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Regarding disruption of "co-op" gameplay


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It's a bit of a problem when you're a fully-modded-up late-game frame playing in an early-game level mission.  It's quite embarrassing actually, and it must be frustrating for other, newer players, who've still got only a few half-filled mods, to just have almost no part in killing anything.  There needs to be some sort of "scaling" of weapon/ability strength - but then the game is level-less in a way, so it's going to be hard implementing that.

To compare and contrast, City of Heroes (which did have a levelling system, granted, so it was relatively easier to implement) had the sidekick/mentor system, where a higher level player could play in a team with low level players, but their abilities were scaled down somewhat, so they were more on a level with the other players (similarly, a sidekick was buffed up to play with higher level players).  There was still some differential because of the equivalent of "mods" in that game, which gave the higher level player still a bit of an advantage, and made a sidekick slightly underpowered because he didn't have them yet, but it wasn't like a fully-modded-up Ember playing on a mob-level 14 map with a bunch of newbies who get like 4% each.  That's actually pretty terrible.  It's nothing to do with the e-peen, it's simply a matter of feeling that the game is pointless because you're not contributing to the mission.  

Unless it's actually what you want, being "carried" is no fun at all.

Edited by Omnimorph
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6 minutes ago, Omnimorph said:

It's a bit of a problem when you're a fully-modded-up late-game frame playing in an early-game level mission.  It's quite embarrassing actually, and it must be frustrating for other, newer players, who've still got only a few half-filled mods, to just have almost no part in killing anything.  There needs to be some sort of "scaling" of weapon/ability strength - but then the game is level-less in a way, so it's going to be hard implementing that.

To compare and contrast, City of Heroes (which did have a levelling system, granted, so it was relatively easier to implement) had the sidekick/mentor system, where a higher level player could play in a team with low level players, but their abilities were scaled down somewhat, so they were more on a level with the other players (similarly, a sidekick was buffed up to play with higher level players).  There was still some differential because of the equivalent of "mods" in that game, which gave the higher level player still a bit of an advantage, and made a sidekick slightly underpowered because he didn't have them yet, but it wasn't like a fully-modded-up Ember playing on a mob-level 14 map with a bunch of newbies who get like 4% each.  That's actually pretty terrible.  It's nothing to do with the e-peen, it's simply a matter of feeling that the game is pointless because you're not contributing to the mission.  

Unless it's actually what you want, being "carried" is no fun at all.

That solution is in your own hands at this very moment.

It's called don't be a $&*^ and go and speed run the map nuking everything off the face of the universe.

Just slow your roll to their pace, don't kick on those now OP powers and enjoy being a helpful older player.

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Just now, SilvaDreams said:

That solution is in your own hands at this very moment.

It's called don't be a $&*^ and go and speed run the map nuking everything off the face of the universe.

Just slow your roll to their pace, don't kick on those now OP powers and enjoy being a helpful older player.

Oh I should say that that's generally what I do, in fact I tend to switch out to lower powered weapons that I'm forma-ing up for lower level missions and I tend to be sparing with the big nukes.  I was using "you" figuratively, as in "one" - i.e. trying to break it to the S#&$s gently :)

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8 minutes ago, Omnimorph said:

Oh I should say that that's generally what I do, in fact I tend to switch out to lower powered weapons that I'm forma-ing up for lower level missions and I tend to be sparing with the big nukes.  I was using "you" figuratively, as in "one" - i.e. trying to break it to the S#&$s gently :)

Same I tend to carry a weapon I'm working on, or I just hold back till they seem to be struggling... 

That or just not bring said Op frame and break out my favorite newbie guardian.

18C336BD14251F73BB948DEDE319C0FE4289453D

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I was thinking maybe in something like exterminates where the kill objective is shared amongst everyone that perhaps that could be an idependant count for everyone that scales with mastery limit and perhaps more spawns on the map to compensate for that. I know that sounds a lot like solo play, but perhaps affinity could still count when other players get kills too?

I know that could possibly irk some players who are indifferent to the whole team aspect of things where they normally just rush the map to get things done fast, but it's just a thought, even if it's a bad idea it's still bringing the issue to the forefront instead of just bashing someone that doesn't agree with the whole leave your team behind and kill everything first mentality.

Edited by (XB1)ITDeveloping
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Being carried isn't fun, no, but it also isn't damaging, either.

