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Make Daggers great again


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So, lets all be kinda honest here; Daggers are currently a bit trash. They're at best MR fodder or "stylish" weapons, and the only reason people use single daggers is Covert Lethality.  Dual daggers are shafted even more, because although they are arguably more useful in open combat due to attack speed, they lack covert lethality and thus end up being less useful except for situational times. 

Covert Lethality is a band-aid fix for the problem of single daggers. The general consensus I see here is "DE please remove Covert Lethality from Daggers and buff them so they're useful", or even occasionally "DE plz make Covert Lethality built-in to daggers so we have an extra mod slot." Both of those ideas have been tossed around for a long time now, and lets be honest, the situation with single daggers, at least, is probably not gonna be fixed anytime soon. At the earliest, it'll come whenever Damage 3.0 drops, which could be in a few years time. But at least for the moment, single daggers still have their place; as stealth weapons.

So, this is my little topic wondering how we could help out Dual Daggers to at LEAST make them usable for the most part and have a slot in the current gameplay as more than just a way to get your team mad at you for bringing them. Yeah, its a mod, and yeah, its another band-aid fix, but its probably more realistic than asking for a total rehaul of the dual/single daggers classes. Whereas single daggers have covert lethality, why not give Dual Daggers a singular mod to make them more useful? 

Mod Name - Focused Artistry
Ranks - 3
Polarity - Zenurik
Cost - 4-7
Dropped by - Stalker (Ultra-Rare), Alerts, Grineer Manic, Drekar Manic, randomized Baro Ki'Teer selling item.
Description - Allows normal attacks to stagger enemies, and open them up for a combat finisher, but causes your normal attacks to come out slower.
Under the hood - 10/15/20% increase to the chance for every dual-dagger attack to cause the targeted enemy to stagger and thus be left open to a finisher attack. However, it decreases attack speed by 5%/10%/15%. 


Unlike Covert Lethality, this mod does NOT add on any extra "instant-kill" mechanic or increased finisher damage, but instead it means that a dual-daggers user specializes in getting multiple finisher attacks as fast as possible. This allows the dual daggers a significant damage boost without giving it the ridiculous instant-kill gib of the single daggers. This means that on Sortie-tier missions and above, you're probably going to need multiple finishers to take down foes, however it means that you can ACTUALLY TAKE DOWN FOES again. If you specialize your build for finisher-damage, you're obviously going to be able to take down most things with these finishers in one go, but in exchange you lose the attack speed to be able to stack up that % chance towards the next finisher. A maxed out Fury alleviates the speed drop, as well as other attack speed mods, however if you build for attack speed then you lose the finisher damage and require more finishers. Alternatively, if you simply build damage, by the time the finisher goes off, the finisher will do just enough damage to actually kill them, but you're probably killing them slower than if you chose to specialize in one of the other two paths. All three possible builds increase the killing power of the Dual Daggers, however it leaves it up to personal preference how you want to build it.


++++++++++++

Alternatively, a different style of mod focused around the Syndicate Mod system could be utilized, where the % chance of finishing is changed to a resource like Justice or some such that gets stacked by landing normal dual dagger attacks and when at full stacks it charges your neck attack to stun and open them up to a finisher. However, that would require gating it behind a Syndicate, and would be more irritating to the fanbase at large.

Thoughts? Comments? Ideas? Utter idea-trashing? Post below.

Edited by Talonflight
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In my opinion, single daggers are fine, even if it is only with covert lethality. The mod with its weapon class, dagger, plays towards the assassination style of play. I do agree that dual daggers need some help. The idea on the opening post seems fine on paper, but could bring out a different issue in gameplay. Even when stealthed, using a single dagger and utilizing finishers you can go through many, many finisher animations in a room. This can become a bit tedious. Now imagine dual-dagger attack speed. Even with a low-ish chance you could probably end up in a situation where you just go from a finisher animation to the next one. That would look weird and clunky in my opinion.

Granted, I cannot offer a better alternative solution at this time. 

