What Warframe used to not be missing

[Blink.Ensu]

  I started playing this awesome, involved and extremely unbalanced game a little over 2 years ago. It has these crazy space ninjas with magical abilities and it was all messy and enthralling and utterly entrancing. Every mission or quest you were dragged into or undertook had multiple things you could accomplish simultaneously while you were helping friends or killing each other. Especially if you went to the void ... some of those keys were hard to come by and there was no way to get into specific towers without them! It was fun. You could level up gear and farm prime parts/ducats/argon crystals while getting rad procc'd and killing/lasering friends for the fun of it. There was an intrinsically comical aspect to the game that made it inherently sociable. Nothing truly mattered. As long as the mission was completed successfully goals were met and things accomplished. Everything was rewarding and nothing was not allowed.

 

The devs were the best part of it all though, between live streams and events and forums they were always involved! Seriously, ALWAYS INVOLVED! Now they are arguably more involved with Tennocon and streams troubleshooting mission mode rewards that piss people off to the various platform streams that seem to be happening with more frequency. The DE folks are busy busy busy but there's something missing that I mentioned earlier..... oh yeah, events.

 

These things used to happen once a month at a minimum. They were always unique and frequently used as a beta for upcoming content with special rewards and sigils and weapons etc. Now they happen with far less frequency ... I'm not talking big things like Pacifist Defect with gun toting suicidal madmen to protect or cinematic missions like Second Dream. I mean things simpler like the Phoenix Intercept where it is just level 150-200ish Grineer on Draco(old) and all you get to bring are melee weaps and all you got was a sigil and stratos upgrade. We may get to interact with the devs in various formats these days but we get less of them where it counts. Warframe content. We used to get these smaller events every 2 weeks if not every week.... where'd they go?

 

I know I am asking for a lot to bring back these awful deadlines on the devs that are doing a bunch of absolutely massive updates with brobdingnagian amounts of code changing content at fundamental levels of the game. I get it, but DE you need to make this happen somehow. It added a layer of freshness and involvement to the game that wasnt on Twitch or twitter or limited to those that can make the trip to Canada ... it instead happens in the most important place. WARFRAME.

 

There was a feeling to WF that is missing from 2 years ago and it isnt me. The fun is gone. The multitasking of every mission and the exclusivity of the void and the changes to frequency of events, no matter how small, leave WF feeling redundantly grindy and repetitive without any of the flavor that made it special. You want to balance the game ... You cant. Furthermore, you shouldnt. Change the stats for conclave sure but in PVE co-op? Being unbalanced is what made it fun. Also, the extra layer of RNG grinding in relics has got to go. Bring back the void keys posthaste. I only go to the void when I need argon now and no one will go with me. My clan and everyone I played with is moving on and when I say that it is no small thing. I used to lead a large group of hundreds of players daily. Not anymore. Not because we are tired of WF but because we can't go do a simple T1 laser and see how many times we can kill each other with a bounce pad or switch teleport loki or wormhole nova etc etc while getting xp into a weapon, farming forma and ducats all at the same time. There's no reason to run 40 wave defense on T4 to save keys anymore... or run an 80 minute survival or really do anything of any difficulty.. I might be MR 23 with 1000's of forma spent but my friends and clanmates were not and they are the ones leaving because it isn't fun anymore. Warframe isn't a business of a video game ... it is a social community and the slightest change requires adaptation and time. In the course of the last year you guys have done more then slight changes. This is by far not the first game I have seen make this mistake but it is heartbreaking every time. Your space ninjas have lost their magic. Warframe is hitting it's midichlorian moment here guys ... jumping the shark and all that.

Maybe in the spirit of Octavia you will more readily understand this:

 

Let it be unbalanced. Let the powers be brokenly powerful. Rework the underused and fix what needs to be (limbo/hydroid/parkour etc etc), bring changes to the clan mechanics and even keep the fecking Hema research where it is but for the love of all things holy resurrect the void's magic and ditch the relic system..... As I write this I am thinking I should have linked Adele's Hello instead as there is little hope at this point. I hope I'm wrong.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Blink.Ensu

[MikeFromHawaii]

 

 

Though I rarely played as often as my clan leader I did still play once in a while, what turned me off was the void relic changes mostly but now with these recent nerf updates to the Simulor, Telos Boltace and Tonkor? for the amount of forma I spent on trying to get even close to the meta I get refunded 1 forma out of the dozen I spent? Not just the weapons but the Warframe's themselves...  Now I can't even play the way I want or learned how to play Warframe.   For me the game didn't get better,  but got worst.   Don't get me wrong I'm not hating on the devs or anything I still love this game for it's unique design but for what it's come to,  I do not think I will further invest my time or money into this game sadly.   I was really hoping that I would see the day that an "Oberon Prime" would release so I can make my fellow clanmates eat their words at my newbness of buying Oberon with plat just cause I was new at the time and a friend using Oberon made it look easy...  but thats a story and cherished memory I'll only get to share with the friends I made,  unfortunately many of them are moving on...   

Well goodbye Warframe,  It's been fun while it lasted.  

Edited March 25, 2017 by Mikeolodian

[WarframeWins]

I understand change, and that all things must change at some point, but I do agree with Blink to some degree. A game cannot be balanced when there is no real meta. There's no real end-game content to keep players coming back either. We get this 'high end' gear to grind high end missions, for what? My biggest issue is there is no replay value. I'm MR19 and i'll continue to keep leveling that, but not at the rate at which I used to - it has no real meaning after what.... MR12? 

