[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[EinheriarJudith]

8 minutes ago, Venule said:

Despite my protests against Limbo earlier in this thread, I played him in a few missions as I had to finish getting him to level 30 anyway. While it was kind of fun to be able to cheese levels like that and finish one wave of Akkad in 3 uses of Cataclysm, it's really not fair to your team. I don't feel the damage necessarily is a problem. If anything, it could be tuned down a bit, but I think the bigger problem is that he can refresh his energy. It does that much damage and refunds energy per kill for all the enemies you have inside it. An oversight like that, when I think about it, doesn't seem like it was DE's intention. 

 

If Cataclysm itself stops refunding energy per kill (removing the interaction with Limbo's passive) it would be fine. The fact he can spam it at no cost is the problem.

i was soloing akkad with limbo after doing some rounds on saryn. i spec for low duration, good range and some strength, with the rift torrent augment i was over 1k damage bonus i didnt need to spam cata because anything that came in got destroyed by my gun. also as you said the energy return is crazy. i never ran out

Edited April 5, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[Luzzu]

6 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i was soloing akkad with limbo after doing some rounds on saryn. i spec for low duration, good range and some strength, with the rift torrent augment i was over 1k damage bonus i didnt need to spam cata because anything they came in got destroyed by my gun. also as you said the energy return is crazy. i never ran out

Yeah, that's the ridiculous bit. Any frame could solo whatever mission they wanted if they got Limbo's energy returns. If Valkyr had a passive like that, she would literally be in god mode all the time. If Saryn had a passive like that, the infinite viral/toxin/corrosive procs would end enemies before they even got near. Etc, etc. 

 

If Limbo were a support frame with a support kit that got energy refunds based on that support play style, maybe it'd work. But giving energy refunds on a damage/utility frame is asking for balance issues, as we are now seeing. I wouldn't have a problem with Cataclysm even as it is now with its high scaling damage if Limbo couldn't do it for free. I didn't even need to pick up energy orbs and I never went below 300 energy.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Venule

[DinendalMinyatur]

4 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

he was not in serious need of CC the rift is the most powerful CC in the entire game. what he did need was survivability which they could have done differently they didnt need to stack CC on top of CC to do that. they could simply have lowered enemy accuracy to limbo while they and him are in the rift and they could have also gave him damage reduction for being in the rift.

I dont really agree with rift being a reliable CC. Before pre-rework casting cataclysm on high lvl missions was a death sentence. Even you stand outside cataclysm to kill a group of enemies. Just a stray bullet one shots you. Some people liked playing an assassin, picking off enemies one by one but Imo it was pretty inefficent in a horde-shooter game. Most effective play in high levels were either sortie defense-rescue or a high level mobile defense where you cast a small cata bubble on target which was very boring for me

Personally, just damage reduction or lowered accuracy is just bland to my taste. I find stasis as a really cool ability.

Like I said, each to their own.

 

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 hour ago, Murkar said:

reducing cataclysms range seems like it would fix a lot with limbo right now maybe buff it a bit and remove mods affecting it, or a base amount cut

But thats screwing my play ground/rift torrent builds by reducing its range.

 

Only buff thatll help is to prevent it from shrinking...kind of.

[.Murk.]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

But thats screwing my play ground/rift torrent builds by reducing its range.

 

Only buff thatll help is to prevent it from shrinking...kind of.

It would still be very usable, and it just wouldn't be anywhere near as disruptive or overpowered.

I agree the shrinking needs to go but only with a range reduction.

[(PSN)psycofang]

35 minutes ago, Murkar said:

It would still be very usable, and it just wouldn't be anywhere near as disruptive or overpowered.

I agree the shrinking needs to go but only with a range reduction.

I play solo as limbo because i hate everyone crying about their personal dopamine needs instead of worrying about the success of the team.

 

Id like the range to stay as is and just stop Stasis from affecting allies but hold the damage like with mind control/parasite link etc.

