minutes ago, 00zau said:

The buzlok getting base crit is so that you don't have to tag an enemy to deal damage. The base crit stats are enough that modding for crit will give the best damage, and then when you find a high value target you tag them and put your deeps into overdrive.

That said, I think a little more QoL would be nice. The tag is still a projectile, and doesn't have fixed accuracy. This punishes you for using heavy caliber, which should be a perfect mod for buzlok; the 'dream' is to build pure damage with no regard for accuracy, then use the tag to get your accuracy.

I think both you and Taiiat make interesting points.

The Paracyst isn't now nor after the buff will it be useless.  It's in need of a good Multishot riven right now, and after the buff my riven will be even more glorious (if they don't preemptively nerf the S#&$ out of it BEFORE the weapon even sees use).

After the buff you'll be able to hit 100% status chance.  Add in Point Strike and (considering the ~5 shots per burst after Split Chamber) you will be inflicting CRITICAL STATUS about once per burst.  That's solid.  As for the aiming woes, use it like a shotgun.  I treat it that way and I take it through Sorties and Floods fairly easily.

As to the Buzlok projectile becoming LESS accurate with Heavy Caliber, I've not really noticed this much.  I run a 6-rank HC due to space issues and I don't try for terribly long shots, tbh.  Throw up an Electric Shield, aim for a moment, slap a NARC pod on something's faceport, aim up and HOLD TRIGGER!!!

These are two of my personal favorite piece-of-crap guns in game, so I DID riven up on them.  Again, I'm sincerely hoping DE doesn't destroy those rivens, since rivens NEVER seem to gain strength once they've lost it.  With those rivens at current strength, I can use these guns unironically anywhere on the starchart, and even in Sorties and Floods (only sometimes for the Buzlok)

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1 hour ago, VPX88 said:

The main problem for me is the lack of understanding by both the developers and the pro nerf guys that every time there are weapons or frames that gets purely nerfed without a real rebalance or giving them a proper mechanics rework, have been built and leveled for a certain use by the players through effort put in the game and the nerf is seen end felt like a punishment for playing the game, even if in some cases a nerf or a rework could be objectively necessary. This discourages people in playing the game and put effort in it, or choosing to develop in a specific way a weapon or a frame that has a peculiar mechanic for the fear of seing their efforts erased and the consolation prize of a forma and 3 days affinity buff for something that got deprived of a purpouse to be used it's not only pointless but feels disrespectfull towards a large part of the game comunity.

 

THANK YOU.

This is what I've been saying (along with bellyaching about self damage in general rather than for the Tonkor in particular).

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i couldnt care less about the nerfs WHEN i get all the forma and catalysts back i put into the nerfed weapons!

proof that i only care about the formas/catalysts i invested!

20170323130505_1poz99.jpg

20170323130511_1cdxb5.jpg

20170323130525_1yza7i.jpg

 

Edited by RAZORLIGHT
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22 minutes ago, plastictrash said:

So let me get this straight, when people were asking for a reduced research costs for the Hema, after a week of silence, you said you won't do it because it would be unfair to players who put in the work. But now you're punishing players who spent in some cases months and multiple Formas on their Tonkor/Simulor/Boltace builds, to make them viable end game weapons? Alright, gotcha.

And as a Boltace main, I wonder how this new mechanic is even going to work, because the nature of slide attacks is that you're sliding, so the second attack is usually a good deal away from where the first attack was. So does the vortex stick to the player?
I'm just asking this, because you seem to have a habit of implementing stuff that no one ever really thought through (mission failure imminent, cough cough)

If I sound salty, it's because I am, but ultimately I don't care too much. There will be other OP builds that players like me will get used to, and other players will complain about until you nerf them as well and then the cycle will repeat, as it has for the last four years.

I just wish you would address the real issue why people are using these builds - high level enemy scaling and the mind numbingly tedious grind - instead of those band-aid solutions you come up with every time.

I don't know how the new Telos Boltace mechanic would work out, but I not sure if I would like it to be another melee Simulor weapon.

So many band-aids that I feel make things worse. Riven mods, dispositions, clan participation and event, event missions that drops Mutagen Samples. Band-aids on top of band-aids.
DE probably mostly prioritise when players start to exploit them a lot. Telos Boltace have been around for quite some time, yet this changes popped up when some players complain about players spamming using macros.
Not to mention that the Vauban's Bastille bug that players had posted about long time ago, yet it was fixed so rapidly during The Pacifism Defect event when player exploited it.

