Removing RNG from base gameplay mechanics

[PerishedFraud]

A series of changes that make gameplay more fluid and stable. Focus is on making the changes simple, comprehensive, and easy to add to the game.

Status/Crit chance

Spoiler

Old: flat random status chance/crit chance for every shot fired.

Proposed: Counter Stacking. Every hit generates counters for your weapon equal to your status chance/crit chance. Once you reach 100, your next shot is a guaranteed proc/crit and resets the counter.

*Both crit and status counters are visible to the player. (for >100% crit, you fill a third counter with the amount you have over 100, which red crits when full and resets)

(Anything left over is added, if you have 60% crit/status for example, the counter will go like this: 60, 120 (crit/proc), 80 (60+leftover 20), 140 (crit/proc), 100 (crit/proc), 60

Multishot

Spoiler

Old: A flat random chance for an additional shot.

Proposed: Multishot adds to base damage. Bullets/shots that kill enemies split with half damage and continue past it. Say you have 190% total multishot (rifles), a 95% bullet/shot will continue past an enemy. For 250% (pistols), a 125% shot will continue, which will again split to a 62.5%. Punchthrough enables the first bullet to pass without splitting (it splits once it cannot go through)

*This removes any aiming problems and RNG, and means it is more than just base damage.

*There shouldn't be any increased status chance based on multishot. (If the base procs, split bullets also proc but with less damage, if base doesn't, they don't).

Berserker:

Spoiler

Old: Procs on crit only, up to three stacks, stacks are individually timed.

Proposed: You need 3 regular hits to proc berserker, or one crit (if you crit, the regular hit counter resets, preventing nigh-instant berserking). This means every weapon can do it. Also the timer on berserker works on every stack, for consistency.

Blood rush/Weeping wounds:

Spoiler

Old: increases crit/status chance based on the multiplier, giving a clear edge to specialized weapons.

Proposed : Addition of three new multiplier-based mods:

-Increased damage/lowered crit chance

-Increased damage/lowered status chance

-Greatly Increased damage/ lowered crit and status chance

*These would allow you to make your weapon a multiplier-based one with just as much efficiency as crit weapons have right now.

*The mods are not compatible with each other or blood rush.

Procs:

Spoiler

Old: Procs are RNG-based with greater-damage elements getting priority

Proposed: You can pick any elements your weapon has from itself or the mods you put on it. You can add as many as you want, from what you have available. If you put one element, only it can proc. If you put two, there's a half chance for each, etc.

*Example: Your weapon deals corrosive+blast = you can pick corrosive, blast, electricity, toxin, cold and heat as your proc, as well as any combination of these, even all of them (though that would be incredibly inconsistent).

Warning: posts below may contain Tenno opposing this concept without a real reason, Tenno opposing this concept without actually reading through it, Tenno providing biased or false points against this concept, and sometimes actual, constructive feedback. TLDR there's lots of salt and there will probably be more. You have been warned.

Edited March 23, 2017 by BeeOverlord

[SquireAngel]

This would actually slow down the pace of the game a LOT, not to mention mess with just about every build in existence. Accuracy is technically RNG to a degree that is inherent to shooting a gun. Crit chance and Status Chance are fine as is. 

[KirukaChan]

I like the idea of this thread. Taking RNG out of combat would make me very happy. Crits in particular.

As far as crits go, though, I'm more of a fan of making crit damage mods add to damage dealt to weak spots, while crit chance mods increase the size of a weak spot (you'd still have to actually hit the enemy for it to count, but more of their model would allow for headshots etc.).

[PerishedFraud]

1 hour ago, KirukaChan said:

As far as crits go, though, I'm more of a fan of making crit damage mods add to damage dealt to weak spots, while crit chance mods increase the size of a weak spot (you'd still have to actually hit the enemy for it to count, but more of their model would allow for headshots etc.).

