[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Quanlain]

Oh good, i was writing a topic, and it got glithced out. 
 I still have to write down a whole thread, and djust lost at least 2x times more than it currently contains. 

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/29/2017 at 8:27 PM, Marine027 said:

Only thing i can say is some visual whould be nice of how big the banish is, some impact effect or so.

That is a problem I ran across as well. When I Banish someone I can't tell if they are Banished or not sometimes

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/29/2017 at 8:35 PM, Vactro said:

Nice idea the one target banish, but don't think it'll happen :/

I don't think it will happen but it would be nice if it did

 

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/29/2017 at 8:43 PM, Genoscythe said:

As someone who liked the old limbo too (somehow) I can also only say I love the new limbo. His CC is superior and the damage scales well if you get enough enemies into the rift. His isolating skills are not as good though and I miss that. However I agree that the way banish works now is balanced and making it work so you can pull enemies into the rift while being there would be OP.

Exactly. I almost never find myself using Banish now, it would be nice if they brought it back to be a single target ability when you send someone to your plane of existence.

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/29/2017 at 8:51 PM, Skaleek said:

Limbo is great although his ability to be inside the rift is all of his survivability and reverting the ability to be in the rift while also inside a nullifer bubble hurt him for viability against high level corpus... Oh well, still love the rework personally.

Yeah. I was actually surprised at first when I saw that nullies don't effect him, but they changed it so now they do. Doesn't make sense imo, how the hell is a bunch of rich random dudes able to make a bubble which brings you from the rift to the material plane lol

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/29/2017 at 8:54 PM, PsiWarp said:

I am okay with the new Banish, since Stasis is now a thing Limbo has all the CC he needs to deal with multiple enemies.

However, I wish they would put a few short-and-sweet tips on why something doesn't work based on the situation. Like Banish, it just says "Invalid Target" when trying to cast on targets in the opposite plane, so maybe help the player out and say "Requires Target in Same Plane"? Likewise with Rift Surge, say "Requires Target in Rift".

True though that info can be found in the abilities tab. But the problem is that "invalid target"  doesn't tell you why it is an invalid target, which may be a small problem to some 

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/29/2017 at 9:29 PM, Clonmac said:

It is a good thought, but I think that would just make it more cumbersome and potentially dangerous to use. Part of what makes the new Banish so great is that I can just spam it like crazy knowing for sure what dimension I am sending my enemies to. If you make it as you suggested, you still have the problem that would essentially remove the spammability of it by making enemies bounce back and forth between dimensions if you target the wrong enemy in the wrong dimension. I often just spam the spell down a hallway sending all enemies to the rift and then preventing me from taking any fire because I am sending them to the rift before they're even in sight of me. With your suggestion, I wouldn't be able to do that because my reticle is essentially on enemies that are already in the rift and I'd just be bringing that enemies back into the material plane. Also, often times in a pinch I want to just send all enemies currently in the rift back to the material plane so that I can be safe in the rift with no other enemies. This change would make that very difficult to do because there would no doubt be more enemies in the material plane that would likely result in me just pulling more enemies into the rift which would be the opposite result that I'd want.

I understand that many would like Banish to be a bi-directional ability, but the more I've used it, the more I really do appreciate the fact that it is a uni-directional AoE ability now.

True. Implementing this ability in warframe requires a lot of thought so that it doesn't end up completely useless but also not op.

[jmthebigman]

11 minutes ago, Quanlain said:

Oh good, i was writing a topic, and it got glithced out. 
 I still have to write down a whole thread, and djust lost at least 2x times more than it currently contains. 

in the future use word or notepad or whatever text editor you have for long posts.

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/29/2017 at 8:00 PM, Trichouette said:

Unless using 25 energy instead of 100 ?

Or to target a specific bunch instead of the whole map (if you play with max range) ?

Or maybe to have an almost instant casting time instead of the very long cast of cataclysm (even with natural talent it's longer than banish) ?

I admit I tend to use cataclysm for a bit everything since limbo is an energy making machine but still I tend to rush out of the rift and simply banish everything that bother me.

Yes but it's still insane that he's able to explode a huge bunch of corpus and infected with one single key, it's like saying "pre-rework mag wasn't OP" even though she was able to destroy every corpus in a 50m radius with one key.

 

On a side note, you know that you can answer to many people in a single post right ? No need to post 4 times in a row

Yes it does use more energy but that really isn't a problem for Limbo especially since he'll get more enemies in the rift to kill thus gaining more energy than he would have by banishing (in certain situations)

Yes it has a quick casting time but that doesn't matter since you can just go to the rift and than cast Cataclysm easily without a single problem.

 

That damage does seem great but when you think about it 1. It can be comparable to Nidus and his 1st ability since both of them scale. Scaling is something more frames should get because of the extreme power  creep in warfame. Scaling is not a bad thing and it might seem op to you, but really it is something every frame should have and if you noticed in the latest updates DE has been releasing and reworking frames which all of them now SCALE: Nekros rework - scales , Nidus - scales, Octavia - scales, Limbo rework - scales. It is something DE is pushing in warframe because they know it is a very good thing and I belive the next reworks that we get (most likely Oberon or Hydroid) will also scale.