I need tge range to properly articulate my bs on every enemy there, if it shrinks thats more enemies who will stop outside his 4 and severly damage his rift torrent augment.

So I'll stay in fissures/Mot/ODD(S) just me and my cat.

 

Maybe my friends who love limbo shenanigans.

 

Or LoR(N) for Limbo shenanigans.

 

But Tl:Dr im horridly against this notion.

Edited April 5, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[Ditto132]

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

again he isnt creating a new dimension. he is banishing to an alternate dimension. it is not 4D or 6D it is an alternate plane of the existing dimension.

Limbo is much like a doorway he can move between it and manipulate it by moving others back and forth through it. he is not a time lord. Dio does not create a new dimension where time is stopped he changes the time in an area where the rules of time have stopped. that xmen video someone put up some pages back explains this well. that guy wasnt controling the dimension he was controlling time in the current space. it would take an unfathomable amount of energy to do both.

 

 

 

 

I believe you still don't understand Spacetime...

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

the core of the rework is stasis they had to put rift walk somewhere which is the result of making space for stasis.

Maybe you didn't read old posts about Limbo, where people talking about Banish(1), Rift Walk(2), and Cataclysm(4) being the same thing(traversing between Rift and Material plane) and that Rift Surge(3) should be his passive when in the Rift and benefits share-able with teammates that are in the Rift.
That is one of the main reasons to replace Rift Walk with Rift Dash.
Rift Walk was initially replaced with Rift Dash not because of Stasis. Stasis is the addition which becomes the core due to synergy.

1 hour ago, DinendalMinyatur said:

Well yeah I'm as much as a fan of spacetime geek stuff like @Ditto132 I see no problem with stasis. (Edit: I meant as he having stasis as his power. On the other hand stasis creates some problems with teammates of Limbo)

He doesnt create a new dimension, he is somewhat in control of that dimension as " Master of The Rift"

But each to their own of course

However, as gameplay wise, Limbo as a squishy frame was in serious need of CC. He was the only one without some good cc before rework I believe

It can be stasis or some other power that grants CC. It doesn't matter. This rework caused problems yes but also gave Limbo a good cc skill.

 

 

 

 

Stasis is especially problematic for teammates who prefer to use guns.
But I still find Zephyr's Tornado and Inaros's Sandstorm more disruptive, except for AOE weapons, guns that require aiming are as good as useless.
At least Stasis still allow for melee kills and the enemies are all not moving and not flying around in the air where melee can't reach.

59 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

he was not in serious need of CC the rift is the most powerful CC in the entire game. what he did need was survivability which they could have done differently they didnt need to stack CC on top of CC to do that. they could simply have lowered enemy accuracy to limbo while they and him are in the rift and they could have also gave him damage reduction for being in the rift.

 

 

 

 

48 minutes ago, DinendalMinyatur said:

I dont really agree with rift being a reliable CC. Before pre-rework casting cataclysm on high lvl missions was a death sentence. Even you stand outside cataclysm to kill a group of enemies. Just a stray bullet one shots you. Some people liked playing an assassin, picking off enemies one by one but Imo it was pretty inefficent in a horde-shooter game. Most effective play in high levels were either sortie defense-rescue or a high level mobile defense where you cast a small cata bubble on target which was very boring for me

Personally, just damage reduction or lowered accuracy is just bland to my taste. I find stasis as a really cool ability.

Like I said, each to their own.

 

 

 

 

The Rift mechanic itself cannot be consider as Crowd-Control(CC), just like how being invisible is not considered as CC.
You can still be killed by enemies in the same plane and you can still die from getting shot at while you are invisible.
Limbo uses Stasis to control the crowd that are in the Rift to survive, just like Loki uses Radial Disarm to preventing the crowd from shooting.

Lowered enemy accuracy... I wonder how many players used EMP Aura...
I lost count on how many times I died due to stray bullets from Moa, Detron crewman and heavy gunner.
Damage reduction... I think that players would prefer to kill the enemies ASAP or use CC ability. Personally, I feel that damage reduction would be more suitable for tank.