The Relic system was a change many were... salty about, and in a way, for good reason. One key used to get players the possibility of infinite time in any endless mission (the chances of that though... lol.) Now we have to use the equivalent of that every 5 minutes, or 5 waves. Players theoretically lose on that front now. The saying "You can't have your cake and eat it, too." come to mind as I write this, and think even further than what I'm just typing, which is fine, But there are many more issues that should be addressed first and foremost that I feel have already been mentioned above, and in this post.

I just hope people will read this knowing this is all feedback and not viewed as people "crying" or "*@##$ing" about how DE has handled their product thus far.

[Fugana]

I went Akkad to lvl up Octavia, 4 years ago i didnt imagine warframe like this, after 5 minets of gameplay i felt like i need heavy eye surgery, i expected more mature content, i like the new quest Ordis nailed it all. It was fun it was damn hilarious no doubhg. But i expected dark shadowish Hunhow and we defeat hm with ..... um music? the concept isnt bad at all dont get me wrong it was funn. But on one side we have dark alien destroyer of worlds and spicies on other side we dance and siing?? What happened? 

After the cringefest TWW was i feel like the game is targeting 12 year olds one but with mark 18+? what is happening to warframe??

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

Curses.....i read the title in the meaning of "What Frames have not ever been missing and then found by some NPC/LOTUS in the game".

Then i started reading.....and wondering when you were going to start talking about how MIRAGE was found, and LIMBO was found....

Guess I am tired reading again.

Yeah, we have gotten things less than when it was fresh and competing against DESTINY....but it has strived to give good events over time instead. Most items are becoming more of pay-for (WINTER GLYPHS, VALENTINES GLYPHS) instead of the ways of reward-for-play we had before. It is change and attempting to keep the ship afloat.

I enjoy the game and have lost many clanmates and friends that i started with from Sept 2014....but that is the way the gaming state is- coming and goings of players. We just have to grin and bear the fact that not every player is in it to see how the storyline is going to go. Some just want action or something to kill while others want to talk and laugh it up over bullets and blades. As long as you make some memories, enjoy the game, and help it grow in some manner....things should be okay. Make some new friends and hope that more content and TAC Alerts will find the way to the players over the next couple years.

Cheers

[Iccotak]

This game is not a complete product, there is no end game content and you should not expect there to be end game content yet.

Developer focus should be on fleshing out earlier points in the game. Things like a story campaign, tilesets, sidequests, voice acting, NPCs, we should be pushing for a COMPLETE product. Not just giving us more stuff to keep ourselves occupied.  

[chuckdm]

22 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

This game is not a complete product, there is no end game content and you should not expect there to be end game content yet.

Developer focus should be on fleshing out earlier points in the game. Things like a story campaign, tilesets, sidequests, voice acting, NPCs, we should be pushing for a COMPLETE product. Not just giving us more stuff to keep ourselves occupied.  

Is it or not?  I mean, at some point, we have to decide if any game - Warframe or any other - is a toaster or a poster.

If it's a toaster - that is to say, just another product where functionality is more important than design or appearance or whatever - then doesn't the toaster already work?  In Warframe, we already have a competent third-person shooter.  The guns handle well with appropriate kick given what they're being wielded by and do appropriate damage given their targets, the enemy AI sometimes takes cover, sometimes tries to rush us, etc, so they have some semblance of tactics - about the amount of tactics you'd expect given that most are either brain-degraded clones or, well, infested.  The environments are well designed, and require attention to navigate, along with ample cover in the heat of battle that nevertheless doesn't feel out of place.  (Why is there a crate standing in the middle of the floor here?  Because it's a cargo ship, duh!)  Overall, as a third-person shooter, Warframe is already feature-complete.  We have weapons, we have enemies, we have levels to shoot those enemies in.  That's all that's required, and we have it.  The toaster will now toast bread.

If it's a poster - something nice to look at, a work of art, that serves no functional purpose at all - then I'd argue we have that too.  Compare Warframe to other games near the top of the Free to Play list on Steam.  NONE of those actually LOOK better.  TF2, DOTA, you name it, Warframe's graphical fidelity is flatly superior.  Hell, you'll have a hard time finding a game that looks better that isn't free to play.  MAYBE some of the Ubisoft titles?  I play The Division regularly and I'd say it has some more detail in some places, but then you go somewhere like Darvo's shop and the sheer density of high-detail carefully hand-crafted objects amazes.  I don't know anywhere in The Division with more detail than that.

I do get what you're saying, but I also feel like you're saying Warframe is a toaster, but then saying it's not a complete, ready-to-ship toaster until we give it a nice paint job and also some flame jets that shoot out from under the bottom to make it feel more like it's toasting our bread.  If you want a feature-complete third person shooter, Warframe is already there and has been for a while.

Edited March 25, 2017 by chuckdm

[Iccotak]

2 minutes ago, chuckdm said:

 If you want a feature-complete third person shooter, Warframe is already there and has been for a while.

Except they are still making more features to flesh out the game.

[Armed_Monkey]

... Toppings are still good tho...

Edited March 25, 2017 by Armed_Monkey

[Blink.Ensu]

The spirit of the game, the idea of the game, the feels of the game. Discussing these things tend to send people down side alleys of content and dev worx etc. arguments and flailings. This isnt about any of that.

This isnt a post about collision detection.

This post is about the fact that there is no end game, there is a meta but the usage of it is worthless. I could go on to say the 'people make the game' and I would be totally right and still wholly incomplete. Words fail me. We need a poetry Warframe to go along with the music one. Someone who snaps his fingers in applause every time his words make heads explode.

