[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)psycofang]

22 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

The thing is even though it scales if the enemy has armor it won't do much at all besides maybe take out trash mobs. That is what Cataclysm can mostly do from my experiance, get rid of trash mobs, and even that requires you to have quite a few strong enemies in the Cataclysm.

Im glad a few people understand how his 4 works, like i said before, putting 10 of the same enemies in the simul without mixing around hp values creates mis-information regarding how it works on the field.

[EinheriarJudith]

2 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

~snip~

the hilarity of this is why no one can have nice things. so... because i dont "Main" him i dont understand how he plays? i clearly defined his play style which is ISOLATION. nah actually you keep playing how you play and i will keep playing all the frames because it really isnt rocket science. the only people hurting limbo atm are the fan boys. Ciao

[.Murk.]

Let me just say stasis is one of the worst team friendly abilities of this game, ie playing mirage and limbo's keep telling you to stop shooting and melee instead or playing chroma and not being able to build up fury/scorn(other cc frames can do this but not with the same range/consistency). Any gunplay is ruined...

Kuva siphons are a pain because every limbo wants to use only the brightest colors possible, and come on I like to use my rivens for highish level content aka floods but I am at the "mercy" of all these stasis limbos. It's not even like it makes it easier, a limbo can already just dash into the void meander about easily collecting all kuva without activating a single active ability reviving team mates as well. Of course they wouldn't want to do this as it is boring, but that what stasis feels like for any gun oriented players.

Stasis can have some fun solo or dedicated team play but with randoms it just ends up being a huge disruption for many, taking the fun out of the match.

[(PSN)psycofang]

13 minutes ago, Murkar said:

Stasis can have some fun solo or dedicated team play but with randoms it just ends up being a huge disruption for many, taking the fun out of the match.

 

Unfortunately this is true, limbo is disruptive to everyone not in on the master plan but hes kinda always been like that.

If you coordinate with limbo though... I have seen / done some things.

[IcicleFerret]

I've found myself avoiding using him in group missions entirely just because I don't want to be "that f*ing Limbo." I've been on the receiving end of a max range Cataclysm build during a defense mission, and honestly I could have walked away for my computer. The Limbo nuked everything, and the worst part was I couldn't find a perch on the map his bubble wouldn't cover, so while I was trying to snipe incoming enemies, my bullets would randomly miss because I happened to be caught in the bubble for the split second I pulled the trigger. Eventually I gave up and just started spamming Molecular Prime and Null Star because there was no reason to conserve energy.

I'm not mad at the Limbo player, though. He is just using the tools available to do what everyone wants to in this game: Kill lots of enemies. I'm more sad that DE couldn't see this type of abuse coming. I mean, we've seen what a pre-rework Blade Storm Ash could do. You could argue that it was up to Ash players to not spam a max range Blade Storm, but that's not fair to players that are just using the tools to their greatest advantage. If DE wants Limbo to be a team player, they should reconsider Stasis and the new Cataclysm entirely.

Edit: It's really sad that I can't use my favorite frame in group missions, and I think it's proof that there's something definitely broken about his current iteration.

Edited April 2, 2017 by IcicleFerret

[IcicleFerret]

I think it's telling that the Limbo feedback thread has twice as many pages as the Octavia feedback thread.

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

45 minutes ago, IcicleFerret said:

I think it's telling that the Limbo feedback thread has twice as many pages as the Octavia feedback thread.

Telling what? It's nothing new. Limbos a troll this, DE nerf that. Nothing new or telling here.

[SenorClipClop]

I find that in order for a Limbo to be a help to the squad, three things need to happen:

1. The Limbo player needs to know what the rest of the squad is doing.
2. The squad members need to know what Limbo is doing.
3. The Limbo player needs to know what Limbo is doing.

