Jengerer Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Greetings Tenno! If you’ve kept up with some of [DE]Glen’s recent Developer Workshops, you may have heard of (and even kindly participated in) some of our attempts to isolate and investigate memory leaks that appeared to be related to Warframe’s PhysX Effects graphics feature. The conclusions from our distributed detective work was that NVIDIA drivers newer than version 373.06 were prone to leak large amounts of memory, causing performance problems and even crashes on some machines. Further investigation demonstrated that this behaviour wasn’t even specific to Warframe’s use of these effects, and may also occur with other game titles that use this feature. On top of this result, we’ve also learned that future releases of PhysX (which Warframe uses internally to perform our physics simulations) may no longer support the module that enables PhysX Effects. So while we’ve made NVIDIA aware of these issues and have sought to find a resolution in the nearer term, it’s possible that NVIDIA’s shifting focus onto other newer technologies may spell the end of PhysX Effects in Warframe in the future. As an immediate remedy for the sake of performance and stability, an upcoming hotfix will be disabling PhysX Effects on drivers newer than 373.06 until the issue is resolved. We remain hopeful that NVIDIA will continue to support PhysX Effects and are eager to work with them to find a way to work around the problems we're having. In the slightly more distant future, we’ll continue looking for other ways to be able to provide players with visual effects of the same high level of fidelity and interactivity that we’ve been able to achieve with the help of technology like this. Ideally, we’re able to provide every platform with the same dazzling visuals that we've all come to love about Warframe, and with the awesome work that Steve and the other brilliant minds here have done with our custom accelerated particles over the years, we hope to be able to do just that... because the PhysX effects on capture targets are a visual meal upon which all eyes should be allowed to feast. - [DE] Jengerer P.S. You may have run into me in game, but if not, I’m Evgenii (don’t worry about the pronunciation). I’ve been a programmer here at Digital Extremes for about 2 years, mainly working with the physics-related components of our engine. Hope to see you all around some time! April 7, 2017 Update: It seems the latest NVIDIA driver version 381.65 has fixed these leaks, so Update 20.1.1 should allow you to enable PhysX Effects if you're running this (or newer, in the future) driver versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rambit23Z Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I need my sparklies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthArbiter Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 What about Nvidia's Flex? Isn't that meant to replace PhysX? Will you guys be looking into using that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark5eiD Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 time to downgrade our drivers :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xion Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 This doesn't affect me since I run the game on a potato, but rip everyone else's eye-gasmic sparklies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myscho Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, TruthArbiter said: What about Nvidia's Flow? Isn't that meant to replace PhysX? Will you guys be looking into using that? Its Flex And sheeet, im running at 376.53. Looks like its time to say PhysX bye bye and remove it totally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthArbiter Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 1 minute ago, Myscho said: Its Flex And sheeet, im running at 376.53 Thanks I'll fix that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaginGoblin Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Dang it! i've recently changed my AMD GPU to a gtx1070 to get my sparky effects and then this happens... Thanks a lot Nvidia.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evanescent Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Muh sparklez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jengerer Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 26 minutes ago, TruthArbiter said: What about Nvidia's Flex? Isn't that meant to replace PhysX? Will you guys be looking into using that? Unfortunately, Flex is more of a spiritual successor than a direct replacement, so we can't just plug our existing effects into it and have it work auto-magically (or even recreate all of the effects the same way they are now). We've considered it as a possibility for the future, but it's not an immediate solution for these issues we're currently facing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 41 minutes ago, [DE]Jengerer said: With NVIDIA's PhysX on its way out, are there any plans for some physics implementation that works for both AMD and NVIDIA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reidmaster Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 18 minutes ago, Sean said: With NVIDIA's PhysX on its way out, are there any plans for some physics implementation that works for both AMD and NVIDIA? Yeah, (I would think) this would be the optimal solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 48 minutes ago, Reidmaster said: Yeah, (I would think) this would be the optimal solution. Hopefully, but with this talk of NVIDIA Flex being looked into for the future, it doesn't bode well for the AMD users like myself when added into the current track record of DE only talking about physics as if it were an NVIDIA-specific concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jengerer Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Sean said: Hopefully, but with this talk of NVIDIA Flex being looked into for the future, it doesn't bode well for the AMD users like myself when added into the current track record of DE only talking about physics as if it were an NVIDIA-specific concept. Cross-platform/vendor is definitely the ideal, but the core challenge is that the rest of Warframe's physics simulation is done through the PhysX physics engine. So things like PhysX Effects and Flex take care of a great deal of the work required to implement physically simulating particles on the GPU in a way that matches the internal structure and representation of the game's physical world. That's not to say that it's impossible to implement our own solution, but it's something that would need a good deal of effort and consideration and is something we'll be further looking into in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 10 minutes ago, [DE]Jengerer said: Cross-platform/vendor is definitely the ideal, but the core challenge is that the rest of Warframe's physics simulation is done through the PhysX physics engine. So things like PhysX Effects and Flex take care of a great deal of the work required to implement physically simulating particles on the GPU in a way that matches the internal structure and representation of the game's physical