My point is this. While balancing and adding content and sidelining devs to stream on twitch, what have we lost? When DE switched out tower keys, what have we lost? What did this game have that it no longer does? You could say that I just dont like change ... but what is changing is the foundation of what made Warframe special. Without the unbalanced weaps and powers, without the rarity of the void, without the self challenge and desire to play, Warframe is just another game from the social aspect. 

[Sigmas71]

I also think the "mysteriousness" or relative inaccessibility of the void, coupled with the possibilities of ever-greater rewards...  It was an incentive of massive value to the game that just evaporated over an update. I don't see why everything should be rolled back though.. Surely both the keys and the relics can somehow coexist.. Maybe void keys could be made into relic rewards, and let you access unique high level void missions with GUARANTEED prime drops or something to that effect

[Slaviar]

What we lost with Void Keys? I'll tell you what we lost.

We lost mind-numbing meta farms at same missions against same enemies, fighting abysmal drop rates. Don't tell me setup didn't matter because it did. All missions but Survival took so much longer without meta setup it was hard to find a group for endless if you wanted to just play. People were often scratching their heads when I said I don't want to camp. Regardless of mission, once I even had people leave squad when me and another player refused to camp at T3Surv.

Frankly, you can still go to the Void to get rad proc'ed and team kill for lolz. Relics simply prove you weren't there "for fun", you were there for loot.

As for balance, there is a difference between powerful and broken. Still, screw weapons' ability to kill entire mobs. Problem was people who weren't using meta AoEs had to run away from Miramulor/Boltace slide macro or stomach their game transformed into walking simulator. I played little since update so I don't yet know how exactly Miramulor/Boltace look now so feel free to correct me if Miramulor/Boltace macro spam are still as strong as they were. On paper they shouldn't be as good as they were but you never knwo until you actually use them and I sold both my Boltace and Simulor quite some time ago so I have no way to check it myself.

As for events, yeah, I agree. I miss tactical alerts and events. They are way too rare now.

For devs' activity, I can't really tell a thing. Never really cared about it but for me  they always seemed to fulfil their vision of Warframe, rarely changing something because community wanted it. Most of stuff we get from them feels like a PR talk. A good one but PR anyway. I don't recall a single time someone important commented at feedback thread itself, regardless of amount of voices involved.

[Blink.Ensu]

19 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

snip

You missed the heart of the issue completely. Having brokenly powerful items in a PVE co-op DOESNT MATTER at all.

 

As for mind numbing rng grinds to get prime parts ... how exactly has that changed except that now you just described the whole fecking game. No exclusivity. Nothing special. The birthplace of space ninja magic is only good for argon crystals? Seriously ... that's it. The xp was nerfed. The primes arent there anymore and you dont need keys to go there. Yes I can still kill friends for lolz but wtf else do I get to advance myself or teammates WHILE doing that? zilch, nada, bupkis, squat, zero, NOTHING.

You claim we lost the meta grindiness of the void ... no we didnt. We lost all reason to do any mission of difficulty or length and thereby lost the 'excuse' for a meta ... and now we hear the excuse of meta being used to nerf when the fact is ... META DOESNT MATTER. You choose meta it IS a choice. I rarely used it. I usually found a way to not be meta and I was almost always successful. Meta in Warframe is meaningless and always has been. Dont like the idea of excal on Draco? Take a crush Mag (still works) or Saryn (still works) or Banshee(improved) or Limbo (improved) wanna kill Draco? go to Akkad instead or get a group that can actually coordinate Berehynia (sp?) Meta is a moving target and there will ALWAYS be something considered 'meta'. Who cares? 

Hit meta with the nerf bat instead of using meta as an excuse to nerf things. Why are you so stuck on this idea of meta killing diversity? Never did to me or my clanmates or a large majority of the community. Tonkor was boring. Simulor was boring. Boltace was cheese. People used them to get through a quick farm, sure but they werent where the fun is. Nerfing them just tics people off who now have to go forma up another farm easy weapon/frame. It will ultimately change nothing.

[Iccotak]

This are all little things. We should be pushing for the big picture. To flesh out the game. With voiced NPCs, a large variety of side quests, more unique tilesets, enemies with tactical variety, Fix archwing, More mission types, unique bosses, 

I get annoyed it when I hear fans ask for a new solar system because the current one is not finished yet. FINISH Fleshing out the other planets.

One of the points of the new map  system is that it spaces out story content depending on level, you have to unlock gates before you can do second dream or war within. They plan to eventually have the whole story paced through the solar system. 

The game is incomplete. No matter how you slice it. Even if you were using a Skana

This is why I have been saying that DE should take a break on making new warframes and weapons (exept Primes) and focus on the rest of the game. We have nearly 40 frames and hundreds of weapons. We don't need any more at the moment. Fix the currently exisitng stuff like Oberon

[Slaviar]

On 25.03.2017 at 6:59 PM, Blink.Ensu said:

You missed the heart of the issue completely. Having brokenly powerful items in a PVE co-op DOESNT MATTER at all.

 

As for mind numbing rng grinds to get prime parts ... how exactly has that changed except that now you just described the whole fecking game. No exclusivity. Nothing special. The birthplace of space ninja magic is only good for argon crystals? Seriously ... that's it. The xp was nerfed. The primes arent there anymore and you dont need keys to go there. Yes I can still kill friends for lolz but wtf else do I get to advance myself or teammates WHILE doing that? zilch, nada, bupkis, squat, zero, NOTHING.