Nobody is judging you for the percentages you're pulling in a PUG mission because the reality is: nobody else cares. Honestly I think it would do no harm to remove the damage taken and damage dealt percentages because they're frankly worthless. Unless somebody is actually trying to compete with squadmates - which is generally not the case in these styles of game because you're working co-operatively as a team rather than competitively - nobody gives a rat's arse about who did the most damage.

The numbers are skewed, anyway. I can take Trinity onto a mission and pull 0% damage taken and, if I take an efficient weapon set up, 50% or more damage done depending on who I'm squadding with. What does this actually prove? Well, it proves that I'm playing Trinity. Who is very, very good at taking no damage. Because that is what Trinity's kit lets her do. It also proves I probably took something like Tigress or whatever, which deals stupid numbers of damage even at high level, and has the capability to deal disgusting oneshots to anything lower than level 50/60 depending on how it is set up.

So, while being carried isn't fun, that's partly because it's easy to feel like one of those other three players is staring at your meagre damage dealt percent or your high damage taken percent and going "Oh man, what a bad player, damn." The reality of the situation, however, is actually that most of those players are not even thinking about those numbers. They're looking at the items they got from the mission, they're thinking about what items they might still need to get, they're groaning that their relics gave them trash garbage they don't need. Whatever. 

Kill count is not important in Warframe. And especially in a lower level mission, that R30 multiple-forma'd Ember is just going to turn on WoF and murder everything because it's efficient, not because they're trying to pad stats. So, no. No, I don't think Ember does need a nerf, because her WoF has decent synergy at higher levels and isn't just destroying whatever it explodes on. I main Saryn and she is much the same when I play her for ultimate spore popping. In lower level missions, not only does this spread her spores across every tile I could want to spread them on in very few seconds, but the spores are also generally powerful enough to murder what they land on. This means I come out of missions with stupid "damage dealt" percentage and kill rate, even when the reality is that I just pressed one, pressed three and then mashed E for a while until all those juicy numbers were plastered all over my screen and I could go do whatever I wanted, be it destroy every crate for some mindless farming or run to extraction. Whatever.

For the record, accusing people of having a "leave your time behind and kill everything first mentality" isn't strictly true because the actual mentality is "I need to do this mission multiple times, therefore I'd like to try and do each individual run of it as fast as possible". Which isn't an unfair mentality to have: if you need to run a mission on average 200 times to achieve an item, and each of those missions takes one minute longer than it could potentially take because you purposefully gimp yourself for the sake of the potential new player or more casual player, then that's 200 extra minutes.

Do I think that a bit of compromise could be had? Probably. As a casual player, I like to trapse around and smash crates and press E on cabinets and be a loot hound, and find the challenge rooms and do the little mini puzzles and sometimes I also don't feel like holding shift forever so I don't even always sprint through my missions. But I also recognise that if I do that, I'm costing somebody else their time too, and I'd be better being a more casual and slower player with groups of my friends who are like-minded, or doing it on my own when I'm not holding anybody back.

 

TL;DR - this is literally why clans exist. Find a clan with like-minded players for the best results when playing Warframe.

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Warframe's a mess. They had to start somewhere, given the size of the arsenal its unreasonable to think that DE would have the capacity to balance everything in the game in a single update. They've chosen to address the issue in parts, which I feel is a reasonable approach.

That said, the warframes, secondaries and melee weapons all need a balance pass. The ember in particular needs urgently to be reworked to make her less idiot-pandering at lower levels and scale better with higher levels. In addition, there are other frames that trivialise content, sound-quake banshees, spore saryns and so on.

Secondary and melee weapons are likely next on the list, the most glaring examples of secondaries that need a balance pass is the Sonicor, and for melee weapons: the whip weapons.

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3 minutes ago, Airyllish said:

Unless somebody is actually trying to compete with squadmates - which is generally not the case in these styles of game because you're working co-operatively as a team rather than competitively - nobody gives a rat's arse about who did the most damage.

I agree with a lot of what you say and I dont want to feel like im nitpicking at your post, but in missions that aren't necessarily farmable like extetminate alerts, I can see how speed running could be feasible, but you also can't really call it "cooperatively playing" if upon loading into the mission a frame like Ember immediately starts rushing ahead with no chance of catching up. That's not very cooperative teamplay at all.

Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should be able to play this game in a way that fits their playstyle, but I also feel that certain playstyles promotes a certain toxicity towards certain frames and promotes totally disregarding your squad in general.

I'm generally not for nerfs in a pve game, just to be clear.