 

Yes I do know that but I am just too lazy to do so, even if it is easier

[DaftMeat]

Other suggestions have been tap 1 for AOE, hold 1 for single-target or allies-only effect.

[(PSN)Seabastion25]

On 3/29/2017 at 1:13 PM, ChameleonBro said:

So after testing Limbo for a bit more I had quite the change in thoughts. 

I was mainly disappointed in his Banish change but seeing what we got, how good it is and how Limbo works now, I am glad it is like this. Being able to Banish enemies even when in the Rift right now would be BROKEN. I have seen how ridiculously huge the AoE on Banish it can get. It can get as big as an actual Cataclysm, so yeah it would be really broken if you could banish anything regardless of what plane they are HOWEVER, it doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't be able to

DE should just make it so that it is an AoE effect when someone is in the same plane as you, and if not make it single target like the old banish, so that if someone goes in the rift they can isolate 1 target from the material plane, not an entire group.

His Rift Surge seems bugged but after seeing Brozimes review of Limbo on YouTube, it seems it is working correctly as he was able to kill enemies off a lot quicker than without using Rift Surge. Though it still doesn't do what the description says it does, and that is after killing someone damage enemies in a chain reaction.

In Conclusion, Limbo is really good, I mean REALLY good, I just think people have to play him a bit more to understand this. 

The only one reason why I think they changed it from a single target banish to a aoe banish is to help deal with the infested. Hear me out. Limbo has a hard time banishing a ancient healer or any heavy infested unit that's surround by smaller infested. How do they solve this problem give his banish an aoe. That's my opinion about it.

[Trichouette]

15 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

Scaling is not a bad thing and it might seem op to you, but really it is something every frame should have and if you noticed in the latest updates DE has been releasing and reworking frames which all of them now SCALE: Nekros rework - scales , Nidus - scales, Octavia - scales, Limbo rework - scales. It is something DE is pushing in warframe because they know it is a very good thing and I belive the next reworks that we get (most likely Oberon or Hydroid) will also scale.

There is a huge difference between "their abilities scale with enemies' level" and "their abilities deal more damage because the enemies are higher level".

 

Nidus' ability scale with stacks, it has NOTHING to do with enemies' level.

Octavia / limbo / nekros abilities scale with enemies level because

- octavia's 1 deal damage depending on the damage inflicted on her mallet with a multiplier  > higher level enemies > more damage inflicted to the mallet

- Limbo's 4 deal damage that scale on the health of the enemies in the cataclysm > higher level enemies > higher health point > higher damage

- Nekros revive enemies with their damage with a multiplier > higher level enemies > more tanky illusion that deal more damage

 

Meanwhile nidus can deal up to 100k damage by pressing 1, against lvl 2 enemies. Just because he has 100 stacks

These are not the same thing.

Also, nidus' first ability deal damage in a line that is more or less long depending on your range, limbo's ultimate blast everything in a 80m radius.

 

And if you consider nidus has "scaling abilities", then why not saying "ember has scaling abilities because her 2 increase her damage by 5" (depending on mods)

Edited March 31, 2017 by Trichouette

[bl4ckhunter]

Banish is a piece of trash as it is. Between it being aoe and not working from the rift there's not a single reason why you shouldn't simply use stasis -> cataclysm besides energy issues (which you really shouldn't have with limbo anyways), now limbo overall is a lot better now and you don't actually need banish but still, old banish was WAY better.

Edited March 31, 2017 by bl4ckhunter

[Ditto132]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

Well, my abject apologies for disgusting you. I believe there is a qualitative difference between the abilities you list and Stasis and Resonance (is it Resonance, where you have to squat to the beat?) in terms of who is deciding how I play the game, but I'm not gonna continue this argument. I've said my piece. 

 

I wasn't specifically targeting you. I quoted you to add on to what you said.
I was referring to mainly those who wanted changes due to those abilities preventing other players from contributing or killing.
You know like Mirage+Simulor, Ember speed-rushing in Extermination, Hydroid Tentacle Swarm making shooting enemies difficult so on.

Stasis and Metronome are abilities that require a lot of coordination and communication with the squad, otherwise, it would be very chaotic and outright frustrating.
Similar issues when playing a tactical first-person shooter where friendly-fire is on and your squadmate in front of you is not squatting down.

1 hour ago, Voidforged said:

Except all of the abilities mentioned above don't lock down multiple tiles at once.

There are also other abilities that can do that too.
Stasis would "fire off" when there are enough projectiles or one shot from Zarr Barrage, usually catching and killing Limbo off-guard.
And there is the Nullifier...

Ever since I main Limbo, I still think that he is not for everyone even after this rework, he is just too sophisticated and situational to play together with.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

14 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

I wasn't specifically targeting you. I quoted you to add on to what you said.