You claim we lost the meta grindiness of the void ... no we didnt. We lost all reason to do any mission of difficulty or length and thereby lost the 'excuse' for a meta ... and now we hear the excuse of meta being used to nerf when the fact is ... META DOESNT MATTER. You choose meta it IS a choice. I rarely used it. I usually found a way to not be meta and I was almost always successful. Meta in Warframe is meaningless and always has been. Dont like the idea of excal on Draco? Take a crush Mag (still works) or Saryn (still works) or Banshee(improved) or Limbo (improved) wanna kill Draco? go to Akkad instead or get a group that can actually coordinate Berehynia (sp?) Meta is a moving target and there will ALWAYS be something considered 'meta'. Who cares? 

Hit meta with the nerf bat instead of using meta as an excuse to nerf things. Why are you so stuck on this idea of meta killing diversity? Never did to me or my clanmates or a large majority of the community. Tonkor was boring. Simulor was boring. Boltace was cheese. People used them to get through a quick farm, sure but they werent where the fun is. Nerfing them just tics people off who now have to go forma up another farm easy weapon/frame. It will ultimately change nothing.

Removal of old Void proved there is no endgame. But at least farming prime parts got significantly easier and more varied than just one tile and one faction at same few missions.

Meta does matter when it affects how people play. Like it or not, miramulor made every mission into walking simulator, even at sortie levels. Only way to be safe from it was to not play public- which is lame, considering it's supposed to be co-op game.

Removal of Draco was curing symptoms, not solving issue, which is slow lvling.

[Blink.Ensu]

9 hours ago, Slaviar said:

Removal of old Void proved there is no endgame. But at least farming prime parts got significantly easier and more varied than just one tile and one faction at same few missions.

Meta does matter when it affects how people play. Like it or not, miramulor made every mission into walking simulator, even at sortie levels. Only way to be safe from it was to not play public- which is lame, considering it's supposed to be co-op game.

Removal of Draco was curing symptoms, not solving issue, which is slow lvling.

lol yeah its obvious you have no clue what I am even talking about. Meta is in your head. Simulor was not sortie sweeping lvl 100 mobs let alone higher ... even with Mirage. Furthermore, even with parkour skills and high power strength/duration she isn't anywhere near a tank. A miramulor, as you call it, was a streetsweeper easily replaced by saryn/mag/frost/limbo/oberron etc etc etc all wielding nothing but their swinging syandanas. Mirage and simulor combo at least needed some investment. Next you'll be complaining about ice chroma's wielding amprex ... they can at least tank.

All that is well and good though ... that's the fecking game. It's been the game since day one. It has never been about snipers or shooters it's always been about slaying massive amounts of mobs .. they havent improved or changed that frame of mind by lowering drop rates for everything while nerfing the commonly used mass murdering weaps/combos.

Back to my original point, moving the prime parts out of the void didnt change the grind it put it on steroids. It made endless missions useless. It made the void cheap and expendable. All while making it MORE annoyingly grindy to get prime parts. You cant even get the appropriate relics until release. Then you have to open them NM having the traces on hand to upgrade your chances. Removing the keys was bad. Moving the primes out of the void was bad. It changed the feeling and the playability of the game. There were and are better ways to alter the RNG without that level of destruction. Many of which were covered in this very thread topic both before and since.

All of the above altered the social dynamics of this game to an extent that makes it largely unwelcoming to those who find it to be a social outlet and more susceptible to the meta horse ... not less. You can see that in the tone of the community and the tone of the vocal majority. WF is getting less and less helpful and more filled with bad attitudes every day. The elitism is real endgame or not.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Blink.Ensu

[Slaviar]

4 hours ago, Blink.Ensu said:

lol yeah its obvious you have no clue what I am even talking about. Meta is in your head. Simulor was not sortie sweeping lvl 100 mobs let alone higher ... even with Mirage. Furthermore, even with parkour skills and high power strength/duration she isn't anywhere near a tank. A miramulor, as you call it, was a streetsweeper easily replaced by saryn/mag/frost/limbo/oberron etc etc etc all wielding nothing but their swinging syandanas. Mirage and simulor combo at least needed some investment. Next you'll be complaining about ice chroma's wielding amprex ... they can at least tank.

Erm, nope. Mirage+Simulor murdered everything at sorties. Don't pretend she didn't.

Maybe I will complain about ice Chroma Amprex. Maybe I won't. We'll see.

4 hours ago, Blink.Ensu said:

All that is well and good though ... that's the fecking game. It's been the game since day one. It has never been about snipers or shooters it's always been about slaying massive amounts of mobs ..

I assure you, you can slay massive amount of mobs without AoE. For example you can take Frost, Vectis, use augmented Ice Wave and headshot entire horde in few seconds.

4 hours ago, Blink.Ensu said:

they havent improved or changed that frame of mind by lowering drop rates for everything while nerfing the commonly used mass murdering weaps/combos.

When was drop % of anything lowered?

4 hours ago, Blink.Ensu said:

Back to my original point, moving the prime parts out of the void didnt change the grind it put it on steroids. It made endless missions useless. It made the void cheap and expendable. All while making it MORE annoyingly grindy to get prime parts. You cant even get the appropriate relics until release. Then you have to open them NM having the traces on hand to upgrade your chances. Removing the keys was bad. Moving the primes out of the void was bad. It changed the feeling and the playability of the game. There were and are better ways to alter the RNG without that level of destruction. Many of which were covered in this very thread topic both before and since.

All of the above altered the social dynamics of this game to an extent that makes it largely unwelcoming to those who find it to be a social outlet and more susceptible to the meta horse ... not less. You can see that in the tone of the community and the tone of the vocal majority. WF is getting less and less helpful and more filled with bad attitudes every day. The elitism is real endgame or not.

