Regarding disruption of "co-op" gameplay

[jfhsanseiIII]

19 hours ago, Reifnir said:

So let me get this straight...

You joined a low-level public match, where a random player with an Ember did a lion's share of work for which ALL of you got credit, but since they did not do it according to your preferences you want Ember nerfed? Is it just me, or there's about 0,0 ounces of logic in this?

I could understand such whining if Warframe was a competitive PvE game. You know, so that only the players who dealt the most damage received the loot, or top scores in mission result screen meant 2 Nitain extracts instead of one. But there's no such thing. Essentially, you're whining because someone has orange mission result numbers and you don't. Moreover, you're whining after bringing a frame devoid of ANY AoE abilities, with no AoE weapons to what was likely a mission to quickly kill a lot of weak enemies. What exactly were you expecting?

Saying that Ember needs to be nerfed considering the above is like saying that spoon needs to be nerfed because it's better suited for eating soup than a fork. How about I give you an equally brilliant idea - start complaining about Frost, because casting a Frost globe undermines your heroic attempts to shield a cryopod from enemy fire with your warframe. 

The comment ignores the actual problem by attempting to argue that it's more efficient.  If one thing minimizes the effort to do something to near zero then that's not winning. It's bringing a Ferrari to help you in the Boston Marathon.  I'm all for players who can wreck a game with their favorite frame and weapon.  When that item(s) reduces the effort actually needed to wreck it down to a button push while watching Netflix then there's a problem.  There's no 'my way' of playing argument. That would make it the -only- way to play if you wish to be at a comparable level.   

[SharkPot]

Wait.

This was a co-op game?

I thought main point of this game was to be as cancerous as possible while in pug?

And only care about teammates if you actually knew them. Cause afaik a waframe players logic is: if I don't know that person I don't care about that person.

[Volinus7]

Co-op aspect of this game is even weaker than Mario Party lol.

[Reifnir]

2 hours ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

There's no 'my way' of playing argument. That would make it the -only- way to play if you wish to be at a comparable level.   

Again.

Purpose of a typical mission: To kill enemies. Quickly and efficiently. Period.

Everything else, including but not limited to: Allowing every squad member, no matter how badly their equipment is suited for this to score some kills, making sure not to kill more than one enemy per shot, teabagging every corpse while typing "lol pwned" or using nothing but unmodded Skanas and MK-1 Bratons is your personal preference. 

3 hours ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

It's bringing a Ferrari to help you in the Boston Marathon.

So instead you bring a skateboard to a Formula 1 race and complain that you're not among the top five, immediately proceeding to demand that race cars should be banned from the race. 

 

3 hours ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

When that item(s) reduces the effort actually needed to wreck it down to a button push while watching Netflix then there's a problem.

And I'm pretty sure there is a problem of low-level content being unavoidable for well-geared players. There's no other way of getting those Nitains from alerts or Mutagen Masses/Fieldrons from Invasions. Imagine that after hitting level cap in an MMO every other available quest required you to go and kill level 1 boars/spiders in a starter zone to acquire relevant rewards. Because this is pretty much what Warframe does. 

[BenDown]

I love when I get an Ember in my team doing all the work, because I can just relax and run along with her towards extraction.

[jfhsanseiIII]

12 hours ago, Reifnir said:

Again.

Purpose of a typical mission: To kill enemies. Quickly and efficiently. Period.

Everything else, including but not limited to: Allowing every squad member, no matter how badly their equipment is suited for this to score some kills, making sure not to kill more than one enemy per shot, teabagging every corpse while typing "lol pwned" or using nothing but unmodded Skanas and MK-1 Bratons is your personal preference.

Ignoring my argument and then creating a new argument that I never intended is again silly.  I agree that the goal is to do so efficiently.  I agree that we should use all our tools to achieve that goal.  However, having something that removes all need for any tools, limits the necessary input from players, and reduces the experience to a visual experience alone does not create a good experience.  I can't tell if your missing the point, or cognitive dissonance is preventing you from seeing it.