My apologies, I misinterpreted you - my bad. 

[Machayna]

Did a high level void survival for a relic run.  We went to 25 minutes I think.  I was playing a balanced limbo build because I find it fits my playstyle but the other Limbo was a max range one and was doing what you described of just nuking everything.  This is fine.....you know....to each their own.....but I had to go multiple rooms away from where he was because I kept getting kicked in and out of the rift.  I basically had no control over my own survivability.  Going into a different area of course worked but then he ended up dying alot because cataclysm doesn't kill everything.  So then had to run back to rez him and then run like mad to get away from him so that I wouldn't die.  Ultimately I'm liking the new rework and I think the scaling damage is great but getting constantly booted from the rift because there is another Limbo with a press 4 to win setup is unfortunate.

[Quanlain]

3 minutes ago, Machayna said:

Did a high level void survival for a relic run.  We went to 25 minutes I think.  I was playing a balanced limbo build because I find it fits my playstyle but the other Limbo was a max range one and was doing what you described of just nuking everything.  This is fine.....you know....to each their own.....but I had to go multiple rooms away from where he was because I kept getting kicked in and out of the rift.  I basically had no control over my own survivability.  Going into a different area of course worked but then he ended up dying alot because cataclysm doesn't kill everything.  So then had to run back to rez him and then run like mad to get away from him so that I wouldn't die.  Ultimately I'm liking the new rework and I think the scaling damage is great but getting constantly booted from the rift because there is another Limbo with a press 4 to win setup is unfortunate.

Yeah, that's what i meant by harming other's experience. Exactly that

[Quanlain]

And i've finished my post. Really sorry for screwing it in the beginning, but there it is. 

I've put quite a lot of time in investigating this rework, and tried to dig deep and use everything this rework brought to us.

Thanks to everyone who have managed to read my post all the way

[Ditto132]

56 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

My apologies, I misinterpreted you - my bad. 

No worry. Just want to point out that quoting might not alway mean to argue or counter the post.
I quote to agree, highlight some parts and to add in my opinions too.

[FriarTuck]

4 hours ago, Quanlain said:

-Saving the rift state on Limbo
Many Limbo players, including me also would want Riftwalk to pesist after Cataclysm is closed. Maybe make other Limbo's Cataclysm unaffecting your riftawalk would be good enough.

Not only when Cataclysm is closed but also wnen you come out of it. Why should i reenter Rift just to slice several "aww-again-they-are-stasised-outside-my-Cataclysm" enemies?

[Quanlain]

11 hours ago, FriarTuck said:

Not only when Cataclysm is closed but also wnen you come out of it. Why should i reenter Rift just to slice several "aww-again-they-are-stasised-outside-my-Cataclysm" enemies?

I personally think that this is a matter of time untill players will get used to it. 
However, if we will have an option to insta-riftwalk from stationary postition, cataclysm should not be a big problem.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Quanlain

[PsiWarp]

Good post Q! I agree with the Rift Walk QoL. It would be easier to make it a buff icon that shows up at the top-right with no timer, that is only affected when Limbo himself toggles it on/off by dodging, therefore allowing him to dictate and affix his own plane state at all times.

[Quanlain]

22 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Good post Q! I agree with the Rift Walk QoL. It would be easier to make it a buff icon that shows up at the top-right with no timer, that is only affected when Limbo himself toggles it on/off by dodging, therefore allowing him to dictate and affix his own plane state at all times.

Nice to see appreciation!
Let's just hope that people from up there will also find this thread actual :3

[PsiWarp]

So from messing around in the Simulacrum, I found (probably someone else has too) that status effects can proc (triggering the effect after Stasis ends), and stay procced (timer doesn't countdown) on rifted enemies during Stasis. What's amazing is that the damage per tick from Slash, Heat, Toxin, and Gas procs can continue to damage enemies even while they're frozen. Since the timer is frozen on that status effect, the damage continues infinitely.

Which means if you reliably proc with a high damage high status chance melee weapon with those status types, you can just wait for enemies to die on their own. Now this sounds like a bug but considering melee damage isn't frozen by Stasis, this is like a side effect that complements melee playstyles when using Stasis.

[felipe3402]

I Was wondering, Why not limbo can un-banish ALL enemies inside the rift holding the first ability, It's pretty annoying them rift surge banish enemies and your team struggle to kill them...

And the rift surge augment could not affect only limbo, But all of his allies get's the damage buff too.

And about the cataclysm shutting down because of a Nullifier, God this is annoying as hell.

I Remember the old cataclysm, Nullifiers could get inside of it, But not banished, And all the enemies inside the bubble doesn't get banished too.

But with the Nullifier change, The little "Osprey" that project's the null bubble could get banished inside the cataclysm, Simple because the osprey is NOT inside the Nullifier bubble.

I Understand that everything needs a counter, Or just a "thing" for deal with it a bit, But I can't play against corpus with a Limbo range build, Always appear a nullifier bubble and pew, Rip Stasis and cataclysm.