You can farm medallions and when new Prime is out buy massive amount of relic packs. I got at least one of most new relics and I didn't even have stacks of medallions, I only had high standing with four syndicates. If I had more time I'd likely already have all three new toys but I only farmed Helios so far. Didn't take much time. I also farmed all primes from Nekros and Valkyr Prime Access within one-two week from release. Prime farming was objectively made easier.
Traces allow you to increase drop % of rare items to 10% so it's almost twice as much as your average rare at old Void.

You gave no reason why relics are bad, you are just saying you and your friends don't like these changes because there is no reason to do Void and long endless. Well, sorry, but I myself was sick of Void, especially Void Defence and Survival. And I doubt I was only one.

[chuckdm]

On 3/25/2017 at 9:58 AM, Iccotak said:

Except they are still making more features to flesh out the game.

"Feature-complete" does not mean "they are finished adding new features."  It means "the game now possesses all the features that a game in its genre must have in order to qualify as that type of game."  All the features being added to Warframe for the last several months (I'd say everything since U17, actually) are window dressing.  They may be "features" but if you took them all off, you'd still have a fully functional third person shooter.

Try not quoting people out of context.  Sometimes they come back and make you look stupid for it ;)

------------

As for what Slaviar and others have said here: Yes, Mirage + Synoid Simulor would routinely wipe sorties.  This would not occur unless it was a Corpus sortie, but I've witnessed it myself a dozen times, which is telling since I've run less than 30 sorties since they launched (banging my head against lv80 enemies isn't my definition of fun, but fighting enemies without broken armor scaling or a dozen Ancient auras does help).

That said, the argument that "having a squad mate with OP weapons is okay because the game is co-op" is just like your argument that old void was more fun than the new relic system - your idea of "fun" here seems to be derived from farming the maximum amount of loot as quickly as possible.  Have you ever been the EV Trinity in a Peacemaker Mesa Draco run?  Or worse yet, the Greedy Pull Mag in that scenario?  I've been both, and it is NOT FUN.  I don't know how anyone could even accidentally describe that as "fun."  It was certainly the fastest way to rack up affinity for a time, but damn dude, it was ZERO FUN.  I'd rather take another 20 minutes to re-level my weapon and actually ENJOY playing a bit.

And there's nothing enjoyable about watching someone ELSE walk around and clear the room before I even get a chance to aim.  Again, is that good for loot?  Sure.  But it's no FUN.  For someone who wants the "fun" of rad proc team kills back, (how the hell was that ever fun either?!) you're fighting a measure designed specifically to bring that very fun back really, really hard.

[Hayabusa97]

1 hour ago, chuckdm said:

"Feature-complete" does not mean "they are finished adding new features."  It means "the game now possesses all the features that a game in its genre must have in order to qualify as that type of game."  All the features being added to Warframe for the last several months (I'd say everything since U17, actually) are window dressing.  They may be "features" but if you took them all off, you'd still have a fully functional third person shooter.

Try not quoting people out of context.  Sometimes they come back and make you look stupid for it ;)

------------

As for what Slaviar and others have said here: Yes, Mirage + Synoid Simulor would routinely wipe sorties.  This would not occur unless it was a Corpus sortie, but I've witnessed it myself a dozen times, which is telling since I've run less than 30 sorties since they launched (banging my head against lv80 enemies isn't my definition of fun, but fighting enemies without broken armor scaling or a dozen Ancient auras does help).

That said, the argument that "having a squad mate with OP weapons is okay because the game is co-op" is just like your argument that old void was more fun than the new relic system - your idea of "fun" here seems to be derived from farming the maximum amount of loot as quickly as possible.  Have you ever been the EV Trinity in a Peacemaker Mesa Draco run?  Or worse yet, the Greedy Pull Mag in that scenario?  I've been both, and it is NOT FUN.  I don't know how anyone could even accidentally describe that as "fun."  It was certainly the fastest way to rack up affinity for a time, but damn dude, it was ZERO FUN.  I'd rather take another 20 minutes to re-level my weapon and actually ENJOY playing a bit.

And there's nothing enjoyable about watching someone ELSE walk around and clear the room before I even get a chance to aim.  Again, is that good for loot?  Sure.  But it's no FUN.  For someone who wants the "fun" of rad proc team kills back, (how the hell was that ever fun either?!) you're fighting a measure designed specifically to bring that very fun back really, really hard.

TL;DR: Fun is very subjective. Some find doing 2 hour missions fun, some find mass slaughter fun, and some find playing with the new Captura mode fun.

Personally, the Simulor and the Tonkor had it coming and ,honestly, I think the nerfs were a minor part of U20, especially compared to the QOL changes (especially to clans), the Limbo rework, the Clan rank thing, the new Warframe, the two new weapons, and Captura mode for extra fashion stuff.

[Blink.Ensu]

15 hours ago, Slaviar said:

Erm, nope. Mirage+Simulor murdered everything at sorties. Don't pretend she didn't.

Maybe I will complain about ice Chroma Amprex. Maybe I won't. We'll see.

I assure you, you can slay massive amount of mobs without AoE. For example you can take Frost, Vectis, use augmented Ice Wave and headshot entire horde in few seconds.

Exactly my point and you are still wrong about Mirage and simulor but keep on beating that drum ...

15 hours ago, Slaviar said:

When was drop % of anything lowered?