This was honestly my original idea, and I would fully support it...but I'm afraid it would involve a massive amount of reworking weapons, and some people would immediately oppose it to boot. (meanwhile, what I have suggested shouldn't really anger anyone (edit: I take it back! ), and isn't hard to implement)

Edited March 23, 2017 by BeeOverlord

[--BountyHunter--]

For a change this big to be put into action, Warframe would need to be totally revamped.

[Tsukinoki]

6 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

As far as crits go, though, I'm more of a fan of making crit damage mods add to damage dealt to weak spots, while crit chance mods increase the size of a weak spot (you'd still have to actually hit the enemy for it to count, but more of their model would allow for headshots etc.).

Problem with this idea: What about the numerous enemies that simply don't have weakspots?
This would make crit weapons utterly useless against said opponents.  Not a good solution at all.
On the other hand continuous fire weapons (such as the Ignis and Quanta and Nukor) would get a stupidly massive buff...especially the nukor.

Further, you seem to be completely forgetting melee weapons.  Good luck getting the headshots needed so that your crit melee can deal its damage!  If we take infested into account then crit melee becomes utterly pointless with your idea.

[PerishedFraud]

16 minutes ago, BountyHunter652 said:

For a change this big to be put into action, Warframe would need to be totally revamped.

It wouldn't. Every single change was suggested with this scenario in consideration.

If what was listed would be put into action, no other change would be necessary.

Please don't troll. (or respond without actually reading)

Edited March 23, 2017 by BeeOverlord

[o.0-]

I have a different idea for Multishot and Status Effects:

Currently, Multi-shot increases the number of projectiles per ammo fired and simply adds that damage; so 100% Multishot, you double damage since you now have two projectiles and split Status Chances per projectile. Critical Damage does not get split up.

Multi-Shot

I'd rather see Multi-Shot not raise damage like it does now, and simply add more chances to proc, so it becomes an alternative to modding for Crits and remains very important for modding for Status.

For example:

As you can see, the gun fires one shot from the gun and depending on the base number of projectiles, is able to fire more projectiles from one shot.

So I'd look into three things:

1. Multi-Shot shares the original total damage between the added projectiles, like how Status Chance is spread between them.

2. If we want to have Multi-Shot not benefit Crit builds, Crit Chance is also split up just like Status.

3. Add a +Base Boost or Multiplier for Status, when increasing projectile count, to act as a buffer so Status does not dip too low with increasing projectile count, could be flat like Entropy Burst mod, or like the other existing Status Chance mods.

Status Effects

First off, I was thinking of tweaking the Effects and adjusting how often the different Effects would tick.

Going more in-depth with the above table on grouping damage types and assigning new Status Effects, there should also be a look at Red Status and individualizing the frequency of Status Effects.

Spoiler

BALLISTICS DAMAGE:

Puncture - per Projectile

- Current Status Effect:       Penetration (Adds 0.4 Punch Through.)
- RED Status Effect:            Exit Wound (Adds damage over time.)

Impact/Slash - per Enemy hit

- Current Status Effect:       Hydro-Static Shock (Inflicts damage over time.)
- RED Status Effect:            Wound Channel (Increased damage and stagger.)

Blast  - per Enemy hit

- Current Status Effect:       Pressure Wave (Stuns and throws target and nearby enemies within 5 meters to the ground.)
- RED Status Effect:            Bulldoze (Knocks targets within 10 meters of the initial target to the ground)

MELEE DAMAGE:

Puncture/Slash - per Enemy Hit

- Current Status Effect:       Bleed Out (Inflicts Damage over time.)
- RED Status Effect:            Bloody Mess (Bleeding Enemy has a small aura that can slow down and reduce ally LOS.)

Impact - per Enemy Hit

- Current Status Effect:       Crush (Staggers a target momentarily.)
- RED Status Effect:            Cripple (Staggered enemy takes longer to recover, decreasing an attribute.)