I've only been playing since November, have 600+ hours racked up so far and I generally prefer to play in pugs because I genuinely enjoy playing with different people and I'm fully aware that I would run into the speed runners. I mostly just ignore it, but it gets under my skin sometimes.

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3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ITDeveloping said:

I generally prefer to play in pugs because I genuinely enjoy playing with different people and I'm fully aware that I would run into the speed runners. I mostly just ignore it, but it gets under my skin sometimes.

You recognised this in your OP as well; although I'm not going to tell you to "get over it", it is unreasonable to expect that everyone in a random squad of players will want to run the mission in the same style as you do.

If you want a particular type of experience while running your missions, then grouping with clan mates or using recruiting chat to find like-minded players is definitely the best way to go.

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2 hours ago, (Xbox One)ITDeveloping said:

 but you also can't really call it "cooperatively playing" if upon loading into the mission a frame like Ember immediately starts rushing ahead with no chance of catching up. That's not very cooperative teamplay at all.

The thing is, I can call it that if the main goal of the squad is to finish the mission and achieve the reward.

While we all have mission types we prefer more than others, and can accuse some of being more grind-heavy or grind-focused (such as the endless missions) than other mission types, players do not often play a mission type because it is that mission type. They play that mission because the reward on offer, be that a drop they can get from an enemy that spawns in that mission type to a resource that drops in that node. 

The main goal is not "ensuring everybody gets a chance to shoot at an enemy". The main goal is not "ensuring nobody gets left behind". The main goal is "we want to get X reward". And, for a lot of players, you sometimes need to play that one mission multiple times before you either have enough of the resource, or before you get the specific reward. By extension, this also means that these players are going to want to complete these missions as fast as possible, because they have to repeat them a lot. It's also safe to assume that the majority of players that go PUGing do it for the very same reason: that they want to finish the mission as fast as possible in order to obtain a reward of some form. 

Again: you get best results playing Warframe if you make an active effort to find like-minded people to play with.

Accusing players of being uncooperative because they did not conform to your style of play and let you get the number of Grineer or Corpus murders you wanted to obtain is ostensibly unfair, because you yourself are neglecting to address your own lack of conformity to the overarching style of Warframe players as a majority. And I'd like to remind you at this point that I'm saying this as somebody who prefers to take Warframe a little bit slower, who prefers to go open things and who doesn't always sprint through every generated tile, and who does stand around to admire the design of tiles I find particularly enjoyable. I'm such a casual player that I make an effort to avoid ever going PUG because I know, for a fact, that I would be in the minority of players and me adding an extra two or three minutes to somebody's mission clear time just because I feel they "go too fast" is about as unfair as it would be to claim they aren't taking me into account.

Therefore, I play Warframe with my friends. I play with people who either have the same style of play as me, or I play with people who don't have the same style of play but who don't mind if I take longer than they do to reach extraction. The best part of this is that quite often when I play with people in this style, despite being so casual, I manage to pull of equal or better stats than they do. On a survival mission together with a friend, we had two completely different loadouts: I went on a R27 Nidus with a R10 Latron Prime, no secondary and a R15 Kronen that I was ranking a second time for the pure purpose of making Boltace. My friend took a full R30 set Frost / Zarr / Ninkondi and he never touched his secondary weapon so who cares, and once we'd finished the mission I had managed to out-damage him and take less damage than him. This is despite being on a frame that had literally no shield to speak of.

Which is also why I say those percentages at the end don't matter. And nobody is looking to see if they carried you or if they didn't. They just want to get their farm on in a PUG, get their items and go back to their Orbiter to make things. 

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Yeah, I get that, I do, but apparently this seemingly nonexistent problem was important enough for DE to change weapons that were meta because of, but not limited to, the same thing i'm getting at in my original post. Some of it was abuse of mechanics and some of it was due to the sheer dps of a weapon, that again, left other players just sitting there without a target to shoot at.

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The nerf to Tonkor was, frankly, needed. 

The nerf to Telos Boltace was done to basically stop macro abuse - and is something I don't agree with. It could have been an easy fix if they had added something like an internal timer, which would have made macro abuse to spam the slide attack as many times as possible useless. I believe they did something like this with Excalibro's Radial Blind so that people couldn't just spam it to the point of it making every mission asinine. 

