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Coming Soon: Weapon Balance Pass.


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4 hours ago, Zeratul81 said:

I seriously don't get this attitude that just because someone is using a Tonkor (or any other weapong for that matter) it somehow takes away from someone elses gameplay. I mean I can understand the concern that you might feel that you are not contributing as much but it still has NEVER entered into my mind that I would want those weapons changed just because of that. I have around 1010h gameplay (according to Steam) with Warframe and I have been in countless groups where there has been a player thats setup is simply so powerfull for that particular mission that the rest of the team barely register in the stats. Somehow I fail to see this as a problem. I have seen groups with 3 Tonkor and 1 Synoid Simulor and I could not care less. Most of the time It has just meant that we got the firepower to make through this mission (typically Excavation) more easily.

 

If I were to take the Excavations as an example I am more annoyed of the people that join a public group and go to the extraction zone after the first excavator just because they are there for the easy money. It annoys me that some peoples contribution to the excavation is to stand next to the excavator idle when they notice there a good defence there and we have no real (to my understanding) mechanism to remove these players from the game while remaining 3 of group are pulling all the weight. It also annoys me that a lot of people come there with unleveled frames and weapons and basically make it harder for others (even though this does not bother me nearly as much as people just idling, if you put the effort even with lvling your gear its fine by me)

 

But somehow the people using the Tonkor are the problem?

 

I played a long time before I even considered Tonkor. Its my go to weapon farming relics in Hieracon Excavation mission.

Its a great weapon (for me) to

  • Take out groups of enemies
  • Its a great weapon to get the excavator area clear as you can just shoot at the excavator and blow up the enemies next to it
  • Its Explosion/Blast status also knocks down enemies that dont get instantly killed by the shot

 

For me personally I see huge problems in using this weapon where I currently use it the most (Excavation / Hieracon). Lately I have been just using my Frost on these runs to make sure that there is at least one Warframe in the group that provides some kind of protections for the Excavator. Considering the self damage change to Tonkor and using the Globe I am not sure how am I supposed to kill any mob that gets inside the globe (which they will surely do). Basically I assume that htis will mean that I wont be able to use the Tonkor inside that Globe anymore DEPENDING on how far I actually have to be from the target when I shoot it?

 

I fear that the currrent change will do exactly the same to Tonkor that I expirience with Angstrum (if I remembner the secondary weapon name correlty). Even without great mod setup the weapon will simply one shot me most of the time because of the louse accurasy and hitting random objects/npcs too close. I loved the idea of a weapon like that but the self damage on it simply took all of my interest of using it and trying to micromanage my movement and aim with a weapon. I fear that this will eventually or very fast result into the fact that I will just stop using the weapon.

 

Then again I guess I could just keep uising the Tonkor and see if the people that did not like people using Tonkor before now like ressing this Tonkor user all the time when he/she either shoots the weapon in a totally wrong place or someone accidentaly moves into the line of fire.

 

I really hope that DE takes into consideration the already voiced great ideas to Tonkor if the requirement is that self damage is there to stay. And that is to make the self damage something that is still risky (set dmg amount) but does not automatically mean death.

 

With this current planned changes I just can not see it as a good change unless the objective is to stop people from using it.

Nah man, you're ruining others' fun! 
/s

Seriously, this "nerf everything because -it's not fair-" mentality is the most absurd thing ever. I've been on plenty of missions with SynMirages and I simply helped killing what that Mirage didn't kill. There have been times where I ended up killing more than a SynMirage. So every single one saying "But I can't kill, I don't like others ruining -my- fun!" is lying, go and try, don't stay quiet on the same room as a SynMirage, it's not as if enemies came from only one spot...

The only truth here is that people's ego is so high that they want these weapons nerfed because they want to be the ones ending each mission with the highest stats. I couldn't care less if someone brings one of these combinations, I even take it as a challenge to try and keep up with them. Ultimately what I care is that we complete the mission and these people are helping with that.
The annoying ones are those who leech or stay idle NOT contributing to the mission, but why doesn't DE nerf that by letting us kick people? No, better nerf Mag, right?