ENERGY DAMAGE:

Cold - per tick, chance to refresh Effect

- Current Status Effect:       Snap-Freeze (Reduces movement speed, fire rate, and attack speed.)
- RED Status Effect:            Sub Zero (Affected enemy has an aura that can proc Freeze and target's armor is weakened.)

Electricity - per tick, chance to refresh Effect

- Current Status Effect:       Chain Lightning (Deals damage to enemies within 5 meters of target, stunning them.)
- RED Status Effect:            Lightning Conduit (Chain Lighting affects more enemies within 10 meters and affect lasts longer for Robotics.)

Magnetic - per Enemy hit

- Current Status Effect:       Disrupt (Reduces target’s current shields and maximum shield capacity.)
- RED Status Effect:            Interference (Disrupted enemy attains a small 5 meter aura that can proc Disrupt on allies.)

Radiation per Enemy hit

- Current Status Effect:       Weaken (Staggers and Reduces damage dealt by enemies.)
- RED Status Effect:            Radioactive (Weakened Enemy has an aura that can proc Weaken on Allies.)

Ultrasonic - per Enemy Hit

- Current Status Effect:       Confusion (Allows for wild shooting and Friendly Fire damage.)
- RED Status Effect:            Hooliganism (Affected enemy can Proc Confusion on others.)

CHEMICAL DAMAGE:

Heat - per tick, chance to refresh Effect

- Current Status Effect:       Ignite (Thermal Shock weakens materiel and burns Flesh.)
- RED Status Effect:            Firestorm (The effected enemy can proc Ignite on allies.)

Toxin - per tick, chance to refresh Effect

- Current Status Effect:       Poison (DoT, bypasses shields.)
- RED Status Effect:            Epidemic (Creates an aura on an enemy that has a chance to proc Poison on unaffected allies.)

Corrosive - per tick, chance to refresh Effect

- Current Status Effect:      Corrode (Permanently degrades a target’s armor and burns Flesh.)
- RED Status Effect:           Corrosive Mist (Enemy, affected by Corrode, has reduced LOS.)

Gas - per tick, chance to refresh Effect

- Current Status Effect:       Poison Cloud (Chokes unmasked enemies and deals poison damage.)
- RED Status Effect:            Poison Fog (Increases the size of Poison Clouds, with more opacity that reduces LOS for enemies inside it.)

Viral - per Enemy hit
- Current Status Effect:       Infect (Reduces a target’s current and maximum health.)
- RED Status Effect:            Propagated Outbreak (Creates an aura that has a chance to proc Viral on allies.)

Lastly, I was thinking of having Elemental Damage have standalone mods:

Standalone Elemental mods and tweaking values on Damage boosting mods.

I am still of the opinion that combining Elemental mods (like Heat and Cold for Blast) should be retired and standalone mods be created. Then normalize the damage boosts and status chance between IPS mods and Elemental mods, possibly as additive to Status Chance? Need to see how the game engine handles it, so up to the devs.

I could live single stat be 90% and 11 drain, with dual stat at 60/60 at 9 or 7 drain, for example.

Spoiler

 

[PerishedFraud]

6 minutes ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

I have a different idea for Multishot and Status Effects:

Currently, Multi-shot increases the number of projectiles per ammo fired and simply adds that damage; so 100% Multishot, you double damage since you now have two projectiles and split Status Chances per projectile. Critical Damage does not get split up.

-Snip-

It's not a bad idea, but i'd just make a thread for it if I were you, seeing as you're going into a great amount of detail and content. (Meanwhile, I try to keep things mechanically simple and easy to execute/change). Still, have a +1 

Edited March 23, 2017 by BeeOverlord

[--BountyHunter--]

6 minutes ago, BeeOverlord said:

It wouldn't. Every single change was suggested with this scenario in consideration.

If what was listed would be put into action, no other change would be necessary.

Please don't troll. (or respond without actually reading)

This game is *run* by RNG and it will probably stay that way.

There are way too many things to 'consider' in Warframe. More than what was mentioned.