Simulor itself I don't think was that broken either - unless it was used by Mirage. That was considerably strong enough that it was effectively it's own build

The nerfs were not done to "promote cooperation" or "promote teamplay". They were actually done to either try and balance a genuinely broken weapon - Tonkor in this case - or it was a thinly veiled excuse to try and stamp out a weapon that was only out of balance in very specific instances (macro abuse / broken synergy with one specific frame.) DE has been historically terrible at balancing their game, and this instance is no different: we have band-aid fixes that don't ultimately fix what the core of the problem was (Simulor gaining some impressive power when used in conjunction with Mirage / Telos Boltace becoming horrifically strong when used in conjunction with AHK script abuse to effectively create never-ending slide attacks with wide area radius and guaranteed slash proc.) These problems still potentially exist - an otherwise good weapon becomes too good when used with Mirage if the synergy is right. A good weapon with an interesting mechanic becomes too good and, by extension, somewhat abusive in online play when set to a macro that allows players to use the mechanic more than would be naturally possible without AHK script. There is the potential for these problems to happen with different weapons in the future due to either issue.

And then they, too, would be hit with a band-aid nerfbat under the guise of creating toxic play for everybody else.

So... yeah. Your focusing a lot on the excuse that DE gave but it doesn't seem like you fundamentally understand the actual reasonings behind those nerfs.

Nobody is going to be setting up a macro with Ember and her WoF to instagib everything that's level 40 or up while spamming your screen with particle effects and lagging out your game. If they did, it wouldn't be the fact they kill everything before you do that makes you upset, it would be the fact they lagged out your gamehurt your eyes and actually threatened to make it unplayable

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7 hours ago, (Xbox One)ITDeveloping said:

Forget it. These forums are more cancerous than region chat..and you totally missed the point of "co-op" disruption being a thing touted by DE themselves as to why some weapons are getting nerfed/reworked.

so just cus people disagree with you it makes them cancerous? ember starts falling off in damage in more harder planets of the starchart, let alone taking into harder runs. yeah sure shes op at low levels, but what isnt op in low levels? if you want to not feel carried do endless runs. non endless missions dont have much of a say in balance.

7 hours ago, --RV--D4VE- said:

I don't see your point in this topic, like rly nerf Ember? Sad to say she is bs already. Why not nerf Valkyr? Id start with that :) 

No one ever said, that kills should be equal for everyone is that what you mean by not disrupting coop? 

Also if you don't wanna see certain behaviours there's always option to play solo.

valkyr doesnt need nerf, and kills shouldnt be decided on who has the cheesier loadout.

ember doesnt need a nerf, but your points are even more stupid.

@Airyllish yeah but that wouldnt stop that weapon from clearing rooms at pretty much any level of the game. now it has cc, which scales better than damage mind you.

Edited by Zeclem
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I made the cancerous remark because people can't ever seem to have a polite discussion without belittling someone or calling them names or tell them they are just a whiner because they want to offer some personal feedback. Seems to be the norm anymore. That's why my post count is so low, because it's off-putting to want to utilize the forums to offer feedback when you see how awful some people choose to talk each other.

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You don't need to be #1 in the mission results numbers to be the most helpful player. Frost, nova, trinity, vauban, etc can be essential for the situation. And many other frames can make everyone's game more enjoyable.

Edited by Murkar
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they are lot ppl good at game...on low level dosent matter witch wepon u use but wen u fight.. lvl 250 anients.. u will wish all dmg u can get...wepons like simulor was not be healthy for game.. they nerf it ..its just been broken

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So you are saying you want to stay longer in a nitain alert mission that everybody wanna finish asap and get out by trying to share kill among everyone?

Goal of any alert mission = finish asap and get out. I hate people who try to make mission longer than it has to be. I sometimes see a guy who open every locker/crates possible and make 3 other people wait at the extraction.

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You do realise that there is a genuine problem when a weapon can compete and beat out a Warframe's ultimate and scale better, in terms of AoE killing potential?

Because that's what these weapons were doing.

You take anything lategame into starter missions and it will wipe the floor. It's a fact in any game with progression. That's not what gets these nerfed.

What gets these nerfed is when they promote abusive playtyles, like you could see with the TB macros and the tonkor/simulor spammers.

A Tigris Prime is a massive boomstick, but it has a limit and a cap based on player response in terms of how much it can kill in a given duration. It has quirks like its small mag to help check it's power. You see what it would be like to remove these when you get the corrupted buffs-ever tried out a full auto tigris with no mag and no reload?

It's not a problem in a game like wf if weapons get powerful and outstrip others. It becomes a problem when they start doing that in such exponential ways that it starts disrupting the coop environment.

 

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Ember is problematic

 

but she doesn't need a "nerf".