Unfortunately, public missions almost never see all of these conditions met. And we no strangers to powers which can interfere with other players' gameplay (Snowglobe, the new Magnetize and the old Bladestorm, for example), Limbo is unique in that pretty much all of what he does has the potential to interfere with others. He can be a huge help, but those rare conditions have to be met. Limbo has such a different way of achieving success, and it requires of his squad (and himself) a situational awareness not required of playing with (or as) any other Warframe.

The solution? Well, there's no way for us to cure trolls or bad players, but perhaps these ideas will help make those three conditions get met a little more often in PUGs:

• Play Limbo. Try him out, at least understand what he does, ideally get good with him. Understanding what the Limbo wants to do and how he'll do it can help you work around having a Limbo in your party.
• Watch Limbo. When there's one in your squad, look for those situations that the Limbo will want to take advantage of, and think about how he'll want to approach the situation. Predicting what he's going to do can really help you not get frustrated.
• Talk to Limbo. This is hard to do in a fast-paced game like Warframe, but a little bit of communication can go a long way. On multiple occasions, I've seen a Limbo become much less interfering after someone asked him to tone down on using 4, and I've even seen Limbos adapting into great supports for casters like Nova and Mag when they say they need Energy.

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 hour ago, IcicleFerret said:

I think it's telling that the Limbo feedback thread has twice as many pages as the Octavia feedback thread.

Telling of?

 

Its mostly filled with people that 

Are trying to "fix" him -make him brain dead or freakishly strong

Rework him and make him worse

People not using his tool because the admit they cant understand it

People gawking at his 4 with flawed video tests as "proof"

People trying to educate others on how to use his new tools

People trying to use him the old way after not enough time with him and whining

I hate limbo i cant understand his tools despite me never playing or reading the wiki to try and understand why i should throw my zenistar after a planned cataclysm but lets complain instead!

 

Only telling thing here is how absurd this has all gotten and im not helping i know.

[Helljack84]

So, after endless complains about AoE abilities/weapons and a few nerfs it's perfectly fine and reasonable to (re-)release two Warframes with ridiculous AoE?

 

 

 

[(PSN)psycofang]

Ive said it once and ill say it again hes always been disruptive specifically due to his 1 intrinsic mechanic : Rift.

 

You cannot keep it unique AND fix it because its always treated as its own separate area. This disrupts other players if its not planned or they dont adapt to what the limbo is doing which is easily as its annoying as it is fixable and reactable to.

His presence is both a godsend and an annoyance wether you are willing to deal with it or not determines how its received, both arent wrong though.

They indeed fixed Limbo by giving him survivability in the form of stopping enemies instead of generic armor bonus or DR.  In turn it created a compounded issue of players feeling like Limbo is controlling how they play because of stasis stopping bullets and that instant dopamine is taken away. 

Players have always hated playing with limbo, always complained and nothing has technically changed. He just now has a shiny NEW ability to complain about despite the complaints not only not being new but are easily replicated with other frames.

Theres no real way to fix Limbo which will make everyone happy. Limbo players like him being complex, Others hate said complexities. 

They fixed Limbo fine,  just not how he interacts with others which has and probably will always remain a problem.

14 minutes ago, IcicleFerret said:

Max range Cataclysm can paste every enemy in an entire tile. Have you tried it?

I have and everywhere relevant the tougher enemies are fine and its better to not pop it. 

 

I got the glory of watching fools spamming 4 from a distance only to frequently hit 4 - corrupted survives - limbo gets hit by a rocket and either they run for the hills or die instantly.

 

And i smile every single time.

[IcicleFerret]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

They fixed Limbo fine,  just not how he interacts with others which has and probably will always remain a problem.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then, because I feel Limbo's issues were just exacerbated rather than fixed.

[felipe3402]

We just need to have a option to unbanish all enemies...

Like if you hold the banish ability will unbanish all enemies inside of the rift plane.

That will remove the problems with rift surge and banish for sure.

Edited April 3, 2017 by felipe3402
More Info.