'Please don't troll' So according to you, trolling is stating an opinion on what I believe willl happen? If it is then well, you'll see a lot of 'trolling' here.

 

 

[Tsukinoki]

9 minutes ago, BeeOverlord said:

It wouldn't. Every single change was suggested with this scenario in consideration.

If what was listed would be put into action, no other change would be necessary.

Please don't troll. (or respond without actually reading)

Your idea would require a large overhaul, especially in the numbers department for every weapon, and it would slow down gameplay massively, which DE doesn't want to do.

As to why it would slow down gameplay, you would have everyone go: "Oh the enemy counters for status procs on me are going up!  Better hide behind a box for 10 seconds to let it "drain"/reset/however-your-system-would-handle-it so that I don't get a status proc/critical hit dealt to me!" which is expected in games like Dark Souls which is massively slower paced.  In a game like warframe it would just ruin the flow way too much.

Beyond that pretty much every weapon and mod would need to be retouched with values tweaked because a massive change like this can't be just dropped into place.  Pretty much every warframe ability and weapon would need to be updated and tweaked and every enemy would need to be rebalanced against this system, hence why this would require a revamp of the entire game.

Please don't act like your idea can just be dropped into the game without reworking pretty much the entire thing.

40 minutes ago, BeeOverlord said:

Procs:

Old: Procs are rng based with greater-damage elements getting priority

Proposed: Based on what elements your weapon has, you can pick exactly which elements you want to proc from the pool you have. You can add as many as you want, from what you have available.

Example: Your weapon deals corrosive+blast = you can pick corrosive, blast, electricity, toxin, cold and heat as your proc, as well as any combination of these, even all of them (though that would be incredibly inconsistent). the chance is no longer tied to what damage the elements have, allowing more specialized builds. (If you add 5 elements for the hell of it, each will have 20% chance to proc)

I don't see DE going for this.
The explicitly made the elements combine like they do to avoid the old "This enemy is burning and frozen at the same time!" which your idea basically just goes back to.
They also don't want situations where you're using Gas damage and randomly lighting enemies on fire instead of poisoning them.

Further how your status counter idea would work isn't quite clear.
Say my weapon has a 50% status chance, meaning every two shots on an enemy procs something.  I have 2 elemental combinations on it, say Viral and Radiation.  When it procs what happens?  Is it still RNG (which is counter to the entire idea you're proposing at its core, to remove RNG) or does each element fill up 25% of the way so I need 4 shots but it procs both at the same time?

Edited March 23, 2017 by Tsukinoki

[PerishedFraud]

15 minutes ago, BountyHunter652 said:

This game is *run* by RNG and it will probably stay that way.

There are way too many things to 'consider' in Warframe. More than what was mentioned.

'Please don't troll' So according to you, trolling is stating an opinion on what I believe willl happen? If it is then well, you'll see a lot of 'trolling' here.

The RNG that runs warframe is tied more to rewards, farming and grinding than the basic gameplay mechanics I'm adressing here. 

In regards to the above, i do agree, which is why I have not suggested anything related to it.

Are you sure you've read the post?

Though, if you really think that the changes I specifically suggested to not change the whole system will change the whole system, then i guess that's your opinion.  Sorry if i offended you somehow.

Edited March 23, 2017 by BeeOverlord

[PerishedFraud]

8 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Your idea would require a large overhaul, especially in the numbers department for every weapon, and it would slow down gameplay massively, which DE doesn't want to do.

As to why it would slow down gameplay, you would have everyone go: "Oh the enemy counters for status procs on me are going up!  Better hide behind a box for 10 seconds to let it "drain"/reset/however-your-system-would-handle-it so that I don't get a status proc/critical hit dealt to me!" which is expected in games like Dark Souls which is massively slower paced.  In a game like warframe it would just ruin the flow way too much.

Yet there hasn't been a single mention of enemy mechanics changing. And honestly, what you've said is still better than getting procced randomly, despite not being part of my suggestions.