 

12 hours ago, Reifnir said:

And I'm pretty sure there is a problem of low-level content being unavoidable for well-geared players. There's no other way of getting those Nitains from alerts or Mutagen Masses/Fieldrons from Invasions. Imagine that after hitting level cap in an MMO every other available quest required you to go and kill level 1 boars/spiders in a starter zone to acquire relevant rewards. Because this is pretty much what Warframe does. 

Then perhaps this speaks to a -different- problem that requires a -different- discussion.   

[Ailissa]

On 25/03/2017 at 9:28 PM, (Xbox One)ITDeveloping said:

Forget it. These forums are more cancerous than region chat..and you totally missed the point of "co-op" disruption being a thing touted by DE themselves as to why some weapons are getting nerfed/reworked.

The only person I see being "cancerous" here is you.

 

People are disagreeing with you and you are getting salty about it.

[Reifnir]

 

1 hour ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

Then perhaps this speaks to a -different- problem that requires a -different- discussion.   

If you seriously think that these issues are separate I'm practically at a loss of trying to explain anything to you. 

I'll use my favorite example here, that being Diablo 3. 

A decently geared and leveled character of pretty much any class eventually grows powerful enough to kill every enemy on screen just by standing there. Passive damage auras simply wipe out everything in mere seconds, if not faster. Horrifying, right? With one small, but all-important detail - that can only happen when a character geared for Torment X difficulty or above enters a Torment I game. If you happen to be a host of that game all your gameplay will consist of walking around and picking up loot. 

And yet, not a single D3 player is whining and asking for nerfs. No one is crying like someone just put their beloved puppies through a meat grinder left them with nothing to do. No one. Because unlike Warframe, in Diablo 3 a geared player has no reason (unless asked for help) to enter lower difficulties at all. In fact, it's the opposite - everyone is trying with all their might to leave the starter difficulties behind and concentrate on tackling harder and more rewarding challenges.

All your whining stems from one simple reason: your beloved trivial content is mandatory for both newbies and veterans alike. And nerfing frames and weapons will achieve nothing except annoying the hell out of players who actually like playing them. 

The worst part? DE themselves have proven time and time again they are more likely to listen to whiners than address the root of the problem which is lack of content designed with endgame-ready weapons and frames in mind. Despite everything, they're trying to turn Warframe into something it will never be - a balanced tactical shooter where every enemy needs individual approach when it has long since turned into a Diablo-like horde slaying game.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Reifnir

[jfhsanseiIII]

 

1 hour ago, Reifnir said:

 

If you seriously think that these issues are separate I'm practically at a loss of trying to explain anything to you. 

I'll use my favorite example here, that being Diablo 3. 

A decently geared and leveled character of pretty much any class eventually grows powerful enough to kill every enemy on screen just by standing there. Passive damage auras simply wipe out everything in mere seconds, if not faster. Horrifying, right? With one small, but all-important detail - that can only happen when a character geared for Torment X difficulty or above enters a Torment I game. If you happen to be a host of that game all your gameplay will consist of walking around and picking up loot. 

And yet, not a single D3 player is whining and asking for nerfs. No one is crying like someone just put their beloved puppies through a meat grinder left them with nothing to do. No one. Because unlike Warframe, in Diablo 3 a geared player has no reason (unless asked for help) to enter lower difficulties at all. In fact, it's the opposite - everyone is trying with all their might to leave the starter difficulties behind and concentrate on tackling harder and more rewarding challenges.

All your whining stems from one simple reason: your beloved trivial content is mandatory for both newbies and veterans alike. And nerfing frames and weapons will achieve nothing except annoying the hell out of players who actually like playing them. 

The worst part? DE themselves have proven time and time again they are more likely to listen to whiners than address the root of the problem which is lack of content designed with endgame-ready weapons and frames in mind. Despite everything, they're trying to turn Warframe into something it will never be - a balanced tactical shooter where every enemy needs individual approach when it has long since turned into a Diablo-like horde slaying game.