Even worse is people being happy about this... look, people spend time and money on these things, you need prime mods and lots of endo/credits to get the optimal builds, go ahead and start from the very beginnin without receiving any help, let's see how fast you can get those builds. People asking for nerfs forget that there should be a thing called progression, there will always be better weapons, it doesn't matter if they nerf one or two, the next few will replace them so chasing this so called "balance" on a -PVE- game is nonsense.

Warframe is great because we are space ninja killing machines, stop nerfing everything, I don't want Warframe to become a boring tps, we're supposed to be these godly beings that kill thousands and thousands of enemies... THAT'S the fun of the game...

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4 hours ago, Zeratul81 said:

For me personally I see huge problems in using this weapon where I currently use it the most (Excavation / Hieracon). Lately I have been just using my Frost on these runs to make sure that there is at least one Warframe in the group that provides some kind of protections for the Excavator. Considering the self damage change to Tonkor and using the Globe I am not sure how am I supposed to kill any mob that gets inside the globe (which they will surely do). Basically I assume that htis will mean that I wont be able to use the Tonkor inside that Globe anymore DEPENDING on how far I actually have to be from the target when I shoot it?

I understand and somewhat agree with most of your complete post.  I'm just quoting this one part as I have a suggestion on how to handle this one situation you mentioned. 

Should the enemies get inside your Snow Globe couldn't you just melee them instead if they are that close.  I'm not knocking you for how you use it currently.  Just offering I possible alternative for you in the given situation that was mentioned. 

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27 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

I guess? I've had almost no issues blowing myself up with the penta before tether grenades even existed. I'm still not seeing how tether grenades helped you when a majority of your shots made were well out of the way of yourself. Its not much different with the tonkor. The only reason you would spend more time being revived is if you make unwise decisions and shot/detonate grenades too close to yourself, which is pretty easy to avoid in most cases. For the exceptions, whip out your melee or secondary and clear the way, then go back to blowing everything up with your boom boom of choice. Literally nothing about that has changed.

I wouldn't be opposed to putting some degree of a cap on self damage, as I agree that being able to one shot yourself at full heal might be too much. but over all, its really a non-issue. Just don't stand near your shots. Its not that hard. Plenty of people have been managing just fine since self damage was first a thing. Nothings really changed.

Again, my issue with the self damage is that there are two factors I personally have no control over - enemies and team mates walking into the line of fire. I don't mind blowing myself up if it's my fault, because there is a lesson to be learned there, but one-shot self damage as a punishment for someone elses mistake isn't really what I'd call encouraging, which is why I personally barely use launcher weapons.

This is also why I always solo radiation sorties or M. Alad V, because I, again, personally, think it's stupid to have the goal of the game to make your stuff as powerful as possible, but then add a mechanic to damage yourself, or team mates.

If you like that kind of stuff, more power to you, but I don't enjoy it. Again, just my personal opinion, I'm not trying to tell anyone how they should play the game for themselves.

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Realising the chance of anyone (DE) reading this is low. That it may have been said already. And that people might mistake it for fanboying. 

Telos Boltace.

Why a total rework on the mechanics? The radial wave attacks are rather unique on their own. I'll admit it needs a nerf, but the two issues with the Telos Boltace are it's ridiculous range with Primed Reach and it's enormous base damage.

So why not nerf those? Either by making Primed Reach not effect the wave range, or greatly increasing the wave damage dropoff.

This keeps the uniqueness of the radial wave attack and the utility it brings. Because, outside the damage meta, the Telos Boltace brings some much needed diversity with all kinds of status/proc builds that aren't damaged focussed (and mix up playstyles).

 

 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

I guess? I've had almost no issues blowing myself up with the penta before tether grenades even existed. I'm still not seeing how tether grenades helped you when a majority of your shots made were well out of the way of yourself. Its not much different with the tonkor. The only reason you would spend more time being revived is if you make unwise decisions and shot/detonate grenades too close to yourself, which is pretty easy to avoid in most cases. For the exceptions, whip out your melee or secondary and clear the way, then go back to blowing everything up with your boom boom of choice. Literally nothing about that has changed.