Most squishy frames survive by using abilities such as Decoy, Invisibility, Silence, Blessing, Chaos, Absorb, Hall of Mirrors and so on, not by their passives.
Pre-rework, there was not much that Limbo could do to survive except to rely staying in the Rift and banishing enemies one at a time and making sure to kill them before they recover.

Personally, I find Stasis synergize very well and enjoyable when playing solo.
In public, other players would just melee them or something deactivate Stasis with their bullets or a Zarr's Barrage and disrupt Limbo enjoyment.

I understand that, I don't blame them. I mean, why wait for bullets to hit them later when you can just kill them right away. Even Limbo using Stasis to set up shots is slow in Survival, but it is enjoyable.
Same reason, why bother killing all the enemies with headshots or stealth-kill them in an Exterminate mission when you can just get it done and over with, using Ember's WoF, Mirage+Simulor or any effective AOE weapons such as Tonkor.

We should thank DE for this Limbo's rework.
Stasis and Rift Surge got good synergy and enjoyable. I just dislike players spamming Catalysm, not really the playstyle of Limbo.
Personally, I find the initial Rift Surge creating mini Cataclysm would be very disruptive and uncontrollable. 

[.Murk.]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

But Tl:Dr im horridly against this notion.

Would it really be that bad if enemies had to run a little further to get to you? If so please explain.

[(PSN)psycofang]

Just now, Murkar said:

Would it really be that bad if enemies had to run a little further to get to you? If so please explain.

Most enemies have guns which as soon as they LoS you rift walk  or no theyll stop in front of it shooting at you fruitlessly. Especially the corpus who love stopping short of cataclysm and start being a stupid bursa slamming in front of it but cant reach me.

 

So i have to regroup, leave the rift, 2-1-slide-3-1xN to circumvent the nerf to my range. Not getting enough bonus power because nerfed range = rift torrent has a very good chance of sucking vs everything including infested because the real mvps of the factions are all slow moving passive hp/damage sponges who shoot/breath ISI 32 Javaline missiles.

 

Nerfing range = i lose just enough control to make his 4 and his augment nearly pointless. May as well juat viral banish and Gas lesion my way through everyone.

 

[.Murk.]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Nerfing range = i lose just enough control to make his 4 and his augment nearly pointless. May as well juat viral banish and Gas lesion my way through everyone.

a few ai tweaks and a tweak to the augment could fix that though.

[(PSN)psycofang]

Just now, Murkar said:

a few ai tweaks and a tweak to the augment could fix that though.

By that in itself requires the AI to be stupid and get too close to someone despite having a gun. Its technically nonsensical to do that.

Messing with the aug is dangerous considering its % based. Limbo can already shred bosses in vanilla form and 2.0 form extrapolates its effects by purposefully using stasis on targets not the boss them burning the boss down due to a massive power boost from generally 6+ enemies who you are purposefully not killing.

 

Kala de thayme in sortie for example gets burned alive by new Limbo by freezing the roller balls and activating growing power/steel charge then shredding kala repeatedly while ignoring mechanics.

 

 

[.Murk.]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

By that in itself requires the AI to be stupid and get too close to someone despite having a gun. Its technically nonsensical to do that.

So they are not stupid already when the first hundred bullets didn't affect the bubble and they keep shooting it? Enemies will already move up on you when you hide behind cover why is this any different?

Edited April 6, 2017 by Murkar

[(PSN)psycofang]

6 minutes ago, Murkar said:

So they are not stupid already when the first hundred bullets didn't affect the bubble and they keep shooting it?

They arent designed to dynamically tell the difference which coding such a thing could be a nightmare and/or ruin aggro deflection abilities like molt or hall of mirrors.

They arent taking advantage of their range anymore which in a video game is something you want to avoid.

 

Coding them to walk closer to cataclysm is the same as making someone with a rifle get roughly in melee range of the target they are trying to shoot. Itll make their AI behavior worse and easier to CC/manipulate because it wont singularly effect Limbo but universally effect all frames which further jacks up certain frame power levels (sleep equinox into CL maim nuke or weaken a frame further i.e. hall of mirrors is pointless).