world. That's not to say that it's impossible to implement our own solution, but it's something that would need a good deal of effort and consideration and is something we'll be looking into in the future. While I can see the appeal in focusing on just getting the physics engine to be back up and running without PhysX as quickly as possible, it seems like it would be better to use this forced-oppurtunity of having to switch away from PhysX to not repeat the mistakes of the past by using something NVIDIA specific again. Once something is back up and running, the resources given to that area to improve it typically shrink considerably as at that point the thinking tends to be "it works well enough, so why bother" (I don't mean this as a "bash" on DE, just how things typically play out in a lot of companies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allenaattori Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 2 hours ago, RaginGoblin said: Dang it! i've recently changed my AMD GPU to a gtx1070 to get my sparky effects and then this happens... Thanks a lot Nvidia.... same here but a 1060 I was happy to finally try this Nvidia PhysX... 10 years old AMD user here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcl_Blue Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Eh, it's not like PhysX was doing anything anyway. I miss the old PhysX effects, those were awesome. What we have now is embarrassing compared to that. I'm honestly happy to see it go, because the sooner it does, the sooner we'll get its replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o.0- Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Huh, wonder what Nvidia is gonna do, and if there are other tools that can be used, if PhysX ends up being a no longer supported dead end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawbeard Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I did not have any issues, can I enabled the effects again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyriann Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Well learning that PhysX is probably going away is heart breaking, though it has already since the effects were toned down a lot in comparison to the beginning. I have a question which might sound completely stupid but... Aren't there somewhere on the web some open systems for physic that works with both AMD and Nvidia ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13QZXXTTX Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 In past online game like BF Online. they also had memory leak problem. Some simple solution involve using 3rd party program. If Nvidia is starting more graphic effect, then I hope it is for greater reason. @Digital Extreme! Please keep up to date, and be the leading edge in game innovations. Pst: I hear some VRMMO is in baby level, intersting time. DesFrSpace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightmareT12 Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I just disabled it the moment Steve said Nvidia would replace it. If I was going to lose them anyways, why bother with leaks? Thanks for the job done tracking this down guys. If I'm not mistaken the latest Warframe effects use a custom solution that works for all platforms right? If so, I hope the effects affected can be updated to those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 46 minutes ago, Cyriann said: I have a question which might sound completely stupid but... Aren't there somewhere on the web some open systems for physic that works with both AMD and Nvidia ? the big main feature that PhysX controlled particles have toted, is Realtime Particle Collision. it's pretty expensive to render, ergo why it's almost nonexistent in games. Particles are chump change nowadays, but having those thousands or tens of thousands of Particles collide with Entities and Terrain in realtime, is expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multicom-EN- Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 5 hours ago, [DE]Jengerer said: Greetings Tenno! If you’ve kept up with some of [DE]Glen’s recent Developer Workshops, you may have heard of (and even kindly participated in) some of our attempts to isolate and investigate memory leaks that appeared to be related to Warframe’s PhysX Effects graphics feature. The conclusions from our distributed detective work was that NVIDIA drivers newer than version 373.06 were prone to leak large amounts of memory, causing performance problems and even crashes on some machines. Further investigation demonstrated that this behaviour wasn’t even specific to Warframe’s use of these effects, and may also occur with other game titles that use this feature. On top of this result, we’ve also learned that future releases of PhysX (which Warframe uses internally to perform our physics simulations) may no longer support the module that enables PhysX Effects. So while we’ve made NVIDIA aware of these issues and have sought to find a resolution in the nearer term, it’s possible that NVIDIA’s shifting focus onto other newer technologies may spell the end of PhysX Effects in Warframe in the future. As an immediate remedy for the sake of performance and stability, an upcoming hotfix will be disabling PhysX Effects on drivers newer than 373.06 until the issue is resolved. We remain hopeful that NVIDIA will continue to support PhysX Effects and are eager to work with them to find a way to work around the problems we're having. In the slightly more distant future, we’ll continue looking for other ways to be able to provide players with visual effects of the same high level of fidelity and interactivity that we’ve been able to achieve with the help of technology like this. Ideally, we’re able to provide every platform with the same dazzling visuals that we've all come to love about Warframe, and with the awesome work that Steve and the other brilliant minds here have done with our custom accelerated particles over the years, we hope to be able to do just that... because the PhysX effects on capture targets are a visual meal upon which all eyes should be allowed to feast. - [DE] Jengerer P.S. You may have run into me in game, but if not, I’m Evgenii (don’t worry about the pronunciation). I’ve been a programmer here at Digital Extremes for about 2 years, mainly working with the physics-related components of our engine. Hope to see you all around some time! I don't really notice much performance drops. Any specific reason as to why it HAS to be disabled for everyone running a newer driver? Why not give us the option to turn it off and on? I for one am not downgrading drivers due to certain games requiring newer drivers in order to even launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mukade Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Well, now we're even, Nvidia and AMD. The recent TAA method made some physx particles look freaky, for example the infested blood that usually looks like orange goop now looked like glitter. Performance and stability are important, alright. Remember how stupid and over-the-top and intrusive the original physx was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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