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 minute ago, IcicleFerret said:

We'll have to agree to disagree, then, because I feel Limbo's issues were just exacerbated rather than fixed.

How? Hes no longer vulnerable in the rift as many complained about. His AoE strength technically didnt change...actually it got .5% weaker since torrent i believe maxes out at around 1300% but decreases just as rapidly whereas old surge was a 10.5x boost coupled with torrent.

I agreed he still isnt team friendly, when i said fixed i specifically ment him.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

I think the Octavia vs Limbo thread sizes tell us this: Octavia is mildly interesting for 30 ranks and you know, she is a Warframe that exists. On the other hand, Limbo is a polarizing Warframe and DE managed to change him just enough to flip flop the "we love him" and "we hate him" groups, without accomplishing anything of significance. 

[PsiWarp]

Great job on the rework. The abilities feel lot stronger and gives Limbo a huge degree of freedom on how to approach enemies. That said, this iteration is focused on improving his powers but not so much his team-friendliness, which is crucial if the devs' intention is to have other players in a squad fight within both the material and Rift planes.

I strongly suggest the below features which aim to increase the fluidity of the flow of combat for Limbo and teammates alike:

• Changes for Rift Walk and Banish:
  • Portal Limit: Limit the portal to 1 active at a time. If Limbo dashes again, old portal closes while new portal appears.
    • This ensures Limbo can't create a field of portals that allies (to their annoyance) have to evade to stay on the material plane. Rift Walk is not like Titania's Dust Bloom passive, so littering portals everywhere really disrupts gameplay because of the Rift's interaction rules for weapons.
  • Plane Toggle: Shares Limbo's passive with allies that walk through the portal and when affected by Banish. This means ally players can roll or backflip to switch planes at will during the 15 seconds they have Rift Walk and the 25 (or more) seconds when they have Banish.
    • This ensures ally players decide for themselves which plane to stay in.
  • Buff Icon: Give Rift Walk its own buff icon at the top-right. If this icon is shown, it means the player is inside the rift (Limbo's icon doesn't have a timer, ally players' icons do have a timer). Show this icon in the squad list so Limbo knows who has Rift Walk, just like Banish (this information is crucial to team coordination).
  • Plane Anchoring: when Limbo and allies have either Rift Walk or Banish, change it so Banish and Cataclysm cannot forcibly switch the plane state of these players when they are targeted by those abilities.
    • This ensures Limbos cannot actively disrupt other players' gameplay by putting portals in their path, or recasting Banish and Cataclysm over and over again.
  • Tips on how to switch planes: when players have Rift Walk or Banish, add a short tip for immediate visual learning about the Rift by new or inexperience players. Ideally, a UI banner like Kuva Siphon's Transference tips that fades away after a few seconds (5 seconds or so, stop showing the tips when they roll or backflip out of the rift).
    • This serves as a short tutorial on how to use Rift Walk and Banish, since not every player knows to use roll or backflip and this is key information to know when playing with a Limbo in your squad.
    • Example text for the tips:

    • Quote

      Rift Walk or Banish

      You have entered the Rift Plane. Press [Shift] to jump back and forth between dimensions.

      You can only use weapons on enemies sharing the same dimension.

  • Adjusting the Haven Augment: with the above changes, Haven may need to be adjusted to work effectively. My suggestion is to either: a) increase the heal percentage, or b) allow players to heal each time they switch back to the Rift Plane.

With these changes I believe Limbo will have a much less disruptive impact on his team, in terms of providing control, information, and guidance on the Rift. Thank you for your consideration!

[felipe3402]

2 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Great job on the rework. The abilities feel lot stronger and gives Limbo a huge degree of freedom on how to approach enemies. That said, this iteration is focused on improving his powers but not so much his team-friendliness, which is crucial if the devs' intention is to have other players in a squad fight within both the material and Rift planes.