Tweaking AI behavior is pretty difficult and dynamic sensory is definitely something most games cant do even with the money to try and back it.

Edited April 6, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[.Murk.]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Tweaking AI behavior is pretty difficult and dynamic sensory is definitely something most games cant do even with the money to try and back it.

So "if player is in the void then get closer" is too complicated and universal? Seems very doable and specific to me... They already move closer to targets behind cover and that is what cataclysm is essentially.

[(PSN)psycofang]

9 minutes ago, Murkar said:

So "if player is in the void then get closer" is too complicated and universal? Seems very doable and specific to me... They already move closer to targets behind cover and that is what cataclysm is essentially.

 

Its subject to high manipulation and again causes enemies to not take advantage of their range. Which is no different than making everyone a butcher at that point.

 

It makes the AI objectively worse than they already are, the point of range is to deny an enemy the safety of their hiding spots/vantage points this goes for both player and AI. To make gun users "get closer to the rift" is to make them not take advantage of their weapons.

Also in a group problems start to arise with AI behavior.

 

If target is in the rift what then? Get closer and what?

Keep shooting? Stop shooting? At what radius? Too small and its manipulated, too large and it clashes with LoS aggro causing mobs to keep shooting or every in said range suddenly stops simultaneously?

What about players outside saud range? They can freely pick off enemies from a distance since Limbo specific coding has a high chance to turn him into a disable beacon. If it doesnt work then we are back to square 1.

 

Further more behavior concerning AI sensory since Limbo is still visible and AI stop shooting resulting in him either having to leave the area to be safe enough to use his 1 or soley use cataclysm since they approach its range on purpose.

 

This can also negatively affect the team since they are being ignored and now all the majority of faction enemies are bum rushing to Limbo because if hes in the rift "get closer".

This also requires further behavioural scripts to combat others just picking them off.

It goes on and on.

[(PSN)scinut71]

Any news about not being able to rift companions client bug being looked at?

[.Murk.]

@(PS4)psycofangSorry I guess I needed to be a little more specific... but hey I should have said cataclysm.

So basically agro would function the same as it does now but when an enemy chooses to shoot limbo or other targets inside of cataclysm, said enemy moves into to cataclysm range to attack the target as it would normally would.

This is basically in the game already in the form of when a target(ie you) is hiding behind cover, the enemy will pursue the target behind said cover.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Murkar

[(PSN)psycofang]

55 minutes ago, Murkar said:

Sorry I guess I needed to be a little more specific... but hey I should have said cataclysm.

So basically agro would function the same as it does now but when an enemy chooses to shoot limbo or other targets inside of cataclysm, said enemy moves into to cataclysm range to attack the target as it would normally would.

This is basically is in the game already in the form of when a target(ie you) is hiding behind cover, the enemy will pursue the target behind said cover.

So basically a fly trap aoe with at least a 120% aggro modifier or at best/broken +400% because enemies are effectively walking to their deaths.

 

Something about that sounds...busted and neutralizes the need for his 1-3.

Edited April 6, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[.Murk.]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

So basically a fly trap aoe with at least a 120% aggro modifier or at best/broken +400% because enemies are effectively walking to their deaths.

Something about that sounds...busted.and neutralizes and need for his 1-3.

I said nothing about increased aggro bud, where did you even come up with that? When you take cover in the game do all enemies in the surrounding area suddenly seek you out? No just the ones interested in you in the first place or anything aware of your presence that does not have a higher aggro target at the moment.

While protecting a objective with 4 as well spreading the rift out from there initially, your 1 and 3 would be used to effectively spread the rift around outside your cataclysm range(which would build up your rift torrent btw) while maintaining the cc with 2, then you could setup a bunch of powerful shots and resume and pause again as you watch all the enemies die.

Why would you not use your abilities?