(Otherwise, I currently have only a single use for dual daggers. Taking them unmodded except for attack speed and combo duration for a riven unlock :satisfied:)

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On 4/4/2017 at 3:04 PM, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Or give Covert Lethality to all dagger types, single and dual. Then you can pick your flavor. Personally, I like Dual Ether Daggers and the Ceramic Dagger in terms of looks

Covert Lethality is nice, but it also makes daggers virtually useless in open combat once they've all been alerted, unless you've got a frame like Inaros or a tele-Ash, etc. Dual daggers are supposed to be better than single daggers at open combat, thats why I didn't want to simply make Covert Lethality 2.0

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50 minutes ago, Talonflight said:

Covert Lethality is nice, but it also makes daggers virtually useless in open combat once they've all been alerted, unless you've got a frame like Inaros or a tele-Ash, etc. Dual daggers are supposed to be better than single daggers at open combat, thats why I didn't want to simply make Covert Lethality 2.0

Daggers are only as bad as you make them. Covert Lethality isn't the only thing to put on them. While yes, they could use a buff to some stats to make them unique, they can still do a fair amount of DPS. Same with Machete type weapons. The only reason they suck is because the stance is trash and their stats are bottom of the barrel.

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Daggers could use a little help, but not TOO much.

Just minor stat tweaking.

Personally, I got my Sheev to easily kill a level 105 Corrupt Bombard.

I was also able to get the Rakta Dark Dagger to kill a level 105 Corrupt Bombard, but not as easily. 

Some are better than others. My most used melee is currently the Sheev, and through the power of bandaid mods, it is viable.

I'm not opposed to tweaking them, and I wouldn't mind seeing it. But at the same time, i'm not in any real hurry to push DE to do it. 

Again, some are better than others. I love my Sheev and I loved my Rakta Dark Dagger before it. 

If they buffed them, then great.

If they don't, then meh. I'll keep going the way I am now.

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1 minute ago, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

XD Glad you agree so heartily.

Single Sheev is my most used melee weapon.

I would love to have dual Sheevs lol.

I would use the hell out of them ( ;

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Just now, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

It would definitely be enjoyable to use, I do so enjoy my Sheev. Not as much as you apparently, my Sheev's in the Top 10 most used. XD

Well, it helps that my most used frame is Inaros.

His BFF is Covert Lethality.

But I still use it on other frames as well. 

I love when people question my choice of melee in public lobbies. Makes my day ( ;

Nekros or Nova Prime with a Sheev = Win by confusion.

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On 4/6/2017 at 7:55 PM, Talonflight said:

Covert Lethality is nice, but it also makes daggers virtually useless in open combat once they've all been alerted, unless you've got a frame like Inaros or a tele-Ash, etc. Dual daggers are supposed to be better than single daggers at open combat, thats why I didn't want to simply make Covert Lethality 2.0

 

On 4/6/2017 at 8:48 PM, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Daggers are only as bad as you make them. Covert Lethality isn't the only thing to put on them. While yes, they could use a buff to some stats to make them unique, they can still do a fair amount of DPS. Same with Machete type weapons. The only reason they suck is because the stance is trash and their stats are bottom of the barrel.

Covert Lethality also has a raw +100 base damage on it in addition to the auto kill finishers, so it's a pretty effective mod for both combat and finishers. They're actually not that bad for fighting with really. They have two good stances and while they might not be up there with the Dual Ichors, Galatine P, or a slide attack Atterax, both the Karyst and the Sheev have reasonably good stats. A nice Karyst Prime or Sheev Wraith could potentially put them toward the top tier, or at least as much as they can be given their limited reach.

The funny thing is, as bad of a state as machetes are in, with the Gazal they're probably still better off than dual daggers (at least against higher level armoured enemies). Dual daggers do have the better stances between the two, but there aren't any clear crit or status weapons amongst them. Wheras the Gazal is an ok slash dominant crit status hybrid with a lousy stance.

Well, it's a easier to release a new weapon (or buff an old one) than a new stance, so I'd imagine the worm will turn on that at some point. But still, it's kind of amusing that for at least once in their lives machetes aren't the worst weapon type. ;)

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a rare mod from a rare enemy isn't going to help any weapon, and they have buffed weapons before though not too frequent

 

just buff the thing. we're busy thinking up all these complicated band-aids, thinking up their stats, their drop rates, their drop tables, when all you have to do is increase some damn numbers. things like 35 base damage and 0.8 atk speed on fang prime is just pathetic. i have hammers that swing faster than that. the last thing these things need is less speed and less room for damage.