I strongly suggest the below features which aim to increase the fluidity of the flow of combat for Limbo and teammates alike:

• Changes for Rift Walk and Banish:
  • Portal Limit: Limit the portal to 1 active at a time. If Limbo dashes again, old portal closes while new portal appears.
    • This ensures Limbo can't create a field of portals that allies (to their annoyance) have to evade to stay on the material plane. Rift Walk is not like Titania's Dust Bloom passive, so littering portals everywhere really disrupts gameplay because of the Rift's interaction rules for weapons.
  • Plane Toggle: Shares Limbo's passive with allies that walk through the portal and when affected by Banish. This means ally players can roll or backflip to switch planes at will during the 15 seconds they have Rift Walk and the 25 (or more) seconds when they have Banish.
    • This ensures ally players decide for themselves which plane to stay in.
  • Buff Icon: Give Rift Walk its own buff icon at the top-right. If this icon is shown, it means the player is inside the rift (Limbo's icon doesn't have a timer, ally players' icons do have a timer). Show this icon in the squad list so Limbo knows who has Rift Walk, just like Banish (this information is crucial to team coordination).
  • Plane Anchoring: when Limbo and allies have either Rift Walk or Banish, change it so Banish and Cataclysm cannot forcibly switch the plane state of these players when they are targeted by those abilities.
    • This ensures Limbos cannot actively disrupt other players' gameplay by putting portals in their path, or recasting Banish and Cataclysm over and over again.
  • Tips on how to switch planes: when players have Rift Walk or Banish, add a short tip for immediate visual learning about the Rift by new or inexperience players. Ideally, a UI banner like Kuva Siphon's Transference tips that fades away after a few seconds (5 seconds or so, stop showing the tips when they roll or backflip out of the rift).
    • This serves as a short tutorial on how to use Rift Walk and Banish, since not every player knows to use roll or backflip and this is key information to know when playing with a Limbo in your squad.
    • Example text for the tips:
    •  
  • Adjusting the Haven Augment: with the above changes, Haven may need to be adjusted to work effectively. My suggestion is to either: a) increase the heal percentage, or b) allow players to heal each time they switch back to the Rift Plane.

With these changes I believe Limbo will have a much less disruptive impact on his team, in terms of providing control, information, and guidance on the Rift. Thank you for your consideration!

And sharing the "Rift Torrent" augment with allies will be a great thing tho.

[IcicleFerret]

1 minute ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

How? Hes no longer vulnerable in the rift as many complained about. His AoE strength technically didnt change...actually it got .5% weaker since torrent i believe maxes out at around 1300% but decreases just as rapidly whereas old surge was a 10.5x boost coupled with torrent.

I agreed he still isnt team friendly, when i said fixed i specifically ment him.

Limbo is a squishy frame, so like Mag or Ember he needed to be played smart. Few people wanted to play him that way. I never had an issue with vulnerability while in the rift, because I knew his limits and to not stand in the middle of my own Cataclysm. Now, he doesn't need to be played smart. He can just be a jerk to his teammates and still get 98% of the damage come end of mission. The biggest problem I had as Limbo was not with him, it was with other players' perception of him. This rework has removed his ability to troll allies by making them unable to pick up things in the rift, but has made him 10x more annoying by disabling guns and making weapons useless with just the press of a button or two. I don't call this rework an improvement to Limbo if the rest of the community still despises him.

But like I said, that is my opinion.

[Vantooth]

As many have stated, but it most said again: The new functionality of banish feels horrendously sluggish and counter-intuitive. While a part of the feeling may be because I was used to being in the rift and slowly banishing people and killing them off.

Maybe an augment could solve this if you (DE) aren't willing to change this back.

Also, the roll to enter the rift does not feel good to me. I lose a great deal of mobility (or I can still use the roll for mobility but get my squishy little self in open danger) and since I use tap sprint to roll and press sprint to keep running (else my finger hurt like crazy after 30 minutes +) it can get me in pretty dire circumstance when I try to run but don't press it long enough and go out of the rift when I didn't want to.