[(PSN)psycofang]

10 minutes ago, Murkar said:

I said nothing about increased aggro bud, where did you even come up with that?

 

Sorry i mistook "Limbo enters rift get closer-Cmd" as an aggro adjustment-correction.

 

Even then it still negatively impacts rift torrent and buffing rift torrent is not something you want to play with, on top of the fact that since he cant use range mods (no point in increasing banish range since his 3 and 2 can create viral banishes) this jacks up how high a single modifier change on torrent could unbalanced limbo -read the kala de thayme explanation-.

 

That ore they rework rift torrent because a range capped cataclysm is pretty small as is at max rank and you cant force enemies into the cataclysm to jack up your damage. 

If they dont change it then theyll need to scale up the value of each enemy in the rift which at 30% is pretty vicious itself only because you can trap so many in there.

That and in the end its interrupting 1 of the reasons i like limbo in the first place. If Cata gets range capped ill just go max range gas Saryn.

 

 

 

 

[LeakingAmps]

As someone who's played Limbo quite a lot in the past, here's my take on the rework:

His 1 should work, regardless of current plane. He's a master of the rift, right? Doesn't really feel like it if I have to roll twice to banish an enemy. Also, the knockdown is useless now, because it only knocks them down for the time it takes you to get back into the rift, and not much longer. In addition, Limbo is a fragile frame. Leaving the rift is usually death. Making him leave the rift for every banish is absurd.

His 2 needs to broadcast the fact that it's active. Not just on enemies (though that needs to be more obvious), but on the space itself.

His 4's new potential range is great.... but also shrinks way too much over the duration of the ability.

His dash actually made me both happy and unhappy. Having the plane change bound to a non-ability key was a clever solution, but it took away an important movement option, and his dash doesn't function the same as rolls do. He cannot fire while dashing, and nor can the dash be canceled by other animations. The rift hole is a really good way to accidentally rift your whole squad without anyone noticing, and not being able to use shift to move around (remember: leaving the rift is death) hurts Limbo's mobility. It also makes it increasingly easy to accidentally un-rift yourself by trying to roll, because since no other frame binds an ability to movement keys, it's easy to forget Limbo does.

 

Ups and Downs, not 100% thrilled about the rework, and will probably be playing Limbo less now, but it wasn't a disaster either. That said, even fixing just his 1 would change this completely. I'd be willing to work around the other stuff if banishing enemies wasn't as clunky as it is now.

[CommanderSwift]

So, I've recently built Limbo for the first time, to explore him after the rework. For the most part I like it. However, there is one thing that irks me: Limbo's banish, particularly, how it impacts newer players.

As someone who certainly isn't new, (I'm MR19, well on my way to 20, with over 4000 hours logged)  I figured out how to get in and out of the Rift pretty easily; it's integral to my kit, after all. However, something I've noticed is that newer players (for example, someone under MR10) or players who have never seen or fought alongside a Limbo, are pretty much left in the dark by DE on how to get in and out of the rift. As far as I know, there isn't any hints from, perhaps, the Lotus, which explains what's going on when you get banished. I suggest that something like this is added, so that newer players, or inexperienced players, are less irritated by not being able to smack anything in the face for no discernible reason.

[THeMooN85]

Can't you just tell those new players what to do? Why the game have to do everything for you?

Don't be lazy, don't be uncommunicative, HELP those new players :)

[Nyaa314]

9 minutes ago, Zoroarkmaster65 said:

newer players are pretty much left in the dark by DE on

Mostly everything. Googling is a necessary skill for any new Warframe player.

On the topic, banish and rift surge seem unnecessary. Banish is hard to use and rift surge confuses even me as Limbo. If you somehow ended up in pug with limbo, tell them they can melee stasised enemies, keep stasis on, use cataclysm as cc. If pugs tell you not to use stasis and you respect their opinion, just blow everyone up with cataclysm.

[main_antagonist]

I was playing Limbo as a client just now, a New Loka assassination squad of eximus Ancients turned up and my powers didn't work on them figured I'd report it here!