 

 

Still you ignore what I'm saying and creating a completely different argument that suits your point.  You're arguing that it's low level content that's a waste of time for getting items.  That is true.  I agree with that sentiment.  That is something that needs to be addressed.  However, that isn't what I am talking about here.  For someone complaining about my lack of reading comprehension you sure do have your own to deal with.  I feel I might be wasting more space on thread saying the same thing a third or fourth time but here it goes.  Abilities, regardless of where you go, that remove the level of player input required down to near zero do not create an engaging and/or fun experience. It is a run, gun, slash, and ability game.  If you can do just the later and eliminate the need for anything else why would you play anything but that.  Yes.  There is a problem with how resource gathering is done for well geared players. Yes. There is a need for solutions that help both novice and experienced players find fun challenging ways to do necessary things in game.  However, that does not negate the fact that some abilities do have a tendency to detract from gameplay for a group.

Edited March 28, 2017 by jfhsanseiIII

[ChuckMaverick]

8 minutes ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

Still you ignore what I'm saying and creating a completely different argument that suits your point.  You're arguing that it's low level content that's a waste of time for getting items.  That is true.  I agree with that sentiment.  That us something that needs to be addressed.  However, that isn't what I am talking about here.  For someone complaining about my lack of reading comprehension you sure do have your own to deal with here.  I feel I might be wasting more space on thread saying the same thing a third or forth time but here it goes.  Abilities, regardless of where you go, that remove the level of player input required down to near zero do not create an engaging and/or fun experience. It is a run, gun, slash, and ability game.  If you can do just the later and eliminate the need for anything else why would you play anything but that.  Yes.  There is a problem with how resource gathering is done for well geared frames. Yes. There is a need for solutions that help both novice and experienced players.  However, that does not negate the fact that some abilities do have a tendency to detract from gameplay for a group.

The two issues are related.

Without all the power that veteran players have in terms of multi-forma'd frames, max ranked primed and corrupted mods, etc. the ez-mode doesn't exist.

If a new player tried to run a WoF Ember without Fleeting Expertise and Primed Continuity to counter the energy drain, or without Overextended to increase the range, it wouldn't be anywhere near as devastating and they'd be constantly out of energy and unable to use it.

It's only because veterans with their much more powerful loadouts are required to go back to low level content to do nitain alerts and the like that you see this clash of playstyles in such an extreme fashion.

[jfhsanseiIII]

2 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

The two issues are related.

Without all the power that veteran players have in terms of multi-forma'd frames, max ranked primed and corrupted mods, etc. the ez-mode doesn't exist.

If a new player tried to run a WoF Ember without Fleeting Expertise and Primed Continuity to counter the energy drain, or without Overextended to increase the range, it wouldn't be anywhere near as devastating and they'd be constantly out of energy and unable to use it.

It's only because veterans with their much more powerful loadouts are required to go back to low level content to do nitain alerts and the like that you see this clash of playstyles in such an extreme fashion.

Something I more or less addressed in my post.  However, I don't see many low ranked players having a hard time getting the mods to make a decent WoF build that allows them to do what you believe they cannot.  It doesn't take that much to farm/buy the necessary mods to do it. 

My point isn't about fewer engaging opportunities, though I do admit it's a problem, for experienced and well geared players.  Something I think DE could address by creating more challenging gameplay modes with slightly better rewards.  Sorties are a good start but I think they could do a nitain alert with an additional thousand Endo bonus for a mission with stronger enemies for experienced players.  Like high level Kuva missions.  

That still doesn't adress the problem of having a loadout or frame ability that reduces the danger to near insignificance and allows other players to simply sit back and watch as it all burns. 

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

That still doesn't adress the problem of having a loadout or frame ability that reduces the danger to near insignificance and allows other players to simply sit back and watch as it all burns.

But those loadouts only reduce the danger to near insignificance in the less challenging content.