All in all, I think the changes are interesting but the new limbo does not feel playable to me. As fun as he sounds on paper.

[(PSN)psycofang]

33 minutes ago, IcicleFerret said:

Limbo is a squishy frame, so like Mag or Ember he needed to be played smart. Few people wanted to play him that way.

Of course, my favorite thing to do was play sniper limbo in open areas and duelist in corpus ma-i mean closed areas. But people also hated that aspect for some reason.

 

36 minutes ago, IcicleFerret said:

The biggest problem I had as Limbo was not with him, it was with other players' perception of him.

I wouldnt, half of people dont even understand half the things he does, their immediate annoyance can be likely tied to ignorance just as likely as "grief".

 

38 minutes ago, IcicleFerret said:

has made him 10x more annoying by disabling guns and making weapons useless with just the press of a button or two.

Thats easy to counter, also tbh stasis isnt really necessary in group content or well not ment to be on all the time every cast because it translates to wide wastes of energy for no real reason.

I feel like stasis was ment for his 3 to help with viral banishes and to be used on highly uncertain situations.

 

I mean i can understand people see him as a nuisance so it feels negative because people arent coordinating or cant because hes a coordination frame, i mostly solo as limbo except with friends/clan, so i can understand your issues.

 

I still feel hes fine but like you said: opinions.

 

 

[Ditto132]

55 minutes ago, IcicleFerret said:

Octavia, a brand new frame with brand new mechanics, has half the number of complaints/praise/feedback of Limbo, an old frame with only one new mechanic. I think the fact that Limbo has so much more feedback is telling that DE got something wrong. Maybe it was wrong from the outset, and this Stasis and other tweaks are just band-aids on broken limbs. I don't know.

The rework was supposed to make him a better team player, but all it did was add more problems. People complained about the lack of CC, so DE gave him some neat AoE stuff and added some effects to Cataclysm, but in my opinion they overdid it. Max range Cataclysm can paste every enemy in an entire tile. Have you tried it? I have. Tier 3 sortie defense mobs didn't stand a chance no matter how much armor they had. Maybe the damage breaks down after 60+ minutes of survival, but that's not "typical play" for most people. Enemy scaling in the game is broken anyway. But that's a different story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1

22 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

I think the Octavia vs Limbo thread sizes tell us this: Octavia is mildly interesting for 30 ranks and you know, she is a Warframe that exists. On the other hand, Limbo is a polarizing Warframe and DE managed to change him just enough to flip flop the "we love him" and "we hate him" groups, without accomplishing anything of significance. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Two major factors that I believe are due to:

• Octavia parts that have to be farmed with RNG (Systems: Lua Cache, Neuroptics: ODS Rotation C, Chassis: Lua musical puzzle), thus most likely harder to obtain.
• Octavia's Metronome doesn't force other players to "sync with the beat" and is kind of a bonus buff while Limbo's Rift mechanic forces other players to play by his Rift rules.

Octavia doesn't have any new unique and crucial mechanic, she just a typical support frame with buffs.
If you are able to play along with Octavia, you get additional bonuses, no penalty when failed to do so.
While Limbo is all about the Rift mechanic and has to play by the Rift.

 

39 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Ive said it once and ill say it again hes always been disruptive specifically due to his 1 intrinsic mechanic : Rift.

You cannot keep it unique AND fix it because its always treated as its own separate area. This disrupts other players if its not planned or they dont adapt to what the limbo is doing which is easily as its annoying as it is fixable and reactable to.

His presence is both a godsend and an annoyance wether you are willing to deal with it or not determines how its received, both arent wrong though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

13

Most players dislike playing with Limbo because they don't fully understand his playstyle and the Rift mechanic.

 

32 minutes ago, felipe3402 said:

We just need to have a option to unbanish all enemies...

Like if you hold the banish ability will unbanish all enemies inside of the rift plane.