Right after when Glenn was testing .. they also altered the spawn rates and locations so people couldnt spawn all the mobs at the end of exterminates and changed the way survival life support was dropped. It was all changed around the same time and I even tested it myself with similar methods to Glenn (main reason why my most used frame is ember). It dropped from 1 mod per 10 kills to 1 mod in over 25 with resources similarly altered (numbers are ballpark). That is a drop rate that was cut more then half. Numbers for consumables and ammo were unchanged while mods and resources changed. The amount that stayed in missions before disappearing remained unchanged but it took twice the time to get to that point.

I have done extensive testing on that taking up solo and co-op missions in order to find the best ways to farm things for clan give aways. I used to live on the deception grineer shipyard tile where you insert the briefcase for just that reason. There are other tiles now but the drop rates are so despicable it isnt worth what it used to be. Not even while watching youtube videos and running into/out of a corner to overcome the afk timer.

15 hours ago, Slaviar said:

You can farm medallions and when new Prime is out buy massive amount of relic packs. I got at least one of most new relics and I didn't even have stacks of medallions, I only had high standing with four syndicates. If I had more time I'd likely already have all three new toys but I only farmed Helios so far. Didn't take much time. I also farmed all primes from Nekros and Valkyr Prime Access within one-two week from release. Prime farming was objectively made easier.
Traces allow you to increase drop % of rare items to 10% so it's almost twice as much as your average rare at old Void.

You gave no reason why relics are bad, you are just saying you and your friends don't like these changes because there is no reason to do Void and long endless. Well, sorry, but I myself was sick of Void, especially Void Defence and Survival. And I doubt I was only one.

You seriously have no idea how screwed the relic system is compared to keys? You clearly dont understand how limiting it is in just terms of plain unadulterated math what the RNG changes are with the relics. You want to spent 20k standing a pop and blow it on a fraction of a chance of getting the relics you need? Even with 4 max factions at 120k each that is 6 per ... lets say you need a specific AXI relic that gives you 24 chances (a layer of RNG that wasnt there before) at just getting the relic. You used to be able to collect hundreds of keys that guaranteed tower access. Then the chances of the relics dropping what you need is another layer of RNG, one which actually existed before. I dont trust the upgrading of relics with void traces btw the numbers dont support the upgrade system being worthwhile. It's similar to snake oil salesmen selling cold medicine promising you a shorter cold or a potion that brings puberty on earlier. There's no facts but they gather your money all the same.

There isnt even a semblance of an opinion in that. It's straight up math. Primes used to be done the day of by those prepared. You want proof you can understand? Watch the prices for prime sets. You used to see a drop within a week sometimes even days. Now prime prices remain over inflated for 6 weeks after a prime gets released. I used to farm an entire prime pack on day one or two and move on to forma (on the rare occasion when I didnt just buy the max prime access). Then I would farm extra and do clan giveaways for those that couldnt join me for the key burns.

With endless mission keys I could get more than 1 part for a single key if we got lucky. 0 chance of that with relics.

 

Again, you have proved you dont understand a thing and just want to defend blindly without a single fact to back up your claim. You even offer anecdotal evidence refuting my facts with things that actually prove my point. Meta is in your head. There's always another meta around the corner. Cheapening the void to the point of worthless and installing the relic system are harmful. Again I have clear and justified mathematic proof of all of this. My experience leading a community of hundreds of players in Chaos Vanguard first as Dues Ex Tempus then in our own standalone clan and now as Verucas Illusion my staff and I have seen recruitment and membership drop off precipitously over the past year. /shrug ignore my fact based observations all you want. I'll just move on to a different game.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Blink.Ensu

[Blink.Ensu]

8 hours ago, chuckdm said:

snip

Did anyone force you to play the meta? Were you forced to EV trin? or mag pull? I never was and rarely did it. I could stand my saryn in a closet on draco (both pre and post rework) with energy tabs and solo a draco Now I can do similar on Berehynia with multiple frames from banshee sound quake to mag cruch. I can bring in 3 clanmates that need to level things up and be maxed by round 3. I choose to do it to help friends who are on a time crunch. I preferred to do T1 laser defense to level things up before they nerfed the void xp. There's always another meta. Always. Nerf away. You will never see the end of it and kill the game in the meantime.

You can choose to not do meta and until you played a T1L with us while farming you have no idea why we found it fun ... maybe because you lack imagination or sense of compatriots laughing at each other on teamspeak/discord, whatever. We had fun with it for hours on end because of the people we did it with. You may not understand but it's no reason to bash it. I wouldnt recommend doing it now ... as there's nothing to gain from the mission. Failing is an option and it's no fun flirting with disaster when there's nothing to lose.

The whole game has become an endless time sink lacking flavor or substance. It's a shame really. All these players are against being forced to do meta and fail to realize that is exactly what the game is forcing through nerfs and system changes.

good luck

[Slaviar]

13 minutes ago, Blink.Ensu said:

Exactly my point and you are still wrong about Mirage and simulor but keep on beating that drum ...

Spoiler

 

 

Lvl 98 mobs. All dead in seconds. Even deadlier in narrow corridors. So be so kind and stop spreading lies.

21 minutes ago, Blink.Ensu said:

Right after when Glenn was testing .. they also altered the spawn rates and locations so people couldnt spawn all the mobs at the end of exterminates and changed the way survival life support was dropped. It was all changed around the same time and I even tested it myself with similar methods to Glenn (main reason why my most used frame is ember). It dropped from 1 mod per 10 kills to 1 mod in over 25 with resources similarly altered (numbers are ballpark). That is a drop rate that was cut more then half. Numbers for consumables and ammo were unchanged while mods and resources changed. The amount that stayed in missions before disappearing remained unchanged but it took twice the time to get to that point.