Also, I would like to ask, why the Hema issue is not properly resolved after so long?

22 minutes ago, plastictrash said:

I'm just asking this, because you seem to have a habit of implementing stuff that no one ever really thought through (mission failure imminent, cough cough)

DE doesn't seem to playtest their game sufficiently.
Also, the AFK timer. It is not enough for me to go pee and wash my hands...

DE, please think through more thoroughly. Aim to fix the root of the problems instead of the symptoms.
Capped the number for the Shadow of the Dead for performance reasons, and yet added weather effects and god-rays without options to turn it off?
Forgot to consider Syndicate requirements when vaulting primes.
And not sure why the Codex keeps breaking or showing leaks...
And spoil the lore for players yet to complete Second Dream with loading screen like this:

Spoiler

09f6L62.png

It just shows that not enough thoughts are being invested.

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I'm in love with the skin of the Opticor, but the weapon is actually too bad to be usefull. Hoped it is in the list...

We can't control the charged shoot like on bows, reduce chargetime (with 3 mods + a riven) is a big waste of damage (and finally it's more interesting to use another weapon). Another problem with the Opticor is it bugs when shot thrue Volt shield.

Hope one day this weapon can control the charged shoot or charge faster, and maybe will get an aoe mod like Jatt kittag or Sobek ;)

 

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19 hours ago, SPARTANXG117 said:

Those Tonkor changes... as much as I like how the grenades will be exploding faster and we now see the trajectory path, full self-damage... well, it was nice to NOT have it while it lasted...

 

EDIT: Actually, do you mind posting a pie chart of weapons usage for us? Because that would be very helpful for seeing the reasoning behind nerfing some good and/or cheesy weapons...

You can find certain information - *cough* exact Riven disposition values *cough* - somewhere on the net which is inversely proportional related to weapon usage, so you can see Simulor and Soma at the top and Tonkor soon after.


Tonkor:

Spoiler

Now, regarding its changes: I never understood all the subjective hate (and the need to express it in an unconstructive one-liner as if one's life depended on it :D), probably partly because I frequently used it myself in my early days, but mainly because its aoe is simply way too small to actively restrict other players. It doesn't decimate everything on the whole screen like certain Frames (or some melees) do all at once, so yeah, whatever. It's also nowhere near as strong as it used to be but hey, it's not as if facts matter. Also, there are still a lot of other explosives that don't deal self-damage.

 

Self-damage:

Spoiler

The main reason why (almost) no self-damage is good is because of the borked aiming system Warframe has. You simply can't reliably use explosive weapons if you can't jump or run (or rather change directions) and shoot at the same time because your Sentinel ('works' with all kinds of other things as well, e.g. enemies or allies) might end up in the direct aiming path the moment you shoot - despite maybe being behind you - and you will hit it instead of shooting where you actually aimed. This will always lead to some risk that the player can't control because it's by design and not by being careless and it's stupid to be punished for it.

One can argue if self-damage has a place in a game like this. Personally, I say it hasn't and all explosive weapons would be much nicer to play with if it was gone (or rather reduced to a fixed value); just look at the Penta's 'new' Augment and how much more popular it got (purely anecdotal but I see the weapon way more often now) because of, guess what, no self-damage (and admittedly other cool mechanics).

 

Buffed weapons:

Spoiler

In regards to the buffed weapons: stuff like reducing Glaxion's range and Ogris' projectile damage are really weird - their respective buffs aren't enough to make them any more viable. Glaxion suffers from the same problem other continuous weapons do, namely status per second not working properly due to some ancient 'fix' for this weapon category (from own tests I can say that e.g. an advertised 212.5% status per second on the Ignis only does about 1.16 procs per second in reality which obviously is a huge disparity). Fixing the underlying mechanics rather than merely increasing base damage would make more sense, so the weapon might be able to perform its purpose.

Also, adding a 10% crit chance on a weapon like Miter is kind of .. strange? It'll still not be viable to mod for crit, so it's essentially a 10% average damage buff (assuming a standard 2x multiplier); a flat damage increase would've been more helpful. The reduced charge time is very nice, though.

Edited by rngd444
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