I wouldn't be opposed to putting some degree of a cap on self damage, as I agree that being able to one shot yourself at full heal might be too much. but over all, its really a non-issue. Just don't stand near your shots. Its not that hard. Plenty of people have been managing just fine since self damage was first a thing. Nothings really changed.

If we finally get the shield gating they they talked about them we won't have to worry about and would really help self damage weapons

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2 minutes ago, Skadedyr said:

Realising the chance of anyone (DE) reading this is low. That it may have been said already. And that people might mistake it for fanboying. 

Telos Boltace.

Why a total rework on the mechanics? The radial wave attacks are rather unique on their own. I'll admit it needs a nerf, but the two issues with the Telos Boltace are it's ridiculous range with Primed Reach and it's enormous base damage.

So why not nerf those? Either by making Primed Reach not effect the wave range, or greatly increasing the wave damage dropoff.

This keeps the uniqueness of the radial wave attack and the utility it brings. Because, outside the damage meta, the Telos Boltace brings some much needed diversity with all kinds of status/proc builds that aren't damaged focussed (and mix up playstyles).

 

 

 

 

It's also the best box opener in the game. And the only complaint I have with the current Boltace was effects. Didn't bother me as much as others, but I do try to consider others in missions. Anything brighter than black energy color would fry toasters and be general eye vomit. I still think we should get a weapon fx toggle to help with toasters or people who don't like it

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1 minute ago, nickl3188 said:

It's also the best box opener in the game. And the only complaint I have with the current Boltace was effects. Didn't bother me as much as others, but I do try to consider others in missions. Anything brighter than black energy color would fry toasters and be general eye vomit. I still think we should get a weapon fx toggle to help with toasters or people who don't like it

Oh yeah, forgot about the effects (I always run Black on my Telos Boltace). That could do with a nerf too. :P

It's a shame to nerf the uniqueness of the wave mechanics though.

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12 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I understand and somewhat agree with most of your complete post.  I'm just quoting this one part as I have a suggestion on how to handle this one situation you mentioned. 

Should the enemies get inside your Snow Globe couldn't you just melee them instead if they are that close.  I'm not knocking you for how you use it currently.  Just offering I possible alternative for you in the given situation that was mentioned. 

 

The problem in that case might be though that it still does not stop the enemy from hitting the excavator and if the Excavation has progressed far enough it probably does not take that many hits from the mobs to destroy the excavator while I am still doing melee dmg to them. But yeah, there most likely is a decent method of handling that with something else than Tonkor.

 

At the same time I have to say that I have not used that many different melee weapons or gone really in depth with warframes and weapon there might most likely be some way to use the melee as CC for the mobs. Even though I have played a lot I personally feel I have just scratched the surface of the options. Mostly because I take 1-3 objectives and concentrate on them and melee has not been among them. (Still about 80 ready items waiting in the Foundry :) )

 

I am not sure but I wonder if DE would then consider changing the Globe to allow projectiles/etc to pass through it from outside also when we are talking about players that are doing the shooting? Or does that cause a whole lot of other problems.

 

The only real problem for me related to Tonkor changes is that if it really is changed to the point where it will one shot you then that is too much. I am not against self damage but it should be reasonable so it would be some set amount of damage that you could survive but it would still make you vulnerable in the sense that any additional dmg from other sources or shooting multiple projectiles from the Tonkor might result in you killing yourself. That I could live with in addition to the other changes.

 

Even with the above mentioned suggestion I still see a high risk that these changes will just make the weapon nothing more than an item that will net you Mastery on your way up the MR ladder and that would really be shame as I really do like the weapon and am still hoping to get lucky and find a Riven for it.


I guess I can just wait and see if these changes are final or if DE does changes to them.