That will remove the problems with rift surge and banish for sure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That can be a good QoL idea, but depending on the situation, holding the key might be slow.

 

7 minutes ago, Vantooth said:

As many have stated, but it most said again: The new functionality of banish feels horrendously sluggish and counter-intuitive. While a part of the feeling may be because I was used to being in the rift and slowly banishing people and killing them off.

Maybe an augment could solve this if you (DE) aren't willing to change this back.

Also, the roll to enter the rift does not feel good to me. I lose a great deal of mobility (or I can still use the roll for mobility but get my squishy little self in open danger) and since I use tap sprint to roll and press sprint to keep running (else my finger hurt like crazy after 30 minutes +) it can get me in pretty dire circumstance when I try to run but don't press it long enough and go out of the rift when I didn't want to.

All in all, I think the changes are interesting but the new limbo does not feel playable to me. As fun as he sounds on paper.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I suggest that you change your option to use sprint toggle instead so that you just need to tap the sprint key.
Also separating sprint and roll would be better.
Try it out it, it might work out better for you.
The Rift Dash is pretty fluid most of the time, and only frustrating when you wanted to traverse between Rift and Material plane on the spot such as standing on some tall and small platform.

[Vantooth]

59 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

I suggest that you change your option to use sprint toggle instead so that you just need to tap the sprint key.
Also separating sprint and roll would be better.
Try it out it, it might work out better for you.
The Rift Dash is pretty fluid most of the time, and only frustrating when you wanted to traverse between Rift and Material plane on the spot such as standing on some tall and small platform.

Toggle sprint, that's what I meant but I forgot how it was called exactly. I see how it could lead to confusion.

I'll trying playing around with key bindings again and see if I can find something smooth enough. Thanks.

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 hour ago, Ditto132 said:

Most players dislike playing with Limbo because they don't fully understand his playstyle and the Rift mechanic.

Ive said this also, quite a lot really. People just dont want to change or adapt.

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[.Murk.]

6 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

 

Unfortunately this is true, limbo is disruptive to everyone not in on the master plan but hes kinda always been like that.

If you coordinate with limbo though... I have seen / done some things.

He was not as bad before as he had many reasons to not just leave giant cataclysms around since it would likely get him or the objective killed, and his cataclysm would not get spread around like a plague, plus you could shoot enemies inside the rift(which yeah you still can but every limbo LOVES stasis). It was very manageable. 

If you join a random game and limbo is there your coordination is limited to melee/power spam everything, it feels like a sortie condition you had no warning for but instead of additional difficulty you get additional boredom. Also the lack of satisfying death animations upon kill removes the perk of knowing an enemy is dead from a visual standpoint, and looks kind of lame.

(ps really? "master" plan? It seems like a pretty lazy one to me...)

Ive said this also, quite a lot really. People just dont want to change or adapt.

Your right people don't want to have to bring a stasis limbo compliant build/frame to every match on the off chance he is there, and even when you understand him it does not help with a multitude of different playstyles.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Murkar

[(PSN)psycofang]

13 minutes ago, Murkar said:

ps really? "master" plan? It seems like a pretty lazy one to me...

 

Thats what i get for joking on the internet.

14 minutes ago, Murkar said:

Your right people don't want to have to bring a stasis limbo compliant build/frame to every match on the off chance he is there, and even when you understand him it does not help with a multitude of different playstyles.

Bringing a melee weapon isnt hard, it literally hard counters stasis issues. I also said its disruptive and quite frankly no idea why it stops bullets or who didnt realise this would become an issue.

They had to have known and ignored it or assumed players would adjust. I get hes disruptive but almost every warframe is disruptive to others WoF ember, low level MaimNox, mirage, everyone a cut scene ash, die as the spawn Saryn, im killing all your damage avalanche frost yadda, im preventing kills sandstorm inaros/zephyr yadda.

Zenistar being intrusive as balls (i use it all the time)