I have done extensive testing on that taking up solo and co-op missions in order to find the best ways to farm things for clan give aways. I used to live on the deception grineer shipyard tile where you insert the briefcase for just that reason. There are other tiles now but the drop rates are so despicable it isnt worth what it used to be. Not even while watching youtube videos and running into/out of a corner to overcome the afk timer.

And when was that? I don't remember any nerfs to any drops recently. Though it definitely sounds like something DE would do.

And LS drops? Seriously? You have trouble with that? I'm pretty sure what they changed was fixing client related bug with LS drop or something because I recall survivals became much easier solo.

Exterminate change, I wouldn't care (means no opinion on that topic- fine either way) if it was not for an issue of one mob not spawning or spawning at unreachable spot. Issue only recently fixed.

26 minutes ago, Blink.Ensu said:

You seriously have no idea how screwed the relic system is compared to keys? You clearly dont understand how limiting it is in just terms of plain unadulterated math what the RNG changes are with the relics. You want to spent 20k standing a pop and blow it on a fraction of a chance of getting the relics you need? Even with 4 max factions at 120k each that is 6 per ... lets say you need a specific AXI relic that gives you 24 chances (a layer of RNG that wasnt there before) at just getting the relic. You used to be able to collect hundreds of keys that guaranteed tower access. Then the chances of the relics dropping what you need is another layer of RNG, one which actually existed before. I dont trust the upgrading of relics with void traces btw the numbers dont support the upgrade system being worthwhile. It's similar to snake oil salesmen selling cold medicine promising you a shorter cold or a potion that brings puberty on earlier. There's no facts but they gather your money all the same.

There isnt even a semblance of an opinion in that. It's straight up math. Primes used to be done the day of by those prepared. You want proof you can understand? Watch the prices for prime sets. You used to see a drop within a week sometimes even days. Now prime prices remain over inflated for 6 weeks after a prime gets released. I used to farm an entire prime pack on day one or two and move on to forma. Then I would farm extra and do clan giveaways for those that couldnt join me for the key burns.

With endless mission keys I could get more than 1 part for a single key if we got lucky. 0 chance of that with relics.

SYNDICATE. MEDALLIONS. You can gather 16-24 per day per syndicate so let's say 20 is an average. Prime Access is out every 90 days or so. It's 1800 medallions. For ONE SYNDICATE and most people seem to run three. Even in worst case scenario of all being common (which is impossible) it's 900k standing. Again, for just ONE syndicate. 45 relic packs. For just ONE syndicate. It makes it 135 relic packs from three syndicates. You'd need Donald Duck's bad luck to not get multiple copies of all new relics from that.

'The numbers'. I always hear about numbers.

I wonder if you your sample is bigger than your failure to acquire that one prime part. Because from what I've seen, from talks with my friends and from what I've seen on forums, people with chronic radiant share bad luck are in minority.

Keys weren't always in your inventory. You farmed them. Every last one of them.

But you know what, I will actually make a little analysis for you.

Most if not all Axi relics have ~10% drop chance at rotations B&C of Interception and average public int run lasts for 15-20 minutes. It means it should take around 8 runs to get relic you want. I don't recall how exactly probability of that is calculated so it may be different number but is definitely lower than 10.
Let's assume average time of 17 minutes to finish int. 17*8=136 minutes. 2h 16mins to get relic.

Now trace farm. Average trace drop is, from what I've seen, 15-20. Average capture/ext is around 4 mins. Should take average of 7 runs to get 100 traces. 28 mins to get traces.

Now radshare. Radshare can last as short as other relic runs- 4 mins. Using average numbers it takes less than 3h to farm relic and traces and run radshare. Multiply it by 3 (average amount of radshares needed) and it takes less than 8h 30mins to get item. In casual play. In rush setup at specific locations (for example Kuva Fortress defence- it's my friend's main farming spot. He takes resonating Banshee and EV. I never go there because it's boring as F*** for me, especially with that setup) may take as short as 10 minutes and rushed short mission can easily take less than 4 minutes.

At old Void there was 5% probability of getting item I want at C. It meant average of 18 rotations to get an item. Means 6 mission hours of survival. Mission hours alone, add to it recruitment and farming keys (may be shocking for you but not everyone farmed key farming spots extensively) and it's likely to take almost as much. And unlike relics, you can only choose where you farm keys. If mission you want to do is survival, it means 20 mins for rotation C. No exceptions. With other endless, it usually depends on squad. Never measured how much casual defence takes but definitely feels more than a minute per wave.

I also can't really measure void key farming. Don't recall how drops looked and which nodes were best.

Multiple parts per key can go to hell. Most of drops were trash. Good ol' Lex Prime BP at all three Cs... Great times. Not. Oh, and cells, formas and cores. Glorious.

There are two very important reasons I prefer relics over keys- I can choose where I farm and against whom. I'm not confined to the gilded halls of Void, fighting faction made of reskinned units of other factions at same few missions- because every Prime Access something rare showed up at T3Surv or T4D.

Is relic system perfect? Hell no! Could it use improvements? Hell yes! But it's way more player friendly than key system and it redistribute grind over multiple tasks, making it easier to stomach.

And coincidentally, there is little point in being in larger clans. It was further proven by Hema. Me and my friend had little problem finding 7 more players for our ghost clan. Because what is your point in "recruitment has dropped?" It's obvious, DE neglected clans for ages. We didn't even have event which really required clan participation since... False Profit? I think it was first event which changed trophy requirement.