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1 hour ago, ThaLegendaryCat said:

I meant that the Sound Quake Pulses FX was removed and replaced with a solid wave thats only for the bansheeeee

You meant give the Telos Boltace the same treatment as Sound Quake instead of nerfing the Telos Boltace, correct?
Based on this:

On 23/03/2017 at 10:37 PM, ThaLegendaryCat said:

And why nerf it into the ground instead give it the Bansheee Sound Quake treatment so they cant complain about the FX.

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2 hours ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

But if you dislike actually playing the game so much, why do you persist? There are tons of free walking simulators on the Internet, showcasing all sorts of environments.

I don't dislike playing, just farming is literally  a rectal pain for me sometimes(hema research for example).

And when my hands are tired a killerframe is very much welcomed as that allows more relaxed gameplay with same results. 

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11 minutes ago, Zeratul81 said:

At the same time I have to say that I have not used that many different melee weapons or gone really in depth with warframes and weapon there might most likely be some way to use the melee as CC for the mobs. Even though I have played a lot I personally feel I have just scratched the surface of the options. Mostly because I take 1-3 objectives and concentrate on them and melee has not been among them. (Still about 80 ready items waiting in the Foundry :) )

Then my fellow Tenno you should look into some of the longer ranged melee weapons.  Galatine/prime is my personal favorite for this type of thing, but there are others that will get the job done as well like the Atterax.  My only other suggestion for you is to get more familiar with using all of your loadout.  This means using more than just your primary weapon.  We all have secondary and melee as options for a reason. 

One method I use is to have a loadout that complements each other.   Example: I have a high fire rate secondary (Akstiletto Prime) to complement my slower firing Bow primary. 

Please remember that what I've said here are just suggestions and not intended to force you into a playstyle that you might not like. 

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Fun fact: Synoid Simulor and Tonkor are nowhere near as broken as Maim Equinox, Soundquake Banshee or Spore Saryn at killing things, and none of those get nerfed, or even get complained.

This is what you get when company balances their game around noob's feedback whose only experience is lv30 exterminate lol

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4 minutes ago, HolyDemon00 said:

Fun fact: Synoid Simulor and Tonkor are nowhere near as broken as Maim Equinox, Soundquake Banshee or Spore Saryn at killing things, and none of those get nerfed, or even get complained.

This is what you get when company balances their game around noob's feedback whose only experience is lv30 exterminate lol

Oh god, please don't let them touch the EquiNuke T____________T

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5 minutes ago, HolyDemon00 said:

Fun fact: Synoid Simulor and Tonkor are nowhere near as broken as Maim Equinox, Soundquake Banshee or Spore Saryn at killing things, and none of those get nerfed, or even get complained.

This is what you get when company balances their game around noob's feedback whose only experience is lv30 exterminate lol

"Yeah man but, but boltace has snowflakes that hurt my eyes and synoid has that sound that I don't like." - Feedback for nerfing weapons :)))

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8 minutes ago, HolyDemon00 said:

Fun fact: Synoid Simulor and Tonkor are nowhere near as broken as Maim Equinox, Soundquake Banshee or Spore Saryn at killing things, and none of those get nerfed, or even get complained.

This is what you get when company balances their game around noob's feedback whose only experience is lv30 exterminate lol

Fun fact: you're just giving new nerf target to the "noobs"

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12 hours ago, Roachester said:

Cool. When level 120+ enemies become a regular occurrence outside of endless missions, maybe that'll mean something. Assuming that never happens, weapons like the Simulor and Tonkor would have remained a huge problem for people had something not been done about them.

Where the hell are you seeing so much simulor spam ? I mean ... I'm currently not doing high level high duration survival (so no 120+ enemies) and I'm am not seeing lots of mirage-simulor ... I haven't seen one for days now, even in sortie.

 

3 hours ago, Quanlain said:

Plus these types of weapons actually ruin some warframe experience: Nidus can't get stacks, Trinity can't find EV target (and is blamed for that additioanally), and so on.

Someone oneshoting every enemies and blaming Trinity for not doing EV is a #$&(%. And he will be regardless the frame or weapon he is using.