Take that WoF Ember into a sortie and you'll likely have a bad day, even with the Firequake augment you're still at significant risk and no longer killing anything with your '4' alone.

[Reifnir]

1 hour ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

Abilities, regardless of where you go, that remove the level of player input required down to near zero do not create an engaging and/or fun experience. It is a run, gun, slash, and ability game.

You don't get to make abilities (or, let's be frank, WoF) into a scapegoat and pretend that nothing else that can "ruin" your day by serving you rewards on a platter exists.

You can place a Zenistar disk modded with a Primed Reach on top of a cryopod and go watch TV while any enemy that approaches it dies. 

A Xiphos turret (or even several) can be placed in low-level missions to a very similar end.

A player with a Firestorm-modded launcher can blow entire squads of enemies up before any semi-auto guns have a chance to aim, much less fire.

Anyone with a long-reach melee (whips, glaives etc) and spam attack killing stuff through doors and vaults. 

Any beam weapon with Combustion Beam can melt crowds of low-level enemies. Fit in on Amprex and watch everything die. Acid Shells Sobek can do this to low-to-mid ones and Vulcan Blitz Jat Kitty can pull this off in friggin Sorties given a high enough combo multiplier and/or stealth. Without even taking any damage in case of frames that can block/avoid damage or become invisible, too - and the list goes on. Should DE nerf all this into the ground as well because it "trivializes" your brand of gameplay? 

40 minutes ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

That still doesn't adress the problem of having a loadout or frame ability that reduces the danger to near insignificance and allows other players to simply sit back and watch as it all burns. 

And now I must ask - what do YOU consider a "significant" danger so that taking Ember into equation makes it insignificant?

Simple comparison: Level 6 enemies on Earth die to WoF in under a second (single hit). Level 126 enemies in Sortie 3 can take WoF damage in such ridiculous amounts that it's barely viable as a crowd control skill. Let's say you want to save level 6 enemies from becoming "insignificant" and employ ungodly amounts of tears and snot to make DE nerf WoF so that it requires a line of sight. Oh, wait, now you just completely killed any remaining viability Ember had past the trivial starchart content... Whoopsie. What you're asking is to cripple everything that seems "too powerful" to you. Wake up call: vast majority of frames and weapons can be made ridiculously powerful given enough resources and right mods, especially when used in trivial missions. 

Warframe has a plethora of problems. Enemy armor/damage scaling past level 100, cheesy enemies and equally cheesy means of dealing with them, lack of endgame... But low-level enemies dying to AoE abilities/weapons is most definitely NOT one of them. 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by Reifnir

[jfhsanseiIII]

3 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

But those loadouts only reduce the danger to near insignificance in the less challenging content.

Take that WoF Ember into a sortie and you'll likely have a bad day, even with the Firequake augment you're still at significant risk and no longer killing anything with your '4' alone.

Yes.  You are correct.  However, that addresses a different problem.  How enemy scaling works.  Power creep is a different discussion in my opinion.  It's a good discussion to be had, but doesn't really fall under the discussion of the thread. However, late content like endless after an hour or sorties are the content I enjoy playing.  

[ChuckMaverick]

3 minutes ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

Yes.  You are correct.  However, that addresses a different problem.  How enemy scaling works.  Power creep is a different discussion in my opinion.  It's a good discussion to be had, but doesn't really fall under the discussion of the thread. However, late content like endless after an hour or sorties are the content I enjoy playing.  

They are all aspects of the same problem, which is "how do you give players appropriate challenges and rewards at any given point in their progression through the game?"

Symptoms like WoF Embers steamrolling low level content are just the results of getting that balance wrong.

[jfhsanseiIII]

2 hours ago, Reifnir said:

You don't get to make abilities (or, let's be frank, WoF) into a scapegoat and pretend that nothing else that can "ruin" your day by serving you rewards on a platter exists.

You can place a Zenistar disk modded with a Primed Reach on top of a cryopod and go watch TV while any enemy that approaches it dies. 

A Xiphos turret (or even several) can be placed in low-level missions to a very similar end.