1 hour ago, Blink.Ensu said:

There isnt even a semblance of an opinion in that. It's straight up math. Primes used to be done the day of by those prepared. You want proof you can understand? Watch the prices for prime sets. You used to see a drop within a week sometimes even days. Now prime prices remain over inflated for 6 weeks after a prime gets released. I used to farm an entire prime pack on day one or two and move on to forma. Then I would farm extra and do clan giveaways for those that couldnt join me for the key burns.

Alright. I want to underline this. I have no idea what trade chat are you watching but definitely not same one as me. Just few days ago I've seen someone sell rare parts of Banshee Prime for 60p. And today it's exactly one month since release. All I've seen suggest fairly quick price drops, much shorter than before. And what's more, there are no more Loki Prime system, parts which cost a lot for months after release. Barring vaulted parts but well, these always reached absurd prices.

Unlike you, I actually provided proofs. Here is proof of meta negatively affecting players:

July 7, 2016. Literally a day before end of keys.

These guys didn't want to do 2-3 rotations of T3Surv without meta camp team. One even claimed after 20 mins it's game over. All is on the pics.

It proves meta isn't in my head, as you said it. It's there and it affected my experience negatively.

As it seems your idea of game is watching YT videos and chatting on Discord while pressing few buttons repeatedly. Well, no wonder you are enjoying Warframe less and less because devs actually started to eradicate this kind of gameplay. One of few good things they did.

Video games are for playing. Social interaction is a bonus. Even in co-op multiplayer game. If I want to socialise I call my friends and we go to the bar.

And because you used ad hominem, namely here: 

2 hours ago, Blink.Ensu said:

You want proof you can understand?

I'm ending my involvement in this topic.

[Hayabusa97]

This S#&$ is seriously still going on? I'd thought this thread would be dead by now.

[chuckdm]

On 3/27/2017 at 6:22 PM, Blink.Ensu said:

Did anyone force you to play the meta? Were you forced to EV trin? or mag pull? I never was and rarely did it. I could stand my saryn in a closet on draco (both pre and post rework) with energy tabs and solo a draco Now I can do similar on Berehynia with multiple frames from banshee sound quake to mag cruch. I can bring in 3 clanmates that need to level things up and be maxed by round 3. I choose to do it to help friends who are on a time crunch. I preferred to do T1 laser defense to level things up before they nerfed the void xp. There's always another meta. Always. Nerf away. You will never see the end of it and kill the game in the meantime.

You can choose to not do meta and until you played a T1L with us while farming you have no idea why we found it fun ... maybe because you lack imagination or sense of compatriots laughing at each other on teamspeak/discord, whatever. We had fun with it for hours on end because of the people we did it with. You may not understand but it's no reason to bash it. I wouldnt recommend doing it now ... as there's nothing to gain from the mission. Failing is an option and it's no fun flirting with disaster when there's nothing to lose.

-snip-

good luck

Did anyone force me to play the meta?  Obviously nobody is forcing me to play anything.  That's not generally what people who hold other people at gunpoint have in mind.  That said, where did the meta come into this discussion?  The examples I gave weren't examples of any "meta" but rather examples of how extremely boring the game gets when you aren't able to contribute to actually shooting the enemies.  Just like the Simulor and Tonkor and Telos Boltace have made every third mission I've run for the last 4-8 months.  I have absolutely no doubt that something else will replace them as the "new meta" but my issue with them was never that they were the meta.  My issue as that when one player has ANYTHING - a weapon, a skill, whatever - that wipes out entire rooms instantly, it greatly diminishes the participation of the remainder of the squad, such that they're either relegated to utility roles - Greedy Pull, EV Trin, Desecrate Nekros, etc - or they're simply unable to do anything at all besides run behind the guy who is singlehandedly clearing the entire map.  Whether that guy is doing so with the current meta, an exploit, or he's just blessed by the Lotus as a god among ninjas doesn't matter.  The mere fact that nobody else can line up shots or target abilities and actually contribute to the mission before he has already completed his genocide-in-a-can is reason enough to nerf the living hell out of whatever he's doing.

I run low-level missions all the time.  I've spent probably 150 T1D keys, only maybe 10-15 of them actually trying to find a part, and run almost as many Lith missions in the same map since the Relic system was implemented.  I enjoy lower-level missions because there's something satisfying about just relaxing and racking up the kill count in fun and novel ways.  I solo'd a T1D with Limbo and a Vectis Prime for 40 waves.  Minimum range Cataclysm with the augment and just snipe enemies when they enter the bubble.  It was a crazy fun time, even if it took me almost an hour and was generally an incredibly inefficient way to run the mission.  I understand running lower-level missions for the sake of fun.  I don't understand how trolling your friends is ever fun, but then idk, maybe my friends just have a different sense of humor than yours.  I was never bashing your means of having fun.  All I said was, as stated above, if one of your friends had god powers and could wipe the whole map 1 second after the enemies spawned so that none of the rest of you ever got to shoot anything at all, you'd find that annoying.  The fact that this is happening on a T1D or a Star Chart mission, like Venus or Saturn, just makes it even more egregious because these crazy-OP weapons were never needed to kill anything there.  In Sorties, they made some sense, but everywhere below that, they were just extremely annoying to be in a PUG with.

[Xaero]

On 25.03.2017 at 9:59 PM, Blink.Ensu said:

You missed the heart of the issue completely. Having brokenly powerful items in a PVE co-op DOESNT MATTER at all.

To those who love doing nothing in missions maybe.

BTW the problem is not their power but the effort you need to use it effectively. If a weapon able to obliterate everything around you requires pressing one button without even aiming, there is a problem. Simulor had that problem. Now it doesn't while it also became more powerful than before.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Ksaero