 

she needs a shift. Right now her function is early game. then her lategame is trash. why would anyone care about using firequake as an augment when there are warframes unaugmented that provide much safer and wider cc effects?

 

it's the same issue another warframe had. this warframe was basically unstoppable against one faction, but complete trash against the others. The one faction she could literally oneshot with a single button press, killing every single enemy unit instantly. and then against the other factions she was deadweight and that power literally did nothing against them. I trust my fellow readers to probably know which warframe I'm talking about. Technically "balanced" because har har 50% winrate cause theirs like only 2 factions in the game but the coin-flip of a balance made this warframe terrible gameplaywise.

and Ember suffers from the same thing, except instead of a flip of faction, it's a measure of enemy level. What she needs a shift to less oppressive early game powers and better lategame scaling.

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Was gonna go on a paragraph or 2 writing......but it just does not matter. What a lot of people in here that are of the mindset that "the mission got done....who cares if you didn't do anything" see as okay are missing the COOPERATION part of CO-OP. The fact that you "have" to bring your topped out gear to a mission you KNOW you will finish in moments by yourself shows that you are not in a CO-OP mindset from the start. Your MEMEMEMEMEMEMEME mind is just thinking about yourselves so of course you see nothing wrong with turning on WoF and running through the mission....even though there are 1-3 others also loading into the same mission. If you did this on SOLO or FRIENDS INVITE....knock yourself out. Doing it in PUBLIC and then complaining about the others not being at extraction like you are is a selfish thing to do. The game supports it and that is the reason the players do it- its in the game.

Keep playing your way and keep the selfish attitude as well. Nothing can be done about the players and the whole community just has to accept that as being the way it is.

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you're not gonna like what I have to say OP, but unfortunately for you, the truth hurts like a bish:

while you might not consider "go solo" as an appropriate response, it's actually the best course you can take. you can't force people to use non-meta frames and play the way you want to paly, and this is the dice roll you take when you go public. when I pug, I immediately prepare for the worst case scenario: 3 bad players with no communication, underpowered gear and no strategy beyond "shoot things". sometimes you get good lobbies, sometimes terrible ones. it's a coin toss really.

and as others have pointed out, during some missions, particularly alerts and Sorties, people just want the reward: if they could get it WITHOUT committing mass murder at shockingly high speed, they would, but enemies have to die in order to get rewards, and lotus DGAF who does it. if some hardcore Meta-head with Mirage and a Synoid Simulor wants to do all the work for me, I say let them get on with it, because I still get the same rewards that he will after he's got 99% of the kills.

I really don't get why people care about K/Ds and other irrelevant statistics, it's about fun, and if you're not having fun, then maybe you should go and play a different game.

 

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10 minutes ago, (Xbox One)DShinShoryuken said:

Doing it in PUBLIC and then complaining about the others not being at extraction like you are is a selfish thing to do. The game supports it and that is the reason the players do it- its in the game.

Slowing the mission down by opening every box and exploring every corner isn't COOPERATING with the other players who want the mission to be finished efficiently either.

Neither complaint is valid in a public mission, as long as no one is griefing you or afk leeching, it's working as intended.

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7 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Slowing the mission down by opening every box and exploring every corner isn't COOPERATING with the other players who want the mission to be finished efficiently either.

Neither complaint is valid in a public mission, as long as no one is griefing you or afk leeching, it's working as intended.

It is if you killed everything and left them nothing else to do- your version of COOPERATING was kill everything...so theirs might have changed from getting their challenge done to checking everywhere til the timer runs out. With the attitude that you can kill everything when there are others in the same mission means the other players have to try and get whatever they were aiming for done before you kill all the enemies OR they have to just get to the exit and get to another mission to retry again with the HOPE that there is not another kill all player in there.

In a public mission, people get tired of asking someone "Hey, could you leave some for us?". They have gotten time and time again the "I play how i want" reply over and over.....so they stop asking. Players get tired of attempting to play the game so they just rush to the exit with the "all killer" since they got Mods that can become ENDO/CREDITS or that one mod they were after finally dropped. So they do not just Abort the mission- they just get to extraction to get out of the mission without exploring like they may have wanted to. The more this happens, the more players stop trying to do what the game has in it as well besides killing all and getting a reward as fast as possible- EXPLORING. What reason do you think they put in Syndicate medallions and AYATAN and RARE CONTAINERS and Easter Eggs?  To get players to look around.

and that word EFFICIENTLY.....that is another can of worms I am not gonna talk about in here.

 

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