A player with a Firestorm-modded launcher can blow entire squads of enemies up before any semi-auto guns have a chance to aim, much less fire.

Anyone with a long-reach melee (whips, glaives etc) and spam attack killing stuff through doors and vaults. 

Any beam weapon with Combustion Beam can melt crowds of low-level enemies. Fit in on Amprex and watch everything die. Acid Shells Sobek can do this to low-to-mid ones and Vulcan Blitz Jat Kitty can pull this off in friggin Sorties given a high enough combo multiplier and/or stealth. Without even taking any damage in case of frames that can block/avoid damage or become invisible, too - and the list goes on. Should DE nerf all this into the ground as well because it "trivializes" your brand of gameplay? 

One significant difference being all of those, minus the Zenistar, require consistant input from the player.  You have to aim a sobek, walk up to enemies with a jat kittag, find a crowd to use your Amprex.  You're still ignoring my point in its entirety and bringing up something else.  Yes those items/mods certainly simplify things, but still require consistent input from the player. Things like old Simulor, WoF, and Spores to a certain degree.

 

2 hours ago, Reifnir said:

Let's say you want to save level 6 enemies from becoming "insignificant" and employ ungodly amounts of tears and snot to make DE nerf WoF so that it requires a line of sight. Oh, wait, now you just completely killed any remaining viability Ember had past the trivial starchart content... Whoopsie.

After rereading this comment I see no point in discussing the matter with you any further.  If you're unwilling to carry on a civil conversation regarding a difference of opinions then I see no point in conversing with you any further.  Any solid point you may have had has been reduced to nothing based on this.  

[RedDirtTrooper]

This is not a cover shooter. It's a player vs horde game in the vein of Dynasty Warriors. Third person ninja space magic Diablo. Of course any player with good equipment is going massacre hordes of low level enemies. That's what those powers are designed to do. That's why the affinity for all of their kills gets duplicated for every other member of the team who stays close to them. Because who does the killing isn't supposed to be as important as the fact that huge masses of bad guys die. All I really get from the OP is a convoluted way of saying "I don't like the genre of this game I'm playing, so it should be turned in to something else." Also, shutting down all valid forms of criticism with a list of expected replies just shows that you have no real response to those criticisms. It in no way invalidates them, and you should be ashamed of the intellectual laziness it displays.

Edited March 29, 2017 by RedDirtTrooper

[jfhsanseiIII]

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

They are all aspects of the same problem, which is "how do you give players appropriate challenges and rewards at any given point in their progression through the game?"

Symptoms like WoF Embers steamrolling low level content are just the results of getting that balance wrong.

Yea to be sure.  I think there are creative ways to look at frames and weapons, and approaches to content that can make the game fun challenging and rewarding.  I just think a different thread may be more appropriate for discussing rewards and higher level content.  They aren't exclusive from one another but neither are they the same discussion.  Perhaps it's best we discuss them at the and time perhaps not.  I'm just tired of being called salty because my opinion differs from others.  

[Reifnir]

4 hours ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

If you're unwilling to carry on a civil conversation regarding a difference of opinions then I see no point in conversing with you any further.  Any solid point you may have had has been reduced to nothing based on this.  

Civil conversation implies that both parties have some credibility. Right now your claim is around the level of someone stating that elevators in skyscrapers are spawns of Satan and need to be dismantled because you love climbing stairs and don't give a rat's arse about people who have business above the 1st floor, and the moment someone points out how absurd it is you start foaming that you're not being shown proper respect. That's not an "opinion", that's blind zealotry. 

Edited March 29, 2017 by Reifnir

[jfhsanseiIII]

11 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

Civil conversation implies that both parties have some credibility. Right now your claim is around the level of someone stating that elevators in skyscrapers are spawns of Satan and need to be dismantled because you love climbing stairs and don't give a rat's arse about people who have business above the 1st floor, and the moment someone points out how absurd it is you start foaming that you're not being shown proper respect. That's not an "opinion", that's blind zealotry. 

thats a lovely metaphor.  Unfortunately it just proves my point that you've gone straight to salty vitriol, and have no real point to make anymore.  I hope your cognitive dissonance doesn't infect every aspect of your life. Good luck to you in all your endeavors. I wish you the best.