 

5 hours ago, Zeratul81 said:

I seriously don't get this attitude that just because someone is using a Tonkor (or any other weapong for that matter) it somehow takes away from someone elses gameplay. I mean I can understand the concern that you might feel that you are not contributing as much but it still has NEVER entered into my mind that I would want those weapons changed just because of that. I have around 1010h gameplay (according to Steam) with Warframe and I have been in countless groups where there has been a player thats setup is simply so powerfull for that particular mission that the rest of the team barely register in the stats. Somehow I fail to see this as a problem. I have seen groups with 3 Tonkor and 1 Synoid Simulor and I could not care less. Most of the time It has just meant that we got the firepower to make through this mission (typically Excavation) more easily.

 

If I were to take the Excavations as an example I am more annoyed of the people that join a public group and go to the extraction zone after the first excavator just because they are there for the easy money. It annoys me that some peoples contribution to the excavation is to stand next to the excavator idle when they notice there a good defence there and we have no real (to my understanding) mechanism to remove these players from the game while remaining 3 of group are pulling all the weight. It also annoys me that a lot of people come there with unleveled frames and weapons and basically make it harder for others (even though this does not bother me nearly as much as people just idling, if you put the effort even with lvling your gear its fine by me)

 

But somehow the people using the Tonkor are the problem?

 

 

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

They gonna cry again to nerf stuff. People are already gathering asking for focus and banshe nerfs.

These guys dont care about the weapon, all of them follow the "cod and other generic fps" logic where getting the most kills is the most important thing.

They gonna bring in any weapon into a pub run, see a guy with maxes stat gear killing stuff faster.

The objective of every late nerf is either :

- pleasing whiners -which seems to make a lots of noise on the forum, maybe on support ticket too but might not play a lot ingame-

- making money. Some people are using shortcut (eg, platinum) in order to build their weapon, and those late nerf are quite strange. Apart from telos boltace which was released in sept/2016, synsim and tonkor were in game since 2015. I totally understand weapons fine tuning just after they were released .. but 2 years later ? I'm not in the case, but i'm understanding what they are feeling right now.

 

In my personal experience, I'm still not seeing a lots of those 3 weapons ingame. It might be different when recruiting for level 100++ enemies, but at this level the dps is needed. I have never seen any recruiting message stating "please no simulor/tonkor/boltace". Quite strange considering those weapons are so hated. Maybe they are hated here, in the forum, but not in game ?

You start an excavation. A Frost joins you. Great, we can stay longer thanks to his snow globe ! A wild nova appears. Great ! We can stay even longer now thanks to molecular prime ! A wild Mirage simulor appear ? Oh no, he is going to kill everyone and we will be forced to extract. Hey, wait, what ? What about staying even longer and getting more loots, affinity, focus ? This is a simple ego issue. If you are not the top damage dealer, you feel bad.

Every high damage oriented frames or weapons are going to get nerfed in the end. Thanks to whiners, we wont be able to farm very high level missions anymore. Akkad 20 waves and extract, here we come !

 

DE : The solution is not nerfing already working weapons, but buffing broken / unused weapon. This nerf mania is just going to kill endless farm. Remember 20mn survival is nothing.

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Heads up everyone: we are expecting to roll out the Weapon Balance pass today!

Since the time of my original posting, some things have changed after further testing!

Tonkor:

  • The Accuracy of the Tonkor has been increased.
  • The Tonkor Grenade now has an 'arming' feature to prevent insta-deaths from self damage if an ally or enemy suddenly appears in front of you. The Tonkor grenade must travel 6 meters to become armed and ready to explode - any impact before that time will result in a bounce.

Simulor:

  • Maximum Ammo Capacity Reduced to 60.

Synoid Simulor:

  • Maximum Ammo Capacity reduced to 75.
  • The amount of Orbs required to make a full stack has has decreased from 5 to 4 (original post said 3).
  • The Explosion Damage has gone from  50 per orb to 75 per orb (300 at full stack).
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