 

edit : it's actually 36 base and 1 AS wew 

Edited by TotallyLagging
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7 minutes ago, TotallyLagging said:

 things like 35 base damage and 0.8 atk speed on fang prime is just pathetic. i have hammers that swing faster than that. the last thing these things need is less speed and less room for damage.

I'd agree that buffs are in order, but the way attack speed works for melee weapons in Warframe is a little bit more complicated than that.

Hammers aren't really any faster (well, maybe, but if so, it's only because the Synoid scan hammer can kind of use Berserker unlike any of the dual daggers. ;) ), the raw "attacks per second" attack speed for melee weapons is baked into the animations, the stat listed in the arsenal is more of a percentage playback speed modifier. So it's really only useful for comparisons between two weapons using the same animations.

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Each weapon class has its own "Speed" score. The attack speed for dual daggers (especially considering they hit twice with each button press, 3 times with Sinking Talon) is inherently faster than a hammer with equal attack speed.

That said, I get that everyone loves the Sheev, but this isn't about the Sheev; current single-daggers have a bandaid mod for them that lets them be used. I'm just trying to think of some way to make Dual Daggers useful again without a total overhaul.

Cause lets face it, by the time we get an overhaul it'll be Damage 3.0 already, which could be 3 or 4 years away.

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  • 3 months later...
On 4/6/2017 at 7:55 PM, Talonflight said:

Covert Lethality is nice, but it also makes daggers virtually useless in open combat once they've all been alerted, unless you've got a frame like Inaros or a tele-Ash, etc. Dual daggers are supposed to be better than single daggers at open combat, thats why I didn't want to simply make Covert Lethality 2.0

GUYS, CHARGED ATTACKS ON DAGGERS HAVE A 100% CHANCE TO PROC SLASH.

try it yourself, build it for raw DMG, condition overload, and as much slash as possible. You will bleed high lvl enemies like there lvl 10s, don't believe me? Try it.

PS: this works on single daggers, I haven't tried it on dual daggers.

Edited by (PS4)CLASSIFIEDGTA
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6 hours ago, (PS4)CLASSIFIEDGTA said:

GUYS, CHARGED ATTACKS ON DAGGERS HAVE A 100% CHANCE TO PROC SLASH.

try it yourself, build it for raw DMG, condition overload, and as much slash as possible. You will bleed high lvl enemies like there lvl 10s, don't believe me? Try it.

PS: this works on single daggers, I haven't tried it on dual daggers.

If there is a 100% chance to proc slash, then DON'T build for Slash-damage, as the damage of a Slash-proc (or any proc for that matter) only cares about your base damage (and crits), pretty much. So, instead of adding any Slash-mods, go all out on raw damage (Primed Pressure Point and Spoiled Strike, and Riven if you have it).

Adding Slash-damage would only increase the likelyhood of a regular status-proc to become Slash-oriented. But since the charge attack gives a Slash-proc 100% of the time, that Slash-mod would be a complete waste. It would be even MORE of a waste on an elemental dagger such as the Rakta Dark Dagger, where the mod would do absolutely nothing.

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56 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

If there is a 100% chance to proc slash, then DON'T build for Slash-damage, as the damage of a Slash-proc (or any proc for that matter) only cares about your base damage (and crits), pretty much. So, instead of adding any Slash-mods, go all out on raw damage (Primed Pressure Point and Spoiled Strike, and Riven if you have it).

Adding Slash-damage would only increase the likelyhood of a regular status-proc to become Slash-oriented. But since the charge attack gives a Slash-proc 100% of the time, that Slash-mod would be a complete waste. It would be even MORE of a waste on an elemental dagger such as the Rakta Dark Dagger, where the mod would do absolutely nothing.

Well, I thought since it does those slash, adding more slash would be good.

I'll try another build, mabey raw DMG and speed? I dunno.

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