 

PS.  Zealotry doesn't mean what you think it means.  

[achromos]

On 3/28/2017 at 0:23 AM, jfhsanseiIII said:

The comment ignores the actual problem by attempting to argue that it's more efficient.  If one thing minimizes the effort to do something to near zero then that's not winning. It's bringing a Ferrari to help you in the Boston Marathon.  I'm all for players who can wreck a game with their favorite frame and weapon.  When that item(s) reduces the effort actually needed to wreck it down to a button push while watching Netflix then there's a problem.  There's no 'my way' of playing argument. That would make it the -only- way to play if you wish to be at a comparable level.   

The actual problem is that you are trying to push your agenda and not reading.  A low level mission... Dude, enemies melt like butter especially until they get up into the level 50 Range for ANY well built frame, I could take my Soma Prime, or Ignis and sweep the ground with them.  My Oberon could spam 4 all day and kill without trying for instance.  This isn't so much as bringing a Ferrari to the Boston Marathon as it is bringing a Olympic Track runner to a local town Jog.  People have earned those mods, those stats.  If DE was serious about Balancing for the lower levels then they should look into how some MMO's do it, AkA put stat limiters on lower level planets.

Seeing as they don't, then all I can say is don't blame the player for playing within the bounds of the game.  The issue isn't Ember, or the warframes so much as it is the mods not taking into account the ease of the mission as such it isn't the players responsibility to play nice especially in pugs, it's in the developers hands to go 'oh, hey... how do we best fix this without hurting either side?' and they are best suited for such a question either way.  Especially since I've seen suggestions that players have made that would reduce Warframe into CoD or a Clone of Destiny at best with stupid cool-downs.

Edited March 29, 2017 by achromos

[jfhsanseiIII]

5 minutes ago, achromos said:

The actual problem is that you are trying to push your agenda and not reading.  A low level mission... Dude, enemies melt like butter especially until they get up into the level 50 Range for ANY well built frame, I could take my Soma Prime, or Ignis and sweep the ground with them.  My Oberon could spam 4 all day and kill without trying for instance.  This isn't so much as bringing a Ferrari to the Boston Marathon as it is bringing a Olympic Track runner to a local town Jog.  People have earned those mods, those stats.  If DE was serious about Balancing for the lower levels then they should look into how some MMO's do it, AkA put stat limiters on lower level planets.

Seeing as they don't, then all I can say is don't blame the player for playing within the bounds of the game.  The issue isn't Ember, or the warframes so much as it is the mods not taking into account the ease of the mission as such it isn't the players responsibility to play nice especially in pugs, it's in the developers hands to go 'oh, hey... how do we best fix this without hurting either side?' and they are best suited for such a question either way.  Especially since I've seen suggestions that players have made that would reduce Warframe into CoD or a Clone of Destiny at best with stupid cool-downs.

It's not really an agenda.  What you've said is I think, in part, the point I've been trying to make.   You may have to read a bit more back than just the post you read to see that.  One point, If there's something that reduces the game to near zero input by the player that's not really good for the game.  The other point, there's a good argument for creating higher level missions with the same rewards plus a little extra for experienced players.  I've also seen arguments for bringing better geared players down for missions they run with lower geared players.  This one I'm on the fence because I'd like to know more about it.  It sounds good at first but without some details about how it would work exactly I can't really say if I would support it.  i don't really have an agenda except to point out where I think there're weaknesses in the games mechanics.  One being abilities that, I apologize for sounding like a broken record at this point, reduce player input to a single button click and reduce the ability of other players to interact in the game.   I could make a pretty hefty list of other things I think are a weakness, like what you pointed out, but I'm trying to stick to the thread's topic.