8 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Beyond that pretty much every weapon and mod would need to be retouched with values tweaked because a massive change like this can't be just dropped into place.  Pretty much every warframe ability and weapon would need to be updated and tweaked and every enemy would need to be rebalanced against this system, hence why this would require a revamp of the entire game.

RNG gets removed, but the actual chances for procs or crits don't change. No weapons would need a retouch because the actual stats are maintained. Abilities are not mentioned even once. Where did you get this idea from? Are we talking about the the extremely tiny changes that might occur for a select few weapons? And you think that's enough to justify changes to everything?

8 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Say my weapon has a 50% status chance, meaning every two shots on an enemy procs something.  I have 2 elemental combinations on it, say Viral and Radiation.  When it procs what happens?  Is it still RNG (which is counter to the entire idea you're proposing at its core, to remove RNG) or does each element fill up 25% of the way so I need 4 shots but it procs both at the same time?

You would pick what procs. If you put more than one element, each would have an equal chance to proc. Surely I didn't confuse you.

8 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Please don't act like your idea can just be dropped into the game without reworking pretty much the entire thing.

 And yet it was carefully made with exactly this in mind.

Edited March 23, 2017 by BeeOverlord

[Kainosh]

>Crit

So if you have 25% crit, then you have to shoot enemy 4 times in order to crit?  How will that work with Sniper rifles and other "single shot" precision weapons?

Considering how critical injuries occur on real battlefields (You can get killed by a small shard if it hits the right spot) i think crits are OK being random.

Stacking just doesnt really fit crits imo. Its too mechanical... 123 CRIT 123 CRIT......Who the hell would like that.

>Multishot

Will it also increase status chance?  If not, then what you suggest is kinda ok.  I still dont like multishot though.  I think that this modifier should be removed from game (some rebalance needed though)

>Berserker

If it procs from normal hits, then crits should not really trigger it (because that will make speed gain too rapid for crit weapons)...

>Procs..

I dont think that being able to select what to proc is balanced. Not good idea. 

I think that each proc should have its own mechanics.

 

For example :  Corrosive should remove [proc chance% / 2] of armor on each hit.  So it actually works with every hit...but its efficiency is affected by chance %.

Such stuff.

 

 

 

[PerishedFraud]

First of all, thanks for giving some cool feedback.

11 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

>Crit

So if you have 25% crit, then you have to shoot enemy 4 times in order to crit?  How will that work with Sniper rifles and other "single shot" precision weapons?

Considering how critical injuries occur on real battlefields (You can get killed by a small shard if it hits the right spot) i think crits are OK being random.

Stacking just doesnt really fit crits imo. Its too mechanical... 123 CRIT 123 CRIT......Who the hell would like that.

Well technically speaking it's still the same chance. You often fire it with the current system and it doesn't crit. Knowing when it crits would offer at least some planning.

I feel that 123 CRIT is better than 1 CRIT 341 CRIT 34 CRIT or whatever pattern RNG picks. 

11 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

>Multishot

Will it also increase status chance?  If not, then what you suggest is kinda ok.  I still dont like multishot though.  I think that this modifier should be removed from game (some rebalance needed though)

Wouldn't. I'll add a bit to specifically state it, thanks.

11 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

>Berserker

If it procs from normal hits, then crits should not really trigger it (because that will make speed gain too rapid for crit weapons)...

If a crit would reset the normal hits needed, it would mitigate this, I think. Thanks for bringing it up!

11 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

>Procs..

I dont think that being able to select what to proc is balanced. Not good idea. 

I think that each proc should have its own mechanics.

Believe it or not, DE has actually mentioned working on better procs lately (if i remember correctly at least) :D

Technically you can already pick what procs you have, but the system is very flawed. 

I'm a bit sad on this one because there's flaws to any variation of what we have now. I feel mine would at least remove some frustration when building, but maybe you're right...

Thanks again for taking the time to go through the whole thing.

Edited March 23, 2017 by BeeOverlord

[Naftal]

They should just remove crit chance and put weak spots on everything. Rework crit weapon stats after this.

Crit chance shouldn't exist in games where you can decide where to shoot. Pen and paper and games like WoW where you can't aim, only choose your target, is the only place where crit chance has a place.

[PerishedFraud]

3 minutes ago, Naftal said:

They should just remove crit chance and put weak spots on everything. Rework crit weapon stats after this.

I'd love this, but such changes are up to DE and no one else.From what I've seen, we Tenno can only try to improve what we have, not really change the whole game. (sadly). Who knows, they might just do this in a few years.

Edited March 23, 2017 by BeeOverlord

[Kainosh]

4 minutes ago, Naftal said:

They should just remove crit chance and put weak spots on everything. Rework crit weapon stats after this.

Crit chance shouldn't exist in games where you can decide where to shoot. Pen and paper and games like WoW where you can't aim, only choose your target, is the only place where crit chance has a place.

That would be perfect....But impossible for melee weapons and, well, it means ALL enemies need to be looked at...Thats too much-o-work

[Naftal]

Just now, Kainosh said:

That would be perfect....But impossible for melee weapons and, well, it means ALL enemies need to be looked at...Thats too much-o-work

Why would all enemies need to be looked at? Most enemies have weakspots already.

Melees could just lose the crit mechanic altogether. It's just damage anyway. Or they could alternatively improve melee animations so you can hit weakspots reliably on more than a handful weapons.

[PerishedFraud]

1 minute ago, Naftal said:

Why would all enemies need to be looked at? Most enemies have weakspots already.

Melees could just lose the crit mechanic altogether. It's just damage anyway. Or they could alternatively improve melee animations so you can hit weakspots reliably on more than a handful weapons.

Wishful thinking. Sadly much of the playerbase is very fond of crits, and what you're saying has been suggested at least a few, if not many times.

A big bummer, I'd be all in for a better melee experience or better weakpoints.

[Volinus7]

Remove Riven 

[Naftal]

Just now, BeeOverlord said:

Wishful thinking. Sadly much of the playerbase is very fond of crits, and what you're saying has been suggested at least a few, if not many times.

A big bummer, I'd be all in for a better melee experience or better weakpoints.

Give them an option to change damage numbers to random colors and they'll be happy.

Damage is damage.

[Kainosh]

Just now, Naftal said:

Why would all enemies need to be looked at? Most enemies have weakspots already.

Melees could just lose the crit mechanic altogether. It's just damage anyway. Or they could alternatively improve melee animations so you can hit weakspots reliably on more than a handful weapons.

The only weakspot we currently have on normal enemies is head. Not taking about bosses here.  Always shooting head is kinda...meh.  But adding more bodyparts (weakspos) means each enemy's hitbox must be tweaked

Removing Crit from melee weapons can work...But it must be replaced with powerfull counters and other stuff to compensate (raw damage buff will not cut it).

[PerishedFraud]

Just now, Kainosh said:

The only weakspot we currently have on normal enemies is head. Not taking about bosses here.  Always shooting head is kinda...meh.  But adding more bodyparts (weakspos) means each enemy's hitbox must be tweaked

Removing Crit from melee weapons can work...But it must be replaced with powerfull counters and other stuff to compensate (raw damage buff will not cut it).

Don't moas have leg weakpoints, and don't infested, especially mutalists, have some rather unique ones?

I fully agree with the melee though. We need more options and there's alot of stuff that can be added. It's a bit scary knowing how long such changes might take, if they ever even hit.

[o.0-]

21 minutes ago, BeeOverlord said:

Don't moas have leg weakpoints, and don't infested, especially mutalists, have some rather unique ones?

I fully agree with the melee though. We need more options and there's alot of stuff that can be added. It's a bit scary knowing how long such changes might take, if they ever even hit.

The wiki lists the current multipliers: Enemy Body Parts